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This "growing market"

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Comments

  • Azaron_NightbladeAzaron_Nightblade Member EpicPosts: 4,829
    I didn't provide alternative facts.
    I provided one fact, that gamers are jumping around in multiple games. And that's born out from posts by gamers themselves. I don't know how anyone can deny that as a fact. 


    That has always been a thing though. I did that WAY more when I was new to MMOs than I do these days. I now attribute it to the low attention span of youth, since a lot of my younger MMO friends still do that. And they love doing it, playing everything that's available under the sun.

    It doesn't automatically equal unhappiness as you seem to be pushing here.

    My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)

    https://www.ashesofcreation.com/ref/Callaron/

  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 19,332
    I think he is saying the same thing i would say and that is the market is flooded "growing"but not in a positive way.What we are seeing is EVERY single developer is monetizing their game to make more money than the game deserves.
    I do NOT want to see game items removed then sold back to us,i want to pay the EXACT same as everyone else and get the ENTIRE game,not bits and pieces and being told bullshit about non essential cash shop items.
    We used to get the entire game,no added in or removed items to resell,we can thank our fellow gamers for spending money foolishly for aiding this blemish on gaming.

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 43,975
    edited November 2019
    lahnmir said:
    Guys, what a horrible thread, it makes me agree with Gdemami. Just think about that for a second....

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    same thought
    Ugh, I know, is there a shower around here somewhere.

     :# 
    Iselin

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • BeansnBreadBeansnBread Member EpicPosts: 7,254
    I feel like I'm suddenly on board with a lot of people I agree with only on occasion. Gdemommy being the least agreeable of course.
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 43,975
    edited November 2019
    Gdemami said:
    I didn't just fabricate this. This is my opinion based on witnessing posters say they are roaming and jumping around games. 
    Your opinion is not an evidence, nor posters consisting of 0.2% of gaming population represent general public.

    In other words, you indeed fabricated those "facts".
    Time for some facts then. (I so love this game)

    "NPD confirmed that this was the worst August in terms of software sales in more than 20 years."

    "Dollar sales of tracked video game software fell 22 percent in August versus a year ago, to $257 million,” said Piscatella.

    “This represents the lowest total software sales in an August month since August 1998, which was $234 million.”

    Wait...here's some evidence the gaming market has gone very stale with many buying older game titles.

    Hey, sounds a lot like the MMORPG market where some the biggest need was the launch of WOW Classic, ArchAge Unchained, Bless version whatever but nothing really new 

    "August was not a great month for software sales. Minecraft, a 10-year-old game, was the second-best seller of the month.

    And 2013’s Grand Theft Auto V was No. 3. August had no new releases that made a dent unless you count Madden, which technically launched in NPD’s July tracking period."

    https://venturebeat.com/2019/09/12/august-2019-npd/

    Let me know,  I can go on all day like this.

     :D 

    (Wait for it...)
    GdemamiPhaserlightScot[Deleted User]Palebane

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • kitaradkitarad Member LegendaryPosts: 8,164
    Kyleran said:
    Gdemami said:
    I didn't just fabricate this. This is my opinion based on witnessing posters say they are roaming and jumping around games. 
    Your opinion is not an evidence, nor posters consisting of 0.2% of gaming population represent general public.

    In other words, you indeed fabricated those "facts".
    Time for some facts then. (I so love this game)

    "NPD confirmed that this was the worst August in terms of software sales in more than 20 years."

    "Dollar sales of tracked video game software fell 22 percent in August versus a year ago, to $257 million,” said Piscatella.

    “This represents the lowest total software sales in an August month since August 1998, which was $234 million.”

    Wait...here's some evidence the gaming market has gone very stale with many buying older game titles.

    Hey, sounds a lot like the MMORPG market where some the biggest need was the launch of WOW Classic, ArchAge Unchained, Bless version whatever but nothing really new 

    "August was not a great month for software sales. Minecraft, a 10-year-old game, was the second-best seller of the month.

    And 2013’s Grand Theft Auto V was No. 3. August had no new releases that made a dent unless you count Madden, which technically launched in NPD’s July tracking period."

    https://venturebeat.com/2019/09/12/august-2019-npd/

    Let me know,  I can go on all day like this.

