Safe areas . . . For PvE without risk Neutral areas . . . For PvE with PvP but not full loot Unsafe areas . . . For PvE with PvP full loot.
Key thing is to tie top gear that depends on items from all areas and to make the areas interdependant.
So people can enjoy any type of playstyle.
Raids in safe areas, territory fights in neutral areas, global politics in unsafe areas and high risk/reward.
It's simple. The areas where there's pvp always has the best stuff. You're solving nothing by having "safe" areas when those players will eventually be forced to go there to progress.
I think the reason this worked so well in Eve is that the unsafe areas were so massive you could hide and make a profit, yes there was risk but it was pretty easy to get a good haul of Ore out of null sec.
If you want a new idea, go read an old book.
In order to be insulted, I must first value your opinion.
When I hear someone complain about too much PvP in an MMO all I hear is "I'm an effeminate man who seeks out the embrace of other effeminate men." I'm not judging, just characterizing.
When I see comments denigrating PVE players that dislike PVP, I wonder if the person behind the keyboard has every trained or had any amateur fights or just anything in that realm. I've done both and I dislike PVP, usually due to the fully ego'd out personalities I am forced to deal with. I'd really rather just turn them into broken pretzels to be honest about it. Do I seem effeminate to you?
If that was meant sarcastically - this is spot on. Exactly what PvP players complaining about PvE players being sissies sound like.
Mordhau PvP is a blast with a high skill learning curve. Implement that in new world and I will check it out.
But you'll still wander around aimlessly searching for someone toggled on.
And the alternative to that would be wandering around aimlessly trying to find someone at all because people would not play the game at all. What you are complaining about in reality is more players playing the damned game.
Speak for yourself. As it seems there was a lot of people wanting the game for what it was.
You are literally arguing with mathematics - in a system where everyone tags themselves for PvP the PvP players are tagged for PvP and the PvE players are not tagged for PvP. In a system where there is a forced open world PvP there are no PvE players really. So if you are wandering around aimlessly searching for someone with PvP toggled on in a mixed game then in a PvP only game you would just be going around aimlessly searching for anyone. And while a PvE player who dabbles in PvP could potentially wander around a PvP-only game the same player is infinitely more likely to turn on PvP in a toggled-to-PvP game with PvE content.
It is NOT about catering to anyone,it is about common sense.I am not going to for the millionth time explain why the two cannot co exist.Anyone who has gamed for a long time and paid attention to what goes on would know they cannot exist together.
However in saying that,most would agree that it seems logical pvp should exist in a game world if we are going for immersion.The problem is that pvp is the ONE aspect of immersion that cannot be done well enough to exist,it will only exist in these games because it draws a few more consumers.
One thing i always wondered about is WHY all these so called die hard fans of pvp want or tel us they NEED pvp in these rpg type games?A rpg platform is NOT the best avenue for the best pvp,so are all you telling me you don't really want the best pvp just any old sloppy form of?
I just wanted to touch on a few of these points and give you a different perspective.
First, I fundamentally disagree that PvP and PvE cannot co-exist in the same MMORPG. I agree that it is rare that they can co-exist, but I disagree that they can never co-exist. The reason I believe this to be the case is that most MMORPGs are still designed around single player mechanics, like linear stories and vertical progression. It is these mechanics that cause the fundamental problems with MMORPG PvP, but once developers move past single player mechanics then I believe the issues of including both playstyles will be much easier to solve.
For the record, I also believe that these single player mechanics are also the root cause of many of the problems in the PvE community too. However, the problems they cause are more subtle in the PvE community (e.g. vertical progression makes it harder to play with friends).
Second, about your point on why we want to PvP in an RPG. I am not what you would call a die hard PvP fan, yet I will not play an MMORPG unless it has PvP. I don't play PvP in any other genre, as I dislike shooters and MOBAs are just shallow garbage. I do enjoy local PvP (split screen) but thats about it. I will try to give you my thinking behind this, not saying im right or you need to change your mind, I just want to give you another perspective.
I play for FUN, not to RELAX. In order to have fun, I need the challenge level to be equal to my perceived skill level. This means that when I start an MMO, I start with the easy solo content. Then I move on to challenging solo content, then easy group content, then hard group content and larger groups. As my skill level grows, I need the challenge to grow too. PvP is the pinacle of that challenge curve and is the only place where I am guaranteed to find a challenge I cannot beat (because there are always better players than me). Now, if your skill level never gets that high then PvP isnt needed, but if it does then having PvP is essential for long term enjoyment.
PvP is where I personally do the most roleplaying. I wouldn't class myself as a roleplayer, but PvP is where I feel I roleplay the most. I roleplay through my actions, rather than my words, and I also act out my role within the PvP community (which is probably at odds with the lore). For example, I've met so many PvPers who deliberately act the villian, or hero, despite it having no gameplay or progression benefits. They (and I) do it to add context and enjoyment to the PvP. The amount of times I've done suicide runs on my orc, just to kill that one specific person, is very large. It serves no purpose, doesn't benefit me mechanically, but its me acting out the role of a rage-filled orc.
