MOST games give constant good loot as you level "automatically". Infact it's so bad, this topic doesn't even apply anymore.
Classic or Vanilla World of Warcraft proves this wrong. You come out of a one to two hour dungeon with one or two usable items.... the game seems balanced anyway. It's good to not be happy with maximum stuff, it keeps you wanting therefore keeps you wanting to play !
If you have a problem with always being wanting, then why play ANY GAME ?
There's a balance point somewhere between too easy and too hard and it varies between different types of gamers.
I recall running Strathholm or something like it back in 2005 or so in WOW and meeting a Pally I think who was trying to complete his "set." (I've forgotten what those are were anymore)
The run I was on with him was his 76th time doing it as the RNG godz had been very unkind as they so often were to me.
My mind boggled to think he had run this same dungeon so many times just for one piece of not so rare gear, not like he was seeking the Baron's mount or something.
It really made me start questioning why I was playing games with such designs.
Although I went on to raid and play many other MMORPGs hoping they would find a better way, it turned out the direction they went, omni loot for all wasn't actually any more satisfying
I gave up on themeparks all together, staying mostly with EVE for almost 10 years as my preferred style of game play.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
"I think everyone should get something when they go through a dungeon" "I think better loot should drop in lower level dungeons"
In your single player games with your AI companion's ya, in multiplayer games no. Completely diminishes and trivializes content, creates inflation, devalues the market, fosters entitlement, on and on. What your asking for is socialism in an MMO. There are piles of trashy MMO's out there doing just that now, and layering in a nice juicy cash shop on top. No thank you.
How about this -- regardless of level -- Getting the good gear is relatively easy but gear is charged. You could do dungeon X and you will probably get several pieces of gear from it, but you get it at 0/1000(the end number could vary dungeon to dungeon level to level). Gear gains charge easiest from using it in the dungeon you gained it. Less so in harder dungeons than the one you gained it from(say 30-70% speed). Even less so from easier dungeons(say 15-25%). And marginally from regular world mobs(say 2-10%).
That number represents how comfortable the item is for you, how much of the value of the item you can access. Lets say a blue drop was 35 Armor value and some stats. The 0/1000 version of an orange would be similar. A fully charged version would be 70 armor, better stats, and some extra power. A purple drop(rare) would be say 48 armor value and have no charge feature.
I'll have to disagree. People see RNG in mmorpgs and automatically think its a bad/cheap mechanic to elongate something, which can be fine. One-shotting content just leads people little incentive to continuously do it and developers trying to combat that by adding more useless loot. I'm in the mindset that mmorpgs just have too much loot atm. A player honestly doesn't need things to drop actual gear ALL THE TIME.
Personally, I feel FFXI (in its 'glory days') did a good balance of gear drops that mattered and materials dropping to make other gear or transform certain pieces of gear into better items. So maybe you take the claw from that dragon boss you killed and turn into something for your caster to wear or a weapon your melee can use (sort of like Monster Hunter), but that same dragon can drop a spell-imbued parchment (called abjuration in FFXI) which you can take to a priest with a cursed piece of gear you crafted from w/e cursed materials you got from bosses you farmed and unseal that item. Does it sound like a lot of work? Sure. But take into consideration the depth of everything that is going on during getting that one piece of gear coupled with the fact that powerful gear is actually rare to obtain. You need high-end crafters, so that makes crafting important. You also need solid groups of people to get all the different materials. This also means that the level on these powerful items is less relevant, which is a huge problem in mmorpgs today. 'Colors' on items today dont matter so long as they are a higher level, so those rares/epics/whatever you get are only relevant if the level is relevant.
I'm not saying these same bosses shouldn't drop loot at all, but what they can drop shouldn't be this pinata that everyone should receive something from it all the time. You can call it cheap due to RNG, but personally the only cheap RNG I feel exists is getting a drop and then that same drop has 5 different better versions of itself (yeah, I'm looking at you titanforging).
I'll have to disagree. People see RNG in mmorpgs and automatically think its a bad/cheap mechanic to elongate something, which can be fine. One-shotting content just leads people little incentive to continuously do it and developers trying to combat that by adding more useless loot. I'm in the mindset that mmorpgs just have too much loot atm. A player honestly doesn't need things to drop actual gear ALL THE TIME.
Personally, I feel FFXI (in its 'glory days') did a good balance of gear drops that mattered and materials dropping to make other gear or transform certain pieces of gear into better items. So maybe you take the claw from that dragon boss you killed and turn into something for your caster to wear or a weapon your melee can use (sort of like Monster Hunter), but that same dragon can drop a spell-imbued parchment (called abjuration in FFXI) which you can take to a priest with a cursed piece of gear you crafted from w/e cursed materials you got from bosses you farmed and unseal that item. Does it sound like a lot of work? Sure. But take into consideration the depth of everything that is going on during getting that one piece of gear coupled with the fact that powerful gear is actually rare to obtain. You need high-end crafters, so that makes crafting important. You also need solid groups of people to get all the different materials. I'm not saying these same bosses shouldn't drop loot at all, but what they can drop shouldn't be this pinata that everyone should receive something from it all the time. You can call it cheap due to RNG, but personally the only cheap RNG I feel exists is getting a drop and then that same drop has 5 different better versions of itself (yeah, I'm looking at you titanforging).
It depends a lot on the game design. Some games are more about which abilities you use and the loot is mostly just stat sticks while others, ESO for example, has loot sets that give you special abilities in addition to stats.
ESO is appropriately generous with its set loot drops with every boss in a dungeon dropping a guaranteed set piece for each player. It also goes a step further and has 3 sets (magicka, stamina and tanking) that drop exclusively in a zone or a particular dungeon and it drops at all levels so it's relatively easy to farm them. There's still some RNG involved since the drop may not be for the one you want out of the three sets or it may not be the item slot you need but it's still relatively easy to get compared to how many other MMOs do it.
A level 10 player can theoretically use the very same set that a CP160+ player can. The only reason I say "theoretically" is that you level so quickly that the level specific drops often create a situation that by the time you get the 5th piece of the set you're often better off not completing the set because the 1st piece you got for it has been substantially outleveled. Once you get to the CP160 max loot level though it's very simple to grind for the specific permanent set you want.
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“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
I'll have to disagree. People see RNG in mmorpgs and automatically think its a bad/cheap mechanic to elongate something, which can be fine. One-shotting content just leads people little incentive to continuously do it and developers trying to combat that by adding more useless loot. I'm in the mindset that mmorpgs just have too much loot atm. A player honestly doesn't need things to drop actual gear ALL THE TIME.
Personally, I feel FFXI (in its 'glory days') did a good balance of gear drops that mattered and materials dropping to make other gear or transform certain pieces of gear into better items. So maybe you take the claw from that dragon boss you killed and turn into something for your caster to wear or a weapon your melee can use (sort of like Monster Hunter), but that same dragon can drop a spell-imbued parchment (called abjuration in FFXI) which you can take to a priest with a cursed piece of gear you crafted from w/e cursed materials you got from bosses you farmed and unseal that item. Does it sound like a lot of work? Sure. But take into consideration the depth of everything that is going on during getting that one piece of gear coupled with the fact that powerful gear is actually rare to obtain. You need high-end crafters, so that makes crafting important. You also need solid groups of people to get all the different materials. This also means that the level on these powerful items is less relevant, which is a huge problem in mmorpgs today. 'Colors' on items today dont matter so long as they are a higher level, so those rares/epics/whatever you get are only relevant if the level is relevant.
I'm not saying these same bosses shouldn't drop loot at all, but what they can drop shouldn't be this pinata that everyone should receive something from it all the time. You can call it cheap due to RNG, but personally the only cheap RNG I feel exists is getting a drop and then that same drop has 5 different better versions of itself (yeah, I'm looking at you titanforging).
Yeah, was going to bring FFXI up as well. They really did a great job with itemization. There were level 10 rare items that were still powerful into endgame content, and then because of the gear swapping you had that many more possible items to chase. Wear your DPS gear with accuracy and haste when building tp then swap to gear kitted out with the stats for your weaponskill, then swap back to DPS gear. Also a lot of situational kit like the status bolts for crossbows.
It sounds cumbersome but the macro system made it a cinch and it added so much more flexibility and again provided a great carrot to chase. They also had a definitive long-term goal for progression which games today have eschewed in favor quarterly content invalidation. RElic weapons actually meant something in FFXI, and even as they introduced new gear they never stepped on the toes of the relic weapons.
"I think everyone should get something when they go through a dungeon" "I think better loot should drop in lower level dungeons"
In your single player games with your AI companion's ya, in multiplayer games no. Completely diminishes and trivializes content, creates inflation, devalues the market, fosters entitlement, on and on. What your asking for is socialism in an MMO. There are piles of trashy MMO's out there doing just that now, and layering in a nice juicy cash shop on top. No thank you.
