Do you really think that they are selling the game for 500 bucks? You must understand this is a crowd fund pledge right?
Those are preorders. By that definition, every video game for the past 20 years are crowdfunded.
The $500 one includes 4 game codes total, 6 month subscription, a cloth map that sells separately for $115, and 7 beta codes. Games have been selling CE for $100-$200 for years. So that’s not an unreasonable asking price for a preorder, considering the value of what it offers.
If we use that approach, then Pantheon is also not crowd funded because we can easily use mental gymnastics to explain how their pledges are just pre-orders and services rendered for various things.
The entire point of the pledges is to gain money to fund the game. That is why they are sold at higher values.
For example, note that SoL showed how they were spending their money from the pre-order store to give the players understanding about where the money was going.
We shared income reports with our supporters, and shared receipts from our purchases so folks could see where and how money from the pre-order store was being spent. Assets, licenses, lawyers, accountants, servers, website hosting: you name it, we shared it.
My point? Expect renfail to pop up around Christmas for another alpha “phase” presale.
Same thing for years bro...
I am not sure how missing one date validates the premise that the game is a scam.
If that is the case, then every game here is a scam.
It's not a scam.
They missed the date by 3 years... so far.
Par for the course but in Renfail's case I cut him some slack, he really was new to all of this, unlike some others that should have known better.
SoL is not in the same league as the others. As far as I know, it's the only one where the main creators are doing it on their off-time and not drawing salaries. They are also a team that is all openly new.
The money they have raised is minuscule. Now they are not publishing numbers, but I would eat my hat if they raised anything close to a million from Crowdfunding. (My actual guess is that it's closer to 100k than 1M)
From what I see, it's really just a hobby that they are hoping can turn into a legitimate business. Hugely skeptical that this thing will successfully take flight, but I cut them a lot more slack than the other teams based on what I listed above.
SoL isn’t crowdfunded.
You want to reconsider that statement? Or explain?
Stormhaven Studios(SoL) is not a crowdfunded business. It’s an investor funded business.
It's both supported by Crowdfunding and private investment. So is Crowfall, Camelot Unchained, Star Citizen and Pantheon...
Which are considered crowd funded indie studios, even though in some cases the backer money is actually a smaller portion of the funding raised.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Maybe its just me, but I dont think its hard to understand how and why these games differ in development and transparency.
One game is has chosen a much simpler design. The other seems to be increasingly elaborate. Not a knock against either, just different.
The difference in complexity really adds a lot of variables that can impact the development time.
Just watch the most recent dev stream from Saga (from April) and those from Pantheon (2 released today). One is basically a content demo, the other is still developing deep systems and functionality.
Those are preorders. By that definition, every video game for the past 20 years are crowdfunded.
The $500 one includes 4 game codes total, 6 month subscription, a cloth map that sells separately for $115, and 7 beta codes. Games have been selling CE for $100-$200 for years. So that’s not an unreasonable asking price for a preorder, considering the value of what it offers.
It seems to me they are abusing the term "pre-order". Pre-order means I have a product ready or almost ready to go to the market, the buyer pre-orders it and I am bound to deliver it to him. Is Stormhaven studios legally bound to ship a product or issue a refund otherwise? If not, it's a pledge and crowdfunding, not a pre-order. So SoL is a mix of crowdfunding and private investment.
Preorders are refundable prior to release, SoL clearly states no refunds period, clearly a crowd funding effort.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Those are preorders. By that definition, every video game for the past 20 years are crowdfunded.
The $500 one includes 4 game codes total, 6 month subscription, a cloth map that sells separately for $115, and 7 beta codes. Games have been selling CE for $100-$200 for years. So that’s not an unreasonable asking price for a preorder, considering the value of what it offers.
It seems to me they are abusing the term "pre-order". Pre-order means I have a product ready or almost ready to go to the market, the buyer pre-orders it and I am bound to deliver it to him. Is Stormhaven studios legally bound to ship a product or issue a refund otherwise? If not, it's a pledge and crowdfunding, not a pre-order. So SoL is a mix of crowdfunding and private investment.
Preorders are refundable prior to release, SoL clearly states no refunds period, clearly a crowd funding effort.
My point? Expect renfail to pop up around Christmas for another alpha “phase” presale.
Same thing for years bro...
I am not sure how missing one date validates the premise that the game is a scam.
If that is the case, then every game here is a scam.
It's not a scam.
They missed the date by 3 years... so far.
Par for the course but in Renfail's case I cut him some slack, he really was new to all of this, unlike some others that should have known better.
I'm really just interested in squashing the silly misrepresentation that guy puts out.
Ah, a social justice warrior. Who woulda thunk it?
Uhhh... lol.
*chuckle*
Well, you seemed adamant about carrying the cross to fight all the evil you perceived being done by "misinformation". I think the description is quite apt don't you?
I call it ad hominem. And really just stupid.
It isn't a personal attack if it is true. You very clearly stated you were on a crusade to stamp out misinformation. What do you think a social justice warrior does? They fight for the truth of mankind, to stamp out all evil everywhere, to correct the ignorant, to bring light to the darkness, truth and justice to the wicked!
*chuckle*
Weird.
Same here, weird. Judging from the Youtube videos I sometimes watch, SJW's are people being laugh at. Often wearing pink caps, guided by Hollywood. And they use Facebook and Twitter a lot.
Maybe I'm wrong, never really gave it a thought other than the videos are funny
Maybe its just me, but I dont think its hard to understand how and why these games differ in development and transparency.
One game is has chosen a much simpler design. The other seems to be increasingly elaborate. Not a knock against either, just different.
The difference in complexity really adds a lot of variables that can impact the development time.
Just watch the most recent dev stream from Saga (from April) and those from Pantheon (2 released today). One is basically a content demo, the other is still developing deep systems and functionality.
This speaks volumes, This is the first I've seen someone put into words the overall differences before and hit the mark so well..... It's all true.
However my take,
Stormhaven understands their capabilities. Simple in design could even be viewed as boring, BUT they give the world to the players (here do what you want). Simple as in bug free or easily fixable (I know I played it).....It's a world that will work on most computers without coding errors.
Visionary Realms is overly complex. In my opinion their over their head, a recipe for disaster. They blindsided the community by keying on graphics that puts a HUGE delay on the game, where people expected simple much like what Stormhaven is actually doing.
Both companies are not looking for input from anyone. infact their is a topic about players input in the Pub Section right now. But Visionary realms could have used simple coding design Yet add their features too.
I've been saying all along Pantheon will be a coding disaster EVEN YEARS AFTER RELEASE.
Maybe its just me, but I dont think its hard to understand how and why these games differ in development and transparency.
One game is has chosen a much simpler design. The other seems to be increasingly elaborate. Not a knock against either, just different.
The difference in complexity really adds a lot of variables that can impact the development time.
Just watch the most recent dev stream from Saga (from April) and those from Pantheon (2 released today). One is basically a content demo, the other is still developing deep systems and functionality.
Agreed, which is why I think that it is crucial that the more complex game be organized, which is why the simpler one being more organized in their development is rather... interesting.
It is why I really dislike development with more modern less structured development processes. I have seen them often do more harm than good, especially in various game development projects.
I think that SoL started out thinking this would be a lot easier than they expected and so became overly confident in their dates. From what I have seen so far, it appears they have made some advances in this area and became more structured.
This statement is wrong on many levels but I cannot address it without going on a big off-topic- scratch that, off-site tangent. Are you a software developer?
Appeal to authority is your first start here? Why am I not surprised?
Would it matter if I had over 20 years experience in software development, network engineering, and data base systems developing various level projects on multiple technologies using techniques from structured development methods to that of more modern methods?
Would that make my argument anymore valid? Or were you hoping to use an appeal to authority?
Oh, and don't act like this topic is a cut and dry issue. There is a lot of contention with development methodologies of today vs the past. I just happen to be one who dislikes modern development practices and can show evidence of where these practices have contributed to failed development.
Maybe its just me, but I dont think its hard to understand how and why these games differ in development and transparency.
One game is has chosen a much simpler design. The other seems to be increasingly elaborate. Not a knock against either, just different.
The difference in complexity really adds a lot of variables that can impact the development time.
Just watch the most recent dev stream from Saga (from April) and those from Pantheon (2 released today). One is basically a content demo, the other is still developing deep systems and functionality.
Yep - this is basically what I stated on page 2 of this thread (I dont blame anyone for not reading through this thread)
But yep - exactly its apples and oranges in terms of depth and complexity
That however does not excuse the disorganization of Pantheon. Just because a project has more depth, doesn't mean they can excuse the process of evaluating requirements and establishing a proper process to a goal.
Well, I have lost interest with SoL after watching Stage 3 Alpha footage.
Basically, there is no longer the traditional naked corpse run similar to EQ. When you die, you keep everything on you except your inventory (ie bag items). So you keep all your equipped gear and a bag is left where you died that contains those inventory items.
There is also some negatives like a debuff that needs to be healed at a camp, and also you are unable to sell, trade, etc... until you either... go back and get your bag of inventory or "choose" to dismiss your inventory. You can still however continue to gain in skills, do combat, etc...
I don't care for this as it removes all danger from the game. A game that has no experience and has such a light penalty has no real... fear in play. With this system, I would gear up (or rather go with empty/worthless inventory) when I was exploring, or trying dangerous things knowing I can easily dismiss the need to recover.
Exploration just got boring to me. All the fear I had in EQ, the danger in exploring, the risk vs reward. Yeah, not so much.
So, this game is also out for me. Thankfully I didn't spend any money on it.
It appears Pantheon may have more of a death penalty than SoL, providing they stick to naked corpse runs, but honestly.. few players today desire that, guess I am out of time and gaming in this genre is really dead to me. /shrug
Appeal to authority is your first start here? Why am I not surprised?
You assumed my intentions wrong. I wanted to see if this comes from a developer or not, because I would answer differently to someone with soft dev/project management experience using proper terminology, and using layman's terms otherwise. I also just wanted to know for my benefit if this is the belief of another soft dev or not. Can you guess what fallacy this is, in your fancy talk?
But yes, I believe that having at least some experience in an environment with well defined project management (soft dev or otherwise) makes a huge difference when talking about such specialized and technical issues. And I have seen modern project management methods being misused and then slandered for all the wrong reasons and it makes me sad.
Well, I have lost interest with SoL after watching Stage 3 Alpha footage.
Basically, there is no longer the traditional naked corpse run similar to EQ. When you die, you keep everything on you except your inventory (ie bag items). So you keep all your equipped gear and a bag is left where you died that contains those inventory items.
There is also some negatives like a debuff that needs to be healed at a camp, and also you are unable to sell, trade, etc... until you either... go back and get your bag of inventory or "choose" to dismiss your inventory. You can still however continue to gain in skills, do combat, etc...
I don't care for this as it removes all danger from the game. A game that has no experience and has such a light penalty has no real... fear in play. With this system, I would gear up (or rather go with empty/worthless inventory) when I was exploring, or trying dangerous things knowing I can easily dismiss the need to recover.
Exploration just got boring to me. All the fear I had in EQ, the danger in exploring, the risk vs reward. Yeah, not so much.
So, this game is also out for me. Thankfully I didn't spend any money on it.
It appears Pantheon may have more of a death penalty than SoL, providing they stick to naked corpse runs, but honestly.. few players today desire that, guess I am out of time and gaming in this genre is really dead to me. /shrug
Oh well.
I watched around 40 minutes and I intend to watch more. I love how much reading is involved and talking and responding to NPCs . I loved this part because it is like Everquest even had that guy attack the NPC and die like the famous 'hail' and attack bound to 'a' in EQ.
What he said about crafting and stuff about Vanguard also gladdened my heart but it is disappointing the stuff you pointed out about the death penalty. No sting at all it seems.
Well, I have lost interest with SoL after watching Stage 3 Alpha footage.
Basically, there is no longer the traditional naked corpse run similar to EQ. When you die, you keep everything on you except your inventory (ie bag items). So you keep all your equipped gear and a bag is left where you died that contains those inventory items.
There is also some negatives like a debuff that needs to be healed at a camp, and also you are unable to sell, trade, etc... until you either... go back and get your bag of inventory or "choose" to dismiss your inventory. You can still however continue to gain in skills, do combat, etc...
I don't care for this as it removes all danger from the game. A game that has no experience and has such a light penalty has no real... fear in play. With this system, I would gear up (or rather go with empty/worthless inventory) when I was exploring, or trying dangerous things knowing I can easily dismiss the need to recover.
Exploration just got boring to me. All the fear I had in EQ, the danger in exploring, the risk vs reward. Yeah, not so much.
So, this game is also out for me. Thankfully I didn't spend any money on it.
It appears Pantheon may have more of a death penalty than SoL, providing they stick to naked corpse runs, but honestly.. few players today desire that, guess I am out of time and gaming in this genre is really dead to me. /shrug
Oh well.
So, what you are indirectly saying is not having naked corpse runs is a ”poor design decision?" Lulz.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Well, I have lost interest with SoL after watching Stage 3 Alpha footage.
Basically, there is no longer the traditional naked corpse run similar to EQ. When you die, you keep everything on you except your inventory (ie bag items). So you keep all your equipped gear and a bag is left where you died that contains those inventory items.
There is also some negatives like a debuff that needs to be healed at a camp, and also you are unable to sell, trade, etc... until you either... go back and get your bag of inventory or "choose" to dismiss your inventory. You can still however continue to gain in skills, do combat, etc...
I don't care for this as it removes all danger from the game. A game that has no experience and has such a light penalty has no real... fear in play. With this system, I would gear up (or rather go with empty/worthless inventory) when I was exploring, or trying dangerous things knowing I can easily dismiss the need to recover.
Exploration just got boring to me. All the fear I had in EQ, the danger in exploring, the risk vs reward. Yeah, not so much.
So, this game is also out for me. Thankfully I didn't spend any money on it.
It appears Pantheon may have more of a death penalty than SoL, providing they stick to naked corpse runs, but honestly.. few players today desire that, guess I am out of time and gaming in this genre is really dead to me. /shrug
Oh well.
So, what you are indirectly saying is not having naked corpse runs is a ”poor design decision?" Lulz.
Your name isn't Harvey by chance?
Not at all. I am saying I do not like that form of design. Notice how I merely said the game is no longer in my interest? I didn't throw a tantrum, call the developer a poor designer and lament about how I ma being attacked if he doesn't worship my way of thinking?
Nice straw man though, but hey... you knew you had nothing unless you manufactured it. Though I am sure it did wonders for your self esteem!
If theirs a huge gap between releases and Saga of Lucima is first..... I think most of you old schoolers will be playing Sol, regardless of what you say now.
I say this in a humble way..... Their is not much else to play and Sol is definitely Old School.
A lot has changed since I played 8 months ago. It was a VERY SIMPLE town that looked abandon dark and crud with only an active Inn. If they add NPC's to this video, it will look alive....... Changes in 8 months shows they are working hard !
If theirs a huge gap between releases and Saga of Lucima is first..... I think most of you old schoolers will be playing Sol, regardless of what you say now.
I say this in a humble way..... Their is not much else to play and Sol is definitely Old School.
A lot has changed since I played 8 months ago. It was a VERY SIMPLE town that looked abandon dark and crud with only an active Inn. If they add NPC's to this video, it will look alive....... Changes in 8 months shows they are working hard !
I compromised for decades of mainstreaming of games, I continued to play them, watching them slowly turn into cash grabs and caterings to the "entertainment" crowd.
No more. I would rather not play at all then "compromise" again. More power to those who will, like I said, that feature is a deal breaker for me, I am no longer interested. /shrug
If theirs a huge gap between releases and Saga of Lucima is first..... I think most of you old schoolers will be playing Sol, regardless of what you say now.
I say this in a humble way..... Their is not much else to play and Sol is definitely Old School.
A lot has changed since I played 8 months ago. It was a VERY SIMPLE town that looked abandon dark and crud with only an active Inn. If they add NPC's to this video, it will look alive....... Changes in 8 months shows they are working hard !
I compromised for decades of mainstreaming of games, I continued to play them, watching them slowly turn into cash grabs and caterings to the "entertainment" crowd.
No more. I would rather not play at all then "compromise" again. More power to those who will, like I said, that feature is a deal breaker for me, I am no longer interested. /shrug
Uh oh... I anticipate @kyleran making a Watchman analogy!
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Comments
The entire point of the pledges is to gain money to fund the game. That is why they are sold at higher values.
For example, note that SoL showed how they were spending their money from the pre-order store to give the players understanding about where the money was going.
https://sagaoflucimia.com/forums/index.php?threads/development-stage-two.974/#post-6019
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
It appears you have no point then. Carry on!
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
One game is has chosen a much simpler design. The other seems to be increasingly elaborate. Not a knock against either, just different.
The difference in complexity really adds a lot of variables that can impact the development time.
Just watch the most recent dev stream from Saga (from April) and those from Pantheon (2 released today). One is basically a content demo, the other is still developing deep systems and functionality.
It's like some people here don't even lift, bro.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Judging from the Youtube videos I sometimes watch, SJW's are people being laugh at. Often wearing pink caps, guided by Hollywood. And they use Facebook and Twitter a lot.
Maybe I'm wrong, never really gave it a thought other than the videos are funny
This is the first I've seen someone put into words the overall differences before and hit the mark so well..... It's all true.
However my take,
Stormhaven understands their capabilities. Simple in design could even be viewed as boring, BUT they give the world to the players (here do what you want). Simple as in bug free or easily fixable (I know I played it).....It's a world that will work on most computers without coding errors.
Visionary Realms is overly complex. In my opinion their over their head, a recipe for disaster. They blindsided the community by keying on graphics that puts a HUGE delay on the game, where people expected simple much like what Stormhaven is actually doing.
Both companies are not looking for input from anyone. infact their is a topic about players input in the Pub Section right now. But Visionary realms could have used simple coding design Yet add their features too.
I've been saying all along Pantheon will be a coding disaster EVEN YEARS AFTER RELEASE.
Would it matter if I had over 20 years experience in software development, network engineering, and data base systems developing various level projects on multiple technologies using techniques from structured development methods to that of more modern methods?
Would that make my argument anymore valid? Or were you hoping to use an appeal to authority?
Oh, and don't act like this topic is a cut and dry issue. There is a lot of contention with development methodologies of today vs the past. I just happen to be one who dislikes modern development practices and can show evidence of where these practices have contributed to failed development.
Basically, there is no longer the traditional naked corpse run similar to EQ. When you die, you keep everything on you except your inventory (ie bag items). So you keep all your equipped gear and a bag is left where you died that contains those inventory items.
There is also some negatives like a debuff that needs to be healed at a camp, and also you are unable to sell, trade, etc... until you either... go back and get your bag of inventory or "choose" to dismiss your inventory. You can still however continue to gain in skills, do combat, etc...
I don't care for this as it removes all danger from the game. A game that has no experience and has such a light penalty has no real... fear in play. With this system, I would gear up (or rather go with empty/worthless inventory) when I was exploring, or trying dangerous things knowing I can easily dismiss the need to recover.
Exploration just got boring to me. All the fear I had in EQ, the danger in exploring, the risk vs reward. Yeah, not so much.
So, this game is also out for me. Thankfully I didn't spend any money on it.
It appears Pantheon may have more of a death penalty than SoL, providing they stick to naked corpse runs, but honestly.. few players today desire that, guess I am out of time and gaming in this genre is really dead to me. /shrug
Oh well.
What he said about crafting and stuff about Vanguard also gladdened my heart but it is disappointing the stuff you pointed out about the death penalty. No sting at all it seems.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
Your name isn't Harvey by chance?
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Nice straw man though, but hey... you knew you had nothing unless you manufactured it. Though I am sure it did wonders for your self esteem!
I say this in a humble way..... Their is not much else to play and Sol is definitely Old School.
A lot has changed since I played 8 months ago. It was a VERY SIMPLE town that looked abandon dark and crud with only an active Inn. If they add NPC's to this video, it will look alive....... Changes in 8 months shows they are working hard !
No more. I would rather not play at all then "compromise" again. More power to those who will, like I said, that feature is a deal breaker for me, I am no longer interested. /shrug
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018