PvP is usually the only Massively Multiplayer feature in the game. Just think about it: where else in your MMO does you actually have to interact (play...) with a large amount of players? Its the unique selling point of the whole damn genre, yet PvP is typically the only feature that makes use of it. That sense of scale is why I like the genre, it's the main selling point for me, so without it why would I bother?
Whilst the challenge level is high in PvP, I find it to be the least stressful / pressured. If I'm doing group content, or leading a raid, or leveling up, then there is always a clear goal, clear responsibilities and some pressure. If I'm leading a raid and we wipe, theres a lot of people looking at me to make it better. In PvP, there's usually no consequences. We expect to die! So, the pressure comes off and I can focus purely on having fun and making sure I play to the best of my ability, enjoying the randomness and rapidly varying challenges.
Beyond that, I simply get attached to my characters in an MMORPG, and that attachment increases my enjoyment of the PvP. I also get attached to my allies and enemies. Before megaservers and cross-server bollocks, I would get to know the PvP community. I'd have favourite allies and favourite enemies. I'd go out of my way to kill certain people, but then I'd go easy on others. This all increases the engagement with the PvP, and increases the roleplay opportunities. If I was just a random person fighting random enemies, all of that goes straight out the window.
The TL;DR version:
I want ROLEPLAY PvP, I do not want "PURE" PvP.
I am thus willing to put up with the downsides of MMORPG PvP, because "pure" PvP games simply cannot provide me with what I enjoy.
Currently Playing: WAR RoR - Spitt rr7X Black Orc | Scrotling rr6X Squig Herder | Scabrous rr4X Shaman
LoL m8s i hope combat mechanics of the game will worth the time invested on the posts here, with the latest pvp-pve overhaul just before few months prior launch,it looks like John Smedley started to get his dirty hands on New World because this is his type of signature move, like in SWG,H1Z1,PS2,VG and other ruined titles.
It is NOT about catering to anyone,it is about common sense.I am not going to for the millionth time explain why the two cannot co exist.Anyone who has gamed for a long time and paid attention to what goes on would know they cannot exist together.
However in saying that,most would agree that it seems logical pvp should exist in a game world if we are going for immersion.The problem is that pvp is the ONE aspect of immersion that cannot be done well enough to exist,it will only exist in these games because it draws a few more consumers.
One thing i always wondered about is WHY all these so called die hard fans of pvp want or tel us they NEED pvp in these rpg type games?A rpg platform is NOT the best avenue for the best pvp,so are all you telling me you don't really want the best pvp just any old sloppy form of?
I just wanted to touch on a few of these points and give you a different perspective.
First, I fundamentally disagree that PvP and PvE cannot co-exist in the same MMORPG. I agree that it is rare that they can co-exist, but I disagree that they can never co-exist. The reason I believe this to be the case is that most MMORPGs are still designed around single player mechanics, like linear stories and vertical progression. It is these mechanics that cause the fundamental problems with MMORPG PvP, but once developers move past single player mechanics then I believe the issues of including both playstyles will be much easier to solve.
For the record, I also believe that these single player mechanics are also the root cause of many of the problems in the PvE community too. However, the problems they cause are more subtle in the PvE community (e.g. vertical progression makes it harder to play with friends).
Second, about your point on why we want to PvP in an RPG. I am not what you would call a die hard PvP fan, yet I will not play an MMORPG unless it has PvP. I don't play PvP in any other genre, as I dislike shooters and MOBAs are just shallow garbage. I do enjoy local PvP (split screen) but thats about it. I will try to give you my thinking behind this, not saying im right or you need to change your mind, I just want to give you another perspective.
I play for FUN, not to RELAX. In order to have fun, I need the challenge level to be equal to my perceived skill level. This means that when I start an MMO, I start with the easy solo content. Then I move on to challenging solo content, then easy group content, then hard group content and larger groups. As my skill level grows, I need the challenge to grow too. PvP is the pinacle of that challenge curve and is the only place where I am guaranteed to find a challenge I cannot beat (because there are always better players than me). Now, if your skill level never gets that high then PvP isnt needed, but if it does then having PvP is essential for long term enjoyment.
PvP is where I personally do the most roleplaying. I wouldn't class myself as a roleplayer, but PvP is where I feel I roleplay the most. I roleplay through my actions, rather than my words, and I also act out my role within the PvP community (which is probably at odds with the lore). For example, I've met so many PvPers who deliberately act the villian, or hero, despite it having no gameplay or progression benefits. They (and I) do it to add context and enjoyment to the PvP. The amount of times I've done suicide runs on my orc, just to kill that one specific person, is very large. It serves no purpose, doesn't benefit me mechanically, but its me acting out the role of a rage-filled orc.
PvP is usually the only Massively Multiplayer feature in the game. Just think about it: where else in your MMO does you actually have to interact (play...) with a large amount of players? Its the unique selling point of the whole damn genre, yet PvP is typically the only feature that makes use of it. That sense of scale is why I like the genre, it's the main selling point for me, so without it why would I bother?