Earn it.
I see what you're saying, but find myself asking: How does successfully completing a dungeon run not earn the reward?
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
"I think everyone should get something when they go through a dungeon" "I think better loot should drop in lower level dungeons"
In your single player games with your AI companion's ya, in multiplayer games no. Completely diminishes and trivializes content, creates inflation, devalues the market, fosters entitlement, on and on. What your asking for is socialism in an MMO. There are piles of trashy MMO's out there doing just that now, and layering in a nice juicy cash shop on top. No thank you.
Earn it.
I see what you're saying, but find myself asking: How does successfully completing a dungeon run not earn the reward?
I see relying on a RNG to give you loot is earning it. That's gambling in my book. Earning a reward is finishing a dungeon and receiving a reward not /roll. The fact that people are arguing that is the proper way to earn a reward tells you how we have been brainwashed.
I also prefer the way FFXI handled it. I think randomly rolling and relying on luck to give you a reward is a pretty shitty way to get a reward. It's better when you earn things like points or resources which you can then use to make gear and other things. You don't walk away empty handed and resentful after the 90th time that some new player just robbed you of the thing you have been trying for the last 89 runs.
I was in a very good guild in Everquest that gave each class that attended their DKP and then you earned the right to loot the item. It made me feel like I invested my time and effort towards helping others and I knew my turn would come as long as I earned the DKP and not lose it to some new guildee that just joined that day.
Comments
I recall running Strathholm or something like it back in 2005 or so in WOW and meeting a Pally I think who was trying to complete his "set." (I've forgotten what those are were anymore)
The run I was on with him was his 76th time doing it as the RNG godz had been very unkind as they so often were to me.
My mind boggled to think he had run this same dungeon so many times just for one piece of not so rare gear, not like he was seeking the Baron's mount or something.
It really made me start questioning why I was playing games with such designs.
Although I went on to raid and play many other MMORPGs hoping they would find a better way, it turned out the direction they went, omni loot for all wasn't actually any more satisfying
I gave up on themeparks all together, staying mostly with EVE for almost 10 years as my preferred style of game play.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
In your single player games with your AI companion's ya, in multiplayer games no. Completely diminishes and trivializes content, creates inflation, devalues the market, fosters entitlement, on and on. What your asking for is socialism in an MMO. There are piles of trashy MMO's out there doing just that now, and layering in a nice juicy cash shop on top. No thank you.
Earn it.
That number represents how comfortable the item is for you, how much of the value of the item you can access. Lets say a blue drop was 35 Armor value and some stats. The 0/1000 version of an orange would be similar. A fully charged version would be 70 armor, better stats, and some extra power. A purple drop(rare) would be say 48 armor value and have no charge feature.
ESO is appropriately generous with its set loot drops with every boss in a dungeon dropping a guaranteed set piece for each player. It also goes a step further and has 3 sets (magicka, stamina and tanking) that drop exclusively in a zone or a particular dungeon and it drops at all levels so it's relatively easy to farm them. There's still some RNG involved since the drop may not be for the one you want out of the three sets or it may not be the item slot you need but it's still relatively easy to get compared to how many other MMOs do it.
A level 10 player can theoretically use the very same set that a CP160+ player can. The only reason I say "theoretically" is that you level so quickly that the level specific drops often create a situation that by the time you get the 5th piece of the set you're often better off not completing the set because the 1st piece you got for it has been substantially outleveled. Once you get to the CP160 max loot level though it's very simple to grind for the specific permanent set you want.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
It sounds cumbersome but the macro system made it a cinch and it added so much more flexibility and again provided a great carrot to chase. They also had a definitive long-term goal for progression which games today have eschewed in favor quarterly content invalidation. RElic weapons actually meant something in FFXI, and even as they introduced new gear they never stepped on the toes of the relic weapons.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
I also prefer the way FFXI handled it. I think randomly rolling and relying on luck to give you a reward is a pretty shitty way to get a reward. It's better when you earn things like points or resources which you can then use to make gear and other things. You don't walk away empty handed and resentful after the 90th time that some new player just robbed you of the thing you have been trying for the last 89 runs.
I was in a very good guild in Everquest that gave each class that attended their DKP and then you earned the right to loot the item. It made me feel like I invested my time and effort towards helping others and I knew my turn would come as long as I earned the DKP and not lose it to some new guildee that just joined that day.