Tab, 100%. Spells, Stats and gear min-maxing are important to PvE-centric MMORPGs. These things are not nearly as significant in "action" games. (I quote "action," because that somehow implies that there's no action in tab-targetting games).
Nice thread. The idea that ‘more’ means ‘depth’ or ‘tactical thinking’ really needs to go the way of the dinosaur though, it doesn’t. Bloat and convoluted systems do not equal depth.
Tab based can offer tactical thinking, action based combat can offer tactical thinking and challenge your reflexes. You just have to look at other genres to find ample proof. Beat em Ups? Quick reflexes are required, but the one who thinks best and acts most tactical always wins, look at DMC, look at the Souls series.
The best example? Sekiro, it has ONE attack button, yet it offers immense depth and requires a razorsharp brain and lightning reflexes, more then EQ2 and WoW with 40+ abilities ever did.
Both have their place in gaming but the distinction many are making here really isn't based on reality.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
Post edited by lahnmir on
'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
I totally loved GW1s combat and still miss it in every game I play.
My biggest disappointment is still ESO. I really love this game and the idea behind its system is really cool, but the implementation aka skill weaving is so awful.
Its more than just the way you target that makes or breaks combat. Many games gave tanks extremely powerful tools to tank reducing the danger of aggroing monster, many games reduced the danger of going out of mana.
It was more than just targeting that made me enjoy healing in tera, your targeted heals were very powerful and cheap but due to the way threat were reduced over time you were forced to use more expensive heals or simply wait for the tank to build more threat before throwing your third heal. Tanks had to actively avoid taking damage while still being active enough to deal threat to the monsters.
In tab-target games its damage spikes, threat and mana conservation that creates depth to the healing. Tanks also had some tools to handle damage spikes instead of just being a bag of meat that just had to worry about threat.
Iselin: And the next person who says "but it's a business, they need to make money" can just go fuck yourself.
been kind of wary of action combat since i played Wildstar and it's cover the whole ground in telegraphs approach. haven't tried things like BDO but it just doesn't look like a fun gun game. flashy sure but kinda soulless. every video i've watched is just people killing trash mobs over and over again.
tab target can also be pretty crap like when you have ability bloat with 4 different buttons that do the same exact thing. pretty common in FFXIV and SWTOR.
a happy medium is probably the best option for me. i don't want to spend more time dodgin stuff than i use abilites and i don't want to just stare at a hotbar. i also like to enjoy the scenery and see what the things i'm fighting actually looks like.
I hardly use tab target any more I usually target with my mouse or it is a soft target thing where you aim at a direction and the act of using the skill gains the target.
Oh I don't know. I think I like both. For times when I want to take it slow and not feeling too actiony, tab-targeting works the best... but I realize that with more serious combat, action is what I need.
I prefer tab targeting in an MMO. I think the mechanics associated with tab targeting just works better with MMOs. I don't have a huge issue with action targeting but if given the option, I would go with tab targets. I am more likely to play a game longer if it's a tab target game.
With action targeting I do find the jumping back and forth defense to be, not only irritating, but completely immersion breaking. In VR, this is a non issue. Someone starts jumping around and it just looks like a person jumping around while you shoot him. In a non-VR game, targeting with a mouse makes things much more erratic and it just kills the fun.
Nice thread. The idea that ‘more’ means ‘depth’ or ‘tactical thinking’ really needs to go the way of the dinosaur though, it doesn’t. Bloat and convoluted systems do not equal depth.
Tab based can offer tactical thinking, action based combat can offer tactical thinking and challenge your reflexes. You just have to look at other genres to find ample proof. Beat em Ups? Quick reflexes are required, but the one who thinks best and acts most tactical always wins, look at DMC, look at the Souls series.
The best example? Sekiro, it has ONE attack button, yet it offers immense depth and requires a razorsharp brain and lightning reflexes, more then EQ2 and WoW with 40+ abilities ever did.
Both have their place in gaming but the distinction many are making here really isn't based on reality.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
I think there is truth to what you are saying, but what you do not understand is that we aren't really speaking in universals. We're speaking of correlations, not causations.
Action MMOs do tend to be really shallow to a degree that tab target MMOs, and single player action games are not. Not always, and not to the same degree, mind you. Mostly.
Probably the deepest action MMO is Blade and Soul. It has an excellent combat system. It has strong skill design with a lot of decision making, in regards to PvP. It is deep. But it's also an example of what I was talking about - action MMOs have not yet nailed down how to make their combat work for group scenarios - especially endgame PvE. Blade and Soul is a 1v1 arena PvP game with a MMO crudely bolted onto it. Teamwork is borderline non-existent in its dungeon play, and the same problems would likely not be present in a traditional MMO.
Is there any action combat mmo with good group interaction, ie controlling aggro, healing, cc, etc?
Cough ...cough Wildstar, I kid, it is dead the game I mean.
I liked Wildstar, but there was something lacking that didn't keep me playing. Perhaps it was the combat. The question is, would Wildstar still be around if it had a different targeting system.
Is there any action combat mmo with good group interaction, ie controlling aggro, healing, cc, etc?
Cough ...cough Wildstar, I kid, it is dead the game I mean.
I liked Wildstar, but there was something lacking that didn't keep me playing. Perhaps it was the combat. The question is, would Wildstar still be around if it had a different targeting system.
Wasn't Wildstar tab target? Or at least "under the hood" tab target, like Neverwinter?
Its demise wasn't the targeting system, it was the audience targeting system The whole "the game for the hardcore raiders, from the hardcore raiders" agenda at the start. Even with the steering away from it after a year or so, the game never really got a second chance from a lot of players.
(for the thread question I don't want to play the broken record of mine, obviously tab target. Action should stay at the action games - in a perfect world at least, but this one is far from that)
Tab all the way. Action combat ruined the feel of mmo's to me. It came into mmo's because of the devs that grew up playing on consoles. mmo's used to be about using abilities and not fast twitch muscles.
While I'm sure it can be done in a variety of different ways, my experience has been much more positive with tab-target games as they seem to be more strategic than the adrenaline-focused action combat. If I wanted action combat, I'd go for a FPS instead of a MMO.
Is there any action combat mmo with good group interaction, ie controlling aggro, healing, cc, etc?
Cough ...cough Wildstar, I kid, it is dead the game I mean.
I liked Wildstar, but there was something lacking that didn't keep me playing. Perhaps it was the combat. The question is, would Wildstar still be around if it had a different targeting system.
Wasn't Wildstar tab target? Or at least "under the hood" tab target, like Neverwinter?
Its demise wasn't the targeting system, it was the audience targeting system The whole "the game for the hardcore raiders, from the hardcore raiders" agenda at the start. Even with the steering away from it after a year or so, the game never really got a second chance from a lot of players.
(for the thread question I don't want to play the broken record of mine, obviously tab target. Action should stay at the action games - in a perfect world at least, but this one is far from that)
Huzzah, quote and post edit seems working now
From what I remember, Wildstar had an odd ground target, area system.
Action targeting sounds great on paper, but I have yet to see it implemented well - especially as it applies to group synergy and endgame PvE.
I would far rather have a deep, thoughtful skill system with tab targeting than a shallow one that emphasizes reflexes with action targeting.
Agreed, there is not a single MMORPG that got action combat right. What all of them are doing in reality is still tab targeting, but they are hiding it very well. Instead of clicking your target and a circular marker beneath it showing you that this is your target, there is a crosshair deceiving your into believing you have free targeting, all this does is like it tab-targets whatever enemy you're pointing at.
Worst of all is that your "action targeting" still only hits one target, unless you're using an AoE skill, you're still hitting one target.
A real action targeting and combat would mean, for example, you have a long ass Claymore or a Zweihander and when you swing it around, everyone who is in contact gets damage, be it friend or foe. And this is your normal attack, no skills used. This is the type of combat where it's not ability checks or dice rolls - your weapon hits whatever it reaches and damages the said area. This would also involve having a system where different parts of the body can be damaged at different times.
And since all the self-proclaimed action games are actually all pieces of trash, I would say that tab-targeting is the best way for any game right now. Simply Vanilla WoW's combat is the best and most fun I've ever experienced.
DDO, used a hybrid System. You could tab target, but you also needed to aim and face your target, and the target could move out of the way, as you shot at them.
To get that. Lets say you Tab Target the Beholder, and then cast a Death Ray at the Beholder, the Beholder could step to the side(not dodge roll) and the Ray would not follow them, it would continue straight to where the Beholder Originally was (God help whatever poor bastard was standing behind the beholder), even with a Tab target Lock in place. Same held true for basic projectiles, like Arrows, Throwing Knives, etc.
Equally so in DDO, if you were at melee, you were going to hit what you were facing, if what you Tab Targeted was behind you, you were not going to turn to face them, you were going to slap the crap out what was standing in front of you, no matter what you had targeted.
That was a really cool system, that I wish more games adopted.
Crowfall uses a kind of Aim Assist System where as long as I am kinda close with the target pointer, I am going to hit you or at least at you, you can still move and dodge, and to be honest, when it comes to action combat games, this is the best way to deal with that, as the BS system they have in games like Eternal Crusade or TERA where if I am off by a pixel I miss.. is total fucking bullshit.
GW2, also has a hybrid system, but it works like I can just blindly attack and hit whatever is in front of me, or if I tab target, I lock on to the target and am able to shoot them down with no effort on my part, so I view it as a crudely inferior system to what DDO already did.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Comments
To me it stopped being an rpg and start being fps/tps/survival/shooter game if it relies more on aim than the rotation of abilities.
Also mmorpg imo is about being about to watch tv while playing if one wants to lol :P
The best example? Sekiro, it has ONE attack button, yet it offers immense depth and requires a razorsharp brain and lightning reflexes, more then EQ2 and WoW with 40+ abilities ever did.
Both have their place in gaming but the distinction many are making here really isn't based on reality.
/Cheers,
Lahnmir
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
My biggest disappointment is still ESO. I really love this game and the idea behind its system is really cool, but the implementation aka skill weaving is so awful.
1997 Meridian 59 'til 2019 ESO
Waiting for Camelot Unchained & Pantheon
It was more than just targeting that made me enjoy healing in tera, your targeted heals were very powerful and cheap but due to the way threat were reduced over time you were forced to use more expensive heals or simply wait for the tank to build more threat before throwing your third heal. Tanks had to actively avoid taking damage while still being active enough to deal threat to the monsters.
In tab-target games its damage spikes, threat and mana conservation that creates depth to the healing. Tanks also had some tools to handle damage spikes instead of just being a bag of meat that just had to worry about threat.
been kind of wary of action combat since i played Wildstar and it's cover the whole ground in telegraphs approach. haven't tried things like BDO but it just doesn't look like a fun gun game. flashy sure but kinda soulless. every video i've watched is just people killing trash mobs over and over again.
tab target can also be pretty crap like when you have ability bloat with 4 different buttons that do the same exact thing. pretty common in FFXIV and SWTOR.
a happy medium is probably the best option for me. i don't want to spend more time dodgin stuff than i use abilites and i don't want to just stare at a hotbar. i also like to enjoy the scenery and see what the things i'm fighting actually looks like.
I had fun once, it was terrible.
With action targeting I do find the jumping back and forth defense to be, not only irritating, but completely immersion breaking. In VR, this is a non issue. Someone starts jumping around and it just looks like a person jumping around while you shoot him. In a non-VR game, targeting with a mouse makes things much more erratic and it just kills the fun.
Action MMOs do tend to be really shallow to a degree that tab target MMOs, and single player action games are not. Not always, and not to the same degree, mind you. Mostly.
Probably the deepest action MMO is Blade and Soul. It has an excellent combat system. It has strong skill design with a lot of decision making, in regards to PvP. It is deep. But it's also an example of what I was talking about - action MMOs have not yet nailed down how to make their combat work for group scenarios - especially endgame PvE. Blade and Soul is a 1v1 arena PvP game with a MMO crudely bolted onto it. Teamwork is borderline non-existent in its dungeon play, and the same problems would likely not be present in a traditional MMO.
I now imagine melee characters swinging at air while ranged characters with tab targeting jump around hitting their target every time.
To get that. Lets say you Tab Target the Beholder, and then cast a Death Ray at the Beholder, the Beholder could step to the side(not dodge roll) and the Ray would not follow them, it would continue straight to where the Beholder Originally was (God help whatever poor bastard was standing behind the beholder), even with a Tab target Lock in place. Same held true for basic projectiles, like Arrows, Throwing Knives, etc.
Equally so in DDO, if you were at melee, you were going to hit what you were facing, if what you Tab Targeted was behind you, you were not going to turn to face them, you were going to slap the crap out what was standing in front of you, no matter what you had targeted.
That was a really cool system, that I wish more games adopted.
Crowfall uses a kind of Aim Assist System where as long as I am kinda close with the target pointer, I am going to hit you or at least at you, you can still move and dodge, and to be honest, when it comes to action combat games, this is the best way to deal with that, as the BS system they have in games like Eternal Crusade or TERA where if I am off by a pixel I miss.. is total fucking bullshit.
GW2, also has a hybrid system, but it works like I can just blindly attack and hit whatever is in front of me, or if I tab target, I lock on to the target and am able to shoot them down with no effort on my part, so I view it as a crudely inferior system to what DDO already did.