Whilst the challenge level is high in PvP, I find it to be the least stressful / pressured. If I'm doing group content, or leading a raid, or leveling up, then there is always a clear goal, clear responsibilities and some pressure. If I'm leading a raid and we wipe, theres a lot of people looking at me to make it better. In PvP, there's usually no consequences. We expect to die! So, the pressure comes off and I can focus purely on having fun and making sure I play to the best of my ability, enjoying the randomness and rapidly varying challenges.
Beyond that, I simply get attached to my characters in an MMORPG, and that attachment increases my enjoyment of the PvP. I also get attached to my allies and enemies. Before megaservers and cross-server bollocks, I would get to know the PvP community. I'd have favourite allies and favourite enemies. I'd go out of my way to kill certain people, but then I'd go easy on others. This all increases the engagement with the PvP, and increases the roleplay opportunities. If I was just a random person fighting random enemies, all of that goes straight out the window.
The TL;DR version:
I want ROLEPLAY PvP, I do not want "PURE" PvP.
I am thus willing to put up with the downsides of MMORPG PvP, because "pure" PvP games simply cannot provide me with what I enjoy.
Both PvE and PvP can lay claim to role playing, and it exists on both sides of the equation. You want ROLEPLAY PvP, I want ROLEPLAY PvE.
I want to go to the temple and discuss with the priests if I offended any gods when I picked a strange mushroom in the forest yesterday. I want to avoid the taxman when I've got a bit of extra coin in my pocket. I want to sit in a tavern, listen to a bard, and wonder why everyone is out hunting in this weather? It's cold. It's rainy. It's miserable out, and there's a nice fire in here. The wolves and orcs are everywhere, they'll still be there when the sun comes out.
I need the decisions my character makes to have some kind of weight, maybe not on anything beyond myself. Consequences are good, too, as long as everything isn't known in advance. Uncertainty is more interesting than a known commodity. "Maybe if I kill this one wolf pup, I'll learn something" is far better than "If I kill 20 wolf pups, I'll be level 2".
There are downsides to MMORPG PvE, too. Mostly that everyone rushes everywhere to fight that next mob and loot another 7 copper bits. Everyone is too busy with their own goals to be interested in what else might be going on around them. I expect their minds' think they're playing a solo game.
I don't need to be someone else's content too. I've got enough to deal with.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Majority of players in MMORPG play MMORPG because they are PvE players. Look on Black Desert, majority people there doesn't give a f about PvP, they just play it like PvE game. If they want play PvP, they go play BF or PUBG. Most people wants, good story, lots of nice loot/items and great dungeons and that's it. PvP in MMORPG is overrated and PvP players self will in most cases not keep the game and servers online. Focus on PvE and game can be successful, because if its good PvE players will pay for it.
That's not even remotely true, there is a very large pvp focused mmo crowd. It's just that the lack of good mmo pvp options, whether it be new titles or stale/repetitive pvp content in old mmo's has led to mmo pvpers needing to look elsewhere in recent years. This has led to many mmo pvpers playing battle royales as you mentioned. Yet, we still play mmo's or are willing to play new ones that cater to our interests.
Yea, because on the rare occassion a pvp focused game comes out that is open world, carebears for some reason decide to play it, and then complain about the pvp, and scream until devs dumb down the game, and then the game dies.
Usually there are other factors that attribute to a games death. Most times it was already in its death-throws.
Case in point, Aion. They tied character advancement to PvP in the Abys, thing is no one but PKers were there most times and it was hard to get a group together to do content there because even though people don't mind PvP, it was a headache to get anything done and took longer because of the few who wanted to stop anyone from progressing at all. Not only was that aspect shat, the game was grindy AF and we paid a sub for it. Eventually folks realized they could spend there time elsewhere and the game went f2p and is pretty much dead now.
SWG, when they did the galactic civil war update that allowed you to attack Storm troopers with no TEF penalty, but also added battlegrounds for owpvp. People were angry and said they would leave, eventually no one cared and went back to their business, but the game died for other reasons. The battlegrounds were popular for a few weeks and eventually no one cared.
BDO level 49 pvp quest. For years folks wanted that enabled as a buffer like it was in the Korean version. Most PKrs cried about how they would leave the game if that was enabled. Eventually it was, yet there was no player uprising like they touted and people continue to filter in an out of that game none the wiser. Most of the PKrs were banned for speed hacking anyways (you can find plenty of videos on that)
I imagine most of the folks complaining such as yourself are the vocal minority at this point and the games success or failure is not tied to whether you have the ability to opt into pvp or not.
I remember years ago while Darkfall was in development how some people thought it was going to be the best game for owpvp, and it would beat WoW because of course everyone loves being PKed when on a PvE quest. Well we can see how that worked out.
There seems to be two core groups at odds with some of us stuck in the middle. Those who don't PvP, and those who only want PvP, and then us in the middle who pvp but don't feel the need to enforce our playstyle onto everyone else while getting shouted down by both sides.
Amazon was smart not to remove PvP all together and take the middle ground. Make it an option that you can enable on the fly. You now have a choice as to how you want to play their game.
