(Note: If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)
In my experience Immersion doesn't work too well in MMOs but in Single Player games it needs to be immersive for it to be worthwhile. At least for me.
I'm waiting for Cyberpunk2077. It checks all the boxes so far.
What do you mean by saying/writing, "...Immersion doesn't work too well in MMOs..."
Can you please elaborate?
Assmunch9000: yo buddy u gonna take that or what? Ferlandimir: nah bro all yours Assmunch9000 looted [Death Sage's Choppa of Doom]. Assmunch9000 challenges you to a duel. Assmunch9000: come on let me test it on u Ferlandimir: fuck off dude Assmunch9000: go get laid or something Fotys4eva: Haha Spacemelon: u guys must be 12
How many MMORPGs can you name that give players incentives or bonuses for Role-Playing (talking/behaving as their character would in-game). That give them any real encouragement to do so whatsoever? How many MMORPGs give players absolutely no reason to even consider Role-Playing their characters?
Are you adding Role-play required to your dream game now?
I've played on RP servers in various games. There is still the fundamental problem that you are surrounded by people sitting behind a computer with 7 empty Diet Mountain Dews to their left.
You can play P&P AD&D or any number of pencil & paper, tabletop RPGs with a person who has "...7 empty Diet Mountain Dews to their left..".
Though I would certainly be questioning that person's taste in beverages. Diet soda is disgusting.
You can find 10,000 brown M&Ms next to people playing hop scotch too. The point was that there are people on the internet interrupting immersion. Random people with different ideas about what is fun or interesting. Humans behind a screen, not living in the Elomian Forest of Raindrops.
So do you want to enforce Role-play in your game or not? Because if not, then it should be obvious why people find MMORPGs less immersive than single player games.
I don't currently have a game. But I wouldn't see anything wrong with encouraging people to Role-Play. I think it would be possible for a game to provide incentives and bonuses that would promote role-playing. I'm not saying it's totally necessary. But I don't know if it's ever really been tried.
(Btw, I somehow missed your post yesterday.)
How would it work? What would qualify as role-play, and who would judge whether any particular incident met those qualifications?
I don't think such could be easily automated, and I don't believe MMORPG providers would be willing to hire enough people to make it otherwise feasible.
It's not about somebody judging RP. And it's not about automating it in some fashion.
It's about a game feeling like a RP game, and giving players a reason to think of it in that way. Thus, hopefully, inspiring players to "act their character."
RP isn't just saying "thee" and "thou." At it's most basic, when a player says "I can cast fireball now" they are role playing their character. If that can be enhanced, and the player thinks in terms of being their character more often, in more ways, then that's an enhancement to RP.
I know what role-playing is.
You were speaking of incentives and bonuses to promote it. How are such to be determined and distributed other than by automation or manual effort?
Through a faction system. Coded, is the way to do it for general game play. GMs can do it during or after GM Events, or RP in the game and do it there. I'm not for this, I've seen the problems with favoritism. Or even perceived favoritism, because "perception is reality."
You wrote: "I would interpret Wittgenstein's words as if you don't know what you are talking about, shut up."
I believe the spirit of things demand that you interpret Wittgenstein in a literal way, and in that case, you would have contradicted yourself in saying that when somebody actually says something, they don't know what they said. Obviously, that is not something Wittgenstein would have meant. It seems to mean, if you can't think it, you can't really say it.
Who are you to tell me to shut up? How abusive and self indulgent.
Not knowing what you are talking about does not equate to not knowing what you said.
In my opinion I did interpret Wittengenstein in a literal way. I simply expressed it in a more direct manner.
I wasn't telling you to shut up. I was expressing my opinion on what the quote meant. Then I moved on from that.
I also wasn't suggesting you don't know what your are talking about.
Perhaps you are self-centered and think everything in response to your posts is about you. Or, perhaps this was an isolated case of misjudgment on your part and you saw a slight not made or intended.
If the former, it isn't. If the latter, approach my earlier post with more clarity and respond again if so inclined... or not, whatever.
In my experience Immersion doesn't work too well in MMOs but in Single Player games it needs to be immersive for it to be worthwhile. At least for me.
I'm waiting for Cyberpunk2077. It checks all the boxes so far.
What do you mean by saying/writing, "...Immersion doesn't work too well in MMOs..."
Can you please elaborate?
Assmunch9000: yo buddy u gonna take that or what? Ferlandimir: nah bro all yours Assmunch9000 looted [Death Sage's Choppa of Doom]. Assmunch9000 challenges you to a duel. Assmunch9000: come on let me test it on u Ferlandimir: fuck off dude Assmunch9000: go get laid or something Fotys4eva: Haha Spacemelon: u guys must be 12
How many MMORPGs can you name that give players incentives or bonuses for Role-Playing (talking/behaving as their character would in-game). That give them any real encouragement to do so whatsoever? How many MMORPGs give players absolutely no reason to even consider Role-Playing their characters?
Are you adding Role-play required to your dream game now?
I've played on RP servers in various games. There is still the fundamental problem that you are surrounded by people sitting behind a computer with 7 empty Diet Mountain Dews to their left.
You can play P&P AD&D or any number of pencil & paper, tabletop RPGs with a person who has "...7 empty Diet Mountain Dews to their left..".
Though I would certainly be questioning that person's taste in beverages. Diet soda is disgusting.
You can find 10,000 brown M&Ms next to people playing hop scotch too. The point was that there are people on the internet interrupting immersion. Random people with different ideas about what is fun or interesting. Humans behind a screen, not living in the Elomian Forest of Raindrops.
So do you want to enforce Role-play in your game or not? Because if not, then it should be obvious why people find MMORPGs less immersive than single player games.
I don't currently have a game. But I wouldn't see anything wrong with encouraging people to Role-Play. I think it would be possible for a game to provide incentives and bonuses that would promote role-playing. I'm not saying it's totally necessary. But I don't know if it's ever really been tried.
(Btw, I somehow missed your post yesterday.)
How would it work? What would qualify as role-play, and who would judge whether any particular incident met those qualifications?
I don't think such could be easily automated, and I don't believe MMORPG providers would be willing to hire enough people to make it otherwise feasible.
It's not about somebody judging RP. And it's not about automating it in some fashion.
It's about a game feeling like a RP game, and giving players a reason to think of it in that way. Thus, hopefully, inspiring players to "act their character."
RP isn't just saying "thee" and "thou." At it's most basic, when a player says "I can cast fireball now" they are role playing their character. If that can be enhanced, and the player thinks in terms of being their character more often, in more ways, then that's an enhancement to RP.
I know what role-playing is.
You were speaking of incentives and bonuses to promote it. How are such to be determined and distributed other than by automation or manual effort?
Through a faction system. Coded, is the way to do it for general game play. GMs can do it during or after GM Events, or RP in the game and do it there. I'm not for this, I've seen the problems with favoritism. Or even perceived favoritism, because "perception is reality."
I still don't see how a coded system can evaluate role-play. It could reward certain actions being done but wouldn't be able to determine if any role-playing was related to it, unless one considers the action in itself to constitute such.
Perhaps it could be done in dedicated events provided enough GMs are involved to cover the number of players interested. The possibility of perceived favourtism would probably be enough for most companies to shy away from it these days.
Unfortunate. It would be interesting if such could be done without issue. It will have to remain primarily the province of the tabletop crowd I suppose.
It's not about somebody judging RP. And it's not about automating it in some fashion.
It's about a game feeling like a RP game, and giving players a reason to think of it in that way. Thus, hopefully, inspiring players to "act their character."
RP isn't just saying "thee" and "thou." At it's most basic, when a player says "I can cast fireball now" they are role playing their character. If that can be enhanced, and the player thinks in terms of being their character more often, in more ways, then that's an enhancement to RP.
I know what role-playing is.
You were speaking of incentives and bonuses to promote it. How are such to be determined and distributed other than by automation or manual effort?
Through a faction system. Coded, is the way to do it for general game play. GMs can do it during or after GM Events, or RP in the game and do it there. I'm not for this, I've seen the problems with favoritism. Or even perceived favoritism, because "perception is reality."
I still don't see how a coded system can evaluate role-play. It could reward certain actions being done but wouldn't be able to determine if any role-playing was related to it, unless one considers the action in itself to constitute such.
Perhaps it could be done in dedicated events provided enough GMs are involved to cover the number of players interested. The possibility of perceived favourtism would probably be enough for most companies to shy away from it these days.
Unfortunate. It would be interesting if such could be done without issue. It will have to remain primarily the province of the tabletop crowd I suppose.
There is no way that a game can tell when a player is RPing if there's no action involved. But it can read an action that is coded to tell the game that the player did something that benefits their Faction, their deity, or NPCs, within the context of what that player SHOULD do if RPing.
So actions like:
- saving an NPC from attack, if they are "good" alignment. The player comes across a farmer that's being attacked by a giant beatle, he/she attacks it and gets a little Faction bonus, they kill it and get more. The NPC is alive afterwards and awards the player some more.
- Player makes a donation to a Temple of their deity, they get some Faction points.
- Player steals an artifact that's important to their Faction, from a diametrically opposed Faction (maybe from a Temple, a royal cemetery, whatever is "attached" to the other Faction), and gets Faction points.
- Player attacks an NPC that's not an enemy, and gets a NEGATIVE hit to their Faction points.
See what I'm getting at? There's all kinds of things that can be coded to give, or detract, Faction Points.
Treat Faction as a separate Progression System, with it's own "level based" rewards.
This "enhances" that feeling of playing your character. And hopefully gives the player some incentive to RP their character more than they would have.
EDIT TO ADD: The same thing can apply to craftsmen, per their Craft Guild Faction. A mason builds a defensive wall, he gets Faction Points in his Masons Guild, and rewards of whatever kind as it builds up.
It's not about somebody judging RP. And it's not about automating it in some fashion.
It's about a game feeling like a RP game, and giving players a reason to think of it in that way. Thus, hopefully, inspiring players to "act their character."
RP isn't just saying "thee" and "thou." At it's most basic, when a player says "I can cast fireball now" they are role playing their character. If that can be enhanced, and the player thinks in terms of being their character more often, in more ways, then that's an enhancement to RP.
I know what role-playing is.
You were speaking of incentives and bonuses to promote it. How are such to be determined and distributed other than by automation or manual effort?
Through a faction system. Coded, is the way to do it for general game play. GMs can do it during or after GM Events, or RP in the game and do it there. I'm not for this, I've seen the problems with favoritism. Or even perceived favoritism, because "perception is reality."
I still don't see how a coded system can evaluate role-play. It could reward certain actions being done but wouldn't be able to determine if any role-playing was related to it, unless one considers the action in itself to constitute such.
Perhaps it could be done in dedicated events provided enough GMs are involved to cover the number of players interested. The possibility of perceived favourtism would probably be enough for most companies to shy away from it these days.
