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MMOSide Chat: MMO Releases Really Need To Do Better

SystemSystem Member UncommonPosts: 12,599
edited May 2020 in News & Features Discussion

imageMMOSide Chat: MMO Releases Really Need To Do Better

Whenever a new MMO releases, there is either applause for a job well done, but more often there are excuses as to why an MMO launches buggy or unplayable out the gate. In this Fireside chat, we discuss why MMO companies need to do better.

Read the full story here


Gdemami
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Comments

  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 17,586
    The standards for what we accept from gaming companies is so far below what we would accept from any other industry yet I am still amazed on a regular basis when a company and its community lowers the bar even further.

    As the editor of this site you have far more leverage to make that point to a wide audience. Will this article be a one and done or will you make this the first of many and call out companies for ALL the substandard practices they use not only at launch but during the years of development when they are taking our money with “no refund” policies?

    GdemamiViper482Valentinaetlar[Deleted User]SamhaelGormogon

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  • UntamedgunnerUntamedgunner Member UncommonPosts: 56
    I see it this way. Especially with an mmorpg live service game, you can not for see all the bugs, glitches and issues until it is live. A rule thumb for all MMORPG VETRENS if you want a smooth ride do not buy, do not play at or near launch. Early Access mmo's we know or well I should say should know the risk of buying day 1. New expansions same thing if you get upset with login bugs disconnects ect. You have no business getting day 1. No one is making us buy games/expansions on launch day we know this is what happens, I myself risk it for the love of the game lol. I think the problem is more so that some of todays gamers are spoiled little brats! I am 42 comadore 64 crapy 8 bit that was what we had, heck most 2 player games you had to wait for your friend to die for your turn. Today my mind is blown!! Voice chat text chat team up with a bunch of friends at once it is insane! There was a time you put floppy disk in , put disk in play game then it is over. If it ship with glitches (and a plenty there were) that is it you lived with it period. Now we are lucky with a patch or 4 lol its smooth as glass. Look at inflation heck milk was $1.49 15 yrs ago now $3.99 games where $49.99 15yrs agonow there either that price or tops $59.99 DEAL of a LIFETIME! Movies 15 yrs ago $10 now freaking $20. My point I guess is we live in the greatest time for gaming stop the complaining or wait to buy. Ow that's right I can name at least 10 mmo's that launched smooth, there's the 1 you know then that other one and last that that fighting game thing, exactly they never launch smooth.
    Slapshot1188
  • bcbullybcbully Member EpicPosts: 11,843
    Near launch bugs have never bothered me. Lag due to poor optimization drives me crazy though.
    GdemamiNyghthowler
  • Viper482Viper482 Member LegendaryPosts: 4,099
    Thousands of fanboys disagree.
    Make MMORPG's Great Again!
  • gervaise1gervaise1 Member EpicPosts: 6,919
    Well one of those - an expansion not even a full launch no less - was released by Zenimax. Enough said.
    GdemamiAlomar
  • AmatheAmathe Member LegendaryPosts: 7,630
    Whether it's a game, a Broadway play, or a new restaurant, flawless launches are hard to come by. There are just so many variables. My sympathies are mostly with the Developers on launch day SNAFUs. But I do expect all hands on deck, and for there to be a quick reaction and correction.
    Sovrathobii

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  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 18,719
    gervaise1 said:
    Well one of those - an expansion not even a full launch no less - was released by Zenimax. Enough said.
    They have a weird system on their public test server which is the place you'd think, where they would identify and deal with the bulk of the problems prior to applying a patch to the live game.

    Despite having prolonged testing periods that last for 4 weeks or more for each quarterly update, they make weekly changes with additions and balancing but they never stop and just let it mature for even a week before they apply the last week's changes to the live server. They always apply one more patch, often with significant changes just before going live - changes that no one ever saw and were never tested on the PTS.

    IDK how many times I spent weeks on the PTS with everything running smoothly more or less only to see the whole thing break when they go live with the changes. It's either those last minute changes or just overall poor modeling of the live service on the PTS that seem to cause these problems the week after patching live.

    I get how some of it is just player volume related since they can never duplicate that load on the PTS but with them it often isn't and they just break an ability or something totally unrelated to volume or load because they made a change and that change was never tested.
    gervaise1GdemamiAlomar
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  • gervaise1gervaise1 Member EpicPosts: 6,919

    Iselin said:


    gervaise1 said:

    Well one of those - an expansion not even a full launch no less - was released by Zenimax. Enough said.


    They have a weird system on their public test server which is the place you'd think, where they would identify and deal with the bulk of the problems prior to applying a patch to the live game.

    Despite having prolonged testing periods that last for 4 weeks or more for each quarterly update, they make weekly changes with additions and balancing but they never stop and just let it mature for even a week before they apply the last week's changes to the live server. They always apply one more patch, often with significant changes just before going live - changes that no one ever saw and were never tested on the PTS.

    IDK how many times I spent weeks on the PTS with everything running smoothly more or less only to see the whole thing break when they go live with the changes. It's either those last minute changes or just overall poor modeling of the live service on the PTS that seem to cause these problems the week after patching live.

    I get how some of it is just player volume related since they can never duplicate that load on the PTS but with them it often isn't and they just break an ability or something totally unrelated to volume or load because they made a change and that change was never tested.



    It leaves - me anyway - with the feeling that the work testers do is "incidental" (ignored is maybe to strong a term). As you say they rarely seem to let things mature / allow for a final polish.
    Gdemami
  • AbimorAbimor Member RarePosts: 915

    gervaise1 said:



    Iselin said:




    gervaise1 said:


    Well one of those - an expansion not even a full launch no less - was released by Zenimax. Enough said.




    They have a weird system on their public test server which is the place you'd think, where they would identify and deal with the bulk of the problems prior to applying a patch to the live game.

    Despite having prolonged testing periods that last for 4 weeks or more for each quarterly update, they make weekly changes with additions and balancing but they never stop and just let it mature for even a week before they apply the last week's changes to the live server. They always apply one more patch, often with significant changes just before going live - changes that no one ever saw and were never tested on the PTS.

    IDK how many times I spent weeks on the PTS with everything running smoothly more or less only to see the whole thing break when they go live with the changes. It's either those last minute changes or just overall poor modeling of the live service on the PTS that seem to cause these problems the week after patching live.

    I get how some of it is just player volume related since they can never duplicate that load on the PTS but with them it often isn't and they just break an ability or something totally unrelated to volume or load because they made a change and that change was never tested.






    It leaves - me anyway - with the feeling that the work testers do is "incidental" (ignored is maybe to strong a term). As you say they rarely seem to let things mature / allow for a final polish.



    They should have know about this ahead of time even with late changes to the game it was unplayable on the test server. I logged in 5 days before launch and there was so much lag and long loading times how did they not know this was going to happen on live? it is being incompetent and using the pandemic as an excuse if it was not ready they should have pushed back the date or at least come out and acknowledge it is going to be rocky. Still no statement from their leadership or about how they can make players whole. I know launch days can be tough but to say they had no idea it was going to be this rough is bs. Even with all the problems they are having their still going 100% with their marketing of the game with out even acknowledging the issues.
    GdemamiAlomar
  • AbimorAbimor Member RarePosts: 915
    The story says open with their communication and links to ESO twitter where in that feed does it say were having issues? it says half way down about the servers coming down once the rest is just the same advertising push going on. My idea of being open with their communication is when I go to website they have posted the issues and their working on them. Finding an article that says their going to stop giving updates about performance improvement like they have been and just mentioning the greymoor issues in one paragraph tells me their is no accountability and what little they had been telling us is going to dry up. Still love the game but really disappointed it the leadership it has.
    GdemamiAlomar
  • gervaise1gervaise1 Member EpicPosts: 6,919
    Abimor said:

    gervaise1 said:



    Iselin said:




    gervaise1 said:


    Well one of those - an expansion not even a full launch no less - was released by Zenimax. Enough said.




    They have a weird system on their public test server which is the place you'd think, where they would identify and deal with the bulk of the problems prior to applying a patch to the live game.

    Despite having prolonged testing periods that last for 4 weeks or more for each quarterly update, they make weekly changes with additions and balancing but they never stop and just let it mature for even a week before they apply the last week's changes to the live server. They always apply one more patch, often with significant changes just before going live - changes that no one ever saw and were never tested on the PTS.

    IDK how many times I spent weeks on the PTS with everything running smoothly more or less only to see the whole thing break when they go live with the changes. It's either those last minute changes or just overall poor modeling of the live service on the PTS that seem to cause these problems the week after patching live.

    I get how some of it is just player volume related since they can never duplicate that load on the PTS but with them it often isn't and they just break an ability or something totally unrelated to volume or load because they made a change and that change was never tested.






    It leaves - me anyway - with the feeling that the work testers do is "incidental" (ignored is maybe to strong a term). As you say they rarely seem to let things mature / allow for a final polish.



    They should have know about this ahead of time even with late changes to the game it was unplayable on the test server. I logged in 5 days before launch and there was so much lag and long loading times how did they not know this was going to happen on live? it is being incompetent and using the pandemic as an excuse if it was not ready they should have pushed back the date or at least come out and acknowledge it is going to be rocky. Still no statement from their leadership or about how they can make players whole. I know launch days can be tough but to say they had no idea it was going to be this rough is bs. Even with all the problems they are having their still going 100% with their marketing of the game with out even acknowledging the issues.
    Agree - I did initially write that ignored when it comes to what testers find. Its not like it was any different last year though ... or the year before ..... or for their previous games. It seems to be something - sadly - in Zenimax's culture / DNA. 
    Gdemami
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 18,719
    gervaise1 said:
    Abimor said:

    gervaise1 said:



    Iselin said:




    gervaise1 said:


    Well one of those - an expansion not even a full launch no less - was released by Zenimax. Enough said.




    They have a weird system on their public test server which is the place you'd think, where they would identify and deal with the bulk of the problems prior to applying a patch to the live game.

    Despite having prolonged testing periods that last for 4 weeks or more for each quarterly update, they make weekly changes with additions and balancing but they never stop and just let it mature for even a week before they apply the last week's changes to the live server. They always apply one more patch, often with significant changes just before going live - changes that no one ever saw and were never tested on the PTS.

    IDK how many times I spent weeks on the PTS with everything running smoothly more or less only to see the whole thing break when they go live with the changes. It's either those last minute changes or just overall poor modeling of the live service on the PTS that seem to cause these problems the week after patching live.

    I get how some of it is just player volume related since they can never duplicate that load on the PTS but with them it often isn't and they just break an ability or something totally unrelated to volume or load because they made a change and that change was never tested.






    It leaves - me anyway - with the feeling that the work testers do is "incidental" (ignored is maybe to strong a term). As you say they rarely seem to let things mature / allow for a final polish.



    They should have know about this ahead of time even with late changes to the game it was unplayable on the test server. I logged in 5 days before launch and there was so much lag and long loading times how did they not know this was going to happen on live? it is being incompetent and using the pandemic as an excuse if it was not ready they should have pushed back the date or at least come out and acknowledge it is going to be rocky. Still no statement from their leadership or about how they can make players whole. I know launch days can be tough but to say they had no idea it was going to be this rough is bs. Even with all the problems they are having their still going 100% with their marketing of the game with out even acknowledging the issues.
    Agree - I did initially write that ignored when it comes to what testers find. Its not like it was any different last year though ... or the year before ..... or for their previous games. It seems to be something - sadly - in Zenimax's culture / DNA. 
    Inherited from Bethesda where things "just work" by the power of magical thinking and fake smiles :)

    Funny how the studios under the Zenimax Inc. umbrella not located in Bethesda, like ID Software for example, have their QA shit so much more together.
    Gdemami
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  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 19,332
    IDK if we can use the term NEED to do better because so far doing a lousy job is rewarding developers.

    The faster a game is released for profit,the faster the business has a lot of money to work with.Right now games are selling on HYPE and marketing alone and NOT on merit.

    Just look at Cyberpunk,already touted as the number 1 game this year and 99% have seen nothing more than one video.Games do not earn merit off one video..EVER.

    I read a lot of Steam reviews,i see a huge swing all over the place in reviews.Personally i look well beyond the "polish" factor,that is something i EXPECT.I played FFXI a LOT of years,a LOT of hours,i NEVER ran into one single crash or game bug.That is not something i can say about the rest of the games.

    Some bugs/glitches i see in games are SOOOO obvious to anyone doing a simple play through,yet they remain in the game years later.This is because devs have a PRIORITY list...sigh

    When is a developer EVER going to put bug fixes ahead of working on new money making content,likely never.The FACT i see in your face bugs that never get fixed tells me the game studios do not care AT ALL,well maybe 1%.

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • GroqstrongGroqstrong Member RarePosts: 825
    At this point i'll accept buggy mmo launches if mmo's just launched. Are we at the 7+ year mark for some games still no launch?
    AmatheKyleranobii
  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 32,780
    edited May 2020
    Amathe said:
    Whether it's a game, a Broadway play, or a new restaurant, flawless launches are hard to come by. There are just so many variables. My sympathies are mostly with the Developers on launch day SNAFUs. But I do expect all hands on deck, and for there to be a quick reaction and correction.

    That's pretty true. I think people have short memories.

    Let see, of the mmorpg's just off the top of my head, that released ..

    no=didn't launch in great shape/I think so = ok to decent as far as I know

    Lineage 2? No/Lord of the Rings Online? I think so/World of Warcraft? No./Age of Conan? No/Warhammer online? No/Aion? I think so/Everquest 2? I think so/Matrix? No/Elder Scrolls Online? No/Black Desert & Blade and soul? I think so/Dungeons and Dragons online? I think so/Mortal Online & Darkfall? No/The Secret World? I think so/Tabula Rasa? No/Star Wars the Old Republic/I think so/Tera? I think so/Vanguard? No/Ryzom? I think so/Pirates of the Caribbean? No/Rift? I think so/Final Fantasy 14? No and then I think so/

    etc There's a lot.

    So "I think so" for me is "as far as I experienced or heard they were ok to fine." With "no" there were notable issues.

    I'm sure people could argue for or against either side but the point is that, with mmorpg's It seems there are a lot of games that launch with issues. I suppose we could keep adding to that list above, I've certainly played others, and we might tip it one way or the other.

    But getting it right at launch doesn't seem to be a given.


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  • AbimorAbimor Member RarePosts: 915
    Sovrath said:
    Amathe said:
    Whether it's a game, a Broadway play, or a new restaurant, flawless launches are hard to come by. There are just so many variables. My sympathies are mostly with the Developers on launch day SNAFUs. But I do expect all hands on deck, and for there to be a quick reaction and correction.

    That's pretty true. I think people have short memories.

    Let see, of the mmorpg's just off the top of my head, that released ..

    no=didn't launch in great shape/I think so = ok to decent as far as I know

    Lineage 2? No/Lord of the Rings Online? I think so/World of Warcraft? No./Age of Conan? No/Warhammer online? No/Aion? I think so/Everquest 2? I think so/Matrix? No/Elder Scrolls Online? No/Black Desert & Blade and soul? I think so/Dungeons and Dragons online? I think so/Mortal Online & Darkfall? No/The Secret World? I think so/Tabula Rasa? No/Star Wars the Old Republic/I think so/Tera? I think so/Vanguard? No/Ryzom? I think so/Pirates of the Caribbean? No/Rift? I think so/Final Fantasy 14? No and then I think so/

    etc There's a lot.

    So "I think so" for me is "as far as I experienced or heard they were ok to fine." With "no" there were notable issues.

    I'm sure people could argue for or against either side but the point is that, with mmorpg's It seems there are a lot of games that launch with issues. I suppose we could keep adding to that list above, I've certainly played others, and we might tip it one way or the other.

    But getting it right at launch doesn't seem to be a given.


    I have no issue with them having launch issues. I think it is hard to tell when something goes live what people can do to break it I can live with that. The giving Greymoor access to everyone is kinda funny and you have to feel for whoever dropped the ball on that one. My two main problems are it was terrible on the pts without the amount of people they would see on launch day and they just glibly went about pretending nothing is wrong and a lack of contrition on their part. The stadia announcement is a good example of this know the temperature of the room before announcing you are going to add more people to something that is broke. The one thing that people can definitely stop saying with all the bugs and issues is that it doesn't feel like an Elder Scrolls Game modders cant fix this one though. I will say this the crazy loading times have improved 100% two days ago loading a zone took about 5-8 minutes today it was about 1 minute per zone. Still a lot of crazy lag in the older zones though, trying to gather resources was a fun adventure today. 
    Gdemami
  • NyghthowlerNyghthowler Member UncommonPosts: 392
    edited May 2020
    Amathe said:
    Whether it's a game, a Broadway play, or a new restaurant, flawless launches are hard to come by. There are just so many variables. My sympathies are mostly with the Developers on launch day SNAFUs. But I do expect all hands on deck, and for there to be a quick reaction and correction.
    Not to be argumentative, but PERFECTION isn't being asked for.
    A game that launches, plays fairly smoothly, and doesn't erase its self from your hard drive seem to me to be fair expectations, though.
    Post edited by Nyghthowler on
    Scot
  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 24,273
    When studios fold before launching, launch MMOs without sufficient content and/or which are buggy messes, I don't think we have to worry about some launch delays. Players are not put off by having to wait an extra week, they are put off by paying for a game which never comes out or comes out in a dreadful state.
  • QSatuQSatu Member UncommonPosts: 1,796
    ESO has bad launches b/c bethesda/Zeni doesn't want to spend more money/reources on servers. They are trying to rewrite the network code for the past year so the game runs better without having to invest more into infrastructure. It's not matter if they can improve thins. it's a matter of how much they want to spend.
  • bronzephishybronzephishy Member UncommonPosts: 64
    An article on a company that Sponsors this site....what’s really..... going on here?
  • Ancient_ExileAncient_Exile Member RarePosts: 1,303
    edited May 2020
    "...The new normal of working from home..."

    The new normal

    Nothing normal about losing most of our rights, having our societies totally transformed, and allowing our economies to be ravaged because of a virus.
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  • etlaretlar Member UncommonPosts: 863

    Amathe said:

    Whether it's a game, a Broadway play, or a new restaurant, flawless launches are hard to come by. There are just so many variables. My sympathies are mostly with the Developers on launch day SNAFUs. But I do expect all hands on deck, and for there to be a quick reaction and correction.



    A Mmorpg launch day, it a bit like ddosing a server, i would exspect it to have some issues, atleast. but to compare wiht a Launch day at a theater, or any such event, seems a bit sought, imho.

    I wish there was a "slightly disagree" button, because i would not give a wtf just for disagreeing, I understand your view, and on launch day i feel for devs too :)

    But on point: In my opinion, we have seen a general decline in quality vs. quantaty (sp)where the primary focus the recent years, seems to be driven heavily by figuring out ways to monetize, instead of how to create worlds.

  • UtinniUtinni Member EpicPosts: 2,209
    Articles like this make it seem as if launching an MMO is easy and they just need to try harder. Do people think its really that simple or is this the typical "I payed money I expect everything perfect!" consumerism garble.
  • UtinniUtinni Member EpicPosts: 2,209

    Ancient_Exile said:

    "...The new normal of working from home..."

    The new normal

    Nothing normal about losing most of our rights, having our societies totally transformed, and allowing our economies to be ravaged because of a virus.



    Damn man where do you live? I haven't lost any rights, let alone most of them.
  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 19,332
    The problem will never change because there is no law to force change.

    Developers only have to work with a VERY small window of 2-4 hours.As long as they get you into the game and you play for a couple hours,you are done,you lose your refund right.

    After those 2 hours are up,you can run into game crashes 500 of them...TOO BAD.Now of course if it was really that bad,Steam for example might still offer refunds which it has done in the past...a few times.

    The reason this will never change is devs will argue that players could finish the entire game and then ask for a refund.

    So what is the answer to fix this problem,as long as $$$$ is involved you can bet that business trumps consumer every time.The only time action is taken is if child safety is involved,otherwise retailer wins and consumers are left frustrated.

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

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