There was a time when player looting was a thing, I was there. At the time it was how it was, so we just dealt with it. We all had moments of frustration over losing shit in a heated battle. This isn't one of those games were you lose days of work in one bad moment, no big deal. Play it or don't, no one will care.
Lol, no one ever said that "Darkfall would beat WOW." That's a complete non-sequitur. They aren't even in the same realm of mmo's. I played Darkfall from launch to when it almost died. The game started to get boring when they installed instant travel portals, and it made the open world trivial, then big all the big guilds nut-cupped and warring stopped. This is when people stopped playing.
People who like wow's instanced gameplay would not like this style. Maybe they are the gamers that went to DF and complained that travelling took too long, so asked for it to be dumbed down and ruin the game.
New World pvp mechanic will be exploited terribly. No one will ever opt in when it is not in their advantage to do so. This game will flop hard, due to its exploitable mechanics.
Loved EQ Classic and hates that carebears had it changed.
Majority of players in MMORPG play MMORPG because they are PvE players. Look on Black Desert, majority people there doesn't give a f about PvP, they just play it like PvE game. If they want play PvP, they go play BF or PUBG. Most people wants, good story, lots of nice loot/items and great dungeons and that's it. PvP in MMORPG is overrated and PvP players self will in most cases not keep the game and servers online. Focus on PvE and game can be successful, because if its good PvE players will pay for it.
That's not even remotely true, there is a very large pvp focused mmo crowd. It's just that the lack of good mmo pvp options, whether it be new titles or stale/repetitive pvp content in old mmo's has led to mmo pvpers needing to look elsewhere in recent years. This has led to many mmo pvpers playing battle royales as you mentioned. Yet, we still play mmo's or are willing to play new ones that cater to our interests.
Yea, because on the rare occassion a pvp focused game comes out that is open world, carebears for some reason decide to play it, and then complain about the pvp, and scream until devs dumb down the game, and then the game dies.
Usually there are other factors that attribute to a games death. Most times it was already in its death-throws.
Case in point, Aion. They tied character advancement to PvP in the Abys, thing is no one but PKers were there most times and it was hard to get a group together to do content there because even though people don't mind PvP, it was a headache to get anything done and took longer because of the few who wanted to stop anyone from progressing at all. Not only was that aspect shat, the game was grindy AF and we paid a sub for it. Eventually folks realized they could spend there time elsewhere and the game went f2p and is pretty much dead now.
SWG, when they did the galactic civil war update that allowed you to attack Storm troopers with no TEF penalty, but also added battlegrounds for owpvp. People were angry and said they would leave, eventually no one cared and went back to their business, but the game died for other reasons. The battlegrounds were popular for a few weeks and eventually no one cared.
BDO level 49 pvp quest. For years folks wanted that enabled as a buffer like it was in the Korean version. Most PKrs cried about how they would leave the game if that was enabled. Eventually it was, yet there was no player uprising like they touted and people continue to filter in an out of that game none the wiser. Most of the PKrs were banned for speed hacking anyways (you can find plenty of videos on that)
I imagine most of the folks complaining such as yourself are the vocal minority at this point and the games success or failure is not tied to whether you have the ability to opt into pvp or not.
I remember years ago while Darkfall was in development how some people thought it was going to be the best game for owpvp, and it would beat WoW because of course everyone loves being PKed when on a PvE quest. Well we can see how that worked out.
There seems to be two core groups at odds with some of us stuck in the middle. Those who don't PvP, and those who only want PvP, and then us in the middle who pvp but don't feel the need to enforce our playstyle onto everyone else while getting shouted down by both sides.
Amazon was smart not to remove PvP all together and take the middle ground. Make it an option that you can enable on the fly. You now have a choice as to how you want to play their game.
There was a time when player looting was a thing, I was there. At the time it was how it was, so we just dealt with it. We all had moments of frustration over losing shit in a heated battle. This isn't one of those games were you lose days of work in one bad moment, no big deal. Play it or don't, no one will care.
Lol, no one ever said that "Darkfall would beat WOW." That's a complete non-sequitur. They aren't even in the same realm of mmo's. I played Darkfall from launch to when it almost died. The game started to get boring when they installed instant travel portals, and it made the open world trivial, then big all the big guilds nut-cupped and warring stopped. This is when people stopped playing.
People who like wow's instanced gameplay would not like this style. Maybe they are the gamers that went to DF and complained that travelling took too long, so asked for it to be dumbed down and ruin the game.
New World pvp mechanic will be exploited terribly. No one will ever opt in when it is not in their advantage to do so. This game will flop hard, due to its exploitable mechanics.
Well, if "no one ever opts in unless it benefits them", I guess we can agree that the PVP-only crowd is a substantial vocal minority, right?
If the game flops because there aren't enough of you, we can finally put that argument to rest.....
Majority of players in MMORPG play MMORPG because they are PvE players. Look on Black Desert, majority people there doesn't give a f about PvP, they just play it like PvE game. If they want play PvP, they go play BF or PUBG. Most people wants, good story, lots of nice loot/items and great dungeons and that's it. PvP in MMORPG is overrated and PvP players self will in most cases not keep the game and servers online. Focus on PvE and game can be successful, because if its good PvE players will pay for it.