     :D 

    (Wait for it...)
    NPD tracks physical sales at retailers, but it also gets digital data directly from publishers. But not every company participates. For example, Nintendo doesn’t share its first-party sales, and Activision Blizzard does not provide its Battle.net sales.


    I buy most of my games from Humble Bundle or Steam and other places never from the publisher itself. I believe I am not a minority.

  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 43,975
    edited November 2019
    kitarad said:
    Kyleran said:
    Gdemami said:
    I didn't just fabricate this. This is my opinion based on witnessing posters say they are roaming and jumping around games. 
    Your opinion is not an evidence, nor posters consisting of 0.2% of gaming population represent general public.

    In other words, you indeed fabricated those "facts".
    Time for some facts then. (I so love this game)

    "NPD confirmed that this was the worst August in terms of software sales in more than 20 years."

    "Dollar sales of tracked video game software fell 22 percent in August versus a year ago, to $257 million,” said Piscatella.

    “This represents the lowest total software sales in an August month since August 1998, which was $234 million.”

    Wait...here's some evidence the gaming market has gone very stale with many buying older game titles.

    Hey, sounds a lot like the MMORPG market where some the biggest need was the launch of WOW Classic, ArchAge Unchained, Bless version whatever but nothing really new 

    "August was not a great month for software sales. Minecraft, a 10-year-old game, was the second-best seller of the month.

    And 2013’s Grand Theft Auto V was No. 3. August had no new releases that made a dent unless you count Madden, which technically launched in NPD’s July tracking period."

    https://venturebeat.com/2019/09/12/august-2019-npd/

    Let me know,  I can go on all day like this.

     :D 

    (Wait for it...)
    NPD tracks physical sales at retailers, but it also gets digital data directly from publishers. But not every company participates. For example, Nintendo doesn’t share its first-party sales, and Activision Blizzard does not provide its Battle.net sales.


    I buy most of my games from Humble Bundle or Steam and other places never from the publisher itself. I believe I am not a minority.
    As long as their methodology for collecting data is consistent between time periods their results are likely still valid.

    Now if you can show evidence that since last August and this one a large number of buyers have shifted their purchasong from a source they do track to one they dont then you might have a valid point. 

    Also note they did not specifically say whether or not they include sales from gaming services so we can only be sure of what they excluded from the examples they have.

    I'm well aware almost all figures like this are at best educated guesses as I don't believe many companies or retailers willingly provide these sort of numbers to the likes of NPD or everyone's favorite,  Sooperdata.

    But hey now, you are messing with my fun. Can't let him realize I have argued both sides regarding the use of "facts" from the internet.

    Very often (just as with religion) it comes down to what you choose to believe* as proven facts are nearly impossible to come by, at least in terms of gaming numbers. (and faith)

    ;)

    * lifted this concept from the movie God's not Dead.
    Palebane

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,342
    Kyleran said:
    As long as their methodology for collecting data is consistent between time periods their results are likely still valid.
    ...it isn't.

    /sigh
    Kyleranalkarionlog
  • UtinniUtinni Member EpicPosts: 2,209
    I think the folks complaining about games just aren't trying the right games. If anything I'm overwhelmed with games to play in every genre I currently enjoy. Internet complain-culture has too much sway over peoples opinions these days.
    KyleranAlBQuirkyalkarionlogPalebane
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 43,975
    Utinni said:
    I think the folks complaining about games just aren't trying the right games. If anything I'm overwhelmed with games to play in every genre I currently enjoy. Internet complain-culture has too much sway over peoples opinions these days.
    I have played less than 5 games per year for over 20 years.

    Yeah, my backlog of great titles is still huge even if 95% (not an actual fact) are crap.

    ;)

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 43,975
    edited November 2019
    Gdemami said:
    Kyleran said:
    As long as their methodology for collecting data is consistent between time periods their results are likely still valid.
    ...it isn't.

    /sigh
    In case you missed it. (I'm here to help.)

    Very often (just as with religion) it comes down to what you choose to believe* as proven facts are nearly impossible to come by, at least in terms of gaming numbers. (and faith)

    You actually have got it down pat. Selective believing in spite of large bodies of evidence or opinions to the contrary is sort of your thing, yes?

