I'm not stewing in my juices, but I'm also not going to roll over and gaslight unethical business practices. There are other things in life I don't like but I am powerless to directly and immediately change. That doesn't mean I throw up my hands, give up, and virtue signal bad behavior. That would be like saying, "Whelp I can't change the news media industry so I might as well take what Fox says at face value since everyone is a liar."
But this is something you can control. You can 1) simply not give your business and 2) cancel. You don't have to change the industry to combat "unethical behavior".
How do people "forget" to cancel an MMORPG subscription? Do you quit a game and not realize that you've quit it? How does that happen? Do you forget that it was a subscription game and think it had been free to play all along? Or do you just find it too much of a bother to go cancel the subscription, even though you're aware that you need to?
So you're saying that people don't forget and the only reason subs have been historically auto-recurring is because they provide a better service for people that would otherwise be bothered by the inconvenience of having to manually renew - people who perhaps would otherwise forget to manually renew although apparently, no one ever forgets to cancel lol.
The shit you guys come up with to defend dodgy business practices is amazing.
Yeah but as Ultimate Duck says, "as an adult" one should check their expenses. It's just part of life.
You're correct, there should be a tick box that chooses auto renew or not. But thinking about it now, I actually never auto renew. I can't on Steam unless I prepay my steam wallet and "screw that" and I normally cancel every time I sub for something.
I'm not saying your not an adult but it can be pretty much bypassed with minimal inconvenience. I do think it would be better customer service to have that but it is in our control.
Please explain why the responsibility should be put on the consumer to prevent a vendor from incurring recurring charges to a bank account? Really all Iselin is asking for is 1) opt-in to recurring fees; 2) easy opt-out/cancellation of subscriptions.
Recurring fees, from any vendor, should always be explicitly opt-in. Cancelling a recurring sub shouldn't be a hard-mode puzzle for the consumer to try and figure out. The tech industry, as a whole, is begging loudly for intrusive regulation. This is the kind of shenanigans other industries giggled and got away with a century ago. Opt-in doesn't punish capitalism, it rewards ethical businesses by leveling the playing field with unscrupulous actors.
Not saying it should be. But it is what it is. Change it if you don't like it. You can't? then find a way to deal with it.
This is something I noted the very first time I put my credit card into a game site. I don't disagree but I'm not one to stew in my own juices because I don't like something. I either don't patronize the site, take action and just cancel it immediately or be mindful of each month and then cancel when I no longer want to subscribe.
But really, you don't like it? Do something. Or are people waiting for others to do something?
Form a petition, get players to not subscribe, write your congressman "whatever."
Sorry I just don't sit around being pissy about shit. For me that's no way to live. If don't like something or a practice, I don't patronize it. But if a company says "this is what we have/this is what we offer" you have the choice to do it or not.
It's not like this is only a problem with video games. It's a larger problem in other industries as well. Doing a quick search it seems that the ftc has made some strides in that a company can't autorenew unless they fully disclose what the consumer is signing up for. And that's the thing, it's not great customer service if they don't offer options, but you as the consumer have the choice, at least with video games, to sign up or not.
Maybe this is not a popular way to be but it's my opinion. If I felt more strongly about it I would do something about it. I use my bandwidth for other things.
Here, go nuts. I've also submitted a complaint. Not really optimistic about a change but who knows.
I'm not stewing in my juices, but I'm also not going to roll over and gaslight unethical business practices. There are other things in life I don't like but I am powerless to directly and immediately change. That doesn't mean I throw up my hands, give up, and virtue signal bad behavior. That would be like saying, "Whelp I can't change the news media industry so I might as well take what Fox says at face value since everyone is a liar."
Great, let's do something it starts now. I did the barest minimum. What else? Write congressman? see if a larger internet awareness can't be made? suggestions?
Again, this isn't a "real" issue for me as I just deal with it. But if it's really a larger issue that should be addressed then let's do it.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Apparently some "adults" don't have a clue about things like negative option billing which other adults have made illegal in certain jurisdictions.
In the province of Quebec for example, neither Prime nor Netflix nor anyone else can give you a free month trial with an auto-subscribe at the end of the trial - It's illegal just like all this scummy horseshit should be.
Bad corporate citizens those Quebecois.
Sounds like the beginning of a nanny state trying to save you from yourself because you can't handle your own responsibilities.
Ooh big bad nanny states... LMAO. Any other alt right slogans you want to share?
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Apparently some "adults" don't have a clue about things like negative option billing which other adults have made illegal in certain jurisdictions.
In the province of Quebec for example, neither Prime nor Netflix nor anyone else can give you a free month trial with an auto-subscribe at the end of the trial - It's illegal just like all this scummy horseshit should be.
Bad corporate citizens those Quebecois.
Sounds like the beginning of a nanny state trying to save you from yourself because you can't handle your own responsibilities.
Ooh big bad nanny states... LMAO. Any other alt right slogans you want to share?
Sorry, not republican. It has nothing to do with political affiliation and everything to do with expecting the government to pass laws because you don't want to be held responsible for your actions.
Rather than grow up, you want government intervention so you don't have to click "unsubscribe".
I think you are defending the business practices of people who know good and well (and likely have reports and studies on it) how many people will forget/neglect to click non-renew. They are relying on it. They are profiting from it.
This nonsense about adults and responsibilities and all that type of jazz is for the birds. People can disagree about business ethics without one person having to be the non-adult.
For example, pickpockets touch or bump you as a distraction while taking your belongings. When I lived in Manhattan, I got in the habit of checking my wallet every single time anybody touched me. It's over 30 years later, and I no longer live in Manhattan, but I still do that.
But it sucks. And it doesn't mean every victim of a pickpocket deserves what they get just because they aren't as careful as I am. The pickpocket is still to blame.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
I think you are defending the business practices of people who know good and well (and likely have reports and studies on it) how many people will forget/neglect to click non-renew. They are relying on it. They are profiting from it.
This nonsense about adults and responsibilities and all that type of jazz is for the birds. People can disagree about business ethics without one person having to be the non-adult.
For example, pickpockets touch or bump you as a distraction while taking your belongings. When I lived in Manhattan, I got in the habit of checking my wallet every single time anybody touched me. It's over 30 years later, and I no longer live in Manhattan, but I still do that.
But it sucks. And it doesn't mean every victim of a pickpocket deserves what they get just because they aren't as careful as I am. The pickpocket is still to blame.
I'm not defending anything they are doing. I am saying if you don't like something as avoidable as this subject, it is within your power to change it with just a tiny bit of responsibility. If it was just about money, they wouldn't refund your sub if you cancel after the billing cycle and haven't logged in. I was moving and wasn't going to log in for close to a month. In the hecticness, I forgot to cancel my sub for DAoC (3 accounts) and Eve Online. I called and cancelled, they saw I hadn't logged in and refunded my subs, all of them. Even if they hadn't, it was on me to cancel.
If a law is passed to stop this, great. Until them, there's an easy "fix"... taking responsibility.
I think you are defending the business practices of people who know good and well (and likely have reports and studies on it) how many people will forget/neglect to click non-renew. They are relying on it. They are profiting from it.
This nonsense about adults and responsibilities and all that type of jazz is for the birds. People can disagree about business ethics without one person having to be the non-adult.
For example, pickpockets touch or bump you as a distraction while taking your belongings. When I lived in Manhattan, I got in the habit of checking my wallet every single time anybody touched me. It's over 30 years later, and I no longer live in Manhattan, but I still do that.
But it sucks. And it doesn't mean every victim of a pickpocket deserves what they get just because they aren't as careful as I am. The pickpocket is still to blame.
No victim of pickpocketing deserves what they get. But what would you do then? When I go to New York my wallet is in my front pocket. All the time. I'm not going stop people from being thieves but my choices are: get pickpocketed, take precautions to minimize the chance of pickpocketing, not go to New York.
I mean, I can take precautions and still get mugged but that's the chance one takes.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
I think you are defending the business practices of people who know good and well (and likely have reports and studies on it) how many people will forget/neglect to click non-renew. They are relying on it. They are profiting from it.
This nonsense about adults and responsibilities and all that type of jazz is for the birds. People can disagree about business ethics without one person having to be the non-adult.
For example, pickpockets touch or bump you as a distraction while taking your belongings. When I lived in Manhattan, I got in the habit of checking my wallet every single time anybody touched me. It's over 30 years later, and I no longer live in Manhattan, but I still do that.
But it sucks. And it doesn't mean every victim of a pickpocket deserves what they get just because they aren't as careful as I am. The pickpocket is still to blame.
But Scientologists, Libertarians and other fringe wackos don't want any laws or regulations you know.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
I mean, I can take precautions and still get mugged but that's the chance one takes.
I'm saying that you not being in a constant state of hyper-vigilance against those who who seek to take advantage of you does not make you deserving of any misfortune that comes your way.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
I mean, I can take precautions and still get mugged but that's the chance one takes.
I'm saying that you not being in a constant state of hyper-vigilance against those who who seek to take advantage of you does not make you deserving of any misfortune that comes your way.
I don't disagree. I don't think people should have to live that way at all. It's horrible. But short of being able to abolish it through "some means I don't know about" I just take precaustions or else remove myself from the situation.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
I'm first in line when it's time to bash any shady or greedy move, but how could this be unethical, it's beyond me. Or maybe I'm just among the few lucky ones who never had this issue over the years, especially in games. They always have easy ways to cancel, minus the occasional psychological pressure, like the sad, despaired Gandalf on the screen where you cancel, haha.
It could be unethical, if they'd make the cancel unnecessarily hard or annoying, like it's only possible during APAC timezone launch break times, for an hour, and in person, with 3 pages of filled documents... sure, I'd agree that's unethical and exploiting their position. Hell, they could even pull the Maria card https://youtu.be/-_LM2ZlbmP8
Has anyone quoted "caveat emptor" yet? I don't think it's scummy if the option is up to me and I choose it. We have devices or old fashioned calendars we can add reminders to cancel if needed. If it's the only option, then yeah, maybe we're encroaching on scummy because the Dev is praying on lazy human nature.
Everyone pays the price for everyone else's laziness/bad choices though no matter what slogans people want to use. We're only as strong as the weakest/slowest in our herd, and either have to plan accordingly or deal with the mess afterward, if any are left alive to do so.
We can't slap cigarettes/vapes/cheese burgers/insert opioid here ____ out of peeps' hands no matter how much we want to, but all of those issues impact us/our wallets.
Is it more inconvenient to resub every month or lose a few months money over it? Choice is usually yours. It's happened to me. My 6-month sub to SWTOR renewed and I forgot all about it, so when I did finally realize it, I reached out to Customer Service, and they refunded me.
I also got a WoW sub for 6 months for a boat that didn't even float. You would think a flying boat could float at the least.... Scumbags!
I'm saying that you not being in a constant state of hyper-vigilance against those who who seek to take advantage of you
...and stupid people are easily taken advantage of, that is why they need those retarded laws. Right...?
Yeah we should just let the strong get rid of the weak and then we can start on the defectives... the master race at last!
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
No victim of pickpocketing deserves what they get. But what would you do then? When I go to New York my wallet is in my front pocket. All the time. I'm not going stop people from being thieves but my choices are: get pickpocketed, take precautions to minimize the chance of pickpocketing, not go to New York.
I mean, I can take precautions and still get mugged but that's the chance one takes.
Perhaps the victim mentality is the problem here. You aren't a victim if you sign up for something and forget to cancel. You would be a victim if they started charging you for no reason... which is already illegal.
But Scientologists, Libertarians and other fringe wackos don't want any laws or regulations you know.
There's a difference between not wanting any laws and wanting laws that protect you from yourself and can be avoided by being responsible.
Yeah those awful laws like mandatory universal health care in almost all 1st world countries except the US, mandatory sprinklers in new building construction, mandatory seat belts and helmets... awful, awful stuff.
There's also a difference between up front transparent financial transactions and the deliberately inconvenient ones no matter how small that inconvenience might be.
Your inane over-emphasis on personal responsibility just lets any and all business practices off the hook as long as no one has bothered to make a regulation against it yet.
That's not being and adult, that's just being dumb.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
"I can't handling my own finances and therefore corporates are evil". Do you also blame others if you forget to pay your bills?
EXACTLY!! people complain about govt always sticking their nose in peoples business, but it sounds to me like people here want someone to take care of them cus they cant do it themselves.
How do people "forget" to cancel an MMORPG subscription? Do you quit a game and not realize that you've quit it? How does that happen? Do you forget that it was a subscription game and think it had been free to play all along? Or do you just find it too much of a bother to go cancel the subscription, even though you're aware that you need to?
So you're saying that people don't forget and the only reason subs have been historically auto-recurring is because they provide a better service for people that would otherwise be bothered by the inconvenience of having to manually renew - people who perhaps would otherwise forget to manually renew although apparently, no one ever forgets to cancel lol.
The shit you guys come up with to defend dodgy business practices is amazing.
ive forgotten to cancel a sub that went for over a year. its only $15 a month. not that big of a deal. if it is, time to rethink priorities.
If you want consumer friendly laws then you need to support consumer friendly lawmakers.
Don't assume that if you can ban the business model that you don't like, companies will move to a different one that you do. Instead, they'll move to a different business model that you also don't like--and possibly find even worse than the original.
If you cripple revenue from selling games by requiring companies to allow you to resell a used copy of a digital game, then they'll move away from selling games entirely. I don't know exactly what they'd do, but it could easily be something along the lines of renting games, where instead of paying once to have access forever, you have to pay a monthly fee to keep access.
There is a U.S. federal law called the CAN-SPAM Act. It regulates e-mail solicitations. One of its requirements is that an e-mail ad must include an "easy opt-out option." That is why you see the "unsubscribe" link on spam you get, which, if used, is supposed to remove you from their mailing list.
That is an example of a law taking into account the needs of business (to advertise their goods and services) and the needs of consumers (to be free from spam). Laws don't have to be oppressive or one sided. And they are enacted in furtherance of the general welfare, not just sellers and not just buyers.
But, there are always some scummy companies who do things like put "unsubscribe" in micro text or in the same color as the background, so you can't find it to click on it. And THAT would be an example of an unethical business practice (as well as a possible violation of the Act). It is not "adult" behavior on the company's part when they try to evade the law and deceive e-mail recipients. And it is not a lack of "responsibility" when a consumer doesn't see the hidden text.
So that is my point really. Accept it or reject it. Either way my work here is done I believe. This thread is getting a bit chippy for my tastes.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
Comments
Again, this isn't a "real" issue for me as I just deal with it. But if it's really a larger issue that should be addressed then let's do it.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
This nonsense about adults and responsibilities and all that type of jazz is for the birds. People can disagree about business ethics without one person having to be the non-adult.
For example, pickpockets touch or bump you as a distraction while taking your belongings. When I lived in Manhattan, I got in the habit of checking my wallet every single time anybody touched me. It's over 30 years later, and I no longer live in Manhattan, but I still do that.
But it sucks. And it doesn't mean every victim of a pickpocket deserves what they get just because they aren't as careful as I am. The pickpocket is still to blame.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
I mean, I can take precautions and still get mugged but that's the chance one takes.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Everyone pays the price for everyone else's laziness/bad choices though no matter what slogans people want to use. We're only as strong as the weakest/slowest in our herd, and either have to plan accordingly or deal with the mess afterward, if any are left alive to do so.
We can't slap cigarettes/vapes/cheese burgers/insert opioid here ____ out of peeps' hands no matter how much we want to, but all of those issues impact us/our wallets.
Is it more inconvenient to resub every month or lose a few months money over it? Choice is usually yours. It's happened to me. My 6-month sub to SWTOR renewed and I forgot all about it, so when I did finally realize it, I reached out to Customer Service, and they refunded me.
I also got a WoW sub for 6 months for a boat that didn't even float. You would think a flying boat could float at the least.... Scumbags!
We're our own worst enemies.
Gut Out!
What, me worry?
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
There's also a difference between up front transparent financial transactions and the deliberately inconvenient ones no matter how small that inconvenience might be.
Your inane over-emphasis on personal responsibility just lets any and all business practices off the hook as long as no one has bothered to make a regulation against it yet.
That's not being and adult, that's just being dumb.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
On the same note, luckily in Oregon, there is an exempt for fish in aquariums so you can take them in!
If you cripple revenue from selling games by requiring companies to allow you to resell a used copy of a digital game, then they'll move away from selling games entirely. I don't know exactly what they'd do, but it could easily be something along the lines of renting games, where instead of paying once to have access forever, you have to pay a monthly fee to keep access.
That is an example of a law taking into account the needs of business (to advertise their goods and services) and the needs of consumers (to be free from spam). Laws don't have to be oppressive or one sided. And they are enacted in furtherance of the general welfare, not just sellers and not just buyers.
But, there are always some scummy companies who do things like put "unsubscribe" in micro text or in the same color as the background, so you can't find it to click on it. And THAT would be an example of an unethical business practice (as well as a possible violation of the Act). It is not "adult" behavior on the company's part when they try to evade the law and deceive e-mail recipients. And it is not a lack of "responsibility" when a consumer doesn't see the hidden text.
So that is my point really. Accept it or reject it. Either way my work here is done I believe. This thread is getting a bit chippy for my tastes.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests