In general I have usually liked having more stats as it gave me more flexibility in character development...Often in games that had many attributes/stats/abilities I would create multiple characters and play each one differently.
In a game like say Star Citizen, if being slightly off topic, I would really want a way to control the spaceship you are flying, AS IF, you are actually in control. The more the better!
If not really in control of things (anything, in any game), that just isn't very interesting imo.
A wholly different thing, is random things, which imo is totally ok, but again, not ok if 'chaos' is the modus operandi of a game (like Eve Online) when pitting players against themselves just for the sake of it and without refinemend of the gameplay (especially the jumpgates).
I like having lots of stats, but ofc the assumption of mine here is ofc that the game is any good.
I want my character stats to have character stats.
Your strength lost a will safe and ran away in fear, but your wisdom was agile enough to compensate by learning a new spell.
LOL.. OMG.. I snored out my soda reading that.. I'm dying! LOL!
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
My feeling is that everything that is in the game, needs to have a reason for being in the game.
Case in point, every stat should have a viable and important reason to be in a game.
Case in point, There is no reason to put in something like Armor Class if by level 3 it becomes vastly worthless, which is what happened with DDO, as the levels went up AC/Armor became more and more irrelevant to the point that by around 15th, unless you full meta max stat AC/Armor, you might as well be wearing cloth, so, they revised AC/Armor to keep it more relevant as the levels went up.
This is how a game should work, stats need to have a reason and a value to the gameplay, otherwise, there is no real reason to have them.
Case in point, in GW2, character stats don't exist, because regardless if you are a Norn or an Asura, everyone has the same character stats, in that situation if the stat was 0 or 100, it makes no difference so there is no need for players to even bother themselves with them, might as well call them 0 and go on with your life.
Just like everything else in a game should have a reason to be there.
Everything in the game should have a purpose. a Great example of this is mounts in GW2, they were not originally intended to be in the game, but when they did finally put them in, they gave them a reason to be there, mainly platforming. But the reason was there, as opposed to just a Huge Block of Graphics that gave you an increased run speed, like other games, and in GW2, with Way Points, the advantage of a speed mount is just not there.
Equally so, Mounts in DDO are like a massive WTF. I mean you know they put them in just to put them in, because that is what players wanted and would spend money on.
Same with Mini's in most games, just a pointless item to get players to spend money.
I kinda like how Trove handled that, where the Mini gave you a boon or helped you out (IE: picked up loot for you), that gave a purpose to having that little quibbly dude following you around.
Now, I am all for cosmetics, but the cosmetics should be for things that have a purpose, not cosmetics for the sake of cosmetics.
IE: Weapon Skins are Cool! Pointless cosmetic Mini-Pets, not so much.
Allowing everyone to have a pet we can buy cosmetic skins for would be much cooler! Like for example, if I would put the Teq skin on my Rangers Falcon in GW2, that would be epic shizzles to me.
Just my feels on things.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
I think unless the stats matter to everyone it's pointless to have a bunch. If endurance gives stamina bar to melee and magic give mana to mages only it's kind of pointless. You could just have endurance cover both. No need to have a ton of stats if the character only uses 3 or 4.
Stats should make difference in builds. If you want to use a dagger rogue and want speedy dodging character you build up those stats that allow. If you was an assassin type maybe you focus on stealth and strength to bring down a guy in one hit from the shadows.
I think D&D/AD&D got it right with the attributes it used.
Strength
Dexterity
Constitution
Intelligence
Wisdom
Charisma
Some games add Luck, but I don't think I like that. It is possible that Will (as in Willpower) could be added to the list.
will is derived from wisdow
I like a lot of number in char creation knowing how well a char can do makes for better strats in games
on D&D the main stributes give base for several secondary and skills
Well, there are some different definitions for Will.
"will noun
2 : desire, wish: such as a : disposition, inclination where there's a will there's a way b : appetite, passion c : choice, determination
4a : mental powers manifested as wishing, choosing, desiring, or intending b : a disposition to act according to principles or ends c : the collective desire of a group
5 : the power of control over one's own actions or emotions"
Not saying we need Will or Willpower (Passion/Determination) as a stat. Just an idea.
"If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."
"Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."
(Note: If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)
I think D&D/AD&D got it right with the attributes it used.