That's not even remotely true, there is a very large pvp focused mmo crowd. It's just that the lack of good mmo pvp options, whether it be new titles or stale/repetitive pvp content in old mmo's has led to mmo pvpers needing to look elsewhere in recent years. This has led to many mmo pvpers playing battle royales as you mentioned. Yet, we still play mmo's or are willing to play new ones that cater to our interests.
Yea, because on the rare occassion a pvp focused game comes out that is open world, carebears for some reason decide to play it, and then complain about the pvp, and scream until devs dumb down the game, and then the game dies.
Usually there are other factors that attribute to a games death. Most times it was already in its death-throws.
Case in point, Aion. They tied character advancement to PvP in the Abys, thing is no one but PKers were there most times and it was hard to get a group together to do content there because even though people don't mind PvP, it was a headache to get anything done and took longer because of the few who wanted to stop anyone from progressing at all. Not only was that aspect shat, the game was grindy AF and we paid a sub for it. Eventually folks realized they could spend there time elsewhere and the game went f2p and is pretty much dead now.
SWG, when they did the galactic civil war update that allowed you to attack Storm troopers with no TEF penalty, but also added battlegrounds for owpvp. People were angry and said they would leave, eventually no one cared and went back to their business, but the game died for other reasons. The battlegrounds were popular for a few weeks and eventually no one cared.
BDO level 49 pvp quest. For years folks wanted that enabled as a buffer like it was in the Korean version. Most PKrs cried about how they would leave the game if that was enabled. Eventually it was, yet there was no player uprising like they touted and people continue to filter in an out of that game none the wiser. Most of the PKrs were banned for speed hacking anyways (you can find plenty of videos on that)
I imagine most of the folks complaining such as yourself are the vocal minority at this point and the games success or failure is not tied to whether you have the ability to opt into pvp or not.
I remember years ago while Darkfall was in development how some people thought it was going to be the best game for owpvp, and it would beat WoW because of course everyone loves being PKed when on a PvE quest. Well we can see how that worked out.
There seems to be two core groups at odds with some of us stuck in the middle. Those who don't PvP, and those who only want PvP, and then us in the middle who pvp but don't feel the need to enforce our playstyle onto everyone else while getting shouted down by both sides.
Amazon was smart not to remove PvP all together and take the middle ground. Make it an option that you can enable on the fly. You now have a choice as to how you want to play their game.
There was a time when player looting was a thing, I was there. At the time it was how it was, so we just dealt with it. We all had moments of frustration over losing shit in a heated battle. This isn't one of those games were you lose days of work in one bad moment, no big deal. Play it or don't, no one will care.
Lol, no one ever said that "Darkfall would beat WOW." That's a complete non-sequitur. They aren't even in the same realm of mmo's. I played Darkfall from launch to when it almost died. The game started to get boring when they installed instant travel portals, and it made the open world trivial, then big all the big guilds nut-cupped and warring stopped. This is when people stopped playing.
People who like wow's instanced gameplay would not like this style. Maybe they are the gamers that went to DF and complained that travelling took too long, so asked for it to be dumbed down and ruin the game.
New World pvp mechanic will be exploited terribly. No one will ever opt in when it is not in their advantage to do so. This game will flop hard, due to its exploitable mechanics.
Well, if "no one ever opts in unless it benefits them", I guess we can agree that the PVP-only crowd is a substantial vocal minority, right?
If the game flops because there aren't enough of you, we can finally put that argument to rest.....
No, you're totally missing the point. People will follow the meta, which would be flagged off when harvesting in areas that are supposed to be high risk high reward. If this is not the case, and people can gather high reward items with no risk, the economy will be ruined due to everyone having top gear pretty quickly. The game was designed for pvp, and now with flags you have a game where no one will have it on, unless they will have favorable numbers and prepared for a fight. This game doesn't have the pve content nor lore to sustain interest from solely pve players. The game is now an abomination and is going to fail unless they delay the game and fundamentally change it to be a pve game. Then it can become a themepark game like all of the other generic pve games out there but with an Amazon label on it.
Loved EQ Classic and hates that carebears had it changed.
Safe areas . . . For PvE without risk Neutral areas . . . For PvE with PvP but not full loot Unsafe areas . . . For PvE with PvP full loot.
Key thing is to tie top gear that depends on items from all areas and to make the areas interdependant.
So people can enjoy any type of playstyle.
Raids in safe areas, territory fights in neutral areas, global politics in unsafe areas and high risk/reward.
It's simple. The areas where there's pvp always has the best stuff. You're solving nothing by having "safe" areas when those players will eventually be forced to go there to progress.
The key part is to make all areas interdependent.
Essentially to progress your character you need stuff from all 3 zones to fully progress, any person can find their niche in any zone.
Safe areas for example with raids can get top armor. Middle area is for weapons/mounts, unsafe area is jewelry. Then you can have battlegrounds and arenas in certain areas that yield top potions . . . Etc.
Hence, a player could live in one area and trade in markets for anything they need.
EVE does a great job of allowing people to thrive in all locations and not be blocked in advancement. Every thing in EVE you do is valuable in some way because it usually produces something that someone needs.
Catch me streaming at twitch.tv/cryomatrix You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations.
Safe areas . . . For PvE without risk Neutral areas . . . For PvE with PvP but not full loot Unsafe areas . . . For PvE with PvP full loot.
Key thing is to tie top gear that depends on items from all areas and to make the areas interdependant.
So people can enjoy any type of playstyle.
Raids in safe areas, territory fights in neutral areas, global politics in unsafe areas and high risk/reward.
It's simple. The areas where there's pvp always has the best stuff. You're solving nothing by having "safe" areas when those players will eventually be forced to go there to progress.
The key part is to make all areas interdependent.
Essentially to progress your character you need stuff from all 3 zones to fully progress, any person can find their niche in any zone.
Safe areas for example with raids can get top armor. Middle area is for weapons/mounts, unsafe area is jewelry. Then you can have battlegrounds and arenas in certain areas that yield top potions . . . Etc.
Hence, a player could live in one area and trade in markets for anything they need.
EVE does a great job of allowing people to thrive in all locations and not be blocked in advancement. Every thing in EVE you do is valuable in some way because it usually produces something that someone needs.
Well that still forces different playstyles into areas they won't want to do.
So i digress. That is not the best solution for me.
I'd wager that they had a lot of data to support their decision. The open world pvp gang have no one to blame but themselves if the data showed that people used the format to repeatedly target new and low level players.
I'm perfectly willing to do realm vs realm pvp, but I won't touch open world pvp with a bargepole. I prefer actual competition, thank you very much, not having the gear advantages from MMO leveling used to one shot some new player trying to harvest herbs.
There is just a basic conflict between the structure of a MMO, where extended play makes characters stronger, and pvp, where matches that are fun for both players are even. Add in the open world ambush factor, and gangpiles, and you have a style of play that no one likes to be subjected to.
Given the resources going into the game, I suspect that there will be plenty of pve content on release. They may fail anyhow with these changes, but I might give it a try. No way I'll even do a free download of a gankbox.
Safe areas . . . For PvE without risk Neutral areas . . . For PvE with PvP but not full loot Unsafe areas . . . For PvE with PvP full loot.
Key thing is to tie top gear that depends on items from all areas and to make the areas interdependant.
So people can enjoy any type of playstyle.
Raids in safe areas, territory fights in neutral areas, global politics in unsafe areas and high risk/reward.
It's simple. The areas where there's pvp always has the best stuff. You're solving nothing by having "safe" areas when those players will eventually be forced to go there to progress.
The key part is to make all areas interdependent.
Essentially to progress your character you need stuff from all 3 zones to fully progress, any person can find their niche in any zone.
Safe areas for example with raids can get top armor. Middle area is for weapons/mounts, unsafe area is jewelry. Then you can have battlegrounds and arenas in certain areas that yield top potions . . . Etc.
Hence, a player could live in one area and trade in markets for anything they need.
EVE does a great job of allowing people to thrive in all locations and not be blocked in advancement. Every thing in EVE you do is valuable in some way because it usually produces something that someone needs.
Knight Online did that. It was a shit game. Sorry, forcing people to do things they don't want to do is bad. I think the best they can do is what GW1 and GW2 do, PvP in arenas with everyone at the same equipment level. It makes skill much more important.
You know what’s really funny? Every time I hear someone say I don’t like wpvp because I prefer real skill, real competition. Pure comedy.
I find it funny when people with huge in game advantages pretend that they're interested in actual competition. I play plenty of competitive board games, none of which involve giving one player a much better starting position than others.
You know what’s really funny? Every time I hear someone say I don’t like wpvp because I prefer real skill, real competition. Pure comedy.
I find it funny when people with huge in game advantages pretend that they're interested in actual competition. I play plenty of competitive board games, none of which involve giving one player a much better starting position than others.
Everyone has the same starting position, some people just make it to the end faster.
I get what mcbully is saying. There will always be an advantage for someone. Sometimes you have the advantage, sometimes it's your opponent. Waiting for a fair fight is silly.
I also get what you are saying. It sucks when the only world you have to PvE in is riddled with people who want to PvP.
I don't see what the big deal is. Turn on your pvp flag and kill yourselves to your hearts content. The pve people don't want to be bothered so don't turn on the flag. Or, just seperate servers. Win-Win-Win.
The problem is that actual PvPers don't care about being attacked or killed as much. And the people shouting the loudest about this flagging thing are the ones who are only interested in harassing someone they can actually upset with their antics.
My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)
You know what’s really funny? Every time I hear someone say I don’t like wpvp because I prefer real skill, real competition. Pure comedy.
I find it funny when people with huge in game advantages pretend that they're interested in actual competition. I play plenty of competitive board games, none of which involve giving one player a much better starting position than others.
Everyone has the same starting position, some people just make it to the end faster.
I get what mcbully is saying. There will always be an advantage for someone. Sometimes you have the advantage, sometimes it's your opponent. Waiting for a fair fight is silly.
I also get what you are saying. It sucks when the only world you have to PvE in is riddled with people who want to PvP.
