After the fiasco of CU and Elyria and the laughable "progress" of crowfall with their 10+ million budget( more than enough to deliver a good mmorpg) i will never support a single game through kickstarter or crowdfunding. It appears the whole point of Kickstarter games is zero risk for a luxury life(if its successful) for the developers . Who instead of investing money from their wallet or take a loan from the banks, they choose the safe path of brainwashing people with false promises. And if their projects are scam its ok for them they will have to face few refund cases and thats it.Most people will have lost interest or forgot about their games after so many years of fake excuses...Its a win win situation
I think there still is an appetite for a Kickstarter MMO that can give us something better funded gaming house projects do not. But the reality is that you must accept the graphics and polish will not be as good because it is built on a lesser budget. Also if we have one more fail to launch that appetite will disappear for the foreseeable future.
I never supported a KS. Figured other people would and i like others to be the guinea pig in things like that.
also, imhypothetically speaking, if i back ten games with $20 each, how many of them become successful and im not the type of person that needs to be the first through the door.
If the game is fun, i play it and pay for it, if not, i dont. Easy.
Catch me streaming at twitch.tv/cryomatrix You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations.
I haven't supported many and have always accepted that it's an investment and as such you may bot get a return on it, however I am more and more cynacil about it and would be very cautious to do it again.
Will I ever trust anyone again because someone lied?
Of course I will, if they come off as trustworthy. As long as a sizable portion of the people I encounter or interact with speak the truth, as they see it, I will be able to trust.
I don't think life would be much fun if every obstacle enforced a permanent retreat.
That said, in this particular case - it does smell like planned deceit, which isn't great.
But there's a difference between failure and deceit.
Lots of projects have failed against the best laid plans. That's part and parcel of the concept of crowd-funding.
Does anyone really believe the publisher-driven blueprint MMOs can satisfy all our needs?
I backed Fractured and Project Gorgon. Both had pretty realistic goals and people with enough of a background that I thought their attempt might succeed.
I'm reluctant to even consider supporting early access, let alone kickstarter. I've learned my lesson. I backed Bard's Tale IV and didn't like the final product. I backed Shroud of the Avatar and hated the final product. I backed Star Citizen and asked for and received a refund. The last games I have backed are Ashes of Creation and Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen and while I remain hopeful about them, they will be the last kickstarter in which I will participate.
Aside from Pantheon, I never paid more than the cost of a digital collector's edition. I did pay several hundred dollars for Pantheon, because I wanted to support a slower paced, open world MMORPG and I hope I don't regret it, but it will never happen again.
The problem are the laws protecting them without giving us the real sold product they showed us... i can understand because they need money to develop the game and games arent cheap but if you never finish your game or you change it but law is defending them against that, i see the real problem there...
Like others, for me, CoE/JW, and all that Drama, has had zero impact on if I will back a kickstarter.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
I backed CoE (the first kickstarter I ever backed) and am currently an admin in the Class Action Discord. Every day I am helping people try to get their money back. I am assisting people with filing complaints with the various consumer protection outlets like filing with the Washington Attorney General.
I can say after this, I will NEVER back any crowdfunded game ever. Personally I have lost about a thousand dollars on this scam. It didn't happen all at once. It started with a simple town purchase for me and my gaming buddies to exist in. Then over time I bought little things here and there, and upgraded my account to a county. Paying it off on layaway.
You heard me right... layaway.
This was back when we had dates like an 18 month estimated delivery date and the graphics still looked good in the concept videos.
I got people involved, promoted the game, hell even made content on youtube for it. I was excited for this dream game to come out.
Then the alarm bells started going off. They changed engines, the various "background" programs that would help them "iterate faster" like ElyriaMud, VoxElyria, PreElyria, Elyrian Adventure, all seemed to go up in smoke. I just wanted Chronicles of Elyria not all those other things. I mean who in the year 2020 wants to play on a mudd for a game thats supposed to have Unreal level graphics?
I stopped investing. I pulled out of the community, and I no longer made content.
I've even posted a few times in the forums here about how upset I was at development. I begged on the forums on their website for transparency and for them to hire a PR person or Marketing director.
Now I don't care so much if I get my $1000 dollars back. I just want some kind of accountability to happen for crowdfunded games. I want there to be oversight and laws that protect those who put money into crowdfunding games.
We need development of games to be innovative and to push the MMO genre forward, because it has stagnated for a long time, I just don't want that to end up being at the expense of the fans where the only people benefiting are con artists like Jeromy Walsh.
I would. It's all about the mindset going in, it's like an investment. It could work out well or the company folds and you lose your money. I will never put in more than whatever (reasonable) amount would entitle me to a copy on the condition that they actually get that far.
Project Gorgon is a an example of a game that I got many hours out of and well worth whatever I put in. It's not the best game (far from it honestly) but the misadventures of being turned into a cow, fudging the coordinates to a teleport and being sent to the top of a ridiculously tall tree in a mid-level region instead of the low level starter region and drinking from a cauldron only to suffer some of the strangest effects ever made it more fun than you would think.
That said, I get a little irritated with things like selling land in a world that can't be accessed. It's a bit like someone selling me a bridge on the other side of the world.
The part of this I really don't get is why support KS MMOs at all. Do you really think you're contributing to creating a better mmorpg landscape?
I'm fine playing what exists and waiting for someone to develop something better whenever they do.
I think it takes an extra amount of discontent (desperation?) with the current offerings that I just don't share to want to fund what are good sounding ideas on paper that don't turn out to be all that great in reality or morph into something totally different along the way more often than not.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
The part of this I really don't get is why support KS MMOs at all. Do you really think you're contributing to creating a better mmorpg landscape?
I'm fine playing what exists and waiting for someone to develop something better whenever they do.
I think it takes an extra amount of discontent (desperation?) with the current offerings that I just don't share to want to fund what are good sounding ideas on paper that don't turn out to be all that great in reality or morph into something totally different along the way more often than not.
It's not rocket science.
People who pledge for crowd-funded games are actively contributing to those games, assuming they're not scams. You don't have to do much research to establish the genuine effort to scam ratio, but here's a hint: most projects aren't scams.
There are no guarentees, though - but a sensible person realizes that.
The publisher model tends to focus on pleasing the investors, which tends to focus on what is marketable and not necessarily what gamers actually want.
Obviously, not everyone wants to take a risk and not everyone wants to contribute.
That's fair enough and I understand. Why you don't understand people who do, though, I can't say.
The part of this I really don't get is why support KS MMOs at all. Do you really think you're contributing to creating a better mmorpg landscape?
I'm fine playing what exists and waiting for someone to develop something better whenever they do.
I think it takes an extra amount of discontent (desperation?) with the current offerings that I just don't share to want to fund what are good sounding ideas on paper that don't turn out to be all that great in reality or morph into something totally different along the way more often than not.
It's not rocket science.
People who pledge for crowd-funded games are actively contributing to those games, assuming they're not scams. You don't have to do much research to establish the genuine effort to scam ratio, but here's a hint: most projects aren't scams.
There are no guarentees, though - but a sensible person realizes that.
The publisher model tends to focus on pleasing the investors, which tends to focus on what is marketable and not necessarily what gamers actually want.
Obviously, not everyone wants to take a risk and not everyone wants to contribute.
That's fair enough and I understand. Why you don't understand people who do, though, I can't say.
It's also not rocket science that I'm not talking about the risk nor the scam / honest effort ration.
I'm talking simply about why some people seem to think that they are influencing the shape of future MMOs when they are in fact doing nothing of the sort.
I can be interested in new ideas about new MMOs but I just simply file those ideas away as something that may or may not materialize in 7 years or thereabouts.
