If you don't want to work at a job that has crunch/overtime (same thing) then don't go into that line of work. Go sell fishing lures on the beach in Key West and live on your own schedule. In the real world there are deadlines, budgets and expectations. If you can't handle that then you are either in the wrong line of work or too lazy to start a business yourself and run it the way you want.
Every single boss on the planet will push the limits,if you give an inch they'll go for 2 inches and so on,so it is not that simple to say,stay out.
Also the implication seems to be biased,it is as if implying the workers are not already giving the employer something of value and that MORE should be expected.
I live by a rule that sort of follows in life in general,when you ASK something of someone you SHOULD as a mature adult be ready to expect a NO for answer.Way too often i see someone asking a favor and EXPECTS the answer to be yes,that is not asking that is demanding and no worker on the planet wants to follow demands because ti is a TWO way street both sides are offering and giving already.
On the SOLE premise that Tim felt the article was attacking him,then sure fine i accept the retraction as MATURE and legit.However if this was to merely retract because the developer says so that is even yet WORSE editorial standards,in other words very poor judgement and ethics.
However,yeah we are all human,if someone feels attacked,then sure the other party can say i am sorry,there is nothing wrong with that.However i have seen this side of the fence in the past and it has NEVER in all the years i have been reading here,EVER gone the other way.In the past "fanbois"scoffed at a negative review so this site changed their opinion like 2 days later and gave the game a positive review.To me that is bullshit,your opinion should stick,you say something you mean it.If one feels a poor use of words ,again fine,maybe what they said came off wrong but like i said,this has NEVER gone the other way going from positive to negative,makes you wonder.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
My opinion is that Tim is absolutely wrong,like 100% wrong in his assessment that only long term employees deserve a fair shake and that short term 4-6 people should be treated different almost as if slaves?
When you make a statement that says 4-6 week employees have NO RIGHT to complain,that is definitely treating them like slaves,like they have no rights to ever say no.
This is why we have labor laws because employers can simply not be trusted.Even a good employer on occasion will be a different person and start with demands for whatever reason,a bad day,angry at someone so takes it out on everyone.Labor laws are already VERY weak,you have to prove something and if not an easy prove you'll likely lose unless you hire a real good lawyer and even then is it worth it?
So since Tim asked for a retraction,is he ready to man up and retract his statement that 4-6 week people have no right to complain?This is nearly as bad as racism or saying women have no rights,EVERY single person on this planet should be treated an equal,correct or not?
As well when you ask something of your employees,a NO should be accepted without further insults or saying they have no right to say anything.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
My opinion is that Tim is absolutely wrong,like 100% wrong in his assessment that only long term employees deserve a fair shake and that short term 4-6 people should be treated different almost as if slaves?
When you make a statement that says 4-6 week employees have NO RIGHT to complain,that is definitely treating them like slaves,like they have no rights to ever say no.
This is why we have labor laws because employers can simply not be trusted.Even a good employer on occasion will be a different person and start with demands for whatever reason,a bad day,angry at someone so takes it out on everyone.Labor laws are already VERY weak,you have to prove something and if not an easy prove you'll likely lose unless you hire a real good lawyer and even then is it worth it?
So since Tim asked for a retraction,is he ready to man up and retract his statement that 4-6 week people have no right to complain?This is nearly as bad as racism or saying women have no rights,EVERY single person on this planet should be treated an equal,correct or not?
As well when you ask something of your employees,a NO should be accepted without further insults or saying they have no right to say anything.
So the article gets retracted, then you figure "I'll just rewrite it". You're comparing temp contracted employees having less stake in a company to racism and womens rights.
delete just had brain surgery, what exactly is your excuse?
The apology should come from the person who wrote the hit piece.
If that person doesn’t agree with it and directly say anything then we know where they stand.
I personally don’t want an apology from someone if they don’t mean it. I would rather they just stop writing, or better yet, change their attitude/style.
Win-win for our backers, win-win for our investors, win-win for our well-compensated and never-had-to-work-a-single-hour-of-overtime contractors (because we plan our shit out methodically and we unpaid partners in Stormhaven Studios take no salary while shouldering the bulk of the workload).
That's right. I've still not drawn a dime of salary on the project. Maybe you missed that fact, even though it's been mentioned hundreds of times here and elsewhere.
I actually *still* work a part-time job to pay the bills for my wife and I (though I lived on a personal loan for 2018 and 2019), which I've mentioned in many other places.
So ON TOP of working 80+ hour work weeks on the Saga of Lucimia, I also work a good 20-ish hours a week on that other project
Ain't nobody but ME paying for my air-conditioned office.
Facts. They're not only fun, they're your friend!
Fact >>> "I make a living from game development" these are your own words. Now you're saying you don't?
Where does the money you collect from pledges go if not into your own company and your game? How do your contractors get paid? Do you pay them with your salary from your 20 hour a week job or from the loan you got?
Fact >>> "I work 12-16 hours a day on SoL" again your own words. On top of that you go to work at your other job? If you're not a developer what exactly do you do for 12-16 hours a day 5 days a week? 80-100+ hour work week each week total for two jobs must be pretty hard to have time left over to hang out on forums and answer questions.
That youtube video was a video of you playing the game like every other video of the game. I'm talking about a PLAYABLE demo like Crowfall not some controlled play test.
Also, how many years has this game been in development?
Great post. I’d love to see these apparent contradictions explained as well.
They could very well be a misunderstanding like he says this article is.
All I wanted was an answer to why he contradicted HIS OWN WORDS. Then my legit fact based questions go unanswered and yes they are facts because he himself said what I asked about. Being labeled a "douche canoe" by some alt account for asking simple questions means there must be something there if the person cannot explain his own words and needs other people to create alt accounts to try and stop questions from being asked.
Everyone here defending the guy now playing the victim after this site in a article titled OPINION brings up the guy behind the game who apparently lacks some knowledge about something so what's the big deal? They quoted his OWN WORDS, they did not make anything up so how can any reasonable person play the victim when his own words were quoted? He himself said he "has no history developing games" and his history is working with cattle and construction so why so defensive? Maybe because once people know that the captain of the ship doesn't know how to sail everyone will stop giving him free money to fund his "dream"? Protect that at all costs I guess? Even if it means threatening a site he has used as a primary source of advertising to fund his sche...dream for years?
Remember that saying that used to be thrown around here "It's okay because they're not asking for money" well guess what this guy is, as a matter of FACT there's a timer counting down the days, hours, minutes on his site til you can give him free money again for a game that has already been in development for 5 years and does not even have a PLAYABLE working demo. He says the game will be out by q4 2021 but remember all those other crowdfunded games that also had release dates? CU, Crowfall, CoE, AoC, SC.... so how is this game any different?
Just because this guy talks to lonely gamers on gaming sites about game theory and concepts doesn't give him a free pass to not answer real questions. Tim Anderson has been using gaming sites as a advertising tool for years to fund his project and get free money so why shouldn't those sites be able to post their OPINION on THEIR platform? Gaming journalists/writers are still journalists/writers and their job/duty/passion is to ask questions and get to bottom of things. The blatant disrespect shown by some posters here towards the new writers/journalists on this site is appalling to say the least. This article had a big fat all caps OPINION label so what more could anyone want? Total obedience apparently...
If you don't want to work at a job that has crunch/overtime (same thing) then don't go into that line of work. Go sell fishing lures on the beach in Key West and live on your own schedule. In the real world there are deadlines, budgets and expectations. If you can't handle that then you are either in the wrong line of work or too lazy to start a business yourself and run it the way you want.
How delightfully condescending and uninformed.
"Crunch" is not the same as overtime.
I get asked to work overtime on Saturday and if I say No then they ask the next guy. In the video games industry you get told to work 12 to 16 hours a day, 6 days a week, for months or you're fired.
I am the manager of a delivery warehouse, we deal with "crunch" every single day. My team builds all of our customer orders and loads all of our delivery trucks. We have 12 hours from the time the deliveries come in until the trucks roll out in the morning and ALL of the work has to be done. It doesn't matter if its 10k cases or 35k cases, 12 hrs is all we have. Add in the extra volume in our busy season and every single day can be daunting. If the work doesn't get done I can "force" our team to come in on their days off, it's in their contracts. All of this is laid out before a job is offered to someone. I have no sympathy, we all choose where we work and what we do with our time. Don't like it? Find a new job.
Not the same thing. Your warehouse workers get paid overtime for working more than a 40 hour week (I was a warehouse manager, too, and ran the budget so I always knew how much and how many could work overtime per fiscal quarter). In the game industry, everyone except QA is paid salary and do not get paid overtime for time worked over 40 hours per week. Jobs in the game industry are not "dream jobs." Ignorant college students, most of the slobbering masses who play the games, and entitled business owners all seem to think working in the game industry is a dream and people in it should be thankful and shut up. Most veterans in the game industry end up leaving because the truly thankless jobs and overwork kills any passion for the industry, unless they were C-Level or got all the credit for a game despite 100's of other working on it.
I make spreadsheets at work - I don't want to make them for the games I play.
It sounds like the author simply doesn't like his job/management while Tim does. Most of us have been there if you are over a certain age and have been in the job force for at least a few decades.
I'm 40, and I'm making a video game for a living. What's not to love? It's literally my dream job, and even after six years of unpaid 80 hour minimum work weeks and no time off, I still haven't had a single day where it has felt like work. If you love what you do, it never feels like work.
Not like the days sweating or freezing my ass off in the elements and breaking my back as a third generation ceramic tile and natural stone contractor for 15 years. Or growing up on a dairy farm and being forced to work from 4 a.m. until 9 p.m. daily without a choice in the matter for the first 16 years of my life.
My favorite was my old man forcing me to take out a loan at 14 years of age to start a hay-hauling business, out in the blazing heat of the Missouri summers. If you've never bucked hay all summer and dealt with heat stroke while working 16 hour days, you don't know what you're missing.
Or being 15 years old and farmed out to the local large animal vet who needed an extra hand for the summer, chasing cows around fields on foot and trying to corral them so they could be vaccinated, dehorned/castrated/etc.
Sitting in a climate-controlled space working 12 - 16 hour days on my dream project is paradise compared to those days, and there's not a day that goes by where I don't cherish the possibility to pursue my dream, or the hard work that it took to get here.
Well that's YOU. Don't expect everyone else to have that kind of obsession. If your goal in life is to devote every waking hour to your work, good on you! Most people enjoy experiencing other things in life on top of their work. Not everyone is singularly focused on one, life consuming thing, and for you to (seemingly) expect everyone else to be like you and have that same singular focus & obsession, that just speaks volumes of your narcissism and complete lack of empathy for different people and personalities.
I make spreadsheets at work - I don't want to make them for the games I play.
Win-win for our backers, win-win for our investors, win-win for our well-compensated and never-had-to-work-a-single-hour-of-overtime contractors (because we plan our shit out methodically and we unpaid partners in Stormhaven Studios take no salary while shouldering the bulk of the workload).
That's right. I've still not drawn a dime of salary on the project. Maybe you missed that fact, even though it's been mentioned hundreds of times here and elsewhere.
I actually *still* work a part-time job to pay the bills for my wife and I (though I lived on a personal loan for 2018 and 2019), which I've mentioned in many other places.
So ON TOP of working 80+ hour work weeks on the Saga of Lucimia, I also work a good 20-ish hours a week on that other project
Ain't nobody but ME paying for my air-conditioned office.
Facts. They're not only fun, they're your friend!
Fact >>> "I make a living from game development" these are your own words. Now you're saying you don't?
Where does the money you collect from pledges go if not into your own company and your game? How do your contractors get paid? Do you pay them with your salary from your 20 hour a week job or from the loan you got?
Fact >>> "I work 12-16 hours a day on SoL" again your own words. On top of that you go to work at your other job? If you're not a developer what exactly do you do for 12-16 hours a day 5 days a week? 80-100+ hour work week each week total for two jobs must be pretty hard to have time left over to hang out on forums and answer questions.
That youtube video was a video of you playing the game like every other video of the game. I'm talking about a PLAYABLE demo like Crowfall not some controlled play test.
Also, how many years has this game been in development?
Great post. I’d love to see these apparent contradictions explained as well.
They could very well be a misunderstanding like he says this article is.
I'm here to help.
Tim pays his bills for the past two years using money from a loan along with his 20 hr a week part time gig.
He does work more than a full time job developing SoL, just not getting paid until after the job is done.
Money collected from pledges (and presumably his investor) has always gone to paying the part time contract staff members, Tim and his 3 partners don't take any salary from either.
What does he do for them if not a developer? Well PR and chief fundraiser for sure, probably handles some or all of the financials as well.
I've worked full time including lots of OT for more than 20 years delivering software with very little as a "developer. Plenty of other jobs such as project management, QA, writing requirements, architecture and design and general management. My guess he does some or much of the above.
So, now that I've cleared up the "contradictions" you both are happy, yes?
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
The apology should come from the person who wrote the hit piece.
The writer only wrote something. I, too, could write something. What matters is not who wrote the article, but who authorized it to be posted. That person took responsibility not for writing the article, but for allowing it to be posted on this site.
He apologized for that, and I think that he was sincere. I'm fine with the rest remaining between the author and the editor, as I personally feel that a forced apology (not that any apology from him would necessarily be forced) is worse than none at all.
I, at least, believe that mistakes were made, lessons were learned, apologies were issued, and that now it's time to move on. Dragging this out any further won't benefit anyone, IMO.
This retraction is an embarrassment. Did the author change their opinion or is this a case where a website is more concerned with its reputation (and relations with one vendor) so they retracted the story? I think the real question (that no one seems to be asking) is "Does the author of that opinion piece still work at/contribute to MMORPG.com?"
A forced retraction is as bad a version of journalism as the prior regime's "Best Game" fiasco.
The forum members are the only things interesting at this site.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
If you don't want to work at a job that has crunch/overtime (same thing) then don't go into that line of work. Go sell fishing lures on the beach in Key West and live on your own schedule. In the real world there are deadlines, budgets and expectations. If you can't handle that then you are either in the wrong line of work or too lazy to start a business yourself and run it the way you want.
How delightfully condescending and uninformed.
"Crunch" is not the same as overtime.
I get asked to work overtime on Saturday and if I say No then they ask the next guy. In the video games industry you get told to work 12 to 16 hours a day, 6 days a week, for months or you're fired.
I am the manager of a delivery warehouse, we deal with "crunch" every single day. My team builds all of our customer orders and loads all of our delivery trucks. We have 12 hours from the time the deliveries come in until the trucks roll out in the morning and ALL of the work has to be done. It doesn't matter if its 10k cases or 35k cases, 12 hrs is all we have. Add in the extra volume in our busy season and every single day can be daunting. If the work doesn't get done I can "force" our team to come in on their days off, it's in their contracts. All of this is laid out before a job is offered to someone. I have no sympathy, we all choose where we work and what we do with our time. Don't like it? Find a new job.
Not the same thing. Your warehouse workers get paid overtime for working more than a 40 hour week (I was a warehouse manager, too, and ran the budget so I always knew how much and how many could work overtime per fiscal quarter). In the game industry, everyone except QA is paid salary and do not get paid overtime for time worked over 40 hours per week. Jobs in the game industry are not "dream jobs." Ignorant college students, most of the slobbering masses who play the games, and entitled business owners all seem to think working in the game industry is a dream and people in it should be thankful and shut up. Most veterans in the game industry end up leaving because the truly thankless jobs and overwork kills any passion for the industry, unless they were C-Level or got all the credit for a game despite 100's of other working on it.
Once again, that is their choice. Nobody is holding a gun to to their heads and forcing them to go into game development. Personal responsibility has to play into this, If you don't want to work in a high stress industry that's known for tight budgets and tight deadlines then do something else.
The apology should come from the person who wrote the hit piece.
The writer only wrote something. I, too, could write something. What matters is not who wrote the article, but who authorized it to be posted. That person took responsibility not for writing the article, but for allowing it to be posted on this site.
He apologized for that, and I think that he was sincere. I'm fine with the rest remaining between the author and the editor, as I personally feel that a forced apology (not that any apology from him would necessarily be forced) is worse than none at all.
I, at least, believe that mistakes were made, lessons were learned, apologies were issued, and that now it's time to move on. Dragging this out any further won't benefit anyone, IMO.
I can understand your point but i disagree. This wasn't just some random opinion piece, the OP deliberately lied to someone then wrote a hit piece against that person. OP should either be forced to admit what he did and apologize or be removed from the staff.
So, now that I've cleared up the "contradictions" .... you are happy?
No. I have more questions! I demand answers! I demand to interrogate Tim about every dollar he has ever been paid or spent. Why do I make this demand? Because I am angry! I am an ANGERBALL! GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR. *Must waterboard Tim for more info.*
Did I donate to Tim's company? No! Have I lost anything? No! Will I play his game? No! So why do I give a shit? Because I am angry! I am an ANGERBALL! *Must find someone to take it out on. *
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
It sounds like the author simply doesn't like his job/management while Tim does. Most of us have been there if you are over a certain age and have been in the job force for at least a few decades.
I'm 40, and I'm making a video game for a living. What's not to love? It's literally my dream job, and even after six years of unpaid 80 hour minimum work weeks and no time off, I still haven't had a single day where it has felt like work. If you love what you do, it never feels like work.
Not like the days sweating or freezing my ass off in the elements and breaking my back as a third generation ceramic tile and natural stone contractor for 15 years. Or growing up on a dairy farm and being forced to work from 4 a.m. until 9 p.m. daily without a choice in the matter for the first 16 years of my life.
My favorite was my old man forcing me to take out a loan at 14 years of age to start a hay-hauling business, out in the blazing heat of the Missouri summers. If you've never bucked hay all summer and dealt with heat stroke while working 16 hour days, you don't know what you're missing.
Or being 15 years old and farmed out to the local large animal vet who needed an extra hand for the summer, chasing cows around fields on foot and trying to corral them so they could be vaccinated, dehorned/castrated/etc.
Sitting in a climate-controlled space working 12 - 16 hour days on my dream project is paradise compared to those days, and there's not a day that goes by where I don't cherish the possibility to pursue my dream, or the hard work that it took to get here.
Well that's YOU. Don't expect everyone else to have that kind of obsession. If your goal in life is to devote every waking hour to your work, good on you! Most people enjoy experiencing other things in life on top of their work. Not everyone is singularly focused on one, life consuming thing, and for you to (seemingly) expect everyone else to be like you and have that same singular focus & obsession, that just speaks volumes of your narcissism and complete lack of empathy for different people and personalities.
You never even bothered to read his posts or you're being extremely disingenuous.
This retraction is an embarrassment. Did the author change their opinion or is this a case where a website is more concerned with its reputation (and relations with one vendor) so they retracted the story? I think the real question (that no one seems to be asking) is "Does the author of that opinion piece still work at/contribute to MMORPG.com?"
A forced retraction is as bad a version of journalism as the prior regime's "Best Game" fiasco.
The forum members are the only things interesting at this site.
I would say the forum members are even more of an embarrassment than the article.
If this had been a major publisher then everyone would be crying foul over the retraction and apology over an unfavorable opinion piece, but since it's an "indie darling" the forum cheers.
MMORPG.com practically admits to "scratch my back, I'll scratch your back" journalism and no one minds.
Ever since the good staff left this place really has become worthless.
If you don't want to work at a job that has crunch/overtime (same thing) then don't go into that line of work. Go sell fishing lures on the beach in Key West and live on your own schedule. In the real world there are deadlines, budgets and expectations. If you can't handle that then you are either in the wrong line of work or too lazy to start a business yourself and run it the way you want.
How delightfully condescending and uninformed.
"Crunch" is not the same as overtime.
I get asked to work overtime on Saturday and if I say No then they ask the next guy. In the video games industry you get told to work 12 to 16 hours a day, 6 days a week, for months or you're fired.
I am the manager of a delivery warehouse, we deal with "crunch" every single day. My team builds all of our customer orders and loads all of our delivery trucks. We have 12 hours from the time the deliveries come in until the trucks roll out in the morning and ALL of the work has to be done. It doesn't matter if its 10k cases or 35k cases, 12 hrs is all we have. Add in the extra volume in our busy season and every single day can be daunting. If the work doesn't get done I can "force" our team to come in on their days off, it's in their contracts. All of this is laid out before a job is offered to someone. I have no sympathy, we all choose where we work and what we do with our time. Don't like it? Find a new job.
Not the same thing. Your warehouse workers get paid overtime for working more than a 40 hour week (I was a warehouse manager, too, and ran the budget so I always knew how much and how many could work overtime per fiscal quarter). In the game industry, everyone except QA is paid salary and do not get paid overtime for time worked over 40 hours per week. Jobs in the game industry are not "dream jobs." Ignorant college students, most of the slobbering masses who play the games, and entitled business owners all seem to think working in the game industry is a dream and people in it should be thankful and shut up. Most veterans in the game industry end up leaving because the truly thankless jobs and overwork kills any passion for the industry, unless they were C-Level or got all the credit for a game despite 100's of other working on it.
Once again, that is their choice. Nobody is holding a gun to to their heads and forcing them to go into game development. Personal responsibility has to play into this, If you don't want to work in a high stress industry that's known for tight budgets and tight deadlines then do something else.
Well, I think we know where you stand on labor unions.
Honestly, excessive crunch in game development just seems so highly unnecessary to me. If a game ships in fiscal Q2 2020 after 6 months of crunch saps the morale from your studios or in fiscal Q2 2021 under normal work conditions, the consumers simply will not care, and if the publishers were more accurate with their financial projections, investors shouldn't either. Unfortunately, box sales just aren't enough these days and games get crunched onto the market as early as possible so the microtransaction and DLC revenue can start pouring in to keep the lights on through the next cycle.
I agree with some of the views expressed by Wizardry, BruceYee, Mendel, & Xiaoki.
MMORPG I think you guys have to step back & see how this looks. Especially for someone who occassionally comes to this site.
Imagine the people who don't even post here, posters are only a small percentage, and may have lurked longer than any poster here or someone new for that matter.
It just creates the look of distrust.
"As far as how we will be preventing this in the future, we've implemented more editorial oversight internally here at MMORPG"
Tim pays his bills for the past two years using money from a loan along with his 20 hr a week part time gig.
He does work more than a full time job developing SoL, just not getting paid until after the job is done.
Money collected from pledges (and presumably his investor) has always gone to paying the part time contract staff members, Tim and his 3 partners don't take any salary from either.
What does he do for them if not a developer? Well PR and chief fundraiser for sure, probably handles some or all of the financials as well.
I've worked full time including lots of OT for more than 20 years delivering software with very little as a "developer. Plenty of other jobs such as project management, QA, writing requirements, architecture and design and general management. My guess he does some or much of the above.
So, now that I've cleared up the "contradictions" you both are happy, yes?
Technically, there are 8 partners in Stormhaven Studios (not three), none of whom receive a salary
Pre-order funds and investor funds pay for our contractors + business expenses (legal/accounting/licensing/assets/etc.).
I've been paying my own bills the entire time we've worked on this project; up until the end of 2017 my wife and I still ran our travel brand providing photography, videography, marketing, and writing services around the world, as well as working as a public speaker on marketing and consulting from time to time.
Then, I went onto a personal loan for two years, and last year started helping a couple of friends of mine in the travel space with their startup (they got some major funding at the end of last year and this year I'm working with them on a more regular, part-time basis with an attached salary). About 15 - 20 hours a week, with some extra hours here and there such as for last year when we went to Paris for two weeks to cover videography/photography for their writing/photography workshop with some Nat Geo folks
All of this is well-documented as well, just that a lot of folks here seem to be unable to fact-find or do any sort of due diligence (forum posters FTW!).
On top of being the CEO of the game studio and creative director/director of marketing for the game, I'm the author of the book series, the lead writer of the tabletop game as well as the lead designer and editor, the lead writer/editor on the game, the only VFX person on the team (a recent position I took on at the end of 2019), I handle all the legal side of things, I'm the lead project manager, a website developer, forum moderator, Discord moderator, videographer, social media manager, content creator, publicist, community manager, QA tester, and probably another 15-20 roles that I'm forgetting in the moment.
I also used to handle all the bookkeeping and accounting, but that got handed off to John last year (woo hoo for less work on my end!)
Mostly my wife and I are retired from the travel space since we wrapped up our last contract at the end of 2017 with Failte Ireland (the national tourism board for Ireland) when we were in-country on a speaking engagement + press tour + road trip of the Wild Atlantic Way with the drone and all of our camera gear. By that point, we had enough contractors working with the team that I needed to quit my job there and focus 100% of my time on Saga of Lucimia/Stormhaven Studios.
Pretty much every one of our 8 partners handles 3-5 roles, at minimum. Our contractors handle one role per person. The workload is roughly 90% on the shoulders of our partners, with contractors only picking up the things we can't handle on our own.
Areas we're actively hiring for = graphics programmer (full-time), art lead (full-time), FX artist (full-time), and senior programmer (full-time).
So, now that I've cleared up the "contradictions" .... you are happy?
No. I have more questions! I demand answers! I demand to interrogate Tim about every dollar he has ever been paid or spent. Why do I make this demand? Because I am angry! I am an ANGERBALL! GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR. *Must waterboard Tim for more info.*
Did I donate to Tim's company? No! Have I lost anything? No! Will I play his game? No! So why do I give a shit? Because I am angry! I am an ANGERBALL! *Must find someone to take it out on. *
Win-win for our backers, win-win for our investors, win-win for our well-compensated and never-had-to-work-a-single-hour-of-overtime contractors (because we plan our shit out methodically and we unpaid partners in Stormhaven Studios take no salary while shouldering the bulk of the workload).
That's right. I've still not drawn a dime of salary on the project. Maybe you missed that fact, even though it's been mentioned hundreds of times here and elsewhere.
I actually *still* work a part-time job to pay the bills for my wife and I (though I lived on a personal loan for 2018 and 2019), which I've mentioned in many other places.
So ON TOP of working 80+ hour work weeks on the Saga of Lucimia, I also work a good 20-ish hours a week on that other project
Ain't nobody but ME paying for my air-conditioned office.
Facts. They're not only fun, they're your friend!
Fact >>> "I make a living from game development" these are your own words. Now you're saying you don't?
Where does the money you collect from pledges go if not into your own company and your game? How do your contractors get paid? Do you pay them with your salary from your 20 hour a week job or from the loan you got?
Fact >>> "I work 12-16 hours a day on SoL" again your own words. On top of that you go to work at your other job? If you're not a developer what exactly do you do for 12-16 hours a day 5 days a week? 80-100+ hour work week each week total for two jobs must be pretty hard to have time left over to hang out on forums and answer questions.
That youtube video was a video of you playing the game like every other video of the game. I'm talking about a PLAYABLE demo like Crowfall not some controlled play test.
Also, how many years has this game been in development?
Great post. I’d love to see these apparent contradictions explained as well.
They could very well be a misunderstanding like he says this article is.
I'm here to help.
Tim pays his bills for the past two years using money from a loan along with his 20 hr a week part time gig.
He does work more than a full time job developing SoL, just not getting paid until after the job is done.
Money collected from pledges (and presumably his investor) has always gone to paying the part time contract staff members, Tim and his 3 partners don't take any salary from either.
What does he do for them if not a developer? Well PR and chief fundraiser for sure, probably handles some or all of the financials as well.
I've worked full time including lots of OT for more than 20 years delivering software with very little as a "developer. Plenty of other jobs such as project management, QA, writing requirements, architecture and design and general management. My guess he does some or much of the above.
So, now that I've cleared up the "contradictions" you both are happy, yes?
You are doing Pr for the Pr guy? Those weren't answers that was deflection and partially repeating what was already said. Why couldn't he answer himself but was able to give my comment a LoL? Maybe because contradicting false statements by an individual for the purpose of earning money is considered fraud?
Really disappointed in you Kyle that you could be bought off Mr. I've only spent $200 on games in the past 10 years yet now you approve of a scheme designed to fleece gullible people in pledging "phases" while providing nothing except words in return. What would the you from 10 years ago think carrying water like that.
Also, if he handles all or some of the financials then what does the CFO listed on LinkedIn do??? This is stinkier than blue cheese on a hot summer day. Both the words and math do not add up to prove that this entire project is anything more than a way for a few individuals to enrich themselves long term.
Go sell fishing lures on the beach in Key West and live on your own schedule.
How condescending of you. I love how you make it sound so puerile. As if selling fishing lures in your own business in a sub-tropical locale is something to be scoffed at and shunned.
Go sell fishing lures on the beach in Key West and live on your own schedule.
How condescending of you. I love how you make it sound so puerile. As if selling fishing lures in your own business in a sub-tropical locale is something to be scoffed at and shunned.
Win-win for our backers, win-win for our investors, win-win for our well-compensated and never-had-to-work-a-single-hour-of-overtime contractors (because we plan our shit out methodically and we unpaid partners in Stormhaven Studios take no salary while shouldering the bulk of the workload).
That's right. I've still not drawn a dime of salary on the project. Maybe you missed that fact, even though it's been mentioned hundreds of times here and elsewhere.
I actually *still* work a part-time job to pay the bills for my wife and I (though I lived on a personal loan for 2018 and 2019), which I've mentioned in many other places.
So ON TOP of working 80+ hour work weeks on the Saga of Lucimia, I also work a good 20-ish hours a week on that other project
Ain't nobody but ME paying for my air-conditioned office.
Facts. They're not only fun, they're your friend!
Fact >>> "I make a living from game development" these are your own words. Now you're saying you don't?
Where does the money you collect from pledges go if not into your own company and your game? How do your contractors get paid? Do you pay them with your salary from your 20 hour a week job or from the loan you got?
Fact >>> "I work 12-16 hours a day on SoL" again your own words. On top of that you go to work at your other job? If you're not a developer what exactly do you do for 12-16 hours a day 5 days a week? 80-100+ hour work week each week total for two jobs must be pretty hard to have time left over to hang out on forums and answer questions.
That youtube video was a video of you playing the game like every other video of the game. I'm talking about a PLAYABLE demo like Crowfall not some controlled play test.
Also, how many years has this game been in development?
Great post. I’d love to see these apparent contradictions explained as well.
They could very well be a misunderstanding like he says this article is.
All I wanted was an answer to why he contradicted HIS OWN WORDS. Then my legit fact based questions go unanswered and yes they are facts because he himself said what I asked about. Being labeled a "douche canoe" by some alt account for asking simple questions means there must be something there if the person cannot explain his own words and needs other people to create alt accounts to try and stop questions from being asked.
Everyone here defending the guy now playing the victim after this site in a article titled OPINION brings up the guy behind the game who apparently lacks some knowledge about something so what's the big deal? They quoted his OWN WORDS, they did not make anything up so how can any reasonable person play the victim when his own words were quoted? He himself said he "has no history developing games" and his history is working with cattle and construction so why so defensive? Maybe because once people know that the captain of the ship doesn't know how to sail everyone will stop giving him free money to fund his "dream"? Protect that at all costs I guess? Even if it means threatening a site he has used as a primary source of advertising to fund his sche...dream for years?
Remember that saying that used to be thrown around here "It's okay because they're not asking for money" well guess what this guy is, as a matter of FACT there's a timer counting down the days, hours, minutes on his site til you can give him free money again for a game that has already been in development for 5 years and does not even have a PLAYABLE working demo. He says the game will be out by q4 2021 but remember all those other crowdfunded games that also had release dates? CU, Crowfall, CoE, AoC, SC.... so how is this game any different?
Just because this guy talks to lonely gamers on gaming sites about game theory and concepts doesn't give him a free pass to not answer real questions. Tim Anderson has been using gaming sites as a advertising tool for years to fund his project and get free money so why shouldn't those sites be able to post their OPINION on THEIR platform? Gaming journalists/writers are still journalists/writers and their job/duty/passion is to ask questions and get to bottom of things. The blatant disrespect shown by some posters here towards the new writers/journalists on this site is appalling to say the least. This article had a big fat all caps OPINION label so what more could anyone want? Total obedience apparently...
I've been saying this guy is nothing but a shyster for years. They basically have a few concept ideas about how their game "might" play and a crappy , slapped together demo (if you can call it that) built with Unity store assets. Their game streams are god awful to watch imo. IB4 "Well it's pre-alpha dummy", yeah I heard this BS before from the other failed Kickstarter MMOs.
MMO fans are so desperate these days for a old school MMO that they will throw money at any piece of crap these days. If Shroud of the Avatar wasn't a wake up call for people I don't know what to say. I mean do you think 5 guys working out of a garage are going to be able to build a fully functioning MMO, when AAA studios with huge teams have trouble?
I'm sorry, but this game is nothing but a huge con. I wish people would wake up and realize this. Stop feeding this guy your money and go spend on games that are actually launched!!!!!!
Comments
Every single boss on the planet will push the limits,if you give an inch they'll go for 2 inches and so on,so it is not that simple to say,stay out.
Also the implication seems to be biased,it is as if implying the workers are not already giving the employer something of value and that MORE should be expected.
I live by a rule that sort of follows in life in general,when you ASK something of someone you SHOULD as a mature adult be ready to expect a NO for answer.Way too often i see someone asking a favor and EXPECTS the answer to be yes,that is not asking that is demanding and no worker on the planet wants to follow demands because ti is a TWO way street both sides are offering and giving already.
On the SOLE premise that Tim felt the article was attacking him,then sure fine i accept the retraction as MATURE and legit.However if this was to merely retract because the developer says so that is even yet WORSE editorial standards,in other words very poor judgement and ethics.
However,yeah we are all human,if someone feels attacked,then sure the other party can say i am sorry,there is nothing wrong with that.However i have seen this side of the fence in the past and it has NEVER in all the years i have been reading here,EVER gone the other way.In the past "fanbois"scoffed at a negative review so this site changed their opinion like 2 days later and gave the game a positive review.To me that is bullshit,your opinion should stick,you say something you mean it.If one feels a poor use of words ,again fine,maybe what they said came off wrong but like i said,this has NEVER gone the other way going from positive to negative,makes you wonder.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
When you make a statement that says 4-6 week employees have NO RIGHT to complain,that is definitely treating them like slaves,like they have no rights to ever say no.
This is why we have labor laws because employers can simply not be trusted.Even a good employer on occasion will be a different person and start with demands for whatever reason,a bad day,angry at someone so takes it out on everyone.Labor laws are already VERY weak,you have to prove something and if not an easy prove you'll likely lose unless you hire a real good lawyer and even then is it worth it?
So since Tim asked for a retraction,is he ready to man up and retract his statement that 4-6 week people have no right to complain?This is nearly as bad as racism or saying women have no rights,EVERY single person on this planet should be treated an equal,correct or not?
As well when you ask something of your employees,a NO should be accepted without further insults or saying they have no right to say anything.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
delete just had brain surgery, what exactly is your excuse?
Everyone here defending the guy now playing the victim after this site in a article titled OPINION brings up the guy behind the game who apparently lacks some knowledge about something so what's the big deal? They quoted his OWN WORDS, they did not make anything up so how can any reasonable person play the victim when his own words were quoted? He himself said he "has no history developing games" and his history is working with cattle and construction so why so defensive? Maybe because once people know that the captain of the ship doesn't know how to sail everyone will stop giving him free money to fund his "dream"? Protect that at all costs I guess? Even if it means threatening a site he has used as a primary source of advertising to fund his sche...dream for years?
Remember that saying that used to be thrown around here "It's okay because they're not asking for money" well guess what this guy is, as a matter of FACT there's a timer counting down the days, hours, minutes on his site til you can give him free money again for a game that has already been in development for 5 years and does not even have a PLAYABLE working demo. He says the game will be out by q4 2021 but remember all those other crowdfunded games that also had release dates? CU, Crowfall, CoE, AoC, SC.... so how is this game any different?
Just because this guy talks to lonely gamers on gaming sites about game theory and concepts doesn't give him a free pass to not answer real questions. Tim Anderson has been using gaming sites as a advertising tool for years to fund his project and get free money so why shouldn't those sites be able to post their OPINION on THEIR platform? Gaming journalists/writers are still journalists/writers and their job/duty/passion is to ask questions and get to bottom of things. The blatant disrespect shown by some posters here towards the new writers/journalists on this site is appalling to say the least. This article had a big fat all caps OPINION label so what more could anyone want? Total obedience apparently...
Not the same thing. Your warehouse workers get paid overtime for working more than a 40 hour week (I was a warehouse manager, too, and ran the budget so I always knew how much and how many could work overtime per fiscal quarter). In the game industry, everyone except QA is paid salary and do not get paid overtime for time worked over 40 hours per week. Jobs in the game industry are not "dream jobs." Ignorant college students, most of the slobbering masses who play the games, and entitled business owners all seem to think working in the game industry is a dream and people in it should be thankful and shut up. Most veterans in the game industry end up leaving because the truly thankless jobs and overwork kills any passion for the industry, unless they were C-Level or got all the credit for a game despite 100's of other working on it.
I make spreadsheets at work - I don't want to make them for the games I play.
Well that's YOU. Don't expect everyone else to have that kind of obsession. If your goal in life is to devote every waking hour to your work, good on you! Most people enjoy experiencing other things in life on top of their work. Not everyone is singularly focused on one, life consuming thing, and for you to (seemingly) expect everyone else to be like you and have that same singular focus & obsession, that just speaks volumes of your narcissism and complete lack of empathy for different people and personalities.
I make spreadsheets at work - I don't want to make them for the games I play.
Tim pays his bills for the past two years using money from a loan along with his 20 hr a week part time gig.
He does work more than a full time job developing SoL, just not getting paid until after the job is done.
Money collected from pledges (and presumably his investor) has always gone to paying the part time contract staff members, Tim and his 3 partners don't take any salary from either.
What does he do for them if not a developer? Well PR and chief fundraiser for sure, probably handles some or all of the financials as well.
I've worked full time including lots of OT for more than 20 years delivering software with very little as a "developer. Plenty of other jobs such as project management, QA, writing requirements, architecture and design and general management. My guess he does some or much of the above.
So, now that I've cleared up the "contradictions" you both are happy, yes?
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Did I donate to Tim's company? No! Have I lost anything? No! Will I play his game? No! So why do I give a shit? Because I am angry! I am an ANGERBALL! *Must find someone to take it out on. *
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
Honestly, excessive crunch in game development just seems so highly unnecessary to me. If a game ships in fiscal Q2 2020 after 6 months of crunch saps the morale from your studios or in fiscal Q2 2021 under normal work conditions, the consumers simply will not care, and if the publishers were more accurate with their financial projections, investors shouldn't either. Unfortunately, box sales just aren't enough these days and games get crunched onto the market as early as possible so the microtransaction and DLC revenue can start pouring in to keep the lights on through the next cycle.
AC2 Player RIP Final Death Jan 31st 2017
Refugee of Auberean
Refugee of Dereth
Pre-order funds and investor funds pay for our contractors + business expenses (legal/accounting/licensing/assets/etc.).
I've been paying my own bills the entire time we've worked on this project; up until the end of 2017 my wife and I still ran our travel brand providing photography, videography, marketing, and writing services around the world, as well as working as a public speaker on marketing and consulting from time to time.
Then, I went onto a personal loan for two years, and last year started helping a couple of friends of mine in the travel space with their startup (they got some major funding at the end of last year and this year I'm working with them on a more regular, part-time basis with an attached salary). About 15 - 20 hours a week, with some extra hours here and there such as for last year when we went to Paris for two weeks to cover videography/photography for their writing/photography workshop with some Nat Geo folks
All of this is well-documented as well, just that a lot of folks here seem to be unable to fact-find or do any sort of due diligence (forum posters FTW!).
On top of being the CEO of the game studio and creative director/director of marketing for the game, I'm the author of the book series, the lead writer of the tabletop game as well as the lead designer and editor, the lead writer/editor on the game, the only VFX person on the team (a recent position I took on at the end of 2019), I handle all the legal side of things, I'm the lead project manager, a website developer, forum moderator, Discord moderator, videographer, social media manager, content creator, publicist, community manager, QA tester, and probably another 15-20 roles that I'm forgetting in the moment.
I also used to handle all the bookkeeping and accounting, but that got handed off to John last year (woo hoo for less work on my end!)
Mostly my wife and I are retired from the travel space since we wrapped up our last contract at the end of 2017 with Failte Ireland (the national tourism board for Ireland) when we were in-country on a speaking engagement + press tour + road trip of the Wild Atlantic Way with the drone and all of our camera gear. By that point, we had enough contractors working with the team that I needed to quit my job there and focus 100% of my time on Saga of Lucimia/Stormhaven Studios.
Pretty much every one of our 8 partners handles 3-5 roles, at minimum. Our contractors handle one role per person. The workload is roughly 90% on the shoulders of our partners, with contractors only picking up the things we can't handle on our own.
Areas we're actively hiring for = graphics programmer (full-time), art lead (full-time), FX artist (full-time), and senior programmer (full-time).
http://stormhavenstudios.com/careers
Really disappointed in you Kyle that you could be bought off Mr. I've only spent $200 on games in the past 10 years yet now you approve of a scheme designed to fleece gullible people in pledging "phases" while providing nothing except words in return. What would the you from 10 years ago think carrying water like that.
Also, if he handles all or some of the financials then what does the CFO listed on LinkedIn do??? This is stinkier than blue cheese on a hot summer day. Both the words and math do not add up to prove that this entire project is anything more than a way for a few individuals to enrich themselves long term.
How condescending of you. I love how you make it sound so puerile. As if selling fishing lures in your own business in a sub-tropical locale is something to be scoffed at and shunned.
MMO fans are so desperate these days for a old school MMO that they will throw money at any piece of crap these days. If Shroud of the Avatar wasn't a wake up call for people I don't know what to say. I mean do you think 5 guys working out of a garage are going to be able to build a fully functioning MMO, when AAA studios with huge teams have trouble?
I'm sorry, but this game is nothing but a huge con. I wish people would wake up and realize this. Stop feeding this guy your money and go spend on games that are actually launched!!!!!!
Then it's about killing oneself before the horde finds your home addr and relentlessly stalks your cat.
Game making is super fun. The outrage culture that follows it literally sucks the life out of devs.