You are both right.
The thing is that all different types of advantages are not equal nor do they necessarily happen organically. The classic unfair advantage that everyone focuses on is the much higher level ganker who deliberately and systematically seeks low level players to grief.
That's much different than the large group vs. small group advantage, the class / skill advantage - stealth being the classic advantage (and one of the things that ESO did right when they gave everyone stealth) or even level advantages when they happen organically in random encounters. That's just how PvP is in the types of games (RPGs) that have progression and that's OK.
PvP in MMO is not even-playing-field, shooter or BR PvP. Never was and never will be.
What people need to stop doing though is characterizing all MMO PvP as the calculated griefing that some asshats do or conversely denying that it's a significant problem. That type of griefing hurts PvP to the point that many players who could be attracted to PvP games just won't do it any more because that griefing is common enough, tolerated by PvP game developers apparently judging by their tiny wrist slapping schemes to curb it, and excused by the larger PvP community who should be extra motivated to weed out the asshats since it's the PvP games we like that are hurt by it.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
You know what’s really funny? Every time I hear someone say I don’t like wpvp because I prefer real skill, real competition. Pure comedy.
I find it funny when people with huge in game advantages pretend that they're interested in actual competition. I play plenty of competitive board games, none of which involve giving one player a much better starting position than others.
Everyone has the same starting position, some people just make it to the end faster.
I get what mcbully is saying. There will always be an advantage for someone. Sometimes you have the advantage, sometimes it's your opponent. Waiting for a fair fight is silly.
I also get what you are saying. It sucks when the only world you have to PvE in is riddled with people who want to PvP.
You are both right.
The thing is that all different types of advantages are not equal nor do they necessarily happen organically. The classic unfair advantage that everyone focuses on is the much higher level ganker who deliberately and systematically seeks low level players to grief.
That's much different than the large group vs. small group advantage, the class / skill advantage - stealth being the classic advantage (and one of the things that ESO did right when they gave everyone stealth) or even level advantages when they happen organically in random encounters. That's just how PvP is in the types of games (RPGs) that have progression and that's OK.
PvP in MMO is not even-playing-field, shooter or BR PvP. Never was and never will be.
What people need to stop doing though is characterizing all MMO PvP as the calculated griefing that some asshats do or conversely denying that it's a significant problem. That type of griefing hurts PvP to the point that many players who could be attracted to PvP games just won't do it any more because that griefing is common enough, tolerated by PvP game developers apparently judging by their tiny wrist slapping schemes to curb it, and excused by the larger PvP community who should be extra motivated to weed out the asshats since it's the PvP games we like that are hurt by it.
Which is why a game that has both PvP and PvE need to keep those worlds separate. A PvEer may dip his/her toes in PvP and like it if it was on their terms. Getting ganked while fighting a mob and gathering crafting materials sucks for most.
You know what’s really funny? Every time I hear someone say I don’t like wpvp because I prefer real skill, real competition. Pure comedy.
bcbully, just give it up man. You're never going to see any significant MMO with all open world, full loot PvP. You're wasting your time in the wrong genre. You have been for years. I mean, you're as free to post as any of us, but it's just painful to watch.
Well...the MMOs that focused exclusively on PVP haven't exactly done great...Darkfall; dead twice working on a third death, PlanetSide; died, PlanetSide 2; turned up MTX to 11 to get the last bit of cash before shutting down
....and, honestly, that's the only two games that come to mind that exclusively focused on PVP. The rest have focused on PVE with PVP attached to the side. Even EVE Online is focus(ing) on PVE.
Our greatest glory is not in never falling but in rising everytime we fall.
You know what’s really funny? Every time I hear someone say I don’t like wpvp because I prefer real skill, real competition. Pure comedy.
bcbully, just give it up man. You're never going to see any significant MMO with all open world, full loot PvP. You're wasting your time in the wrong genre. You have been for years. I mean, you're as free to post as any of us, but it's just painful to watch.
Give what up? I’ve never played a full loot mmorpg outside EVE for a week.
Wasting? Nah man I had the gaming experience ever (since 5) in Wushu ffa wold pvp. A wonderful way to wast time. I still remember the beautiful Individual city music.
You know what’s really funny? Every time I hear someone say I don’t like wpvp because I prefer real skill, real competition. Pure comedy.
bcbully, just give it up man. You're never going to see any significant MMO with all open world, full loot PvP. You're wasting your time in the wrong genre. You have been for years. I mean, you're as free to post as any of us, but it's just painful to watch.
Give what up? I’ve never played a full loot mmorpg outside EVE for a week.
Wasting? Nah man I had the gaming experience ever (since 5) in Wushu ffa wold pvp. A wonderful way to wast time. I still remember the beautiful Individual city music.
Not sure you even tried to rebut my comment.
Given that the industry (MMORPG) moved away from open-world pvp should be enough to refute any comment you've ever made in support to ow pvp.
If you still need to scratch that itch, there's like a hundred battle-royale games out there, lol. And they are a lot more fun than OW MMORPG PvP. Even I play Apex Legends as a main game right now due to limited free time lol.
