so i guess its possible they will set free ," mmo server sofware and database " for dead mmo games in the future , when the grafics are so ridiculus old like those are today.
anyway , this is one of the reasons im a screenshots maniac , at least i will have the screens to remember.
I always thought this would be a great last influx of cash option for companies AFTER the game finally died away. They could retool the game to make sure that the spawns existed as well as the game itself, and they could sell it as a final version of the game. For me, it would serve the nostalgia of the old game, and it would give me the opportunity to explore the places I never got to see the first time around.
But something seems to be forgotten. VERY few of the main games have actually shut down. They're still chugging along unless they were outright failures from the get-go, like AC2 or Shadowbane. Earth and Beyond was somewhat of a surprise, but while playing it, you could see it was going to fail because the universe was too limiting and there was NO attempt to expand it.
I don't believe a company should just give away its work. So i voted no. However, i would like to see them offer a limited non-profit license so people could set up a server with a viable population of around 1 or 2000 players and charge enough to cover the expense. I think that makes sense. I don't think they should charge a large amount for such a license either since there is no profit.
If the game is a few years old and dying (or completly dead), and if the company running is going the same way and/or it no-longer uses the source for other titles then this could be possible. But the occasion wouldn't happen too often, and most will cling to the source 'just in case'.
let me make it clear that in my question I refer to the following:
a game or version of the game that has become extinct or obsolete
the game company would SELL a copy of the required software, not give it away for free
by being extinct or obsolete, the company has no custumer support/content providing obligations to the purchaser of the copy of the software other than basic functional documentation (something like /help)
the purchaser should be aware of the limitations/problems of the software and the terms of release of resposibility of support on the company's behalf
the purchaser would not be paying the company any monthly fees. There is nothing to pay for on a monthly basis. The purchaser only buys a copy, the means, the "tool" to convert his defunct mmo into a regular, user-hosted multiplayer game
However, this is the solution I am proposing, and maybe there are other, better solutions. There's many people in this forum, and all that brain power must surely find good ideas.
I'm glad this is such an active post. Obviously it is a problem common to many gamers and by keeping this thread alive companies WILL notice. We are custumers, they are service providers. We have a need, and it's not currently met. Those who meet our needs get our money.
The message is clear, keep pointing out the problems and shruging shoulders: u get no money. Find us a solution: u get our money.
Originally posted by neoteo the op is not asking for the code , so i dont see where people could learn to hack with a tool that provides server task if you can hack a game with the input output info coming from a server , why cant you from a client ?
Maybe you haven't paid too much attention but he is.
If you want to run a server for an mmo you have to supply new content every so often, as well as bug fix content already there. To do this you need access to the source code.
Without it people will lose interest in the game fast, and therefore the server operators would lose players, making it harder to maintain the server (assumming they charge, If it was a free server you might not have as much of a problem as soon, but it would still happen).
This really is the oldest lamest boogeyman myth in gaming.
You do not buy a licesnse you buy the software, you own it.
In the US, the first sale doctrine, Softman v. Adobe and Novell, inc. v. CPU Distrib., Inc. ruled that software sales are purchases, not licenses.
In the EU this is covered by the Unfair Contract Act.
Copywright Law still applies and reverse engineering the code for profit is not allowed without the copywright holders permission.
You are allowed to fiddle with the code, you are allowed to adapt it to suit your purposes or reverse engineer it to learn how it works.
You are not allowed to use it in another software without permission.
When you sign a publishing licence with a developer to host a game, that is what you get, a publishing licence. We are not talking about purchasing a shrink wrapped piece of software for personal use.
Originally posted by Cowinspace Originally posted by neoteo the op is not asking for the code , so i dont see where people could learn to hack with a tool that provides server task if you can hack a game with the input output info coming from a server , why cant you from a client ? Maybe you haven't paid too much attention but he is.If you want to run a server for an mmo you have to supply new content every so often, as well as bug fix content already there. To do this you need access to the source code.Without it people will lose interest in the game fast, and therefore the server operators would lose players, making it harder to maintain the server (assumming they charge, If it was a free server you might not have as much of a problem as soon, but it would still happen).
well seams like you are the one not paing attention
this is not for " people " , who cares if they will lose interest .. this is for veteran fans , that want to play the game even if its full of bugs , they love it , with the same content forever .
Originally posted by Cowinspace Originally posted by neoteo the op is not asking for the code , so i dont see where people could learn to hack with a tool that provides server task if you can hack a game with the input output info coming from a server , why cant you from a client ?
Maybe you haven't paid too much attention but he is.
If you want to run a server for an mmo you have to supply new content every so often, as well as bug fix content already there. To do this you need access to the source code.
Without it people will lose interest in the game fast, and therefore the server operators would lose players, making it harder to maintain the server (assumming they charge, If it was a free server you might not have as much of a problem as soon, but it would still happen).
you know what? I just noticed that last part in parethesis in your post, so my reply kinda hits a mute point, but heck, I still wrote it, here it goes
Yeah, I see that, but the intent here is not to host public servers for any sort of fees or anything. Not to say that that can't be arraged legally somehow. But my original intent is to have a game that I can host and had a LAN party, or have my guild be able to connect. I mean, howver far you want to take this concept is really up to the purchaser. I was thinking of just playing it with my grilfriend and maybe some 5 or other 6 friends. We'd just learn different professions/skills as we'd need them for gameplay. So much for player driven economy with such low number of players, but oh well, hey, at least I'm logged in the game and can have part of my memories back.
Off course if u start promoting your server and throwing internet parties in your server.... that's ur choice and your extra bandwidth to pay/worry about.
What reason should the developers allow the game to go on under someone else's banner?
Because the short lifespan of these games is a barrier to entry. It was the biggest barrier for entry in my case. I simply did not see the point in paying so much for a product and service, when my game can disappear for reasons wholly unrelated to my enjoyment.
I can control my purchasing power and my subscription. What I cannot control is everyone else's subscription, and the financial stability of the service. These are out of the subscriber's hands, but they make all the difference.
If the enjoyment of my apartment is dependent on paying my rent, then I am free to enjoy it for as long as I abide by my end.
But if the enjoyment of my apartment is dependent on whether or not everybody is paying their rent, then even if I pay it, I may not be able to enjoy it due to factors outside of my control.
Gamers want to play games. They do not wish to play question marks. Allowing post-publish legacy rights starts to make games less questionable to the skeptical consumer.
__________________________ "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it." --Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints." --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls." --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
I've always wished there was a way to keep a character alive long after the game dies, or after you stop playing it. Maybe if the company developed a screen saver or something that you could load your character into so you would have something to remember your character by.
I am wondering about something.While people are discussing here about if the owner should release the servsoftware after they have shut down the server themself there still arises the question.Did anyone ever made and enquiry to the specific firms like Turbine for AC2 or whoever had the rights on E&B in the end(Westwood?EA?) if they are willing to give the server software and maybe the source code(limited or full acces) away for a fee? Lets take E&B as example.The game is now offline for 3-4 years and so either a red number or a black number in the pocket of the firm.The firm might even think about this if someone made an request and i bet there are enough people out there who would donate some bucks for the revival of E&B.
"You cant say civilization isnt advancing: in every war they kill you in a new way." Will Rogers "We learn from history that we learn nothing from history." - George Bernard Shaw
Originally posted by Toziel I am wondering about something.While people are discussing here about if the owner should release the servsoftware after they have shut down the server themself there still arises the question.Did anyone ever made and enquiry to the specific firms like Turbine for AC2 or whoever had the rights on E&B in the end(Westwood?EA?) if they are willing to give the server software and maybe the source code(limited or full acces) away for a fee? Lets take E&B as example.The game is now offline for 3-4 years and so either a red number or a black number in the pocket of the firm.The firm might even think about this if someone made an request and i bet there are enough people out there who would donate some bucks for the revival of E&B.
Yes they were asked many times but turned down the request. The source code is simply too valuable to give away.
I was sad too when it passed away. It was the same with EnB (I must be some kind of Jonah) but if these games hadn't finished when they did I may not have tried all the other games when in search for a new game to call home.
Originally posted by Zindaihas I've always wished there was a way to keep a character alive long after the game dies, or after you stop playing it. Maybe if the company developed a screen saver or something that you could load your character into so you would have something to remember your character by.
Zindaihas, do you mean a slide show? With screenshots? Or do you mean something like a 3D rendering of your character acting out random emotes? Or maybe the avatar running around in a game landscape?
If the enjoyment of my apartment is dependent on paying my rent, then I am free to enjoy it for as long as I abide by my end. But if the enjoyment of my apartment is dependent on whether or not everybody is paying their rent, then even if I pay it, I may not be able to enjoy it due to factors outside of my control. Gamers want to play games. They do not wish to play question marks. Allowing post-publish legacy rights starts to make games less questionable to the skeptical consumer.
I'll give you even a better story along the lines of that analogy.
Suppose everyone, including you, is paying rent as they should. Then, the landlord, for no apparent logic reason other than "this would be better if it were different" decides to turn your apartment complex into a hollow building. The next day you and your neighbours are no longer that, but workers in a warehouse created inside the now hollow residential building. He gives no further explanation other than "this is better now" . You and your co-workers are still paying rent.
I find myself engaged in complex debates about legality and fairness, which is good, it only goes to show how much was left to debate in the community, as well as the unexposed discontent on the behalf of so many gamers. Turns out it really wasn't just about wheter the gun was balanced with the sword or whether the avatar was customizable or not. What's interesting, is that the more I debate, the more I realize how recent all these issues are, sprouting from a game concept a few years in age only, and therefore, prone to many points of debate, disagreement, misleading and misundrstanding.
Because these games carry serious emotional baggage (just browse the SWG forums here for some concrete evidence), I am starting to realize, that maybe I should just quit mmos altogether and let the industry mature a bit more.
I'm kinda tired of feeling like a guinea pig for both game concepts and developments, as well as for the ethical questions that this industry germinates.
Originally posted by Mithrandolir I would so play E&B if someone had it up and running. I'd even pay 20 bucks a month to play it. No... Eve is not the same for me
Not that Eve is bad... I just really liked E&B. Me and one other person I think
Me three Well I know a whole lot more than three, but who's counting.
Comments
i think its a good idea , it might be possible , but not right after the game dies.
there are tons of freewere games that once were not free.
like the classics : ( hope this are legal sites
)
my first rpg ever : School Daze for ZXspectrum
http://www.mobygames.com/game/zx-spectrum/skool-daze/screenshots
and my first rpg for pc ...
Larry in the land of the lounge lizard , larry 1.
http://www.abandonia.com/games/en/120/LarryInLandofLoungeLizards.htm
this games can be found for free in many sites.
so i guess its possible they will set free ," mmo server sofware and database " for dead mmo games in the future , when the grafics are so ridiculus old like those are today.
anyway , this is one of the reasons im a screenshots maniac , at least i will have the screens to remember.
Guild - http://lightness.goodforum.net/
Blog - http://www.pierrecarlier.com/
I always thought this would be a great last influx of cash option for companies AFTER the game finally died away. They could retool the game to make sure that the spawns existed as well as the game itself, and they could sell it as a final version of the game. For me, it would serve the nostalgia of the old game, and it would give me the opportunity to explore the places I never got to see the first time around.
But something seems to be forgotten. VERY few of the main games have actually shut down. They're still chugging along unless they were outright failures from the get-go, like AC2 or Shadowbane. Earth and Beyond was somewhat of a surprise, but while playing it, you could see it was going to fail because the universe was too limiting and there was NO attempt to expand it.
My blog:
http://www.littlesarbonn.com
I don't believe a company should just give away its work. So i voted no. However, i would like to see them offer a limited non-profit license so people could set up a server with a viable population of around 1 or 2000 players and charge enough to cover the expense. I think that makes sense. I don't think they should charge a large amount for such a license either since there is no profit.
Make a difference!
Thanks for the posts everyone.
let me make it clear that in my question I refer to the following:
- a game or version of the game that has become extinct or obsolete
- the game company would SELL a copy of the required software, not give it away for free
- by being extinct or obsolete, the company has no custumer support/content providing obligations to the purchaser of the copy of the software other than basic functional documentation (something like /help)
- the purchaser should be aware of the limitations/problems of the software and the terms of release of resposibility of support on the company's behalf
- the purchaser would not be paying the company any monthly fees. There is nothing to pay for on a monthly basis. The purchaser only buys a copy, the means, the "tool" to convert his defunct mmo into a regular, user-hosted multiplayer game
However, this is the solution I am proposing, and maybe there are other, better solutions. There's many people in this forum, and all that brain power must surely find good ideas.I'm glad this is such an active post. Obviously it is a problem common to many gamers and by keeping this thread alive companies WILL notice.
We are custumers, they are service providers. We have a need, and it's not currently met. Those who meet our needs get our money.
The message is clear, keep pointing out the problems and shruging shoulders: u get no money.
Find us a solution: u get our money.
-virtual tourist
want your game back?
the op is not asking for the code , so i dont see where people could learn to hack with a tool that provides server task
if you can hack a game with the input output info coming from a server , why cant you from a client ?
Guild - http://lightness.goodforum.net/
Blog - http://www.pierrecarlier.com/
If you want to run a server for an mmo you have to supply new content every so often, as well as bug fix content already there. To do this you need access to the source code.
Without it people will lose interest in the game fast, and therefore the server operators would lose players, making it harder to maintain the server (assumming they charge, If it was a free server you might not have as much of a problem as soon, but it would still happen).
Wrong.
This really is the oldest lamest boogeyman myth in gaming.
You do not buy a licesnse you buy the software, you own it.
In the US, the first sale doctrine, Softman v. Adobe and Novell, inc. v. CPU Distrib., Inc. ruled that software sales are purchases, not licenses.
In the EU this is covered by the Unfair Contract Act.