I have in fact been very interested in Camelot Unchained for years but I have felt zero need to contribute anything. When and if it releases and if it resembles what I'm hoping it will, I will gladly pay the full price for it at that time.
I neither want to pretend co-develop nor do I want to fret over every development twist and turn along the way and I honestly have no idea why others find that attractive.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
The part of this I really don't get is why support KS MMOs at all. Do you really think you're contributing to creating a better mmorpg landscape?
I'm fine playing what exists and waiting for someone to develop something better whenever they do.
I think it takes an extra amount of discontent (desperation?) with the current offerings that I just don't share to want to fund what are good sounding ideas on paper that don't turn out to be all that great in reality or morph into something totally different along the way more often than not.
It's not rocket science.
People who pledge for crowd-funded games are actively contributing to those games, assuming they're not scams. You don't have to do much research to establish the genuine effort to scam ratio, but here's a hint: most projects aren't scams.
There are no guarentees, though - but a sensible person realizes that.
The publisher model tends to focus on pleasing the investors, which tends to focus on what is marketable and not necessarily what gamers actually want.
Obviously, not everyone wants to take a risk and not everyone wants to contribute.
That's fair enough and I understand. Why you don't understand people who do, though, I can't say.
It's also not rocket science that I'm not talking about the risk nor the scam / honest effort ration.
I'm talking simply about why some people seem to think that they are influencing the shape of future MMOs when they are in fact doing nothing of the sort.
I can be interested in new ideas about new MMOs but I just simply file those ideas away as something that may or may not materialize in 7 years or thereabouts.
I have in fact been very interested in Camelot Unchained for years but I have felt zero need to contribute anything. When and if it releases and if it resembles what I'm hoping it will, I will gladly pay the full price for it at that time.
I neither want to pretend co-develop nor do I want to fret over every development twist and turn along the way and I honestly have no idea why others find that attractive.
What?
Are you saying if you pledge for a game that's coming out in the future - you're not influencing the future?
That's 100% irrational, sorry.
No one is talking about co-developing. That's quite a jump from influencing.
The part of this I really don't get is why support KS MMOs at all. Do you really think you're contributing to creating a better mmorpg landscape?
I'm fine playing what exists and waiting for someone to develop something better whenever they do.
I think it takes an extra amount of discontent (desperation?) with the current offerings that I just don't share to want to fund what are good sounding ideas on paper that don't turn out to be all that great in reality or morph into something totally different along the way more often than not.
It's not rocket science.
People who pledge for crowd-funded games are actively contributing to those games, assuming they're not scams. You don't have to do much research to establish the genuine effort to scam ratio, but here's a hint: most projects aren't scams.
There are no guarentees, though - but a sensible person realizes that.
The publisher model tends to focus on pleasing the investors, which tends to focus on what is marketable and not necessarily what gamers actually want.
Obviously, not everyone wants to take a risk and not everyone wants to contribute.
That's fair enough and I understand. Why you don't understand people who do, though, I can't say.
It's also not rocket science that I'm not talking about the risk nor the scam / honest effort ration.
I'm talking simply about why some people seem to think that they are influencing the shape of future MMOs when they are in fact doing nothing of the sort.
I can be interested in new ideas about new MMOs but I just simply file those ideas away as something that may or may not materialize in 7 years or thereabouts.
I have in fact been very interested in Camelot Unchained for years but I have felt zero need to contribute anything. When and if it releases and if it resembles what I'm hoping it will, I will gladly pay the full price for it at that time.
I neither want to pretend co-develop nor do I want to fret over every development twist and turn along the way and I honestly have no idea why others find that attractive.
What?
Are you saying if you pledge for a game that's coming out in the future - you're not influencing the future?
That's 100% irrational, sorry.
No one is talking about co-developing. That's quite a jump from influencing.
No you're not. The people developing the game are and they could get funding the usual way if the idea is worth funding.
You're just buying into their idea believing that this is something that should get made and it couldn't possibly be made without your contribution.
It's their dream and their influence. You're just a wallet.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
The part of this I really don't get is why support KS MMOs at all. Do you really think you're contributing to creating a better mmorpg landscape?
I'm fine playing what exists and waiting for someone to develop something better whenever they do.
I think it takes an extra amount of discontent (desperation?) with the current offerings that I just don't share to want to fund what are good sounding ideas on paper that don't turn out to be all that great in reality or morph into something totally different along the way more often than not.
It's not rocket science.
People who pledge for crowd-funded games are actively contributing to those games, assuming they're not scams. You don't have to do much research to establish the genuine effort to scam ratio, but here's a hint: most projects aren't scams.
There are no guarentees, though - but a sensible person realizes that.
The publisher model tends to focus on pleasing the investors, which tends to focus on what is marketable and not necessarily what gamers actually want.
Obviously, not everyone wants to take a risk and not everyone wants to contribute.
That's fair enough and I understand. Why you don't understand people who do, though, I can't say.
It's also not rocket science that I'm not talking about the risk nor the scam / honest effort ration.
I'm talking simply about why some people seem to think that they are influencing the shape of future MMOs when they are in fact doing nothing of the sort.
I can be interested in new ideas about new MMOs but I just simply file those ideas away as something that may or may not materialize in 7 years or thereabouts.
I have in fact been very interested in Camelot Unchained for years but I have felt zero need to contribute anything. When and if it releases and if it resembles what I'm hoping it will, I will gladly pay the full price for it at that time.
I neither want to pretend co-develop nor do I want to fret over every development twist and turn along the way and I honestly have no idea why others find that attractive.
What?
Are you saying if you pledge for a game that's coming out in the future - you're not influencing the future?
That's 100% irrational, sorry.
No one is talking about co-developing. That's quite a jump from influencing.
No you're not. The people developing the game are and they could get funding the usual way if the idea is worth funding.
You're just buying into their idea believing that this is something that should get made and it couldn't possibly be made without your contribution.
It's their dream and their influence. You're just a wallet.
You're confused.
"Worth funding" for a publisher and "worth funding" for the core audience are not necessarily the same thing.
That's the reason crowd-funding has become a thing - and why we've seen so many great games come out of it.
What you're saying is that these games would be funded if no one actually funded them.
The part of this I really don't get is why support KS MMOs at all. Do you really think you're contributing to creating a better mmorpg landscape?
I'm fine playing what exists and waiting for someone to develop something better whenever they do.
I think it takes an extra amount of discontent (desperation?) with the current offerings that I just don't share to want to fund what are good sounding ideas on paper that don't turn out to be all that great in reality or morph into something totally different along the way more often than not.
It's not rocket science.
People who pledge for crowd-funded games are actively contributing to those games, assuming they're not scams. You don't have to do much research to establish the genuine effort to scam ratio, but here's a hint: most projects aren't scams.
There are no guarentees, though - but a sensible person realizes that.
The publisher model tends to focus on pleasing the investors, which tends to focus on what is marketable and not necessarily what gamers actually want.
Obviously, not everyone wants to take a risk and not everyone wants to contribute.
That's fair enough and I understand. Why you don't understand people who do, though, I can't say.
It's also not rocket science that I'm not talking about the risk nor the scam / honest effort ration.
I'm talking simply about why some people seem to think that they are influencing the shape of future MMOs when they are in fact doing nothing of the sort.
I can be interested in new ideas about new MMOs but I just simply file those ideas away as something that may or may not materialize in 7 years or thereabouts.
I have in fact been very interested in Camelot Unchained for years but I have felt zero need to contribute anything. When and if it releases and if it resembles what I'm hoping it will, I will gladly pay the full price for it at that time.
I neither want to pretend co-develop nor do I want to fret over every development twist and turn along the way and I honestly have no idea why others find that attractive.
What?
Are you saying if you pledge for a game that's coming out in the future - you're not influencing the future?
That's 100% irrational, sorry.
No one is talking about co-developing. That's quite a jump from influencing.
No you're not. The people developing the game are and they could get funding the usual way if the idea is worth funding.
You're just buying into their idea believing that this is something that should get made and it couldn't possibly be made without your contribution.
It's their dream and their influence. You're just a wallet.
It does help developers know that there may still be a market for certain play styles dependent on the level of community support. Hence the reason why I focused for the most part on tab targeting and or slower paced games.
The part of this I really don't get is why support KS MMOs at all. Do you really think you're contributing to creating a better mmorpg landscape?
I'm fine playing what exists and waiting for someone to develop something better whenever they do.
I think it takes an extra amount of discontent (desperation?) with the current offerings that I just don't share to want to fund what are good sounding ideas on paper that don't turn out to be all that great in reality or morph into something totally different along the way more often than not.
It's not rocket science.
People who pledge for crowd-funded games are actively contributing to those games, assuming they're not scams. You don't have to do much research to establish the genuine effort to scam ratio, but here's a hint: most projects aren't scams.
There are no guarentees, though - but a sensible person realizes that.
The publisher model tends to focus on pleasing the investors, which tends to focus on what is marketable and not necessarily what gamers actually want.
Obviously, not everyone wants to take a risk and not everyone wants to contribute.
That's fair enough and I understand. Why you don't understand people who do, though, I can't say.
It's also not rocket science that I'm not talking about the risk nor the scam / honest effort ration.
I'm talking simply about why some people seem to think that they are influencing the shape of future MMOs when they are in fact doing nothing of the sort.
I can be interested in new ideas about new MMOs but I just simply file those ideas away as something that may or may not materialize in 7 years or thereabouts.
I have in fact been very interested in Camelot Unchained for years but I have felt zero need to contribute anything. When and if it releases and if it resembles what I'm hoping it will, I will gladly pay the full price for it at that time.
I neither want to pretend co-develop nor do I want to fret over every development twist and turn along the way and I honestly have no idea why others find that attractive.
What?
Are you saying if you pledge for a game that's coming out in the future - you're not influencing the future?
That's 100% irrational, sorry.
No one is talking about co-developing. That's quite a jump from influencing.
No you're not. The people developing the game are and they could get funding the usual way if the idea is worth funding.
You're just buying into their idea believing that this is something that should get made and it couldn't possibly be made without your contribution.
It's their dream and their influence. You're just a wallet.
It does help developers know that there may still be a market for certain play styles dependent on the level of community support. Hence the reason why I focused for the most part on tab targeting and or slower paced games.
I get that and it has been nice to see a sort of renaissance of turn-based cRPG games lately. But the thing that really lets developers know what we want is by having massive numbers buy the released version as was the case with D:OS 1 and 2, Pillars, Wasteland, etc.
KS support might give developers a hint that some want the type of thing they're making but it's post release sales that really cement the trends.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Comments
also, imhypothetically speaking, if i back ten games with $20 each, how many of them become successful and im not the type of person that needs to be the first through the door.
If the game is fun, i play it and pay for it, if not, i dont. Easy.
You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations.
I haven't supported many and have always accepted that it's an investment and as such you may bot get a return on it, however I am more and more cynacil about it and would be very cautious to do it again.
Of course I will, if they come off as trustworthy. As long as a sizable portion of the people I encounter or interact with speak the truth, as they see it, I will be able to trust.
I don't think life would be much fun if every obstacle enforced a permanent retreat.
That said, in this particular case - it does smell like planned deceit, which isn't great.
But there's a difference between failure and deceit.
Lots of projects have failed against the best laid plans. That's part and parcel of the concept of crowd-funding.
Does anyone really believe the publisher-driven blueprint MMOs can satisfy all our needs?
Because I don't think they can.
I would back another if it passed those criteria.
