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Apple makes its move away from x86 official

QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 25,483
https://www.anandtech.com/show/15875/apple-lays-out-plans-to-transition-macs-from-x86-to-apple-socs
https://techreport.com/featured/3471264/apple-arm-switch-official-2020/

It had been rumored for years that Apple was going to drop x86 and use ARM cores instead for Mac devices.  Once Apple had some high-performance CPU cores for their iOS devices, why did they need to keep buying Intel CPUs for a Mac?  Today, they made it official.  Well, almost:  Apple didn't say that they were going to use ARM, but it's hard to imagine that it could be anything else.

The transition won't be ideal, of course.  Switching CPU architectures never is.  But Apple is hoping for some longer term benefits, such as not having to pay whatever Intel decides to charge.  This also gives them the ability to put whatever custom things into their silicon that they want and have full OS support.  And, of course, it creates the possibility of greatly lessening the differences between iOS and Mac OS, making it easier to move back and forth between the two.

For consumers, this probably means the end of being able to buy a Mac and then dual boot Windows.  If you're hoping to run arbitrary Windows software on a Mac, including but not limited to games, that's probably going not going to work anymore.  Macs never were ideal for gaming, of course, but some people liked the option to dual boot so that anything that required Windows would at least run.

Apple says that the first consumer Mac devices to use Apple CPUs will be out later this year, but it will take two years for a full transition.  Presumably, the Mac Pro will be the last thing.  Apple's experience at CPU design for iPhones doesn't need to scale up very far to power a Mac Mini, but a Mac Pro with a huge CPU and a ton of GPU performance is a much larger leap.

Comments

  • botrytisbotrytis Member RarePosts: 3,363
    I remember when they switched to Intel from their previous processors and at one point, Apple did not update the OS any more as well as not support the previous version machines. People really complained.

    This is all about control and maximum profit for Apple only.
    Ozmodan


  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 18,719
    botrytis said:
    I remember when they switched to Intel from their previous processors and at one point, Apple did not update the OS any more as well as not support the previous version machines. People really complained.

    This is all about control and maximum profit for Apple only.
    I still miss the old Motorola 6502 8-bit processor lol. I taught myself programming in Assembly and Basic on that simple little thing that was in the Apple II, Atari 800 and Commodore 64.

    The good old days :) 
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  • RidelynnRidelynn Member EpicPosts: 7,383
    I think... cross compatibility with the Windows environment has slowly taken a back seat to cross compatibility with mobile platforms. And Apple happens to have a rather large mobile platform. 

    The OS itself (and by extension, the hardware it runs on) is becoming more and more irrelevant. 

    The only shocking part about this announcement is that it took this long to occur.
    Ozmodan
  • Sal1Sal1 Member UncommonPosts: 430
    Are they gonna use an in house built variation of the ARM CPU? I know they build CPU's for there phones but they haven't built one for there PC's in a while right?
  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 25,483
    Sal1 said:
    Are they gonna use an in house built variation of the ARM CPU? I know they build CPU's for there phones but they haven't built one for there PC's in a while right?
    I haven't seen them officially announce that they'll do so.  However, considering that:

    1)  Apple has had a lot of success at building custom ARM cores,
    2)  Apple is literally the only vendor who wants to build a high-performance desktop on ARM cores,
    3)  Apple loves to customize things to make them incompatible with anything else, and
    4)  Apple loves to do weird things so that they'll have some sort of exclusive feature,

    it would be shocking if they don't build their own custom CPU cores.  Having their own custom SoC is a given, but it's possible to do that with off the shelf ARM cores--which is what most other vendors that use ARM cores will do.  I don't think that even the Cortex X1 would be tempting for Apple to use.
    Ozmodan
  • ChildoftheShadowsChildoftheShadows Member EpicPosts: 2,193
    They ran the entire os11 demo on the a12z, the same chip in the current iPad Pro. Of course they didn’t disclose that until after they mentioned the transition. 

    What interested me was the way they were making the transition. They built Xcode to allow for compiling to a universal binary (works with their chip and intel) , Rosetta 2 that runs OS X software on their chip - they demoed maya running on  that with a rather large scene, and they have their own vm they stated making it easy to run “others” and gave Linux apps as an example but I do wonder if that will work for the windows apps as well.

    All while running on an iPad Pro chip. 

    Oh and of course it runs iOS Apps perfectly. 
  • CleffyCleffy Member RarePosts: 6,413
    Apple confirms it will make the Mac irrelevant again. 
    Ozmodan
  • OzmodanOzmodan Member EpicPosts: 9,726
    So basically Apple computers will be a standing joke when compared to Intel/AMD based PC's and they will still be way overpriced.  ARM CPUs are just technically not competitive and I think Apple's decision is braindead stupid.
  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 25,483
    Ozmodan said:
    So basically Apple computers will be a standing joke when compared to Intel/AMD based PC's and they will still be way overpriced.  ARM CPUs are just technically not competitive and I think Apple's decision is braindead stupid.
    There's no reason why ARM CPUs can't be as fast as x86.  You can design CPU cores for higher performance at the expensive of higher power consumption, or for lower power consumption at the expense of lower performance.  Desktops are the main situation where high power consumption is okay, and laptops and servers also allow considerably higher power consumption per core than cell phones and many embedded use cases.  As a result, many x86 CPUs have historically been designed for high performance, while ARM CPUs generally have not been.  But now that Apple is going to put ARM cores into desktops and workstations, they probably will design them for high performance.

    The reason that the development kits used a phone processor is that that is what was readily available.  Apple will have higher performance CPUs available by the time the real consumer desktops launch.
    Ozmodan
  • ChildoftheShadowsChildoftheShadows Member EpicPosts: 2,193
    Ozmodan said:
    So basically Apple computers will be a standing joke when compared to Intel/AMD based PC's and they will still be way overpriced.  ARM CPUs are just technically not competitive and I think Apple's decision is braindead stupid.
    The a12 in the ipad pro is incredibly powerful and it's passive cooled. Like I said, they ran the entire demo for Mac OS11 on one and even ran Maya, a powerful 3D modeling program, on it without it even being native and it still ran flawlessly.

    I don't think Apple would make the switch if they weren't capable of matching intel, but I believe they'll do better.
    SovrathOzmodan
  • maskedweaselmaskedweasel Member LegendaryPosts: 12,195
    Ozmodan said:
    So basically Apple computers will be a standing joke when compared to Intel/AMD based PC's and they will still be way overpriced.  ARM CPUs are just technically not competitive and I think Apple's decision is braindead stupid.
    The a12 in the ipad pro is incredibly powerful and it's passive cooled. Like I said, they ran the entire demo for Mac OS11 on one and even ran Maya, a powerful 3D modeling program, on it without it even being native and it still ran flawlessly.

    I don't think Apple would make the switch if they weren't capable of matching intel, but I believe they'll do better.
    It's unlikely they will, the A12 is powerful but as of yet we haven't seen an ARM CPU that can compete with the high end PC CPUs. But in the end, it likely won't matter all that much. 

    In terms of games, we've hit the point where you don't have to have a PC to play games anymore, cloud gaming has kind of fixed that issue. 



  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 32,780
    Ozmodan said:
    So basically Apple computers will be a standing joke when compared to Intel/AMD based PC's and they will still be way overpriced.  ARM CPUs are just technically not competitive and I think Apple's decision is braindead stupid.
    The a12 in the ipad pro is incredibly powerful and it's passive cooled. Like I said, they ran the entire demo for Mac OS11 on one and even ran Maya, a powerful 3D modeling program, on it without it even being native and it still ran flawlessly.

    I don't think Apple would make the switch if they weren't capable of matching intel, but I believe they'll do better.
    It's unlikely they will, the A12 is powerful but as of yet we haven't seen an ARM CPU that can compete with the high end PC CPUs. But in the end, it likely won't matter all that much. 

    In terms of games, we've hit the point where you don't have to have a PC to play games anymore, cloud gaming has kind of fixed that issue. 
    It has? 

    Aren't people complaining of latency and there's even a "locked at 30 frames per second" bit about Elder Scrolls Online.


    Ozmodan
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  • maskedweaselmaskedweasel Member LegendaryPosts: 12,195
    Sovrath said:
    Ozmodan said:
    So basically Apple computers will be a standing joke when compared to Intel/AMD based PC's and they will still be way overpriced.  ARM CPUs are just technically not competitive and I think Apple's decision is braindead stupid.
    The a12 in the ipad pro is incredibly powerful and it's passive cooled. Like I said, they ran the entire demo for Mac OS11 on one and even ran Maya, a powerful 3D modeling program, on it without it even being native and it still ran flawlessly.

    I don't think Apple would make the switch if they weren't capable of matching intel, but I believe they'll do better.
    It's unlikely they will, the A12 is powerful but as of yet we haven't seen an ARM CPU that can compete with the high end PC CPUs. But in the end, it likely won't matter all that much. 

    In terms of games, we've hit the point where you don't have to have a PC to play games anymore, cloud gaming has kind of fixed that issue. 
    It has? 

    Aren't people complaining of latency and there's even a "locked at 30 frames per second" bit about Elder Scrolls Online.


    But that 30FPS issue is strictly with Stadia. The other streaming services don't have an FPS lock. Latency is a complicated thing to calculate and can be determined by the services you use. Sure there are still some pitfalls, such as connection stability and data caps for some people, but its a case by case situation. 

    I use cloud gaming almost exclusively these days, but I have a 1GBPS fiber connection and no data cap. Others may not be so lucky at the moment, but it's only a matter of time before data caps go away. 

    Not trying to derail. Just saying that, if you can't play something on a Mac you don't need to dual boot, you can use a cloud streaming service and in many cases get as good or better performance than one would expect.
    Ozmodan



  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 25,483
    Ozmodan said:
    So basically Apple computers will be a standing joke when compared to Intel/AMD based PC's and they will still be way overpriced.  ARM CPUs are just technically not competitive and I think Apple's decision is braindead stupid.
    The a12 in the ipad pro is incredibly powerful and it's passive cooled. Like I said, they ran the entire demo for Mac OS11 on one and even ran Maya, a powerful 3D modeling program, on it without it even being native and it still ran flawlessly.

    I don't think Apple would make the switch if they weren't capable of matching intel, but I believe they'll do better.
    The A12 is quite powerful for a tablet chip.  For a desktop part, it would be decidedly low end.  But much of that gap can be made up just by allowing designers to assume much higher power consumption.

    I don't think that an ARM-based iMac will often match the top x86 CPUs with the same number of cores, but neither do I think that it needs to.  If it offers 90% of the performance of a high end Windows desktop, that's good enough, in part because it's impractical to make a clean comparison.  Something like 30% wouldn't be good enough, but the A12 is already far above that.
  • OzmodanOzmodan Member EpicPosts: 9,726
    Quizzical said:
    Ozmodan said:
    So basically Apple computers will be a standing joke when compared to Intel/AMD based PC's and they will still be way overpriced.  ARM CPUs are just technically not competitive and I think Apple's decision is braindead stupid.
    The a12 in the ipad pro is incredibly powerful and it's passive cooled. Like I said, they ran the entire demo for Mac OS11 on one and even ran Maya, a powerful 3D modeling program, on it without it even being native and it still ran flawlessly.

    I don't think Apple would make the switch if they weren't capable of matching intel, but I believe they'll do better.
    The A12 is quite powerful for a tablet chip.  For a desktop part, it would be decidedly low end.  But much of that gap can be made up just by allowing designers to assume much higher power consumption.

    I don't think that an ARM-based iMac will often match the top x86 CPUs with the same number of cores, but neither do I think that it needs to.  If it offers 90% of the performance of a high end Windows desktop, that's good enough, in part because it's impractical to make a clean comparison.  Something like 30% wouldn't be good enough, but the A12 is already far above that.
    Sorry I just basically have to disagree.  I wish Apple the best of luck, but I will just laugh at any fool stupid enough to buy an ARM based Apple PC.  Anyone who thinks Apple can come up with a chip in 2 years that has taken decades of design work from Intel and AMD, I have a bridge to sell you!

  • OzmodanOzmodan Member EpicPosts: 9,726
    Sovrath said:
    Ozmodan said:
    So basically Apple computers will be a standing joke when compared to Intel/AMD based PC's and they will still be way overpriced.  ARM CPUs are just technically not competitive and I think Apple's decision is braindead stupid.
    The a12 in the ipad pro is incredibly powerful and it's passive cooled. Like I said, they ran the entire demo for Mac OS11 on one and even ran Maya, a powerful 3D modeling program, on it without it even being native and it still ran flawlessly.

    I don't think Apple would make the switch if they weren't capable of matching intel, but I believe they'll do better.
    It's unlikely they will, the A12 is powerful but as of yet we haven't seen an ARM CPU that can compete with the high end PC CPUs. But in the end, it likely won't matter all that much. 

    In terms of games, we've hit the point where you don't have to have a PC to play games anymore, cloud gaming has kind of fixed that issue. 
    It has? 

    Aren't people complaining of latency and there's even a "locked at 30 frames per second" bit about Elder Scrolls Online.


    But that 30FPS issue is strictly with Stadia. The other streaming services don't have an FPS lock. Latency is a complicated thing to calculate and can be determined by the services you use. Sure there are still some pitfalls, such as connection stability and data caps for some people, but its a case by case situation. 

    I use cloud gaming almost exclusively these days, but I have a 1GBPS fiber connection and no data cap. Others may not be so lucky at the moment, but it's only a matter of time before data caps go away. 

    Not trying to derail. Just saying that, if you can't play something on a Mac you don't need to dual boot, you can use a cloud streaming service and in many cases get as good or better performance than one would expect.
    Very few gamers have access to a fiber connection and I don't know of any large ISP actively expending their fiber network since Google stopped.  Most people won't get much better than the 30 FPS even with another service other than Stadia mainly because of the their internet connection.    While many ISPs advertise 100mb speed, the end user just gets a small percentage of that due to too many users on the line.
    maskedweasel
  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 25,483
    Ozmodan said:
    Quizzical said:
    Ozmodan said:
    So basically Apple computers will be a standing joke when compared to Intel/AMD based PC's and they will still be way overpriced.  ARM CPUs are just technically not competitive and I think Apple's decision is braindead stupid.
    The a12 in the ipad pro is incredibly powerful and it's passive cooled. Like I said, they ran the entire demo for Mac OS11 on one and even ran Maya, a powerful 3D modeling program, on it without it even being native and it still ran flawlessly.

    I don't think Apple would make the switch if they weren't capable of matching intel, but I believe they'll do better.
    The A12 is quite powerful for a tablet chip.  For a desktop part, it would be decidedly low end.  But much of that gap can be made up just by allowing designers to assume much higher power consumption.

    I don't think that an ARM-based iMac will often match the top x86 CPUs with the same number of cores, but neither do I think that it needs to.  If it offers 90% of the performance of a high end Windows desktop, that's good enough, in part because it's impractical to make a clean comparison.  Something like 30% wouldn't be good enough, but the A12 is already far above that.
    Sorry I just basically have to disagree.  I wish Apple the best of luck, but I will just laugh at any fool stupid enough to buy an ARM based Apple PC.  Anyone who thinks Apple can come up with a chip in 2 years that has taken decades of design work from Intel and AMD, I have a bridge to sell you!

    Well of course Apple can't do it in just two years.  This effort surely started several years ago, and they're only making it official just now.
    SovrathChildoftheShadows
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