Mordhau PvP is a blast with a high skill learning curve. Implement that in new world and I will check it out.
But you'll still wander around aimlessly searching for someone toggled on.
And the alternative to that would be wandering around aimlessly trying to find someone at all because people would not play the game at all. What you are complaining about in reality is more players playing the damned game.
Speak for yourself. As it seems there was a lot of people wanting the game for what it was.
You are literally arguing with mathematics - in a system where everyone tags themselves for PvP the PvP players are tagged for PvP and the PvE players are not tagged for PvP. In a system where there is a forced open world PvP there are no PvE players really. So if you are wandering around aimlessly searching for someone with PvP toggled on in a mixed game then in a PvP only game you would just be going around aimlessly searching for anyone. And while a PvE player who dabbles in PvP could potentially wander around a PvP-only game the same player is infinitely more likely to turn on PvP in a toggled-to-PvP game with PvE content.
No. I'm just saying nobody speaks for the whole gaming community. You can speak for yourself or show some actual data.
That issue, and many others you claim the game would have, without data, could be fixed simply by level design.
So level design will make people not quit the game when they are forced to do an activity they don't want to do? Or is level design magically going to increase the total number of players that want to PvP? What are you saying exactly?
Comments
If you want a new idea, go read an old book.
In order to be insulted, I must first value your opinion.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Lol, no one ever said that "Darkfall would beat WOW." That's a complete non-sequitur. They aren't even in the same realm of mmo's. I played Darkfall from launch to when it almost died. The game started to get boring when they installed instant travel portals, and it made the open world trivial, then big all the big guilds nut-cupped and warring stopped. This is when people stopped playing.
People who like wow's instanced gameplay would not like this style. Maybe they are the gamers that went to DF and complained that travelling took too long, so asked for it to be dumbed down and ruin the game.
New World pvp mechanic will be exploited terribly. No one will ever opt in when it is not in their advantage to do so. This game will flop hard, due to its exploitable mechanics.
Loved EQ Classic and hates that carebears had it changed.
If the game flops because there aren't enough of you, we can finally put that argument to rest.....
Loved EQ Classic and hates that carebears had it changed.
Essentially to progress your character you need stuff from all 3 zones to fully progress, any person can find their niche in any zone.
Safe areas for example with raids can get top armor. Middle area is for weapons/mounts, unsafe area is jewelry. Then you can have battlegrounds and arenas in certain areas that yield top potions . . . Etc.
Hence, a player could live in one area and trade in markets for anything they need.
EVE does a great job of allowing people to thrive in all locations and not be blocked in advancement. Every thing in EVE you do is valuable in some way because it usually produces something that someone needs.
You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations.
So i digress. That is not the best solution for me.
I'm perfectly willing to do realm vs realm pvp, but I won't touch open world pvp with a bargepole. I prefer actual competition, thank you very much, not having the gear advantages from MMO leveling used to one shot some new player trying to harvest herbs.
There is just a basic conflict between the structure of a MMO, where extended play makes characters stronger, and pvp, where matches that are fun for both players are even. Add in the open world ambush factor, and gangpiles, and you have a style of play that no one likes to be subjected to.
Given the resources going into the game, I suspect that there will be plenty of pve content on release. They may fail anyhow with these changes, but I might give it a try. No way I'll even do a free download of a gankbox.
Everyone has the same starting position, some people just make it to the end faster.
I get what mcbully is saying. There will always be an advantage for someone. Sometimes you have the advantage, sometimes it's your opponent. Waiting for a fair fight is silly.
I also get what you are saying. It sucks when the only world you have to PvE in is riddled with people who want to PvP.
You are both right.
My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)
https://www.ashesofcreation.com/ref/Callaron/
That's much different than the large group vs. small group advantage, the class / skill advantage - stealth being the classic advantage (and one of the things that ESO did right when they gave everyone stealth) or even level advantages when they happen organically in random encounters. That's just how PvP is in the types of games (RPGs) that have progression and that's OK.
PvP in MMO is not even-playing-field, shooter or BR PvP. Never was and never will be.
What people need to stop doing though is characterizing all MMO PvP as the calculated griefing that some asshats do or conversely denying that it's a significant problem. That type of griefing hurts PvP to the point that many players who could be attracted to PvP games just won't do it any more because that griefing is common enough, tolerated by PvP game developers apparently judging by their tiny wrist slapping schemes to curb it, and excused by the larger PvP community who should be extra motivated to weed out the asshats since it's the PvP games we like that are hurt by it.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
sadly this will unlikely to happen, the demand for open world pvp ( especially full loot ) is nothing compared to the pve market.
So What Now?
....and, honestly, that's the only two games that come to mind that exclusively focused on PVP. The rest have focused on PVE with PVP attached to the side. Even EVE Online is focus(ing) on PVE.
Our greatest glory is not in never falling but in rising everytime we fall.
Not sure you even tried to rebut my comment.
If you still need to scratch that itch, there's like a hundred battle-royale games out there, lol. And they are a lot more fun than OW MMORPG PvP. Even I play Apex Legends as a main game right now due to limited free time lol.