Unfortunate. It would be interesting if such could be done without issue. It will have to remain primarily the province of the tabletop crowd I suppose.
There is no way that a game can tell when a player is RPing if there's no action involved. But it can read an action that is coded to tell the game that the player did something that benefits their Faction, their deity, or NPCs, within the context of what that player SHOULD do if RPing.
So actions like:
- saving an NPC from attack, if they are "good" alignment. The player comes across a farmer that's being attacked by a giant beatle, he/she attacks it and gets a little Faction bonus, they kill it and get more. The NPC is alive afterwards and awards the player some more.
- Player makes a donation to a Temple of their deity, they get some Faction points.
- Player steals an artifact that's important to their Faction, from a diametrically opposed Faction (maybe from a Temple, a royal cemetery, whatever is "attached" to the other Faction), and gets Faction points.
- Player attacks an NPC that's not an enemy, and gets a NEGATIVE hit to their Faction points.
See what I'm getting at? There's all kinds of things that can be coded to give, or detract, Faction Points.
Treat Faction as a separate Progression System, with it's own "level based" rewards.
This "enhances" that feeling of playing your character. And hopefully gives the player some incentive to RP their character more than they would have.
EDIT TO ADD: The same thing can apply to craftsmen, per their Craft Guild Faction. A mason builds a defensive wall, he gets Faction Points in his Masons Guild, and rewards of whatever kind as it builds up.
There is no way a game can tell if a character is role-playing at all. Automated quest rewards are handed out all the same whether people do the tasks in character or not.
But, your examples illustrate well how an automated system can provide something reasonably close provided it was large enough in scope and triggered often enough to keep it in the minds of players. Being easily monitored automatically any due rewards could be as well in like fashion.
For crafting I feel such points should be for dedication to the craft in general rather than marital endeavours with the rewards coming from professional bodies committed to such, unless the game is PvP-centric where activities all center on martial pursuits by default.
So, you have persuaded me. I concur that such done well would be of benefit to a MMORPG. If the occasional GM led event can add some extra spice, all the better.
It's not about somebody judging RP. And it's not about automating it in some fashion.
It's about a game feeling like a RP game, and giving players a reason to think of it in that way. Thus, hopefully, inspiring players to "act their character."
RP isn't just saying "thee" and "thou." At it's most basic, when a player says "I can cast fireball now" they are role playing their character. If that can be enhanced, and the player thinks in terms of being their character more often, in more ways, then that's an enhancement to RP.
I know what role-playing is.
You were speaking of incentives and bonuses to promote it. How are such to be determined and distributed other than by automation or manual effort?
Through a faction system. Coded, is the way to do it for general game play. GMs can do it during or after GM Events, or RP in the game and do it there. I'm not for this, I've seen the problems with favoritism. Or even perceived favoritism, because "perception is reality."
I still don't see how a coded system can evaluate role-play. It could reward certain actions being done but wouldn't be able to determine if any role-playing was related to it, unless one considers the action in itself to constitute such.
Perhaps it could be done in dedicated events provided enough GMs are involved to cover the number of players interested. The possibility of perceived favourtism would probably be enough for most companies to shy away from it these days.
Unfortunate. It would be interesting if such could be done without issue. It will have to remain primarily the province of the tabletop crowd I suppose.
There is no way that a game can tell when a player is RPing if there's no action involved. But it can read an action that is coded to tell the game that the player did something that benefits their Faction, their deity, or NPCs, within the context of what that player SHOULD do if RPing.
So actions like:
- saving an NPC from attack, if they are "good" alignment. The player comes across a farmer that's being attacked by a giant beatle, he/she attacks it and gets a little Faction bonus, they kill it and get more. The NPC is alive afterwards and awards the player some more.
- Player makes a donation to a Temple of their deity, they get some Faction points.
- Player steals an artifact that's important to their Faction, from a diametrically opposed Faction (maybe from a Temple, a royal cemetery, whatever is "attached" to the other Faction), and gets Faction points.
- Player attacks an NPC that's not an enemy, and gets a NEGATIVE hit to their Faction points.
See what I'm getting at? There's all kinds of things that can be coded to give, or detract, Faction Points.
Treat Faction as a separate Progression System, with it's own "level based" rewards.
This "enhances" that feeling of playing your character. And hopefully gives the player some incentive to RP their character more than they would have.
EDIT TO ADD: The same thing can apply to craftsmen, per their Craft Guild Faction. A mason builds a defensive wall, he gets Faction Points in his Masons Guild, and rewards of whatever kind as it builds up.
There is no way a game can tell if a character is role-playing at all. Automated quest rewards are handed out all the same whether people do the tasks in character or not.
But, your examples illustrate well how an automated system can provide something reasonably close provided it was large enough in scope and triggered often enough to keep it in the minds of players. Being easily monitored automatically any due rewards could be as well in like fashion.
For crafting I feel such points should be for dedication to the craft in general rather than marital endeavours with the rewards coming from professional bodies committed to such, unless the game is PvP-centric where activities all center on martial pursuits by default.
So, you have persuaded me. I concur that such done well would be of benefit to a MMORPG. If the occasional GM led event can add some extra spice, all the better.
A thing I've wanted to see in a more "worldly" MMORPG is crafting knowledge growth. This would fall directly in the path of Faction award points. Two primary forms of this is:
- Studying ancient sources (not just tomes, but also going out to locations to study objects. An arch for a mason, building those takes special knowledge. There's a famous one in a cathedral in Paris (I think) that's tearing up the support wall after centuries of ill planned stress, just as a RL example.
- Experimentation. I think players should be able to experiment with natural resources in an attempt to learn new properties. Better properties as in making a better sword in some way, new properties as in making a sword that can hold a new spell effect. Alchemy is a natural for this, but I think any crafting skill can be also.
These are basically "discoveries." Maybe discovering hidden things in the game world might give some form of Faction reward points too. Or maybe even a direct Faction reward rather than the points. There's a lot to consider, this is a pretty new idea, as far as I know. It's got a lot of potential for making a game much more interesting, I think.
I just had an idea on the Crafting Faction business mentioned in the above post. Suppose that the crafter needs a subset of knowledge first for major projects. The Mason might need a knowledge like "support", or maybe better named "buttress" in order to learn how to build an arch. Some other knowledge items too, such as "cap stone", "curved cuts", and whatever else.
This makes it more difficult, and even adds some thinking to it all, for Discoveries. These sub knowledge items could even be Faction Rewards themselves. They'd be like inspirations from the gods.
A thing I've wanted to see in a more "worldly" MMORPG is crafting knowledge growth. This would fall directly in the path of Faction award points. Two primary forms of this is:
- Studying ancient sources (not just tomes, but also going out to locations to study objects. An arch for a mason, building those takes special knowledge. There's a famous one in a cathedral in Paris (I think) that's tearing up the support wall after centuries of ill planned stress, just as a RL example.
- Experimentation. I think players should be able to experiment with natural resources in an attempt to learn new properties. Better properties as in making a better sword in some way, new properties as in making a sword that can hold a new spell effect. Alchemy is a natural for this, but I think any crafting skill can be also.
These are basically "discoveries." Maybe discovering hidden things in the game world might give some form of Faction reward points too. Or maybe even a direct Faction reward rather than the points. There's a lot to consider, this is a pretty new idea, as far as I know. It's got a lot of potential for making a game much more interesting, I think.
ESO has some things like that, but it isn't so much faction related, at least in terms of the three major powers.
The Mages Guild rewards players for finding tomes of lore throughout the world. Over time doing so grants you access to training only they provide.
The Fighters Guild rewards players players for slaying otherworldly foes and the undead, granting access to their special skills as your death toll inflicted mounts.
The Undaunted do the same, except their activity reward is based on fighting large and powerful enemies. They too have a skill line.
The Psijic order rewards for finding and closing temporal breaches. Along with being able to see caches in the overland limited to their access. Yet another skill line.
There are more, but they typically follow the same pattern.
In addition to that, doing crafting writs sometimes rewards you with vague maps to the location of material caches. Treasure maps can also be found that instead lead to loot.
In the next expansion they are adding an Antiquities System so that one can track down and excavate ancient relics, that also has yet another skill line.
Instead of discussing 'knowledge', you ended up entertaining the idea of telling people to shut up, that is a big jump from philosophy, like something entirely different. That is why you sounded like a sarcastic dick to me.
"Definition of immersive :
providing, involving, or characterized by deep absorption or immersion
in something (such as an activity or a real or artificial environment)"
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
A thing I've wanted to see in a more "worldly" MMORPG is crafting knowledge growth. This would fall directly in the path of Faction award points. Two primary forms of this is:
- Studying ancient sources (not just tomes, but also going out to locations to study objects. An arch for a mason, building those takes special knowledge. There's a famous one in a cathedral in Paris (I think) that's tearing up the support wall after centuries of ill planned stress, just as a RL example.
- Experimentation. I think players should be able to experiment with natural resources in an attempt to learn new properties. Better properties as in making a better sword in some way, new properties as in making a sword that can hold a new spell effect. Alchemy is a natural for this, but I think any crafting skill can be also.
These are basically "discoveries." Maybe discovering hidden things in the game world might give some form of Faction reward points too. Or maybe even a direct Faction reward rather than the points. There's a lot to consider, this is a pretty new idea, as far as I know. It's got a lot of potential for making a game much more interesting, I think.
ESO has some things like that, but it isn't so much faction related, at least in terms of the three major powers.
The Mages Guild rewards players for finding tomes of lore throughout the world. Over time doing so grants you access to training only they provide.
The Fighters Guild rewards players players for slaying otherworldly foes and the undead, granting access to their special skills as your death toll inflicted mounts.
The Undaunted do the same, except their activity reward is based on fighting large and powerful enemies. They too have a skill line.
The Psijic order rewards for finding and closing temporal breaches. Along with being able to see caches in the overland limited to their access. Yet another skill line.
There are more, but they typically follow the same pattern.
In addition to that, doing crafting writs sometimes rewards you with vague maps to the location of material caches. Treasure maps can also be found that instead lead to loot.
In the next expansion they are adding an Antiquities System so that one can track down and excavate ancient relics, that also has yet another skill line.
So the one game in years that matters, they are advancing the genre. I didn't know this about ESO.
I wonder, can you actually read those tomes of lore? Is there any hidden meaning to them? That's the sort of place I'd want see hints to special discoveries. Are there any related world items, like inscriptions on walls (in dungeons, ruins, caves, anywhere)? This could be very interesting. That's the sort of game play that gets me excited.
"Definition of immersive :
providing, involving, or characterized by deep absorption or immersion
in something (such as an activity or a real or artificial environment)"
Everything in the game needs to fit and belong in the game.
If you have backpedal or try to stop people from using a feature you put in the game, whatever that feature is, you screwed it up and put it in wrong.
To use an example.
Some games put in buildings purely for show, they are just cosmetics around a town. The devs never plan to have players enter these building.
What makes more sense, making a justice system where guards arrest people for going into those buildings because you didn't want them to go in those buildings to start with, but you still end up needing to make it so that players can enter these buildings and design and build all their interiors and NPC's as well, or just make the Buildings Cosmetics, and the players can't interact with them at all.
When someone talks to me about "Realism" in a game, I often wonder why they draw the lines at where they draw them?
Just like, I said at the start: "I want my character shit their pants mid fight, because realism murtherfucker"
Let me ask everyone that wants realism.. why didn't any of you want that as well?
Too real for you?
So when you talk about "realism" the real question is, where you draw the line, and why there.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Everything in the game needs to fit and belong in the game.
If you have backpedal or try to stop people from using a feature you put in the game, whatever that feature is, you screwed it up and put it in wrong.
To use an example.
Some games put in buildings purely for show, they are just cosmetics around a town. The devs never plan to have players enter these building.
What makes more sense, making a justice system where guards arrest people for going into those buildings because you didn't want them to go in those buildings to start with, but you still end up needing to make it so that players can enter these buildings and design and build all their interiors and NPC's as well, or just make the Buildings Cosmetics, and the players can't interact with them at all.
When someone talks to me about "Realism" in a game, I often wonder why they draw the lines at where they draw them?
Just like, I said at the start: "I want my character shit their pants mid fight, because realism murtherfucker"
Let me ask everyone that wants realism.. why didn't any of you want that as well?
Too real for you?
So when you talk about "realism" the real question is, where you draw the line, and why there.
Well, for starters, when a player discovered, and posted a picture of, a pile of horse turd in UO, everyone was running around looking for some that they could pick up and take home with them. I'm sure they'd have proudly displayed that horse turd. Sooo...you know...some things you'd least expect have value to a lot of gamers.
No doubt such players would expect, in the case of your stinky example, that that player's pant shjt would have their name on it. Like, "Ungood's pant shjt from a fight with a Crazed Goblin." Then they could display it in their house with even more pride. Even collect all your pant shjt from weeks of adventures. How cool would THAT be?
"Now look at this, and in the meantime I'll delete this post."
Everything in the game needs to fit and belong in the game.
If you have backpedal or try to stop people from using a feature you put in the game, whatever that feature is, you screwed it up and put it in wrong.
To use an example.
Some games put in buildings purely for show, they are just cosmetics around a town. The devs never plan to have players enter these building.
What makes more sense, making a justice system where guards arrest people for going into those buildings because you didn't want them to go in those buildings to start with, but you still end up needing to make it so that players can enter these buildings and design and build all their interiors and NPC's as well, or just make the Buildings Cosmetics, and the players can't interact with them at all.
When someone talks to me about "Realism" in a game, I often wonder why they draw the lines at where they draw them?
Just like, I said at the start: "I want my character shit their pants mid fight, because realism murtherfucker"
Let me ask everyone that wants realism.. why didn't any of you want that as well?
Too real for you?
So when you talk about "realism" the real question is, where you draw the line, and why there.
Well, for starters, when a player discovered, and posted a picture of, a pile of horse turd in UO, everyone was running around looking for some that they could pick up and take home with them. I'm sure they'd have proudly displayed that horse turd. Sooo...you know...some things you'd least expect have value to a lot of gamers.
No doubt such players would expect, in the case of your stinky example, that that player's pant shjt would have their name on it. Like, "Ungood's pant shjt from a fight with a Crazed Goblin." Then they could display it in their house with even more pride. Even collect all your pant shjt from weeks of adventures. How cool would THAT be?
Don't forget we would now have.
"Ungood's Shit Soiled Breeches", that have a huge brown stain down the back, and need to spend the next 5 hours washing, before they no longer impair movement, prevent hiding, and automatically cause all diplomacy checks fail, not to mention a clumilate chance to cause a bacterial rash to from on Ungood's ass, and then we could have "Ungood rash infected Ass", that would need to be tended with balm, or if's high fantasy, requires elves to spank his ass with curative life sculpted aloe vera whips.
This could just get better and better.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
So when you talk about "realism" the real question is, where you draw the line, and why there.
Seriously, the "more realism" many gamers want is to add immersion. The real question, if a Dev wants to give players that, is how much can they afford to put in?
Instead of discussing 'knowledge', you ended up entertaining the idea of telling people to shut up, that is a big jump from philosophy, like something entirely different. That is why you sounded like a sarcastic dick to me.
No, I gave my interpretation of a quote. That is in no way equivalent to me telling people to shut up. It was not a big jump from philosophy, but simply a simplification of terminology. Your interpretation is on you alone.
A thing I've wanted to see in a more "worldly" MMORPG is crafting knowledge growth. This would fall directly in the path of Faction award points. Two primary forms of this is:
- Studying ancient sources (not just tomes, but also going out to locations to study objects. An arch for a mason, building those takes special knowledge. There's a famous one in a cathedral in Paris (I think) that's tearing up the support wall after centuries of ill planned stress, just as a RL example.
- Experimentation. I think players should be able to experiment with natural resources in an attempt to learn new properties. Better properties as in making a better sword in some way, new properties as in making a sword that can hold a new spell effect. Alchemy is a natural for this, but I think any crafting skill can be also.
These are basically "discoveries." Maybe discovering hidden things in the game world might give some form of Faction reward points too. Or maybe even a direct Faction reward rather than the points. There's a lot to consider, this is a pretty new idea, as far as I know. It's got a lot of potential for making a game much more interesting, I think.
ESO has some things like that, but it isn't so much faction related, at least in terms of the three major powers.
The Mages Guild rewards players for finding tomes of lore throughout the world. Over time doing so grants you access to training only they provide.
The Fighters Guild rewards players players for slaying otherworldly foes and the undead, granting access to their special skills as your death toll inflicted mounts.
The Undaunted do the same, except their activity reward is based on fighting large and powerful enemies. They too have a skill line.
The Psijic order rewards for finding and closing temporal breaches. Along with being able to see caches in the overland limited to their access. Yet another skill line.
There are more, but they typically follow the same pattern.
In addition to that, doing crafting writs sometimes rewards you with vague maps to the location of material caches. Treasure maps can also be found that instead lead to loot.
In the next expansion they are adding an Antiquities System so that one can track down and excavate ancient relics, that also has yet another skill line.
So the one game in years that matters, they are advancing the genre. I didn't know this about ESO.
I wonder, can you actually read those tomes of lore? Is there any hidden meaning to them? That's the sort of place I'd want see hints to special discoveries. Are there any related world items, like inscriptions on walls (in dungeons, ruins, caves, anywhere)? This could be very interesting. That's the sort of game play that gets me excited.
You can read the tomes but so far as I know they are lore only. The Antiquities system being added soon sounds like it will be more in line with the other things you mentioned based on the related teaser video I've seen.
I just did a quick search on youtube and there are many videos that describe the system as it is on the test server. I haven't watched those yet myself, but perhaps they would help you determine if what is planned would interest you.
Everything in the game needs to fit and belong in the game.
If you have backpedal or try to stop people from using a feature you put in the game, whatever that feature is, you screwed it up and put it in wrong.
To use an example.
Some games put in buildings purely for show, they are just cosmetics around a town. The devs never plan to have players enter these building.
What makes more sense, making a justice system where guards arrest people for going into those buildings because you didn't want them to go in those buildings to start with, but you still end up needing to make it so that players can enter these buildings and design and build all their interiors and NPC's as well, or just make the Buildings Cosmetics, and the players can't interact with them at all.
When someone talks to me about "Realism" in a game, I often wonder why they draw the lines at where they draw them?
Just like, I said at the start: "I want my character shit their pants mid fight, because realism murtherfucker"
Let me ask everyone that wants realism.. why didn't any of you want that as well?
Too real for you?
So when you talk about "realism" the real question is, where you draw the line, and why there.
For the same reason I don't want to see people in movies use the bathroom. Some things are vulgar or private. I don't think it adds interesting realism. Eating and drinking, however, can be, especially at feasts, a communal event. Many interesting things can occur during meals or feasts. Many interesting encounters or situations can occur in a tavern or inn because a character in a book, film, or game must go to a tavern or inn in order to eat, drink, sleep, get their horses stabled, etc.
Post edited by Ancient_Exile on
"If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."
"Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."
(Note: If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)
Just like, I said at the start: "I want my character shit their pants mid fight, because realism murtherfucker"
Let me ask everyone that wants realism.. why didn't any of you want that as well?
There are some realities I think most are happy to escape from.
See that is my whole point.
Some people are happy to escape from the reality of dealing with sociopaths or bullies.
So much like Pants Shitting, there are some things people just feel are best not put into their, not because it isn't a part of reality, but because it does not offer anything of merit or value to the overall game.
This is my whole point of saying that every feature, everything that is put into the game, should be a viable and encouraged part of the game.
If you put something into the game, that you need to discourage people from doing, then you did it wrong.
And this transcends whatever the feature is, if you don't want players killing or attacking specific NPC's simply remove their ability to do.
Putting in the feature and then seeking to discourage the use of this feature, is, in short, at the very least, double the work of a developer, as that they need to put in the mechanic, then need to put in another mechanic to discourage the first mechanic.
Just think about that for a bit.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Just like, I said at the start: "I want my character shit their pants mid fight, because realism murtherfucker"
Let me ask everyone that wants realism.. why didn't any of you want that as well?
There are some realities I think most are happy to escape from.
See that is my whole point.
Some people are happy to escape from the reality of dealing with sociopaths or bullies.
So much like Pants Shitting, there are some things people just feel are best not put into their, not because it isn't a part of reality, but because it does not offer anything of merit or value to the overall game.
This is my whole point of saying that every feature, everything that is put into the game, should be a viable and encouraged part of the game.
If you put something into the game, that you need to discourage people from doing, then you did it wrong.
And this transcends whatever the feature is, if you don't want players killing or attacking specific NPC's simply remove their ability to do.
Putting in the feature and then seeking to discourage the use of this feature, is, in short, at the very least, double the work of a developer, as that they need to put in the mechanic, then need to put in another mechanic to discourage the first mechanic.
Just think about that for a bit.
What if I want people to be able to do something, but I just want them to be able to do it all the time, wherever and whenever they please, for no other reason than simply because they can? Dungeon Masters and Game Masters use devices to discourage their players from doing something they don't want them to do all the time. Unless that DM or GM wants to allow players to simply bypass whatever adventure that he/she has planned and waste however many hours he or she spent creating the scenario/adventure/dungeon. Or waste the money he/she spent buying the adventure/campaign module.
EDIT: The more skilled DM or GM can subtly encourage ('force') his/her players to do something or make a certain choice without them necessarily being aware that they are being forced. If the players are role-playing (acting/behaving in character).
But most MMORPGs have chosen to be heavy-handed DMs/GMs. Simply telling their players that, "no, you cannot do this because I say so. Instead you must do this or that. Why? Because I say so."
Post edited by Ancient_Exile on
"If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."
"Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."
(Note: If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)
Just like, I said at the start: "I want my character shit their pants mid fight, because realism murtherfucker"
Let me ask everyone that wants realism.. why didn't any of you want that as well?
There are some realities I think most are happy to escape from.
See that is my whole point.
Some people are happy to escape from the reality of dealing with sociopaths or bullies.
So much like Pants Shitting, there are some things people just feel are best not put into their, not because it isn't a part of reality, but because it does not offer anything of merit or value to the overall game.
This is my whole point of saying that every feature, everything that is put into the game, should be a viable and encouraged part of the game.
If you put something into the game, that you need to discourage people from doing, then you did it wrong.
And this transcends whatever the feature is, if you don't want players killing or attacking specific NPC's simply remove their ability to do.
Putting in the feature and then seeking to discourage the use of this feature, is, in short, at the very least, double the work of a developer, as that they need to put in the mechanic, then need to put in another mechanic to discourage the first mechanic.
Just think about that for a bit.
What if I want people to be able to do something, but I just want them to be able to do it all the time, wherever and whenever they please, for no other reason than simply because they can? Dungeon Masters and Game Masters use devices to discourage their players from doing something they don't want them to do all the time. Unless that DM or GM wants to allow players to simply bypass whatever adventure that he/she has planned and waste however many hours he or she spent creating the scenario/adventure/dungeon. Or waste the money he/she spent buying the adventure/campaign module.
EDIT: The more skilled DM or GM can subtly encourage ('force') his/her players to do something or make a certain choice without them necessarily being aware that they are being forced. If the players are role-playing (acting/behaving in character).
But most MMORPGs have chosen to be heavy-handed DMs/GMs. Simply telling their players that, "no, you cannot do this because I say so. Instead you must do this or that. Why? Because I say so."
Gonna suggest you get some real world EXP on that and go play some D&D games with a few assholes..
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Just like, I said at the start: "I want my character shit their pants mid fight, because realism murtherfucker"
Let me ask everyone that wants realism.. why didn't any of you want that as well?
There are some realities I think most are happy to escape from.
See that is my whole point.
Some people are happy to escape from the reality of dealing with sociopaths or bullies.
So much like Pants Shitting, there are some things people just feel are best not put into their, not because it isn't a part of reality, but because it does not offer anything of merit or value to the overall game.
This is my whole point of saying that every feature, everything that is put into the game, should be a viable and encouraged part of the game.
If you put something into the game, that you need to discourage people from doing, then you did it wrong.
And this transcends whatever the feature is, if you don't want players killing or attacking specific NPC's simply remove their ability to do.
Putting in the feature and then seeking to discourage the use of this feature, is, in short, at the very least, double the work of a developer, as that they need to put in the mechanic, then need to put in another mechanic to discourage the first mechanic.
Just think about that for a bit.
What if I want people to be able to do something, but I just want them to be able to do it all the time, wherever and whenever they please, for no other reason than simply because they can? Dungeon Masters and Game Masters use devices to discourage their players from doing something they don't want them to do all the time. Unless that DM or GM wants to allow players to simply bypass whatever adventure that he/she has planned and waste however many hours he or she spent creating the scenario/adventure/dungeon. Or waste the money he/she spent buying the adventure/campaign module.
EDIT: The more skilled DM or GM can subtly encourage ('force') his/her players to do something or make a certain choice without them necessarily being aware that they are being forced. If the players are role-playing (acting/behaving in character).
But most MMORPGs have chosen to be heavy-handed DMs/GMs. Simply telling their players that, "no, you cannot do this because I say so. Instead you must do this or that. Why? Because I say so."
Gonna suggest you get some real world EXP on that and go play some D&D games with a few assholes..
Are you suggesting that I've never in my entire been an AD&D DM? And, hey, if a player wants to be a total ***hole, I always have the option of ruthlessly and mercilessly killing their character. Then having their equipment stolen/destroyed and/or their character's body eaten. See if your jerk of a cleric/first-aid kit buddy can resurrect the ogre dung later. Haha!
"If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."
"Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."
(Note: If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)
Comments
GMs can do it during or after GM Events, or RP in the game and do it there.
I'm not for this, I've seen the problems with favoritism. Or even perceived favoritism, because "perception is reality."
Once upon a time....
But it can read an action that is coded to tell the game that the player did something that benefits their Faction, their deity, or NPCs, within the context of what that player SHOULD do if RPing.
So actions like:
- saving an NPC from attack, if they are "good" alignment.
The player comes across a farmer that's being attacked by a giant beatle, he/she attacks it and gets a little Faction bonus, they kill it and get more. The NPC is alive afterwards and awards the player some more.
- Player makes a donation to a Temple of their deity, they get some Faction points.
- Player steals an artifact that's important to their Faction, from a diametrically opposed Faction (maybe from a Temple, a royal cemetery, whatever is "attached" to the other Faction), and gets Faction points.
- Player attacks an NPC that's not an enemy, and gets a NEGATIVE hit to their Faction points.
See what I'm getting at? There's all kinds of things that can be coded to give, or detract, Faction Points.
Treat Faction as a separate Progression System, with it's own "level based" rewards.
This "enhances" that feeling of playing your character. And hopefully gives the player some incentive to RP their character more than they would have.
EDIT TO ADD:
The same thing can apply to craftsmen, per their Craft Guild Faction.
A mason builds a defensive wall, he gets Faction Points in his Masons Guild, and rewards of whatever kind as it builds up.
Once upon a time....
A thing I've wanted to see in a more "worldly" MMORPG is crafting knowledge growth.
This would fall directly in the path of Faction award points.
Two primary forms of this is:
- Studying ancient sources (not just tomes, but also going out to locations to study objects. An arch for a mason, building those takes special knowledge. There's a famous one in a cathedral in Paris (I think) that's tearing up the support wall after centuries of ill planned stress, just as a RL example.
- Experimentation. I think players should be able to experiment with natural resources in an attempt to learn new properties. Better properties as in making a better sword in some way, new properties as in making a sword that can hold a new spell effect.
Alchemy is a natural for this, but I think any crafting skill can be also.
These are basically "discoveries."
Maybe discovering hidden things in the game world might give some form of Faction reward points too. Or maybe even a direct Faction reward rather than the points.
There's a lot to consider, this is a pretty new idea, as far as I know.
It's got a lot of potential for making a game much more interesting, I think.
Once upon a time....
I just had an idea on the Crafting Faction business mentioned in the above post.
Suppose that the crafter needs a subset of knowledge first for major projects.
The Mason might need a knowledge like "support", or maybe better named "buttress" in order to learn how to build an arch. Some other knowledge items too, such as "cap stone", "curved cuts", and whatever else.
This makes it more difficult, and even adds some thinking to it all, for Discoveries.
These sub knowledge items could even be Faction Rewards themselves. They'd be like inspirations from the gods.
Once upon a time....
Instead of discussing 'knowledge', you ended up entertaining the idea of telling people to shut up, that is a big jump from philosophy, like something entirely different. That is why you sounded like a sarcastic dick to me.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
I didn't know this about ESO.
I wonder, can you actually read those tomes of lore?
Is there any hidden meaning to them?
That's the sort of place I'd want see hints to special discoveries.
Are there any related world items, like inscriptions on walls (in dungeons, ruins, caves, anywhere)?
This could be very interesting.
That's the sort of game play that gets me excited.
Once upon a time....
I think "yes and no."
Some things are just immersive no matter who you are, unless you are simply unable to be immersed by anything at all.
But that's still a good point. And a good reason to expand the effort into various sorts.
Really worth thinking about for a game designer.
Once upon a time....
Everything in the game needs to fit and belong in the game.
If you have backpedal or try to stop people from using a feature you put in the game, whatever that feature is, you screwed it up and put it in wrong.
To use an example.
Some games put in buildings purely for show, they are just cosmetics around a town. The devs never plan to have players enter these building.
What makes more sense, making a justice system where guards arrest people for going into those buildings because you didn't want them to go in those buildings to start with, but you still end up needing to make it so that players can enter these buildings and design and build all their interiors and NPC's as well, or just make the Buildings Cosmetics, and the players can't interact with them at all.
When someone talks to me about "Realism" in a game, I often wonder why they draw the lines at where they draw them?
Just like, I said at the start: "I want my character shit their pants mid fight, because realism murtherfucker"
Let me ask everyone that wants realism.. why didn't any of you want that as well?
Too real for you?
So when you talk about "realism" the real question is, where you draw the line, and why there.
Sooo...you know...some things you'd least expect have value to a lot of gamers.
No doubt such players would expect, in the case of your stinky example, that that player's pant shjt would have their name on it.
Like, "Ungood's pant shjt from a fight with a Crazed Goblin."
Then they could display it in their house with even more pride. Even collect all your pant shjt from weeks of adventures. How cool would THAT be?
"Now look at this, and in the meantime I'll delete this post."
Once upon a time....
"Ungood's Shit Soiled Breeches", that have a huge brown stain down the back, and need to spend the next 5 hours washing, before they no longer impair movement, prevent hiding, and automatically cause all diplomacy checks fail, not to mention a clumilate chance to cause a bacterial rash to from on Ungood's ass, and then we could have "Ungood rash infected Ass", that would need to be tended with balm, or if's high fantasy, requires elves to spank his ass with curative life sculpted aloe vera whips.
This could just get better and better.
The real question, if a Dev wants to give players that, is how much can they afford to put in?
Once upon a time....
For the same reason I don't want to see people in movies use the bathroom. Some things are vulgar or private. I don't think it adds interesting realism. Eating and drinking, however, can be, especially at feasts, a communal event. Many interesting things can occur during meals or feasts. Many interesting encounters or situations can occur in a tavern or inn because a character in a book, film, or game must go to a tavern or inn in order to eat, drink, sleep, get their horses stabled, etc.
There are some realities I think most are happy to escape from.
Some people are happy to escape from the reality of dealing with sociopaths or bullies.
So much like Pants Shitting, there are some things people just feel are best not put into their, not because it isn't a part of reality, but because it does not offer anything of merit or value to the overall game.
This is my whole point of saying that every feature, everything that is put into the game, should be a viable and encouraged part of the game.
If you put something into the game, that you need to discourage people from doing, then you did it wrong.
And this transcends whatever the feature is, if you don't want players killing or attacking specific NPC's simply remove their ability to do.
Putting in the feature and then seeking to discourage the use of this feature, is, in short, at the very least, double the work of a developer, as that they need to put in the mechanic, then need to put in another mechanic to discourage the first mechanic.
Just think about that for a bit.
Are you suggesting that I've never in my entire been an AD&D DM? And, hey, if a player wants to be a total ***hole, I always have the option of ruthlessly and mercilessly killing their character. Then having their equipment stolen/destroyed and/or their character's body eaten. See if your jerk of a cleric/first-aid kit buddy can resurrect the ogre dung later. Haha!