    Cheers 

    :)
    AlBQuirkyalkarionlogGdemami

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • UtinniUtinni Member EpicPosts: 2,209
    Kyleran said:
    Utinni said:
    I think the folks complaining about games just aren't trying the right games. If anything I'm overwhelmed with games to play in every genre I currently enjoy. Internet complain-culture has too much sway over peoples opinions these days.
    I have played less than 5 games per year for over 20 years.

    Yeah, my backlog of great titles is still huge even if 95% (not an actual fact) are crap.

    ;)
    Same here. My desktop looks like the early 2000s. There are still lots of gems coming out over the years especially for RPG fans. People just need to be open minded!
    alkarionlog
  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 7,432
    Utinni said:
    I think the folks complaining about games just aren't trying the right games. If anything I'm overwhelmed with games to play in every genre I currently enjoy. Internet complain-culture has too much sway over peoples opinions these days.
    It's quite possible, and I agree that internet complain-culture is rampant and unrestrained. I think there is a nugget of truth, though.

    Certainly there are some good games released each and every year. I have found that many, many more are released that are not praised. I certainly don't play every game released, as I am not a multi-million dollar person able to afford buying every game as it releases :)

    I happen to be a picky, finicky player that knows what I like and what I don't like. I'm not wasting my money on games I don't like and the ones that catch my interest seem to become less every year. That's just me, of course, as I know of many video game players that enjoy, even love many new games each and every year. I'm happy for them, but won't say the industry is doing great for me personally ;)

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


  • PhaserlightPhaserlight Member EpicPosts: 3,075
    You know, there's an economic definition for "growth", and whether or not the market is "growing" it's not measured by the general contentment of internet posters.

    I'd have to agree the market is stale, but not for the reasons proposed (the "gaming" based mutual fund I've invested in has failed to grow at all over the last year).

    The entire thread brings to mind this podcast with Cory Doctorow and 'how we know what we know' right now: 

    https://www.preposterousuniverse.com/podcast/2019/10/21/69-cory-doctorow-on-technology-monopoly-and-the-future-of-the-internet/
    AlBQuirky

    "The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar
    Authored 139 missions in Vendetta Online and 6 tracks in Distance

  • AAAMEOWAAAMEOW Member RarePosts: 1,617
    The mmorpg market are always pathetically small.  This website track the player number back in the days.  Looks pretty small to me.

    http://mmodata.blogspot.com/

    People also argue that mmorpg games only have 10% retention rate.  That happen to other genre too...  

    MMORPG is just not popular.  And never is popular.
  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,342
    edited November 2019
    Kyleran said:
    Selective believing in spite of large bodies of evidence or opinions to the contrary is sort of your thing, yes?

    Not really but it is apprently your sort of thing since despite overwhelming evidence, you still believe what you say is something smart or just logically correct.

    Reliability in no way implies validity - you can make thousands of measurements producing consistent results(reliability) but that does not mean you are measuring what you are setup to measure(validity).

    So once again, you are here making horribly fallacious claims...

    In case you missed it. (I'm here to help.)
  • MendelMendel Member LegendaryPosts: 5,609
    I've never been entirely convinced that the genre is growing.  Blizzard managed to convert players from its other genre franchises into WoW players.  That appeared to be a one-time influx that moved the total genre population from about 2 million people to about 15 million people.  I'd still estimate the number of actual people playing MMORPGs at somewhere between 20 and 23 million people.  Even popular IPs like Star Wars, Star Trek and Lord of the Rings never caused the substantial grown in the customer base that many industry pundits predicted.

    Reliable counts of people are very difficult to obtain for the casual public.  It's relatively easy to get income figures, especially for public companies.  As new games come along, players populate the new game generating revenue.  Some players may create additional accounts, generating even more revenue.  Then there is the micro-transaction income.  The dollar amount may actually be increasing while the population remains stable.

    This observable behavior could be an indication that the MMORPG market is a relatively finite population.  We might move around from game to game, but we aren't in a growth pattern.  We may be generating more revenue, but that money is spread across multiple companies.  It is entirely possible that anyone remotely interested in the MMORPG genre is already playing one or has 'retired' from the genre.



    AlBQuirkyPalebane

    Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

  • AmatheAmathe Member LegendaryPosts: 7,630
    The market for video games generally is growing.

    The market for some types of online video games is growing.

    The market for traditional mmorpgs, not so much.

    But that could change if some major player steps up and knocks one out of the park.
    [Deleted User]PhaserlightAlBQuirkyPalebane

    EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests

  • OGDeathRowOGDeathRow Member UncommonPosts: 129
    Gdemami said:
    I didn't just fabricate this. This is my opinion based on witnessing posters say they are roaming and jumping around games. 
    Your opinion is not an evidence, nor posters consisting of 0.2% of gaming population represent general public.

    In other words, you indeed fabricated those "facts".
    Posters are a microcosm of the larger public. 
    Moreover, they are the gamers most into the games, or else they wouldn't be interested in posting on forums. 
    Worse, is the lack of posting compared to days of yore, you know, a few years ago. :*
    When someone is pleased by a product, how quick do they express it? Now think of when someone dislikes a product, how quick are they to complain. So, as another gent said "fabrication"
  • gervaise1gervaise1 Member EpicPosts: 6,919
    Kyleran said:
    kitarad said:
    Kyleran said:
    Gdemami said:
    I didn't just fabricate this. This is my opinion based on witnessing posters say they are roaming and jumping around games. 
    Your opinion is not an evidence, nor posters consisting of 0.2% of gaming population represent general public.

    In other words, you indeed fabricated those "facts".
    Time for some facts then. (I so love this game)

    "NPD confirmed that this was the worst August in terms of software sales in more than 20 years."

    "Dollar sales of tracked video game software fell 22 percent in August versus a year ago, to $257 million,” said Piscatella.

    “This represents the lowest total software sales in an August month since August 1998, which was $234 million.”

    Wait...here's some evidence the gaming market has gone very stale with many buying older game titles.

    Hey, sounds a lot like the MMORPG market where some the biggest need was the launch of WOW Classic, ArchAge Unchained, Bless version whatever but nothing really new 

    "August was not a great month for software sales. Minecraft, a 10-year-old game, was the second-best seller of the month.

    And 2013’s Grand Theft Auto V was No. 3. August had no new releases that made a dent unless you count Madden, which technically launched in NPD’s July tracking period."

    https://venturebeat.com/2019/09/12/august-2019-npd/

    Let me know,  I can go on all day like this.

     :D 

    (Wait for it...)
    NPD tracks physical sales at retailers, but it also gets digital data directly from publishers. But not every company participates. For example, Nintendo doesn’t share its first-party sales, and Activision Blizzard does not provide its Battle.net sales.


    I buy most of my games from Humble Bundle or Steam and other places never from the publisher itself. I believe I am not a minority.
    As long as their methodology for collecting data is consistent between time periods their results are likely still valid.
    <snip>

    I'm well aware almost all figures like this are at best educated guesses as I don't believe many companies or retailers willingly provide these sort of numbers to the likes of NPD or everyone's favorite,  Sooperdata.

    <snip>
    Probably less than you would assume. As only a sub-set is being collected a spike one month might be the release of a "major release" from a tracked company whilst a decline the next might be due to a non-tracked e.g. Zenimax releasing a big hit. So then you have to assume that all tracked companies maintain the same cadence of hit releases.

    Throw in seasonal / macro-economic factors and all those global companies that will not be included and I am not sure that even a year to year comparison will be valid. 
    Gdemami
  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member EpicPosts: 5,851
    Gdemami said:
    I didn't just fabricate this. This is my opinion based on witnessing posters say they are roaming and jumping around games. 
    Your opinion is not an evidence, nor posters consisting of 0.2% of gaming population represent general public.

    In other words, you indeed fabricated those "facts".
    Posters are a microcosm of the larger public. 
    Moreover, they are the gamers most into the games, or else they wouldn't be interested in posting on forums. 
    Worse, is the lack of posting compared to days of yore, you know, a few years ago. :*
    When someone is pleased by a product, how quick do they express it? Now think of when someone dislikes a product, how quick are they to complain. So, as another gent said "fabrication"
    Those many posters who have said that they are playing x number of games were not complaining, they were "just sayin'." 
    Many times, but not strictly speaking, in threads asking what or how many games people are playing. That source, the only one available, is not about complaints of the industry. 

    It's kind of funny that I'm using the only source available, whereas my debaters have no source other than their own belief, yet the comments used in this debate often claim that my argument is the one based solely on my belief. 

