I still think things as basic as AAs from EQ are my favorite post-level progression. Paragon points etc don't really come close. The closest thing was omegas in marvel heroes, which Brevik said was inspired/modeled by EQ's AA system.
I view leveling as a crutch this industry has relied on far too much. Instead of expanding on what things we can do on online worlds. We are feed progression treadmills to be on like good little hamsters.
Does it really matter if you get stats from gear or AA or whatever post level grind for power there is? I'll pass.
Personally I enjoy RPGs along with the mechanics and rules they typically have. If you want an MMORPG without leveling or grinding that's great! Can you list some?
There are none with no progression. I don't mind some progression. But if all there is adding and multiplying numbers on your character it's a waste IMO.
That's the core of RPGs. Perhaps try some other genres. Almost every other genre has much lighter/no progression compared to MMORPGs.
I hate endless "progression." Or progression that takes forever (like in ESO, they have their super lite chardev system, and tact on that horrible end game system that takes forever on top of it). I like having character builds, and once you hit max level that is it. I like extremely robust and complex rpg systems that allow for very different character builds, even within a class.
I don't mind when a game adds a finite and not too time consuming system on top, like with Anarchy Online adding the alien invasion system. EQ2's AA system was okay too. DDO adding the skill trees was pure awesome.
I can't stand -AA systems like in Rift -Whatever the endless grind system people says current WoW has -Systems that allow one character to max everything like in Runescape, Entropia, etc. -Games with lite systems that amount to every character of that class being exactly the same sans gear, or mostly the same sans gear.
This is an aside, but I also can't stand degrading gear systems where you constantly have to replace gear with the same gear like in UO, SWG, etc.
I still think things as basic as AAs from EQ are my favorite post-level progression. Paragon points etc don't really come close. The closest thing was omegas in marvel heroes, which Brevik said was inspired/modeled by EQ's AA system.
I view leveling as a crutch this industry has relied on far too much. Instead of expanding on what things we can do on online worlds. We are feed progression treadmills to be on like good little hamsters.
Does it really matter if you get stats from gear or AA or whatever post level grind for power there is? I'll pass.
Personally I enjoy RPGs along with the mechanics and rules they typically have. If you want an MMORPG without leveling or grinding that's great! Can you list some?
There are none with no progression. I don't mind some progression. But if all there is adding and multiplying numbers on your character it's a waste IMO.
That's the core of RPGs. Perhaps try some other genres. Almost every other genre has much lighter/no progression compared to MMORPGs.
MMORPG are usually way more limited than single player RPG. The desire to get players to spend money has lead to pointless activities to fill time. If anything I'd say RPG have become more MMORPG like for the worst.
MMORPG are not RPG. Same core but persistent world and other players open up what a MMORPG can be vs. what an RPG is.
Single player rpg's are pretty much laughable,a weak story and VERY linear game play.
Square Enix covered the genre the best going way way back with FF3/5 allowing you to have multi class characters.Limited only by your own choices as you could play EVERY single class all on the same player meaning total progression.Most mmorpg's force you to make alts to play other classes,so your main character is no longer progressing as you move to a different account.
I have played a LOT of rpg's and they do not come close to FFXI's depth,so i say NO to the thought single player does anything at all better than a MP mmorpg.Instead single player games really lock you out everywhere,do this or you can't move on.
The problem right now thanks to Blizzard and their idea of forcing players to get better gear to advance.I guess they and others THINK gear should matter more than the player...lol,lame developers now a days.
I don't constantly mention FFXI for any old reason,it is not the AAA game to save mankind,it is simply just BETTER than the rest of the crap pile.ALl we got the last 10 years was bigger worlds and better graphics,nothing else has improved for the better.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Same here. I enjoy reading their well thought out posts and many of them get me actually thinking about a topic
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
I disagree with your opening statement and I believe that the view you have shared is one of the fundamental problems with the genre. Progression is not the core of the genre, it is simply an expected part.
There are two core parts to the genre, and they're right there in the name:
Being massively multiplayer
Being a roleplaying game.
Progression is not required for either of those things to be true.
Is there a role playing game that doesn't have progression? Because I can't think of a one (maybe there is? If it's just a few wouldn't they be outliers?)
If all or most role playing games have progression then wouldn't that mean progression is a part of the genre?
Tabletop Champions (just thought of this) is the closest I could get. You get XP, but it is used to either improve your powers or take care of a disadvantage you started with, like maybe Aunt May died and you no longer have to worry about her, or your Secret Identity got out somehow.
The best part was that each expenditure of XP had to have some kind of story explanation as to how a power improved or you lost a disadvantage. Still, though, you progressed
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
I still think things as basic as AAs from EQ are my favorite post-level progression. Paragon points etc don't really come close. The closest thing was omegas in marvel heroes, which Brevik said was inspired/modeled by EQ's AA system.
I view leveling as a crutch this industry has relied on far too much. Instead of expanding on what things we can do on online worlds. We are feed progression treadmills to be on like good little hamsters.
Does it really matter if you get stats from gear or AA or whatever post level grind for power there is? I'll pass.
Personally I enjoy RPGs along with the mechanics and rules they typically have. If you want an MMORPG without leveling or grinding that's great! Can you list some?
There are none with no progression. I don't mind some progression. But if all there is adding and multiplying numbers on your character it's a waste IMO.
That's the core of RPGs. Perhaps try some other genres. Almost every other genre has much lighter/no progression compared to MMORPGs.
MMORPG are usually way more limited than single player RPG. The desire to get players to spend money has lead to pointless activities to fill time. If anything I'd say RPG have become more MMORPG like for the worst.
MMORPG are not RPG. Same core but persistent world and other players open up what a MMORPG can be vs. what an RPG is.
Tabletop Champions (just thought of this) is the closest I could get. You get XP, but it is used to either improve your powers or take care of a disadvantage you started with, like maybe Aunt May died and you no longer have to worry about her, or your Secret Identity got out somehow.
The best part was that each expenditure of XP had to have some kind of story explanation as to how a power improved or you lost a disadvantage. Still, though, you progressed
I really wish to play more, but unfortunately by the time I've bumped into it our old group was already scattered, and with it the chance of active play. Had a few sessions, have 5th and 6th edition, play a lot of CO (when not in STO...) but I still wish if only we'd have the chance to play it when we had our tabletop haydays.
Really fun system, though a bit too heavy on number crunching
for me it needs to be right on track.. ESO for example doesn’t give me a fullfilling feeling at max level.. probably because the progression doesn’t require much planning
The Champion point system which is ESO's end game progression, is an almost direct copy/paste job from the D3 Paragon point system.
But unlike D3 where those paragon points matter and are needed to do progressively more difficult content (Greater Rifts with 150 difficulties) ESO's content is static and capped with mobs all being equivalent to players having 160 champion points.
Therein lies the problem and why the new guys managing that system (the ones who designed it, Paul Sage and Nick Konkle are both now gone) continually nerf and nerf for balance in order to try to keep the static content somewhat relevant with the ever-increasing Champion points.
That's why end-game progression there is so underwhelming: they're constantly nerfing away any impact the CP system could have so it feels like you're just treading water.
I see it more as a copy of EQ’s AA system.. i preferred the EQ2 system much more tough..
but you are right.. small gains kill the use of the system..
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
Basically, at max level, my progression consists of creating a new avatar. I've reached max level in just 3 MMORPGs: World of Warcraft, Wizard101, and City of Heroes. I had avatars in each that I then focused on "progressing" and left my "maxes" in idle. I would pull them out on occasion and play with my friends that also had max characters, but mainly I focused on my other avatars.
I was wondering about EQ's AA system, but never experienced that, myself. I'd heard good things about it and was glad to see that someone else mentioned it.
I disagree with your opening statement and I believe that the view you have shared is one of the fundamental problems with the genre. Progression is not the core of the genre, it is simply an expected part.
There are two core parts to the genre, and they're right there in the name:
Being massively multiplayer
Being a roleplaying game.
Progression is not required for either of those things to be true.
Is there a role playing game that doesn't have progression? Because I can't think of a one (maybe there is? If it's just a few wouldn't they be outliers?)
If all or most role playing games have progression then wouldn't that mean progression is a part of the genre?
I don't know if there is or not.
I totally agree that progression is a part of the genre, an important part too. I even said it is an expected part. But, if you removed the progression, it would still be a roleplaying game. If you removed the roleplaying, it would no longer be a roleplaying game. Sounds really dumb when I type that out, but I've met too many people who think that progression is roleplaying. It's not, they're different things (though progression can sometimes support roleplaying)
We've started arguing semantics (core vs part) so it's not really important. My intention was to highlight that, in my opinion, focusing on progression, thinking of it as a primary goal in the game design is a mistake. Progression should be much more meaningful, a means to an end, and not just a gating mechanic.
I guess it goes back to how one defines "roleplaying" in a gaming sense, I guess?
There is roleplaying, which doesn’t require much systems, only context..
and there is the RPG.. born in single player games.. and tabletop games where (as it is a game) everything is build as progression..
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
I partially disagree with you, so I guess going by the standards of this forum, I should now put "LOL" or "WTF" on your post. I misclicked, so I just leave "INSIGHTFUL" there for now .
For me, a game to qualify as "RPG" (or MMORPG) it has to have progression. I do understand that "role playing" in its right sense refers to something else and that adhering to this meaning, RPGs would be games with built-in elements which support / facilitate role playing.
However, theoretically, I can role play almost any game. I can role play a world war medic in a Battlefield 1942 game if I want to. Then you have genres like adventures which are often very close to RPGs. This is where the difference between the genres starts to blend.
For me, the element that distinguishes RPGs from the other, similar genres like adventures is the progression. I think at least part of the industry shares this view as when a game is described as having "RPG elements", it often means it contains some kind of progression.
I just wanted to share this little introduction to explain the part where I disagree with your post. It is a little messy explanation, but I just wanted to make it brief. Hopefully, it is understandable.
For me, vertical progression in MMORPGs is everything. It is the main reason I have been interested in this type of games for decades.
The OP talks about progression "at max level". This implies "end game". I personally do not like MMOs with an easily attainable max level which are built around end game. I do not even refer to those games as "MMORPGs" as for me, the RPG part of those games is just too limited. It is represented by a usually short period when you are leveling towards the max level. Then it gets limited to gear progression.
These games are often so much built around the end game (activities at max level) that the RPG part almost feels unnecessary. It feels like an annoying activity you need to get involved in to simply get to the end game where you can start doing the activities which are only available at the max level. I love it when devs say "end game is where the game really opens up".
You are level 30 and you want to do a meaningful raid in Warcraft? Too bad, you first need to spend another week leveling while your max level, vertical progression capped friends are all raiding together.
I very much prefer MMORPGs in which the progression is built into the game and is expected to be present throughout your whole gaming experience. This usually requires a hardly obtainable max level. By this I do not mean a pseudo-progression a la Diablo 3 where they had to put in this type of weird added progression where you still get a new type of levels (paragon levels) giving you some stats when you are at max level, but which pretty much does not affect your gaming experience at all.
Also, the activities available to the players should not be locked behind progression walls. Take the raiding example I mentioned above. I prefer when there are raid bosses of various levels in the game world. Then a bunch of players level e.g. 10-20 can get together and kill that raid boss to get some decent loot.
I think it is also better when the progression is much slower than in most modern games. That way, the players are less split by the difference in their progression and everything you do and achieve seems more meaningful. At least to me it does. It just feels so different when you get a new piece of gear after several weeks or even months than if you change 20 items a day as when you are leveling in Warcraft (or almost any other modern MMO).
I totally agree with what you mentioned about new spells / skills which affect your game play becoming available as you progress in your character development. I much prefer this approach over getting all spells within the first couple days and then just getting their higher levels during the rest of your leveling. Then the progression gets degraded into something that just gives you higher numbers.
I could spend days talking about progression as I simply love it when it is done right. I will rather stop here as this is long enough. I didnt mean to write a comprehensive perspective on this topic, but rather to indicate the direction in which my subjective preference goes.
I know the post is not very structured. I was just writing the ideas as they were coming . I think L2 did many things right in terms of vertical progression, but I would expect that at least some modern MMORPGs take this element much further. They dont.
MMORPG have other players. It is an on going game without true ending. MMORPG doesn't stop being an RPG because you max out. In theory the story continues but since it's not player story and only developer story we have to wait.
What usually happens is there nothing to do because MMORPG focus almost solely on progression. But it's lead to easy mode gaming, quality of life over gameplay and community and lot of other things. Progression is tedium that adds up game to game, character to character.
Vast vertical progression gets in the way of multiplayer gaming and interdependency. Players by and large not wanting to deal with other players to progress is a sign that maybe it isn't the best to only focus your MMORPG around it. I have zero interest in coop combat with randoms or being tied to it unless it's automatic or with rl friends playing which less of them play as I get older. Small group to begin with.
MMORPGs will go another lvl when they will be fully playable on VR or someone will develop VR that is connecting with your brain like SAO
The deeper VR gets into real world physics, the more value I see in a good AAA VR MMO. So much has changed in VR gaming just in the last 6 months. It's a cool thing to be a part of.
MMORPGs will go another lvl when they will be fully playable on VR or someone will develop VR that is connecting with your brain like SAO
The deeper VR gets into real world physics, the more value I see in a good AAA VR MMO. So much has changed in VR gaming just in the last 6 months. It's a cool thing to be a part of.
As long as the VR experience works froma lazy chair its okay with me
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
MMORPGs will go another lvl when they will be fully playable on VR or someone will develop VR that is connecting with your brain like SAO
The deeper VR gets into real world physics, the more value I see in a good AAA VR MMO. So much has changed in VR gaming just in the last 6 months. It's a cool thing to be a part of.
As long as the VR experience works froma lazy chair its okay with me
It might be safer from a lazy chair... less chance of lunging forward to hit something in game and punching your monitor. Since most movement is done via the controllers, you don't have to physically move around to play. I would assume most games could be played while sitting, it would just be odd because in the game you are standing, unless you're playing a driving game or flight sim.
Our VR group has a lot of people with physical disabilities that use VR to "get out" since they can't physically get out on their own. They seem to love it.
The best kind of character progression is when there is no max level. Every single MMORPG with a level cap has a meaningless and pointless leveling phase and the game really begins at max level, and that's because you no longer gain better skills and spells and your progression depends on gear only and you can't outlevel content.
Now, design the game that works like that from level 1 and you'll have the winner. It doesn't matter if the game is about Pokemon, Frodo Baggins, or Little Red Riding Hood. It will work nonetheless.
Comments
I don't mind when a game adds a finite and not too time consuming system on top, like with Anarchy Online adding the alien invasion system. EQ2's AA system was okay too. DDO adding the skill trees was pure awesome.
I can't stand
-AA systems like in Rift
-Whatever the endless grind system people says current WoW has
-Systems that allow one character to max everything like in Runescape, Entropia, etc.
-Games with lite systems that amount to every character of that class being exactly the same sans gear, or mostly the same sans gear.
This is an aside, but I also can't stand degrading gear systems where you constantly have to replace gear with the same gear like in UO, SWG, etc.
MMORPG are not RPG. Same core but persistent world and other players open up what a MMORPG can be vs. what an RPG is.
Square Enix covered the genre the best going way way back with FF3/5 allowing you to have multi class characters.Limited only by your own choices as you could play EVERY single class all on the same player meaning total progression.Most mmorpg's force you to make alts to play other classes,so your main character is no longer progressing as you move to a different account.
I have played a LOT of rpg's and they do not come close to FFXI's depth,so i say NO to the thought single player does anything at all better than a MP mmorpg.Instead single player games really lock you out everywhere,do this or you can't move on.
The problem right now thanks to Blizzard and their idea of forcing players to get better gear to advance.I guess they and others THINK gear should matter more than the player...lol,lame developers now a days.
I don't constantly mention FFXI for any old reason,it is not the AAA game to save mankind,it is simply just BETTER than the rest of the crap pile.ALl we got the last 10 years was bigger worlds and better graphics,nothing else has improved for the better.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
The best part was that each expenditure of XP had to have some kind of story explanation as to how a power improved or you lost a disadvantage. Still, though, you progressed
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
i preferred the EQ2 system much more tough..
but you are right..
small gains kill the use of the system..
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
and there is the RPG.. born in single player games.. and tabletop games
where (as it is a game) everything is build as progression..
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
What usually happens is there nothing to do because MMORPG focus almost solely on progression. But it's lead to easy mode gaming, quality of life over gameplay and community and lot of other things. Progression is tedium that adds up game to game, character to character.
Vast vertical progression gets in the way of multiplayer gaming and interdependency. Players by and large not wanting to deal with other players to progress is a sign that maybe it isn't the best to only focus your MMORPG around it. I have zero interest in coop combat with randoms or being tied to it unless it's automatic or with rl friends playing which less of them play as I get older. Small group to begin with.
The deeper VR gets into real world physics, the more value I see in a good AAA VR MMO. So much has changed in VR gaming just in the last 6 months. It's a cool thing to be a part of.
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
The best kind of character progression is when there is no max level. Every single MMORPG with a level cap has a meaningless and pointless leveling phase and the game really begins at max level, and that's because you no longer gain better skills and spells and your progression depends on gear only and you can't outlevel content.
Now, design the game that works like that from level 1 and you'll have the winner. It doesn't matter if the game is about Pokemon, Frodo Baggins, or Little Red Riding Hood. It will work nonetheless.