Copywright Law still applies and reverse engineering the code for profit is not allowed without the copywright holders permission.
You are allowed to fiddle with the code, you are allowed to adapt it to suit your purposes or reverse engineer it to learn how it works.
You are not allowed to use it in another software without permission.
When you sign a publishing licence with a developer to host a game, that is what you get, a publishing licence. We are not talking about purchasing a shrink wrapped piece of software for personal use.
-virtual tourist
want your game back?
well seams like you are the one not paing attention
this is not for " people " , who cares if they will lose interest .. this is for veteran fans , that want to play the game even if its full of bugs , they love it , with the same content forever .
Guild - http://lightness.goodforum.net/
Blog - http://www.pierrecarlier.com/
If you want to run a server for an mmo you have to supply new content every so often, as well as bug fix content already there. To do this you need access to the source code.
Without it people will lose interest in the game fast, and therefore the server operators would lose players, making it harder to maintain the server (assumming they charge, If it was a free server you might not have as much of a problem as soon, but it would still happen).
you know what? I just noticed that last part in parethesis in your post, so my reply kinda hits a mute point, but heck, I still wrote it, here it goes
Yeah, I see that, but the intent here is not to host public servers for any sort of fees or anything. Not to say that that can't be arraged legally somehow. But my original intent is to have a game that I can host and had a LAN party, or have my guild be able to connect. I mean, howver far you want to take this concept is really up to the purchaser. I was thinking of just playing it with my grilfriend and maybe some 5 or other 6 friends. We'd just learn different professions/skills as we'd need them for gameplay. So much for player driven economy with such low number of players, but oh well, hey, at least I'm logged in the game and can have part of my memories back.
Off course if u start promoting your server and throwing internet parties in your server.... that's ur choice and your extra bandwidth to pay/worry about.
-virtual tourist
want your game back?
What reason should the developers allow the game to go on under someone else's banner?
Because the short lifespan of these games is a barrier to entry. It was the biggest barrier for entry in my case. I simply did not see the point in paying so much for a product and service, when my game can disappear for reasons wholly unrelated to my enjoyment.
I can control my purchasing power and my subscription. What I cannot control is everyone else's subscription, and the financial stability of the service. These are out of the subscriber's hands, but they make all the difference.
If the enjoyment of my apartment is dependent on paying my rent, then I am free to enjoy it for as long as I abide by my end.
But if the enjoyment of my apartment is dependent on whether or not everybody is paying their rent, then even if I pay it, I may not be able to enjoy it due to factors outside of my control.
Gamers want to play games. They do not wish to play question marks. Allowing post-publish legacy rights starts to make games less questionable to the skeptical consumer.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
Lets take E&B as example.The game is now offline for 3-4 years and so either a red number or a black number in the pocket of the firm.The firm might even think about this if someone made an request and i bet there are enough people out there who would donate some bucks for the revival of E&B.
"You cant say civilization isnt advancing: in every war they kill you in a new way." Will Rogers
"We learn from history that we learn nothing from history." - George Bernard Shaw
Sorry, the screensaver idea wasn't too clear.
-virtual tourist
want your game back?
Suppose everyone, including you, is paying rent as they should. Then, the landlord, for no apparent logic reason other than "this would be better if it were different" decides to turn your apartment complex into a hollow building. The next day you and your neighbours are no longer that, but workers in a warehouse created inside the now hollow residential building. He gives no further explanation other than "this is better now" .
You and your co-workers are still paying rent.
I find myself engaged in complex debates about legality and fairness, which is good, it only goes to show how much was left to debate in the community, as well as the unexposed discontent on the behalf of so many gamers. Turns out it really wasn't just about wheter the gun was balanced with the sword or whether the avatar was customizable or not.
What's interesting, is that the more I debate, the more I realize how recent all these issues are, sprouting from a game concept a few years in age only, and therefore, prone to many points of debate, disagreement, misleading and misundrstanding.
Because these games carry serious emotional baggage (just browse the SWG forums here for some concrete evidence), I am starting to realize, that maybe I should just quit mmos altogether and let the industry mature a bit more.
I'm kinda tired of feeling like a guinea pig for both game concepts and developments, as well as for the ethical questions that this industry germinates.
-virtual tourist
want your game back?
Sorry about the double post, but here's a somewhat similar topic regarding the ownership of the results/progression of a player's efforts in-game:
http://www.wired.com/news/culture/0,70909-0.html?tw=wn_index_1
-virtual tourist
want your game back?
-virtual tourist
want your game back?
Me three
Well I know a whole lot more than three, but who's counting. 
/freebump
EnB Exiles
GuardiansOfOrion.com
-virtual tourist
want your game back?
-virtual tourist
want your game back?
-virtual tourist
want your game back?