    Go figure that one! lol

    Gdemami

    Once upon a time....

  • PalebanePalebane Member RarePosts: 4,011
    edited November 2019
    Only so many hours on the day. Play what you like. Game loyalty is silly to me. Yeah you spent a lot of time, but its not wasted unless you are playing out of obligation imo. My library is full enough I’ll never go without, but at the same time, I’d be fine if I could only ever play 10 of them (as long as I get to choose which 10). 

    Dont know what to tell you about the market. Largely out of your hands. Vote with your wallet. Accept things you cannot change. There are some companies that are trying to be more customer friendly. Support them.
    AlBQuirky

    Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.

  • AAAMEOWAAAMEOW Member RarePosts: 1,617
    edited November 2019
    Mendel said:
    I've never been entirely convinced that the genre is growing.  Blizzard managed to convert players from its other genre franchises into WoW players.  That appeared to be a one-time influx that moved the total genre population from about 2 million people to about 15 million people.  I'd still estimate the number of actual people playing MMORPGs at somewhere between 20 and 23 million people.  Even popular IPs like Star Wars, Star Trek and Lord of the Rings never caused the substantial grown in the customer base that many industry pundits predicted.

    Reliable counts of people are very difficult to obtain for the casual public.  It's relatively easy to get income figures, especially for public companies.  As new games come along, players populate the new game generating revenue.  Some players may create additional accounts, generating even more revenue.  Then there is the micro-transaction income.  The dollar amount may actually be increasing while the population remains stable.

    This observable behavior could be an indication that the MMORPG market is a relatively finite population.  We might move around from game to game, but we aren't in a growth pattern.  We may be generating more revenue, but that money is spread across multiple companies.  It is entirely possible that anyone remotely interested in the MMORPG genre is already playing one or has 'retired' from the genre.



    I think part of the surge is people started playing mmorpg in China.  Much of the growth of Wow come from China too.

    Fantasy westward journey apparently become quite popular in China too.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fantasy_Westward_Journey

    The genre seemed pretty stagnant.  If you discount the grow from the influx China population, it don't seemed to change much.  Other online game genre seemed to have much more growth compare to mmorpg.
    MendelAlBQuirky
  • gervaise1gervaise1 Member EpicPosts: 6,919
    edited November 2019
    Gdemami said:
    I didn't just fabricate this. This is my opinion based on witnessing posters say they are roaming and jumping around games. 
    Your opinion is not an evidence, nor posters consisting of 0.2% of gaming population represent general public.

    In other words, you indeed fabricated those "facts".
    Posters are a microcosm of the larger public. 
    Moreover, they are the gamers most into the games, or else they wouldn't be interested in posting on forums. 
    Worse, is the lack of posting compared to days of yore, you know, a few years ago. :*
    When someone is pleased by a product, how quick do they express it? Now think of when someone dislikes a product, how quick are they to complain. So, as another gent said "fabrication"
    Those many posters who have said that they are playing x number of games were not complaining, they were "just sayin'." 
    Many times, but not strictly speaking, in threads asking what or how many games people are playing. That source, the only one available, is not about complaints of the industry. 

    It's kind of funny that I'm using the only source available, whereas my debaters have no source other than their own belief, yet the comments used in this debate often claim that my argument is the one based solely on my belief. 

    Go figure that one! lol

    Your source being posters comments on forums? That being the only thing you have referenced above.

    Well the launch of e.g. ToA generated a 100+ pages of - "hate mail" lets call it - a day for weeks. Not posts but pages of posts. There are other examples but ToA was a classic. Nothing like that happens in forums today so - QED - people must be much happier now than they used to be. 

    Go figure!

    (In case you missed it I did mention churn in EQ1 and 10M people a year, on average, leaving WoW for 10 years. That is hard evidence of people moving btw. )
  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 7,432
    Amathe said:
    The market for video games generally is growing.

    The market for some types of online video games is growing.

    The market for traditional mmorpgs, not so much.

    But that could change if some major player steps up and knocks one out of the park.
    and...

    The population is growing.

    Smartphone sales/usage is growing.

    Tablet sales/usage is growing.

    Internet access/usage is growing.
    Phaserlight

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


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