Camelot Unchained dev faces tough questions from backers after announcing new game Ragnarok:Colossus

Mikeha · February 2020

"This is unreal... I can't believe this."

The developer of Camelot Unchained has announced a new game.

In a YouTube stream, City State Entertainment design chief Mark Jacobs revealed co-op PVE game Ragnarok: Colossus. It's a third-person action game with tower defense elements that sees hundreds of enemies on the battlefield.

The announcement has sparked an angry reaction from backers of Camelot Unchained, the spiritual successor to Jacobs' previous game Dark Age of Camelot. Camelot Unchained began life as a Kickstarter in 2013 and raised over $2.2m. Nearly seven years later, it is still without a release date.

https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2020-02-01-the-developer-of-camelot-unchained-announces-new-pve-game-ragnarok-colossus

Ilaya · February 2020

If i would be a backer i would be in Rage and VERY pissed. All the Resources that the other Game "eats up"....i still can't believe that they rly did that.

Wizardry · February 2020

It is like slapping all the backers in the face.Thanks for your money but now i'll throw together some quick cash grab because in reality that is all any of these devs care about is the money.
Of course all devs need to make money,they need to eat but they do in such deceitful ways,lead you on,even make some promises or try and sell the product based on some old popular title like mentioning DAOC which imo was never any good either.

Finish the game you promised backers before moving resources over to a cash grab OR at least be HONEST with your backers.Tell them you are in financial trouble and NEED a fast cash grab or ask your supporters for suggestions,you know "communicate" wit the people who TRUSTED you?

Kyleran · February 2020

Ilaya said:

If i would be a backer i would be in Rage and VERY pissed. All the Resources that the other Game "eats up"....i still can't believe that they rly did that.

Rage is an understatement. Over on MassivelyOP there's been 324 replies in just a day, highest I've ever seen before.

Likely due to fact Mark's been at it for like 36 hours furiously responding, challenging the critics, calling various posters trolls, liars even basically doing a great job digging himself deeper into his hole.

All pretense of dignity has pretty much gone out the window, fact is, the trolls are winning.

Go team!

Theocritus · February 2020

and this is exactly why I will not back any game before it releases.

Gdemami · February 2020

Makes sense, good luck to them.

Unfortunately, the unwashed masses will never understand anything like that.

Utinni · February 2020

You can get a refund. The reasons for doing this were all explained and make sense.

With the option to get refund there is no logical reason to be upset as a "backer". Unless you've somehow developed an emotional investment in a game that hasn't been made yet.

This game was never going to launch without more time and money. So now they get more time and money but people rage. Huge yikes.

Slapshot1188 · February 2020

Hi. I know it's strange that there is no official article on MMORPG.COM about big MMORPG news, but we have been discussing it for the last 2 days over here:

https://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/486906/cu-changing-route-new-game-aoc-method/p1
https://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/486925/an-example-of-how-mark-jacobs-interacts-with-those-who-dont-agree-with-him/p1

@ShankTheTank Should we ask MJ to send you a direct press release to get an article posted over here?

Quizzical · February 2020

People who backed the game on Kickstarter aren't the only ones who want the game to launch. Larger investors want it to launch, too. If it doesn't, they lose the money they invested. So investors wouldn't have okayed this if they thought it would damage the prospects for both games.

Slapshot1188 · February 2020

Quizzical said:

People who backed the game on Kickstarter aren't the only ones who want the game to launch. Larger investors want it to launch, too. If it doesn't, they lose the money they invested. So investors wouldn't have okayed this if they thought it would damage the prospects for both games.

Not quite true.
Investors want a ROI and they don't generally care if it comes from CU or Colossus. Sure they would love to have multiple hits, but just like Fortnite... if the new shiny thing makes a ton of money they will follow that.

Not saying this is MJs mindset, but a money guy is a money guy for a reason.

gervaise1 · February 2020

Utinni said:

You can get a refund. <snip>

With the option to get refund there is no logical reason to be upset as a "backer". <snip>

Maybe; maybe not it seems. Check the other threads that @Slapshot1188 linked for discussions about refund "issues".

And as I posted in one of those threads for backers - rightly or wrongly - may have an emotional connection. If it was as simple as being "logical" they would simply put their money in a bank say, earning interest whilst waiting for the game to release.

Quizzical · February 2020

Slapshot1188 said:

Quizzical said:

People who backed the game on Kickstarter aren't the only ones who want the game to launch. Larger investors want it to launch, too. If it doesn't, they lose the money they invested. So investors wouldn't have okayed this if they thought it would damage the prospects for both games.

Not quite true.
Investors want a ROI and they don't generally care if it comes from CU or Colossus. Sure they would love to have multiple hits, but just like Fortnite... if the new shiny thing makes a ton of money they will follow that.

Not saying this is MJs mindset, but a money guy is a money guy for a reason.

If they think Colossus will be successful and have soured on Camelot Unchained, then maybe. That would require them changing their minds, however, as they wouldn't have invested in Camelot Unchained before Colossus was on the radar if they thought it was a probable loser. But what I said is, they wouldn't have okayed it if they thought it would damage both games. And I stand by that.

xpsync · February 2020

Kyleran said:

Ilaya said:

If i would be a backer i would be in Rage and VERY pissed. All the Resources that the other Game "eats up"....i still can't believe that they rly did that.

Rage is an understatement. Over on MassivelyOP there's been 324 replies in just a day, highest I've ever seen before.

Likely due to fact Mark's been at it for like 36 hours furiously responding, challenging the critics, calling various posters trolls, liars even basically doing a great job digging himself deeper into his hole.

All pretense of dignity has pretty much gone out the window, fact is, the trolls are winning.

Go team!

I'll pass on the drama there, actually quitting there was like quitting smoking, food tastes better ect ect, replace that with enjoying games so much more since i cut out the drama altogether. Having to endure the triggering they do daily to get their readers all riled up, has been a game changer

Not trashing the site, solid news site no doubt, but nothing which isn't posted repeatedly and regularly in many other sites, minus the drama, i just love to play games and bit'in 24/7 about them i can totally do without.

Maybe if Mark focused on the game more and less on posting on drama sites we'd have chains.

Bottom line: This is not cool but is also why i don't back, and never get my hopes up anymore, just play and have fun, something comes out i could actually buy, we'll talk, if it's good.

Albatroes · February 2020

Quizzical said:

Slapshot1188 said:

Quizzical said:

People who backed the game on Kickstarter aren't the only ones who want the game to launch. Larger investors want it to launch, too. If it doesn't, they lose the money they invested. So investors wouldn't have okayed this if they thought it would damage the prospects for both games.

Not quite true.
Investors want a ROI and they don't generally care if it comes from CU or Colossus. Sure they would love to have multiple hits, but just like Fortnite... if the new shiny thing makes a ton of money they will follow that.

Not saying this is MJs mindset, but a money guy is a money guy for a reason.

If they think Colossus will be successful and have soured on Camelot Unchained, then maybe. That would require them changing their minds, however, as they wouldn't have invested in Camelot Unchained before Colossus was on the radar if they thought it was a probable loser. But what I said is, they wouldn't have okayed it if they thought it would damage both games. And I stand by that.

I think what slap is saying is that Colossus wasn't even started without investors knowing about it before had. Assuming if there was an CU testing done and people were under NDA during said testing, we don't really have any way of knowing if Colossus just reuses a majority of already created assets akin to what the AoC team supposedly did with their BR. Its not like a tower defense game needs a lot to actually run anyway and my guess they is they wanted to use it for 'testing' while also making money. As slap said before, investors are more keen on RoI vs an actual IP, so a plan to siphon extra money from stuff they've already made without "slowing" development time is a "smart" plan. Hell, even the Crowfall team was selling their engine while the game was being developed (still being developed). Feels like all these crowdfunded groups are either looking for "side-projects" or ways to cut corners.

Slapshot1188 · February 2020

Some additional info from "The Gravevine"... the investor is Mark's sister.

Wizbuiz · February 2020

Legal Theft, kickstarters are a scam. Weve seen countless of examples, they made colossus to showcase in court if anyone sues. Easiest model for a quick cashflow fake it til you make it

Wizbuiz · February 2020

Getting a refund 7 years later, hopefully it's with interests

AlBQuirky · February 2020

If this is successful, will they do more "side projects?"

lahnmir · February 2020

AlBQuirky said:

If this is successful, will they do more "side projects?"

And at what point does the main project become a side project then?

/Cheers,
Lahnmir

Slapshot1188 · February 2020

lahnmir said:

AlBQuirky said:

If this is successful, will they do more "side projects?"

And at what point does the main project become a side project then?

/Cheers,
Lahnmir

I'd argue that for most Crowdfunded games the main project is fundraising and the game is just the mechanism to facilitate that.

Finvega · February 2020

I am a backer... undecided about refund yet. But I will say this... anything done in the "dark of the night" speaks volumes for how the Dev's expected this to be received.

H0urg1ass · February 2020

Well...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jGLW6o6zQfg

This is the only MMORPG project that was I was really interested in currently and now the chances of it seeing daylight just took a massive nosedive.

cameltosis · February 2020

I watched the live stream about Ragnarok.

The way I understood things, during the course of developing CU, Mark got to wondering: "I wonder what other cool shit I could do with the engine?".

He started thinking about Ragnarok, batted the idea around with a couple of people in the office and then did some preliminary work. This did divert a minor amount of resources from CU, but mostly just Mark's time.

He took the idea to his investors (his sister??!?! I'd like to see a source for that....) who also liked the idea. They, along with Mark, then invested new money into Ragnarok, allowing them to hire some new people and start on some proper work, resulting in the early demo we saw in the live stream.

No CU backer money has been used in the new game, according to Mark

Minimal resources have been used from the CU team thus far.

The benefit to the CU backers will be that there will now be a new team working on and using the unchained engine, paid for with the new investment money. Whilst not all work will be able to transfer from one team to the other, enough of it will that the remaining development of CU should go quicker than if ragnarok had never come along.

Additionally, existing CU backers will get the new game for free, and refunds are still open if you don't like.

-----------------

Now, that's just my understanding of it. How much you want to trust what they said is up to all of us. I'm not a backer, despite CU being the only MMO im looking forwards to, so im not invested in this. I still personally trust Mark and CSE and I still think CU is attempting to do some really great things for the genre.

My biggest disappointment from the stream was that CU wasnt getting released in 2020. I'm not sure if that had already been announced before but it was news to me, and not welcome news.

I was also a little disappointed in what ragnarok actually was, but I'll wait and see what it looks like later on, given that the demo was very early alpha. Mark confirmed on mop that they were sticking with shallow action combat for the game, which isn't to my taste, but he was talking about others things that could make it interesting, like the way characters progress, some inter-character dependencies, building barriers, buffs etc.

I also couldn't stop thinking "huh, looks like Serious Sam" whilst watching the demo, in particular the way all the npcs ran. I'm sure that'll improve later on once they can spend time on animations.

Jamar870 · February 2020

That's a clip from their new game? Ok it's not, but if that's the approach the game is going to take, good luck.

cameltosis · February 2020

Sorry, should have been clear, that clip is from serious sam

here's the CSE Ragnarok stream. jump to 20 / 25 minutes to see very early alpha / pre-alpha footage.

MightyUnclean · February 2020

Elidien said:

Already asked for a refund. Been a backer for 2 years.

My issue is the whole "this tests a lot we need for CU."

Okay fine...but if you need this to test CU then how the f&*^ far off is CU?

2-3 more years minimum?

Guess what? Don't care. Not anymore. No game is worth 10 years especially when earlier on you acted like it wasn't that far off.

Give me my money back and I will be happy to donate it to a small team with limited resources that respects its backers and fans.

It's all a shell game to keep us from realizing the truth: They were out of money for CU after 7 years of bad decisions, and selling this new game to outside investors was a last ditch effort to save CSE and the only way for Mark Jacobs to possibly get back the money he's put in.

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Camelot Unchained dev faces tough questions from backers after announcing new game Ragnarok:Colossus

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Camelot Unchained dev faces tough questions from backers after announcing new game Ragnarok:Colossus

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Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV