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[RETRACTION] OPINION: Saga of Lucimia Creative Director's View of Crunch is Out of Touch

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  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 43,975
    Iselin said:
    Why is this game getting so much press here? MMO news must be at an all time low lol.
    Because the developer is one of the few, if not the only one, who still posts here on a regular basis.
    And actually publishes target release dates....
    RenfailAmathe

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • ChildoftheShadowsChildoftheShadows Member EpicPosts: 2,193
    edited March 2020
    Why is this game getting so much press here? MMO news must be at an all time low lol.
    It’s an mmo in development. If MMORPG.com doesn’t cover it then why  would it still exist (it being the website)
    bcbullykitarad
  • RenfailRenfail Member EpicPosts: 1,638
    edited March 2020
    Iselin said:
    Why is this game getting so much press here? MMO news must be at an all time low lol.
    Because the developer is one of the few, if not the only one, who still posts here on a regular basis.
    And based on this piece being allowed to be published, I probably won't be coming back anytime soon :) 


    The funny thing is that the writer sent me an email suggesting they were writing a simple overview piece and asked me for some additional quotes, which I was happy to provide because I think it's an important issue to talk about and hopefully move the industry away from (crunch in general). 

    What I was not expecting was an article that was absolutely *not* an overview, but rather a hit piece on how the writer disagreed with my statements (despite my statements being in agreement that CRUNCH IS BAD!), and then twisting my statements completely out of context to fit some sort of presumed narrative that is far from anything factual.

    I've reached out to Joseph for clarification on why this piece was allowed to be run in such a duplicitous manner under the guise of a simple overview piece, when the writer clearly intended to write an opinion/smear piece from the get-go, and what they hoped to accomplish when they had previously stated they were hoping to establishing a working relationship with their new staff and games like ours. 

    bcbullyForgrimmAmatheKyleranTuor7AlomarSailorMomGdemami
    Tim "Renfail" Anderson | Wandering Hermits Patreon
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 17,586
    Renfail said:
    Iselin said:
    Why is this game getting so much press here? MMO news must be at an all time low lol.
    Because the developer is one of the few, if not the only one, who still posts here on a regular basis.
    And based on this piece being allowed to be published, I probably won't be coming back anytime soon :) 


    The funny thing is that the writer sent me an email suggesting they were writing a simple overview piece and asked me for some additional quotes, which I was happy to provide because I think it's an important issue to talk about and hopefully move the industry away from (crunch in general). 

    What I was not expecting was an article that was absolutely *not* an overview, but rather a hit piece on how the writer disagreed with my statements (despite my statements being in agreement that CRUNCH IS BAD!), and then twisting my statements completely out of context to fit some sort of presumed narrative that is far from anything factual.

    I've reached out to Joseph for clarification on why this piece was allowed to be run in such a duplicitous manner under the guise of a simple overview piece, when the writer clearly intended to write an opinion/smear piece from the get-go, and what they hoped to accomplish when they had previously stated they were hoping to establishing a working relationship with their new staff and games like ours. 

    Clicks.
    RenfailKyleranmmolou

    All time classic  MY NEW FAVORITE POST!  (Keep laying those bricks)

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

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  • RenfailRenfail Member EpicPosts: 1,638

    Clicks.
    Why is there no "sad face" reaction  :(
    Amathe
    Tim "Renfail" Anderson | Wandering Hermits Patreon
  • BruceYeeBruceYee Member EpicPosts: 2,556
    Renfail said:
    Bowing out for the night, folks :) Heading over for our weekly Wednesday night sessions of our non-existent, unplayable game with our alpha community. 

    Be back tomorrow if there are ongoing questions to answer or factchecking to provide!

    And don't forget next Wednesday, the 18th, where we'll be live-streaming our non-existent, unplayable game on Twitch!

    Why didn't you answer my questions and then continue to respond in multiple posts to others after you said you are "bowing out for the night"?

    My questions include your own words which you now contradict so how about providing some answers for the specifics I asked about.
    bcbullymmolou
  • NireleenNireleen Newbie CommonPosts: 4
    edited March 2020
    BruceYee said:
    Renfail said:
    Bowing out for the night, folks :) Heading over for our weekly Wednesday night sessions of our non-existent, unplayable game with our alpha community. 

    Be back tomorrow if there are ongoing questions to answer or factchecking to provide!

    And don't forget next Wednesday, the 18th, where we'll be live-streaming our non-existent, unplayable game on Twitch!