Strength
Dexterity
Constitution
Intelligence
Wisdom
Charisma
Some games add Luck, but I don't think I like that. It is possible that Will (as in Willpower) could be added to the list.
will is derived from wisdow
I like a lot of number in char creation knowing how well a char can do makes for better strats in games
on D&D the main stributes give base for several secondary and skills
Well, there are some different definitions for Will.
"will noun
2 : desire, wish: such as a : disposition, inclination where there's a will there's a way b : appetite, passion c : choice, determination
4a : mental powers manifested as wishing, choosing, desiring, or intending b : a disposition to act according to principles or ends c : the collective desire of a group
5 : the power of control over one's own actions or emotions"
Not saying we need Will or Willpower (Passion/Determination) as a stat. Just an idea.
He meant there is willpower in dungeons and dragons.
It is your Wis Save + modifiers and is used to resist against spells or effects that, well, affects your will (mind, soul).
Thanks for clarifying. It's been a while since I played P&P D&D. I have started playing DDO a bit lately, but I'm usually already tired when I start playing.
"If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."
"Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."
(Note: If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)
I think D&D/AD&D got it right with the attributes it used.
Strength
Dexterity
Constitution
Intelligence
Wisdom
Charisma
Some games add Luck, but I don't think I like that. It is possible that Will (as in Willpower) could be added to the list.
will is derived from wisdow
I like a lot of number in char creation knowing how well a char can do makes for better strats in games
on D&D the main stributes give base for several secondary and skills
Well, there are some different definitions for Will.
"will noun
2 : desire, wish: such as a : disposition, inclination where there's a will there's a way b : appetite, passion c : choice, determination
4a : mental powers manifested as wishing, choosing, desiring, or intending b : a disposition to act according to principles or ends c : the collective desire of a group
5 : the power of control over one's own actions or emotions"
Not saying we need Will or Willpower (Passion/Determination) as a stat. Just an idea.
He meant there is willpower in dungeons and dragons.
It is your Wis Save + modifiers and is used to resist against spells or effects that, well, affects your will (mind, soul).
Thanks for clarifying. It's been a while since I played P&P D&D. I have started playing DDO a bit lately, but I'm usually already tired when I start playing.
with also have a will save. and its derived from wisdom
the wisdom giving will is something interesting, pretty much its states of the more you know more you can firm your mind, you can resist illussions and lies with enough knowledge.
Over the years I remember how a popular single-player RPG series (Elder Scrolls) constantly reduced its stats down to 3 in Skyrim which was down from Oblivion. This carried over to Elder Scrolls Online the MMO. Correct me if I am wrong on this but some MMOs like Vanilla WoW had more stats/Attributes (whatever that game calls them), and some of them I believe were scaled down or removed.
Is this better with the less stats/attributes or more. The thread talking about Horizontal Progression sparked my interest in this subject again, because I was self debating this in regards to how I feel about GW2's stats vs ESO stats. I believe more stats could make the gear in Horizontal Progression more interesting since more combos of gear stats to be rewarded.
I mentioned this in another thread but "yes."
Last weekend I played a heck of a lot of Morrowind and was fighting a summoned monster (never can remember their names) that kept reducing my strength so I couldn't move.
It created an urgency and it took me several tries to actually win. Which was "refreshing" because many modern games just don't have those negatives let alone "death."
Or at least "death" that can actually happen.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
I think D&D/AD&D got it right with the attributes it used.
Strength
Dexterity
Constitution
Intelligence
Wisdom
Charisma
Some games add Luck, but I don't think I like that. It is possible that Will (as in Willpower) could be added to the list.
will is derived from wisdow
I like a lot of number in char creation knowing how well a char can do makes for better strats in games
on D&D the main stributes give base for several secondary and skills
Well, there are some different definitions for Will.
"will noun
2 : desire, wish: such as a : disposition, inclination where there's a will there's a way b : appetite, passion c : choice, determination
4a : mental powers manifested as wishing, choosing, desiring, or intending b : a disposition to act according to principles or ends c : the collective desire of a group
5 : the power of control over one's own actions or emotions"
Not saying we need Will or Willpower (Passion/Determination) as a stat. Just an idea.
He meant there is willpower in dungeons and dragons.
It is your Wis Save + modifiers and is used to resist against spells or effects that, well, affects your will (mind, soul).
Thanks for clarifying. It's been a while since I played P&P D&D. I have started playing DDO a bit lately, but I'm usually already tired when I start playing.
with also have a will save. and its derived from wisdom
the wisdom giving will is something interesting, pretty much its states of the more you know more you can firm your mind, you can resist illussions and lies with enough knowledge.
I see your point. Though wisdom is probably more about applying knowledge, learning, and experience in a way that will keep me out of trouble and help me make better decisions.
(Note: If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)
I think D&D/AD&D got it right with the attributes it used.
Strength
Dexterity
Constitution
Intelligence
Wisdom
Charisma
Some games add Luck, but I don't think I like that. It is possible that Will (as in Willpower) could be added to the list.
will is derived from wisdow
I like a lot of number in char creation knowing how well a char can do makes for better strats in games
on D&D the main stributes give base for several secondary and skills
Well, there are some different definitions for Will.
"will noun
2 : desire, wish: such as a : disposition, inclination where there's a will there's a way b : appetite, passion c : choice, determination
4a : mental powers manifested as wishing, choosing, desiring, or intending b : a disposition to act according to principles or ends c : the collective desire of a group
5 : the power of control over one's own actions or emotions"
Not saying we need Will or Willpower (Passion/Determination) as a stat. Just an idea.
He meant there is willpower in dungeons and dragons.
It is your Wis Save + modifiers and is used to resist against spells or effects that, well, affects your will (mind, soul).
Thanks for clarifying. It's been a while since I played P&P D&D. I have started playing DDO a bit lately, but I'm usually already tired when I start playing.
with also have a will save. and its derived from wisdom
the wisdom giving will is something interesting, pretty much its states of the more you know more you can firm your mind, you can resist illussions and lies with enough knowledge.
I see your point. Though wisdom is probably more about applying knowledge, learning, and experience in a way that will keep me out of trouble and help me make better decisions.
In dungeons and dragons Wisdom is related to your instincts, your perception of the world, your insight about topics, comments and so on. It is more oriented towards a old and wise character.
Knowledge and learning is the Int att. Mages and Wizards who relly on learning ancient knowledge and memorizing said spells depend on int. It also ties to rolls to remember things - and like I said Wisdom is for rolls related to "interpretation".
I see. Makes sense.
"If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."
"Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."
(Note: If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)
In dungeons and dragons Wisdom is related to your instincts, your perception of the world (like rolls for survival check), your insight about topics (literally insight, to check if someone is not telling the truth), comments and so on. It is more oriented towards a old and wise character - or a wit fella.
Knowledge and learning is the Int att. Mages and Wizards who relly on learning ancient knowledge and memorizing said spells depend on int. It also ties to rolls to remember things - and like I said Wisdom is for rolls related to "interpretation".
I think it is a great separation between "mind" att. Each own is very unique yet very recognizable.
I believe it was explained thus.
Intelligence is directly how smart you are, how much knowledge you can memorise and what you can learn/know.
Wisdom is how well you apply your Intelligence.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
In dungeons and dragons Wisdom is related to your instincts, your perception of the world (like rolls for survival check), your insight about topics (literally insight, to check if someone is not telling the truth), comments and so on. It is more oriented towards a old and wise character - or a wit fella.
Knowledge and learning is the Int att. Mages and Wizards who relly on learning ancient knowledge and memorizing said spells depend on int. It also ties to rolls to remember things - and like I said Wisdom is for rolls related to "interpretation".
I think it is a great separation between "mind" att. Each own is very unique yet very recognizable.
I believe it was explained thus.
Intelligence is directly how smart you are, how much knowledge you can memorise and what you can learn/know.
Wisdom is how well you apply your Intelligence.
Yes, obviously, intelligent people may not be wise while even stupid people might be wise in their own way. Though what is wise or unwise might sometimes be subjective.
Post edited by Ancient_Exile on
"If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."
"Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."
(Note: If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)
Just FYI: Will is not a stat in 5th Ed. D&D. You have a Wis save and skills based off of Wis (which, technically, could be any skill, as long as you can justify it to the DM).
In dungeons and dragons Wisdom is related to your instincts, your perception of the world (like rolls for survival check), your insight about topics (literally insight, to check if someone is not telling the truth), comments and so on. It is more oriented towards a old and wise character - or a wit fella.
Knowledge and learning is the Int att. Mages and Wizards who relly on learning ancient knowledge and memorizing said spells depend on int. It also ties to rolls to remember things - and like I said Wisdom is for rolls related to "interpretation".
I think it is a great separation between "mind" att. Each own is very unique yet very recognizable.
I believe it was explained thus.
Intelligence is directly how smart you are, how much knowledge you can memorise and what you can learn/know.
Wisdom is how well you apply your Intelligence.
Yes, obviously, intelligent may not be wise while even stupid people might be wise in their own way. Though what is wise or unwise might sometimes be subjective.
Mechanic-wise it is great because allow characters from poor background (to justify low INT and low knowledge due lack of proper education) have a lot of impact in many social interactions.
And it fits very well as an example of what people said before:
Att should have a reason to be there. If you can streamline your system, do it. I preffer complex ones, but even GURPS have only 4 stats and is way more complex than Dungeons and Dragons.
There's certainly no reason why MMORPGs can't be more complex. Especially since we don't have to remember all the rules and make all the dice rolls ourselves.
"If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."
"Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."
(Note: If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)
For an excellent example of stat complexity made meaningful in terms of game mechanics, I point to the Dark Souls series. All of those stats had real effects not just in direct combat, but also in what sort of weapons and magic you could use. The system allowed the creation of a wide array of different builds, supporting many different styles of play. I think Eve does a pretty good job of that, too.
Over the years I remember how a popular single-player RPG series (Elder Scrolls) constantly reduced its stats down to 3 in Skyrim which was down from Oblivion. This carried over to Elder Scrolls Online the MMO. Correct me if I am wrong on this but some MMOs like Vanilla WoW had more stats/Attributes (whatever that game calls them), and some of them I believe were scaled down or removed.
Is this better with the less stats/attributes or more. The thread talking about Horizontal Progression sparked my interest in this subject again, because I was self debating this in regards to how I feel about GW2's stats vs ESO stats. I believe more stats could make the gear in Horizontal Progression more interesting since more combos of gear stats to be rewarded.
I def prefer a more robust stat/skill/attribute system.
I'll take it a step further as well.
I would like it even more if their were random elements to your stat/attributes beyond your control. This, I feel, would give games a sharper edge and make things more surprising down the road. If you can plan out your entire build in some stat calculator and know exactly how your character will perform before you even enter the game, something is lost..
Over the years I remember how a popular single-player RPG series (Elder Scrolls) constantly reduced its stats down to 3 in Skyrim which was down from Oblivion. This carried over to Elder Scrolls Online the MMO. Correct me if I am wrong on this but some MMOs like Vanilla WoW had more stats/Attributes (whatever that game calls them), and some of them I believe were scaled down or removed.
Is this better with the less stats/attributes or more. The thread talking about Horizontal Progression sparked my interest in this subject again, because I was self debating this in regards to how I feel about GW2's stats vs ESO stats. I believe more stats could make the gear in Horizontal Progression more interesting since more combos of gear stats to be rewarded.
[Darksworm reply] ESO has a lot more than 3 character stats. Lol
Really? What is your ES:O character's Strength? How about Dexterity? Do they have a high Intelligence?
Arena, Daggerfall, Morrowind, and Oblivion all had some character attributes. Skyrim reduced them to 3: Health, Stamina, Magicka. Those 3 stats were figured from the attributes in the previous 4 games. I believe ES:O follows Skyrim's example?
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Over the years I remember how a popular single-player RPG series (Elder Scrolls) constantly reduced its stats down to 3 in Skyrim which was down from Oblivion. This carried over to Elder Scrolls Online the MMO. Correct me if I am wrong on this but some MMOs like Vanilla WoW had more stats/Attributes (whatever that game calls them), and some of them I believe were scaled down or removed.
Is this better with the less stats/attributes or more. The thread talking about Horizontal Progression sparked my interest in this subject again, because I was self debating this in regards to how I feel about GW2's stats vs ESO stats. I believe more stats could make the gear in Horizontal Progression more interesting since more combos of gear stats to be rewarded.
[Darksworm reply] ESO has a lot more than 3 character stats. Lol
Really? What is your ES:O character's Strength? How about Dexterity? Do they have a high Intelligence?
Arena, Daggerfall, Morrowind, and Oblivion all had some character attributes. Skyrim reduced them to 3: Health, Stamina, Magicka. Those 3 stats were figured from the attributes in the previous 4 games. I believe ES:O follows Skyrim's example?
They did it differently in Skyrim with various skill trees.
I don't always believe in some of the skill tree choices (for example, I don't care about fist fighting in heavy armor) but one can make a character by picking and choosing each tree.
In Morrowind for example you would assign "picks" depending on what you used most. I don't really see one being superior to the other, just different.
In Elder Scrolls Online you can assign to stamina, magicka and health but the skills on your bar level up as you go.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Comments
If not really in control of things (anything, in any game), that just isn't very interesting imo.
A wholly different thing, is random things, which imo is totally ok, but again, not ok if 'chaos' is the modus operandi of a game (like Eve Online) when pitting players against themselves just for the sake of it and without refinemend of the gameplay (especially the jumpgates).
I like having lots of stats, but ofc the assumption of mine here is ofc that the game is any good.
Case in point, every stat should have a viable and important reason to be in a game.
Case in point, There is no reason to put in something like Armor Class if by level 3 it becomes vastly worthless, which is what happened with DDO, as the levels went up AC/Armor became more and more irrelevant to the point that by around 15th, unless you full meta max stat AC/Armor, you might as well be wearing cloth, so, they revised AC/Armor to keep it more relevant as the levels went up.
This is how a game should work, stats need to have a reason and a value to the gameplay, otherwise, there is no real reason to have them.
Case in point, in GW2, character stats don't exist, because regardless if you are a Norn or an Asura, everyone has the same character stats, in that situation if the stat was 0 or 100, it makes no difference so there is no need for players to even bother themselves with them, might as well call them 0 and go on with your life.
Just like everything else in a game should have a reason to be there.
Everything in the game should have a purpose. a Great example of this is mounts in GW2, they were not originally intended to be in the game, but when they did finally put them in, they gave them a reason to be there, mainly platforming. But the reason was there, as opposed to just a Huge Block of Graphics that gave you an increased run speed, like other games, and in GW2, with Way Points, the advantage of a speed mount is just not there.
Equally so, Mounts in DDO are like a massive WTF. I mean you know they put them in just to put them in, because that is what players wanted and would spend money on.
Same with Mini's in most games, just a pointless item to get players to spend money.
I kinda like how Trove handled that, where the Mini gave you a boon or helped you out (IE: picked up loot for you), that gave a purpose to having that little quibbly dude following you around.
Now, I am all for cosmetics, but the cosmetics should be for things that have a purpose, not cosmetics for the sake of cosmetics.
IE:
Weapon Skins are Cool!
Pointless cosmetic Mini-Pets, not so much.
Allowing everyone to have a pet we can buy cosmetic skins for would be much cooler! Like for example, if I would put the Teq skin on my Rangers Falcon in GW2, that would be epic shizzles to me.
Just my feels on things.
Stats should make difference in builds. If you want to use a dagger rogue and want speedy dodging character you build up those stats that allow. If you was an assassin type maybe you focus on stealth and strength to bring down a guy in one hit from the shadows.
"will
noun
2 : desire, wish: such as
a : disposition, inclination where there's a will there's a way
b : appetite, passion
c : choice, determination
4a : mental powers manifested as wishing, choosing, desiring, or intending
b : a disposition to act according to principles or ends
c : the collective desire of a group
5 : the power of control over one's own actions or emotions"
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/will
5 would probably be related to Wisdom.
Thanks for clarifying. It's been a while since I played P&P D&D. I have started playing DDO a bit lately, but I'm usually already tired when I start playing.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I see. Makes sense.
Intelligence is directly how smart you are, how much knowledge you can memorise and what you can learn/know.
Wisdom is how well you apply your Intelligence.
Yes, obviously, intelligent people may not be wise while even stupid people might be wise in their own way. Though what is wise or unwise might sometimes be subjective.
There's certainly no reason why MMORPGs can't be more complex. Especially since we don't have to remember all the rules and make all the dice rolls ourselves.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
I don't always believe in some of the skill tree choices (for example, I don't care about fist fighting in heavy armor) but one can make a character by picking and choosing each tree.
In Morrowind for example you would assign "picks" depending on what you used most. I don't really see one being superior to the other, just different.
In Elder Scrolls Online you can assign to stamina, magicka and health but the skills on your bar level up as you go.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo