I have a tiny bit of interest in this game since this seems like the only old school-like MMO on the horizon. That being said, I still hold doubts it will be the savior of the genera, but we shall see.
i was hyped when it was first talked about, then as the years went on with the same speech " better late and good, then rushed and bad " i lost interest waiting. if it comes out great if not no lose to me.
you can only " take your time getting it right " for so many years before you got to wonder, if/when the game is released will their be yearly X pacs, or will they also be 2+ years got get them right too.
The thing about taking a mmorpg to the next level has hardly anything to do with the engine. My fave and imo the best designed mmorpg is FFXI,designed for the paltry PS2.More classes,tons of player diversity,no hand holding,you have to learn your classes and your world,nothing is a simple marker holding your hand.Sub class system,again the best design for classes to date,until someone thinks of something better. You don't need to work with any Unity devs or fancy game engines to pull off what i consider good game design. I want to have to discover think somewhat of a challenge versatility depth in all systems,including quests. a place to call home,food and drink NOTHING automated,no auto travel or auto offline leveling crap.
All doable within even aged old engines.All i need a new engine for is to make the game look nice,bring out the detail in the textures/models/meshes.
I don't like seeing games give me a zone that is all blue or all white,give the worlds/zones some natural color,make them look plausibly real.
"Grouping"this is an important topic that really doesn't care at all about game engines.
5+ years ago that was all i heard from every poster,every corner,gameplay >graphics. So yeah ,i want to hear about how a game is going to be designed to bring out the best a mmo+rpg can offer,that DOES NOT mean...."we have RAIDING"..."we have DUNGEONS".."we have LOOT",that kind of talk does not persuade my interest at all.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
I beta tested Vanguard, didn't think it was so bad. Played at launch too of course. I believe it got rushed out though which is a shame.
Great game design, but bad coding.
Did it really have bad coding though? or was it due to what bng said? I believe it is pretty well known that the plug was pulled so they had little funds and had to push the game out early.
It was both. The bad coding was a direct result of being rushed out before it was ready. All I meant was that the game design was ahead of its time, but there were bugs. Im not meaning any insult to the coders, but it was buggy.
People only grunt at unity because they see the games that regular people make with unity label on it.
Pantheon team has yet to show any evidence they are not just "regular" people as well.
Their game dev. history at least hints at it.
Hmm, Vanguard you mean? Doomed for sure then.
Talk is cheap, I'll believe in Unity miracles when I get to see them in action.
Nothing shown so far has been any great revelation, maybe one day, say in "18 more months?"
Playing the vanguard card holds zero weight anymore to me. Considering the story behind the failure of vanguard is well known as the fact that Microsoft ditched the project and the team had to scramble for funding to launch the game. It was rushed because of corporate entities. Not the inability of the devs
Someone didn't do their homework
Someone doesnt know the story behind the rushed release
Edit: if you know otherwise then please bring it to my attention. I'll gladly swallow what I said.
Everyone knows of the rushed release. Everyone. It is also known by everyone that using UE2 was a technical mistake that not rushing it would have done nothing to fix.
The fact that they were able to eventually fix the bugs disproves your position. Yes, more time literally was enough to fix the problems.
The thing about taking a mmorpg to the next level has hardly anything to do with the engine. My fave and imo the best designed mmorpg is FFXI,designed for the paltry PS2.More classes,tons of player diversity,no hand holding,you have to learn your classes and your world,nothing is a simple marker holding your hand.Sub class system,again the best design for classes to date,until someone thinks of something better. You don't need to work with any Unity devs or fancy game engines to pull off what i consider good game design. I want to have to discover think somewhat of a challenge versatility depth in all systems,including quests. a place to call home,food and drink NOTHING automated,no auto travel or auto offline leveling crap.
All doable within even aged old engines.All i need a new engine for is to make the game look nice,bring out the detail in the textures/models/meshes.
I don't like seeing games give me a zone that is all blue or all white,give the worlds/zones some natural color,make them look plausibly real.
"Grouping"this is an important topic that really doesn't care at all about game engines.
5+ years ago that was all i heard from every poster,every corner,gameplay >graphics. So yeah ,i want to hear about how a game is going to be designed to bring out the best a mmo+rpg can offer,that DOES NOT mean...."we have RAIDING"..."we have DUNGEONS".."we have LOOT",that kind of talk does not persuade my interest at all.
People only grunt at unity because they see the games that regular people make with unity label on it.
Pantheon team has yet to show any evidence they are not just "regular" people as well.
Their game dev. history at least hints at it.
Hmm, Vanguard you mean? Doomed for sure then.
Talk is cheap, I'll believe in Unity miracles when I get to see them in action.
Nothing shown so far has been any great revelation, maybe one day, say in "18 more months?"
Playing the vanguard card holds zero weight anymore to me. Considering the story behind the failure of vanguard is well known as the fact that Microsoft ditched the project and the team had to scramble for funding to launch the game. It was rushed because of corporate entities. Not the inability of the devs
Someone didn't do their homework
Someone doesnt know the story behind the rushed release
Edit: if you know otherwise then please bring it to my attention. I'll gladly swallow what I said.
It's obvious you're looking forward to this game. I can appreciate your fandom even if it's more so cognitive dissonance. @Blueturtle13 is a talented game developer with a lot of experience. Judging by your responses it's safe to say you're not. He is absolutely right. I have nothing against Brad and wish him luck. But Vanguard's failure was due to the mismanagement from Brad. The decisions that plagued Vanguard were made long before Microsoft had a hand in it. Scapegoating MS doesn't change the facts.
People only grunt at unity because they see the games that regular people make with unity label on it.
Pantheon team has yet to show any evidence they are not just "regular" people as well.
Their game dev. history at least hints at it.
Hmm, Vanguard you mean? Doomed for sure then.
Talk is cheap, I'll believe in Unity miracles when I get to see them in action.
Nothing shown so far has been any great revelation, maybe one day, say in "18 more months?"
Playing the vanguard card holds zero weight anymore to me. Considering the story behind the failure of vanguard is well known as the fact that Microsoft ditched the project and the team had to scramble for funding to launch the game. It was rushed because of corporate entities. Not the inability of the devs
Someone didn't do their homework
Someone doesnt know the story behind the rushed release
Edit: if you know otherwise then please bring it to my attention. I'll gladly swallow what I said.
Idk this May have had something to do with things...
“One of the Vanguard developers commented on something extremely interesting: McQuaid was addicted to narcotics and only worked on the game for fifteen minutes, which probably caused the game to crash and burn until SOE nabbed it.”
I’m not posting this to dis the dude. It is what it is. And yet here he is again. Even tho I don’t like the game he’s making, I’m pulling for him to get it done.
There is no fundamentally out of the box mainstream engine for making an MMO like that any ways. There are some engines that sell themselves as such, but none have particularly panned out.
Studios are always going to have to solve these problems, how their own servers need to manage content and what the actual architecture is going to be like. There are some generic solutions, and many have built packages around such things, but none are ever a perfect fit for any project.
The choice of a specific engine matters in so far that you have to account for the skill set of your team. If you do not have strong network programmers, then you should keep in mind the use of any engine that has more well documented networking solutions to draw from or that have less hoops to jump through. Many in-house engines made are the product of this, taking basic shells for an engine that a studio then builds out to fulfill the necessary tasks as they develop the title and it's scope.
Unity could work, if you stripped it down in such a manner, but then you might as well start with a more basic engine and just build up from there without stripping things out and having to deal with potential compatibility issues. It is convenient if the engine already has a bulk of components that will work, and you have the skill set and opportunity to focus on rewriting only specific elements. But this requires those skill sets which is not always available, especially with roles like good network programmers always being on the rare side (because honestly, if a programmer is good at network architecture then they are probably working for enterprise software where they will get paid more).
Can we please not rehash the drug thing and throw it back in his face? That was a long time ago and we don't need to win an argument with some fanboy who's throwing out crazy sauce talk. Take the high road. Choosing Unity for an MMO is enough of a head scratcher on its own.
I'm yet to think of a Unity MMO that doesn't have performance problems or designs influenced by engine limitations. If there are some out there I'd like to know so I can check it out. How Vanguard worked is irrelevant. How does Unity do with MMOs is relevant. I just don't get it unless they're rewriting major chunks of the engine itself.
Yep it is a head scratcher. I am guessing though it is a time & money thing combined with the small size of the team and the fact that some devs have good experience with unity already.
We are talking about some experienced devs, so you would expect them to know the limitations of an engine and know if it is going to be a hindrance. I'm guessing they believe it can be worked out and anything that needs to be customized, can be.
They are certainly customizing one thing at least which is the shadow system. You can see it in a stream with CohhCarnage. One of the devs working on the game explains a bit about the system.
Post edited by Graveblade on
Started playing mmorpg's in 1996 and have been hooked ever since. It began with Kingdom of Drakkar, Ultima Online, Everquest, DAoC, WoW...
There is no fundamentally out of the box mainstream engine for making an MMO like that any ways. There are some engines that sell themselves as such, but none have particularly panned out.
Studios are always going to have to solve these problems, how their own servers need to manage content and what the actual architecture is going to be like. There are some generic solutions, and many have built packages around such things, but none are ever a perfect fit for any project.
The choice of a specific engine matters in so far that you have to account for the skill set of your team. If you do not have strong network programmers, then you should keep in mind the use of any engine that has more well documented networking solutions to draw from or that have less hoops to jump through. Many in-house engines made are the product of this, taking basic shells for an engine that a studio then builds out to fulfill the necessary tasks as they develop the title and it's scope.
Unity could work, if you stripped it down in such a manner, but then you might as well start with a more basic engine and just build up from there without stripping things out and having to deal with potential compatibility issues. It is convenient if the engine already has a bulk of components that will work, and you have the skill set and opportunity to focus on rewriting only specific elements. But this requires those skill sets which is not always available, especially with roles like good network programmers always being on the rare side (because honestly, if a programmer is good at network architecture then they are probably working for enterprise software where they will get paid more).
Any company accepting an out-of-the-box solution for an MMORPG is also accepting the design decisions made by the developers of that layer. For instance, if you wanted a different container system, or allow different pieces of armor to 'overlap', you've got to get out the DIY hammer. The MMORPG tool market was already a morass of confusing options in 2002-2003, I can attest to that. Today... sheesh.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
People only grunt at unity because they see the games that regular people make with unity label on it.
Pantheon team has yet to show any evidence they are not just "regular" people as well.
Their game dev. history at least hints at it.
Hmm, Vanguard you mean? Doomed for sure then.
Talk is cheap, I'll believe in Unity miracles when I get to see them in action.
Nothing shown so far has been any great revelation, maybe one day, say in "18 more months?"
Playing the vanguard card holds zero weight anymore to me. Considering the story behind the failure of vanguard is well known as the fact that Microsoft ditched the project and the team had to scramble for funding to launch the game. It was rushed because of corporate entities. Not the inability of the devs
Someone didn't do their homework
Someone doesnt know the story behind the rushed release
Edit: if you know otherwise then please bring it to my attention. I'll gladly swallow what I said.
It's obvious you're looking forward to this game. I can appreciate your fandom even if it's more so cognitive dissonance. @Blueturtle13 is a talented game developer with a lot of experience. Judging by your responses it's safe to say you're not. He is absolutely right. I have nothing against Brad and wish him luck. But Vanguard's failure was due to the mismanagement from Brad. The decisions that plagued Vanguard were made long before Microsoft had a hand in it. Scapegoating MS doesn't change the facts.
Wait? Blue Turtle is a game developer that's really cool. What games has he worked on. Anyone know because I will support the guy. He seems like a cool guy
He normally won't share much info, presumably to keep down the stalking.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Can we please not rehash the drug thing and throw it back in his face? That was a long time ago and we don't need to win an argument with some fanboy who's throwing out crazy sauce talk. Take the high road. Choosing Unity for an MMO is enough of a head scratcher on its own.
I'm yet to think of a Unity MMO that doesn't have performance problems or designs influenced by engine limitations. If there are some out there I'd like to know so I can check it out. How Vanguard worked is irrelevant. How does Unity do with MMOs is relevant. I just don't get it unless they're rewriting major chunks of the engine itself.
With all due respect sir I believe the poster I quoted ask for information most of us are well aware of, he obviously was not.
again it’s part of his history, and that’s ok. I’m pulling for him.
People only grunt at unity because they see the games that regular people make with unity label on it.
Pantheon team has yet to show any evidence they are not just "regular" people as well.
Their game dev. history at least hints at it.
Hmm, Vanguard you mean? Doomed for sure then.
Talk is cheap, I'll believe in Unity miracles when I get to see them in action.
Nothing shown so far has been any great revelation, maybe one day, say in "18 more months?"
Playing the vanguard card holds zero weight anymore to me. Considering the story behind the failure of vanguard is well known as the fact that Microsoft ditched the project and the team had to scramble for funding to launch the game. It was rushed because of corporate entities. Not the inability of the devs
Someone didn't do their homework
Someone doesnt know the story behind the rushed release
Edit: if you know otherwise then please bring it to my attention. I'll gladly swallow what I said.
It's obvious you're looking forward to this game. I can appreciate your fandom even if it's more so cognitive dissonance. @Blueturtle13 is a talented game developer with a lot of experience. Judging by your responses it's safe to say you're not. He is absolutely right. I have nothing against Brad and wish him luck. But Vanguard's failure was due to the mismanagement from Brad. The decisions that plagued Vanguard were made long before Microsoft had a hand in it. Scapegoating MS doesn't change the facts.
Wait? Blue Turtle is a game developer that's really cool. What games has he worked on. Anyone know because I will support the guy. He seems like a cool guy
@Arterius Go buy Hellblade or get it in the current Humble Bundle
/Cheers, Lahnmir
'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
People only grunt at unity because they see the games that regular people make with unity label on it.
Pantheon team has yet to show any evidence they are not just "regular" people as well.
Their game dev. history at least hints at it.
Hmm, Vanguard you mean? Doomed for sure then.
Talk is cheap, I'll believe in Unity miracles when I get to see them in action.
Nothing shown so far has been any great revelation, maybe one day, say in "18 more months?"
Playing the vanguard card holds zero weight anymore to me. Considering the story behind the failure of vanguard is well known as the fact that Microsoft ditched the project and the team had to scramble for funding to launch the game. It was rushed because of corporate entities. Not the inability of the devs
Someone didn't do their homework
Someone doesnt know the story behind the rushed release
Edit: if you know otherwise then please bring it to my attention. I'll gladly swallow what I said.
Idk this May have had something to do with things...
“One of the Vanguard developers commented on something extremely interesting: McQuaid was addicted to narcotics and only worked on the game for fifteen minutes, which probably caused the game to crash and burn until SOE nabbed it.”
I’m not posting this to dis the dude. It is what it is. And yet here he is again. Even tho I don’t like the game he’s making, I’m pulling for him to get it done.
to give him credit, when he started VR and patheon he admitted to all this and apologised for what happened to Vanguard, he accepted responsibility for his poor choices in the past and is looking to move forward and develop the game vanguard should have been with Pantheon...
There is literally interviews with him admitting to this stuff and apologising for it.
Microsoft wasn't why Vanguard failed, Microsoft pulled out when they saw the game being mismanaged and their money disappearing to non game related expenses.
Meh....Developers not having a say in the tech stack they use?
The PM chose those? Wut.......
Developer chiming in as well.......the bean counters are typically the ones that put the squeeze on development timelines...and when it comes to tech debt.......Developers understand the cost.....PM's dont (most times)
People only grunt at unity because they see the games that regular people make with unity label on it.
Kind of....
The thing about Pantheon is, everything about the game is dated(and simple) - the visuals and design, so the game will likely be functional, but it won't be impressive example of engine capabilities.
The 'limitations' in this case aren't technical or skill but design rooted.
Also on the topic of Unity being used for an MMO, it doesn't matter what engine you use what matters is how you use it. Are you trying to use Unity's networking solution? That wont work out of the box and nor will any other "popular' 3d engine. Are you trying to use Unity as the physics engine? There could be some issues with that like requiring to run instances of Unity on the server(s) to make the calculations server side, but I don't think a game like Pantheon will require anything like that at all. Which is again the same problem if you try to use every engine as they are currently built.
If you are using Unity just as the rendering engine and you are handling everything else separately then the fact it's an "MMO" doesn't need to be in the equation at all outside of how well the engine can handle many players on screen at once, which I don't believe is a problem for Unity.
There's actually a video about how Albion is developed and it uses these same principles. Unity is only being used as the client to display the game to the user. They could switch to UE4, Godot, or even something like Phaser and still get the same exact game, same server performance, same everything. The only thing holding Albions graphics back are the design principles they set to be able to run on as many devices as possible.
Every time someone tries to claim the use of Unity for an MMO is a bad choice I cringe a little because it's not the engines fault if it doesn't work out.
Comments
you can only " take your time getting it right " for so many years before you got to wonder, if/when the game is released will their be yearly X pacs, or will they also be 2+ years got get them right too.
My fave and imo the best designed mmorpg is FFXI,designed for the paltry PS2.More classes,tons of player diversity,no hand holding,you have to learn your classes and your world,nothing is a simple marker holding your hand.Sub class system,again the best design for classes to date,until someone thinks of something better.
You don't need to work with any Unity devs or fancy game engines to pull off what i consider good game design.
I want to have to
discover
think
somewhat of a challenge
versatility
depth in all systems,including quests.
a place to call home,food and drink
NOTHING automated,no auto travel or auto offline leveling crap.
All doable within even aged old engines.All i need a new engine for is to make the game look nice,bring out the detail in the textures/models/meshes.
I don't like seeing games give me a zone that is all blue or all white,give the worlds/zones some natural color,make them look plausibly real.
"Grouping"this is an important topic that really doesn't care at all about game engines.
5+ years ago that was all i heard from every poster,every corner,gameplay >graphics.
So yeah ,i want to hear about how a game is going to be designed to bring out the best a mmo+rpg can offer,that DOES NOT mean...."we have RAIDING"..."we have DUNGEONS".."we have LOOT",that kind of talk does not persuade my interest at all.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다
거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다
Gut Out!
What, me worry?
Idk this May have had something to do with things...
“One of the Vanguard developers commented on something extremely interesting: McQuaid was addicted to narcotics and only worked on the game for fifteen minutes, which probably caused the game to crash and burn until SOE nabbed it.”
https://encyclopediadramatica.rs/Brad_McQuaid
I’m not posting this to dis the dude. It is what it is. And yet here he is again. Even tho I don’t like the game he’s making, I’m pulling for him to get it done.
Studios are always going to have to solve these problems, how their own servers need to manage content and what the actual architecture is going to be like. There are some generic solutions, and many have built packages around such things, but none are ever a perfect fit for any project.
The choice of a specific engine matters in so far that you have to account for the skill set of your team. If you do not have strong network programmers, then you should keep in mind the use of any engine that has more well documented networking solutions to draw from or that have less hoops to jump through. Many in-house engines made are the product of this, taking basic shells for an engine that a studio then builds out to fulfill the necessary tasks as they develop the title and it's scope.
Unity could work, if you stripped it down in such a manner, but then you might as well start with a more basic engine and just build up from there without stripping things out and having to deal with potential compatibility issues. It is convenient if the engine already has a bulk of components that will work, and you have the skill set and opportunity to focus on rewriting only specific elements. But this requires those skill sets which is not always available, especially with roles like good network programmers always being on the rare side (because honestly, if a programmer is good at network architecture then they are probably working for enterprise software where they will get paid more).
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
again it’s part of his history, and that’s ok. I’m pulling for him.
/Cheers,
Lahnmir
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
There is literally interviews with him admitting to this stuff and apologising for it.
Microsoft wasn't why Vanguard failed, Microsoft pulled out when they saw the game being mismanaged and their money disappearing to non game related expenses.
The PM chose those? Wut.......
Developer chiming in as well.......the bean counters are typically the ones that put the squeeze on development timelines...and when it comes to tech debt.......Developers understand the cost.....PM's dont (most times)
The thing about Pantheon is, everything about the game is dated(and simple) - the visuals and design, so the game will likely be functional, but it won't be impressive example of engine capabilities.
The 'limitations' in this case aren't technical or skill but design rooted.