    Why didn't you answer my questions and then continue to respond in multiple posts to others after you said you are "bowing out for the night"?

    My questions include your own words which you now contradict so how about providing some answers for the specifics I asked about.
    Probably because you seem to have an answer for everything.  You have already made up your mind, and refuse to listen.  If you get an answer, you question the answer and huff and puff.  Why would anyone waste the energy into answering someone who won't be satisfied with what they hear?  [mod edit]
    Post edited by Vaross on
    KyleranbcbullymmolouGdemami
  • AmatheAmathe Member LegendaryPosts: 7,630
    edited March 2020
    I think if Poorna had wanted to do an article about workplace issues (such as work hours) at game companies, that would have been a worthwhile topic. Part of the article is that, and that part is ok.

    But singling out and attacking a particular person in the industry, and not being fair to that person in the process, is out of bounds.

    In my line of work I do a lot of writing, and a lot of reading. Now and then there are writers who think that their work needs shock value or scandal to be interesting. It's a shame, really.

    This isn't the first time this has happened, and under current mmorpg.com policies and leadership, I suspect it won't be the last. 

    I personally don't think it helps this website to garner a reputation for being the National Enquirer of the gaming press.




    KyleranRenfailbcbullykitaradmmolouSailorMomLackingMMO

    EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests

  • RenfailRenfail Member EpicPosts: 1,638
    Amathe said:
    I think if Pooma had wanted to do an article about workplace issues (such as work hours) at game companies, that would have been a worthwhile topic. Part of the article is that, and that part is ok.

    But singling out and attacking a particular person in the industry, and not being fair to that person in the process, is out of bounds.

    In my line of work I do a lot of writing, and a lot of reading. Now and then there are writers who think that their work needs shock value or scandal to be interesting. It's a shame, really.

    This isn't the first time this has happened, and under current mmorpg.com policies and leadership, I suspect it won't be the last. 

    I personally don't think it helps this website to garner a reputation for being the National Enquirer of the gaming press.




    In his email to me (I'm happy to share if folks want to wade into the deeper waters with me for the sake of clarity and to show that I'm not making any of this up), his proposal was exactly that: an article about workplace issues at game companies. 

    Which was why I was HAPPY to provide additional commentary, because I'm all for eliminating unnecessary crunch from the industry. Who, in their right mind, would want to provide quotes for an article that would turn around and attack them? No one I know, and I was certainly under the impression that the article was going to be being written about workplace issues, not me as a personal individual.

    What was subsequently published was NOT an article about workplace issues at game companies. Instead, the writer used workplace issues and out-of-context quotes from me to spin a false narrative about myself, and my company. This isn't opinion; this is defamation. 

    I get it. I'm a public face who is well-known for making controversial comments and not being afraid to wade into the thick of it when replying to trolls and the like. And being a public figure you expect there to be some overall shenanigans when it comes to shock-jocks taking liberty with your quotes. 

    I want to thank everyone in this thread who has spoken out against the article as nothing more than a smear piece/hit piece. I appreciate clarity and clear-headed readers in the face of such blatant ignorance. 
    LackingMMO
    Tim "Renfail" Anderson | Wandering Hermits Patreon
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 43,975
    edited March 2020
    Amathe said:
    I think if Poorna had wanted to do an article about workplace issues (such as work hours) at game companies, that would have been a worthwhile topic. Part of the article is that, and that part is ok.

    But singling out and attacking a particular person in the industry, and not being fair to that person in the process, is out of bounds.

    In my line of work I do a lot of writing, and a lot of reading. Now and then there are writers who think that their work needs shock value or scandal to be interesting. It's a shame, really.

    This isn't the first time this has happened, and under current mmorpg.com policies and leadership, I suspect it won't be the last. 

    I personally don't think it helps this website to garner a reputation for being the National Enquirer of the gaming press.




    Yeah, this was my thoughts, fine if the author wanted to write an article generally decrying the  perception of crunch vs OT in the industry and include a comment or two from Tim and several other sources to support, but no need to target him as if he was the leader of Rockstar games or EA.

    I won't often say it, but this time I believe a formal apology is warranted, in public if Tim agrees to such being shared.



    RenfailAmathekitaradAlomarmmolou

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • RenfailRenfail Member EpicPosts: 1,638
    Kyleran said:

    Yeah, this was my thoughts, fine if the author wanted to write an article generally decrying the  perception of crunch vs OT in the industry and include a comment or two from Tim and several other sources to support, but no need to target him as if he was the leader of Rockstar games or EA.

    I won't often say it, but this time I believe a formal apology is warranted, in public if Tim agrees to such being shared.


    Based on their email to me, that's what I thought I was participating in. 

    I appreciate the support. And yes, I would absolutely accept a formal apology (public) and a retraction of the piece as it currently stands. 

    I reached out for clarification last night, but so far it's been radio silence from their team (it's still early, so we'll seee). 


    RexKushman
    Tim "Renfail" Anderson | Wandering Hermits Patreon
  • bentrimbentrim Member UncommonPosts: 299
    Well I see that I got censored for my post on Poorna. So if someone expresses an opinion you don't like, you wipe it out?!!?? Pretty pathetic!!!
    Alomar
  • bcbullybcbully Member EpicPosts: 11,843
    Some of y’all are too old to be putting on your white armor.
    mmolou
  • bcbullybcbully Member EpicPosts: 11,843
    BruceYee said:
    Renfail said:
    BruceYee said:
    snip
    And yet we've had a playable product since September of 2015, one that gets better every day. 

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZe8GaZS3Fs

    Win-win for our backers, win-win for our investors, win-win for our well-compensated and never-had-to-work-a-single-hour-of-overtime contractors (because we plan our shit out methodically and we unpaid partners in Stormhaven Studios take no salary while shouldering the bulk of the workload).  


    That's right. I've still not drawn a dime of salary on the project. Maybe you missed that fact, even though it's been mentioned hundreds of times here and elsewhere.

    I actually *still* work a part-time job to pay the bills for my wife and I (though I lived on a personal loan for 2018 and 2019), which I've mentioned in many other places. 

    So ON TOP of working 80+ hour work weeks on the Saga of Lucimia, I also work a good 20-ish hours a week on that other project :) 

    Ain't nobody but ME paying for my air-conditioned office. 

    Facts. They're not only fun, they're your friend!

    Fact >>> "I make a living from game development" these are your own words. Now you're saying you don't?

    Where does the money you collect from pledges go if not into your own company and your game? How do your contractors get paid? Do you pay them with your salary from your 20 hour a week job or from the loan you got?

    Fact >>> "I work 12-16 hours a day on SoL" again your own words. On top of that you go to work at your other job? If you're not a developer what exactly do you do for 12-16 hours a day 5 days a week? 80-100+ hour work week each week total for two jobs must be pretty hard to have time left over to hang out on forums and answer questions.

    That youtube video was a video of you playing the game like every other video of the game. I'm talking about a PLAYABLE demo like Crowfall not some controlled play test.

    Also, how many years has this game been in development?
    Great post. I’d love to see these apparent contradictions explained as well. 

    They could very well be a misunderstanding like he says this article is.
    Gdemami
  • KnightFalzKnightFalz Member EpicPosts: 4,522
    BruceYee said:
    BruceYee said:

    I'm happy you're able to pursue your dream using other people's money. There are A LOT of games on Steam that are/where dream/passion projects of individuals that either self funded or found investors. Some created a PLAYABLE product, released it on early access to earn some extra funds to continue working on it like REAL honest people. Project Gorgon, Inferna, Reign of Darkness off the top of my head. It's strange when mentioning early access as the more honest approach to funding but compared to hope peddling with a tech demo it is.

    I don't know what Project:Gorgon you're playing, but mine cost me $45 CDN and it's nowhere near finished. That doesn't include the optional packages you can pick up ranging from $50 - $500 US selling features that do not yet exist and VIP membership bonuses not yet defined.

    So, if Project:Gorgon meets your standards of people being real and honest it seems to me your evaluation of Saga of Lucimia and those involved may have a wee bit of bias.
    I bought it for 29 when they added it to Steam. They released a PLAYABLE product for a price. They keep adding content to that game YEARS after they added it to Steam. Compare that to this game side by side and this one is no where near release yet they are asking for money with no guarantee the game will ever come out.

    I'm going to assume that's $29 US which puts us about the same for cost, with any variance likely due to differences in exchange rate.

    P:G was indeed playable upon release on Steam, and had indeed been so for a good deal of time before hand.

    To their credit, one could play P:G without cost before it came to Steam and can still play a demo of it before committing any money to it.

    A lot of work is done on the game on an ongoing basis, including the recent release (mostly) of the fairy race.

    That's all well and good, ideal some would say.

    But, it also focuses exclusively on the bright side.

    To describe the graphics of the game as outdated would be seen as charitable by many. On top of that, the frame rate often isn't all that great overland, and at times reminiscent of a slideshow (the town of Serbule says hello). This has been so for a very long time, and I expect will go on for quite some time yet.

    Also, for some reason, your post didn't address the sale of mounts and features that do no yet exist (and therefore may not come to pass) for $50 to $500 US, which is at least somewhat similar to selling anything else that does not yet exist in a released state.

    There is a bit of tarnish on that P:G silver.

    If I was going to compare one game to another, I would do so at a similar stage of development, not one prior to release to another that had already been out a good number of years before it was on the Steam platform, and still remains in early access after all that time.

    Finally, P:G is no stranger to crowd funding, trying to drink from the Kickstarter trough numerous times with mixed results.

    I believe your view on P:G is very much on the sunny side of street, at least in this particular comparison.
    RexKushmanRenfail
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 43,975
    edited March 2020
    bcbully said:
    Some of y’all are too old to be putting on your white armor.
    Mine tends to be more purple than anything else, well except for my white "Sword of Hyperbole."

    Or is it Hypocrisy? I can never remember,  so many good tools in my arsenal.

     >:) 
    bcbully[Deleted User]

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 43,975
    bentrim said:
    Well I see that I got censored for my post on Poorna. So if someone expresses an opinion you don't like, you wipe it out?!!?? Pretty pathetic!!!
    Well now one has to be careful attacking posters directly.
    RenfailAlomar

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • KnightFalzKnightFalz Member EpicPosts: 4,522
    Renfail said:
    Bowing out for the night, folks :) Heading over for our weekly Wednesday night sessions of our non-existent, unplayable game with our alpha community. 

    Beyond your company and alpha community your game doesn't as yet exist. Even the most promising race matters little until the finish line is crossed.

    Perhaps it would be best to dial this type of rhetoric down a tad.
    Mendelborghive49
  • lotrlorelotrlore Managing EditorMMORPG.COM Staff, Member RarePosts: 662
    Hi all - wanted to provide an update. We've issued a retraction and apology to Tim and Stormhaven Studios for the way this article was presented and put together.

    You can view the full apology on the article itself, but I know many of you just come directly for the discussion, so I wanted to make sure you were all aware of this as well.

    Thanks again for reading, and we aim to be better moving forward.
    RenfailAmatheIselinTuor7KnightFalzSlapshot1188ChildoftheShadowsKyleranSailorMomborghive49and 1 other.
  • AmatheAmathe Member LegendaryPosts: 7,630
    Article retracted with an apology. Very well done. That's the mmorpg.com that has kept me here since early 2005.
    RenfailKyleran

    EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests

  • RenfailRenfail Member EpicPosts: 1,638
    lotrlore said:
    Hi all - wanted to provide an update. We've issued a retraction and apology to Tim and Stormhaven Studios for the way this article was presented and put together.

    You can view the full apology on the article itself, but I know many of you just come directly for the discussion, so I wanted to make sure you were all aware of this as well.

    Thanks again for reading, and we aim to be better moving forward.
    Thanks. 
    AmatheTuor7Kyleranborghive49
    Tim "Renfail" Anderson | Wandering Hermits Patreon
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 18,719
    lotrlore said:
    Hi all - wanted to provide an update. We've issued a retraction and apology to Tim and Stormhaven Studios for the way this article was presented and put together.

    You can view the full apology on the article itself, but I know many of you just come directly for the discussion, so I wanted to make sure you were all aware of this as well.

    Thanks again for reading, and we aim to be better moving forward.
    Well done.
    AmatheRenfailmmolouKyleran
    "Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”

    ― Umberto Eco

    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

  • SlyLoKSlyLoK Member RarePosts: 2,698
    QQ.

    Going to be plenty of it when the fire starts.
  • RenfailRenfail Member EpicPosts: 1,638
    Amathe said:
    Article retracted with an apology. Very well done. That's the mmorpg.com that has kept me here since early 2005.
    I agree. 
    Tim "Renfail" Anderson | Wandering Hermits Patreon
  • RenfailRenfail Member EpicPosts: 1,638
    Iselin said:
    lotrlore said:
    Hi all - wanted to provide an update. We've issued a retraction and apology to Tim and Stormhaven Studios for the way this article was presented and put together.

    You can view the full apology on the article itself, but I know many of you just come directly for the discussion, so I wanted to make sure you were all aware of this as well.

    Thanks again for reading, and we aim to be better moving forward.
    Well done.
    Agree!
    Tim "Renfail" Anderson | Wandering Hermits Patreon
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