I can say after this, I will NEVER back any crowdfunded game ever. Personally I have lost about a thousand dollars on this scam. It didn't happen all at once. It started with a simple town purchase for me and my gaming buddies to exist in. Then over time I bought little things here and there, and upgraded my account to a county. Paying it off on layaway.
You heard me right... layaway.
This was back when we had dates like an 18 month estimated delivery date and the graphics still looked good in the concept videos.
I got people involved, promoted the game, hell even made content on youtube for it. I was excited for this dream game to come out.
Then the alarm bells started going off. They changed engines, the various "background" programs that would help them "iterate faster" like ElyriaMud, VoxElyria, PreElyria, Elyrian Adventure, all seemed to go up in smoke. I just wanted Chronicles of Elyria not all those other things. I mean who in the year 2020 wants to play on a mudd for a game thats supposed to have Unreal level graphics?
I stopped investing. I pulled out of the community, and I no longer made content.
I've even posted a few times in the forums here about how upset I was at development. I begged on the forums on their website for transparency and for them to hire a PR person or Marketing director.
Now I don't care so much if I get my $1000 dollars back. I just want some kind of accountability to happen for crowdfunded games. I want there to be oversight and laws that protect those who put money into crowdfunding games.
We need development of games to be innovative and to push the MMO genre forward, because it has stagnated for a long time, I just don't want that to end up being at the expense of the fans where the only people benefiting are con artists like Jeromy Walsh.
Project Gorgon is a an example of a game that I got many hours out of and well worth whatever I put in. It's not the best game (far from it honestly) but the misadventures of being turned into a cow, fudging the coordinates to a teleport and being sent to the top of a ridiculously tall tree in a mid-level region instead of the low level starter region and drinking from a cauldron only to suffer some of the strangest effects ever made it more fun than you would think.
That said, I get a little irritated with things like selling land in a world that can't be accessed. It's a bit like someone selling me a bridge on the other side of the world.
I'm fine playing what exists and waiting for someone to develop something better whenever they do.
I think it takes an extra amount of discontent (desperation?) with the current offerings that I just don't share to want to fund what are good sounding ideas on paper that don't turn out to be all that great in reality or morph into something totally different along the way more often than not.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
People who pledge for crowd-funded games are actively contributing to those games, assuming they're not scams. You don't have to do much research to establish the genuine effort to scam ratio, but here's a hint: most projects aren't scams.
There are no guarentees, though - but a sensible person realizes that.
The publisher model tends to focus on pleasing the investors, which tends to focus on what is marketable and not necessarily what gamers actually want.
Obviously, not everyone wants to take a risk and not everyone wants to contribute.
That's fair enough and I understand. Why you don't understand people who do, though, I can't say.
I'm talking simply about why some people seem to think that they are influencing the shape of future MMOs when they are in fact doing nothing of the sort.
I can be interested in new ideas about new MMOs but I just simply file those ideas away as something that may or may not materialize in 7 years or thereabouts.
I have in fact been very interested in Camelot Unchained for years but I have felt zero need to contribute anything. When and if it releases and if it resembles what I'm hoping it will, I will gladly pay the full price for it at that time.
I neither want to pretend co-develop nor do I want to fret over every development twist and turn along the way and I honestly have no idea why others find that attractive.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Are you saying if you pledge for a game that's coming out in the future - you're not influencing the future?
That's 100% irrational, sorry.
No one is talking about co-developing. That's quite a jump from influencing.
You're just buying into their idea believing that this is something that should get made and it couldn't possibly be made without your contribution.
It's their dream and their influence. You're just a wallet.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
"Worth funding" for a publisher and "worth funding" for the core audience are not necessarily the same thing.
That's the reason crowd-funding has become a thing - and why we've seen so many great games come out of it.
What you're saying is that these games would be funded if no one actually funded them.
That's a pretty strange opinion, but whatever
KS support might give developers a hint that some want the type of thing they're making but it's post release sales that really cement the trends.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED