Features, Content, Bad Play and Plain Old Annoyances

Amathe · August 2020

Ok suppose you are out adventuring and you come to a bridge. It's snowing. You try to cross the bridge and you die. Why? Because you had not accumulated and equipped enough ice protection crystal thingies.

So what would you call that. Crystals as a feature (a system to be learned and mastered)?

Or is it content (collecting crystals).

Just garden variety bad play for not equipping protective items?

Or lastly just a pain in the ass. More shite to have to gather or face a stop to your desired game play?

I can think of some games in development that keep touting systems they have that distinguish them in some way, that just don't sound fun at all unless you like doing stuff to be doing stuff.

Iselin · August 2020

Definitely PITA for me.

I know, I know, I'm being disloyal to fellow boomers but a lot of old MMO annoyances that got the death they deserved (although apparently not perma-death since rezzing them seems to be a thing these days, especially for KS MMOs) I don't want anything to do with.

I play these games to progress and build my characters, hopefully in creative ways, and then do interesting and challenging content with them. Things that get in my way of doing that are definitely PITAs.

Sovrath · August 2020

While there is a bit of "silliness" to Pantheon's system (which I'm thinking is what you are referencing) I'm ok with it.

Even if it was "more real" and you slipped on the ice because you didn't have the correct gear on your feet I'd be fine with it.

To me, that's part of the game play.

Amathe · August 2020

Maybe players have a patience battery that weakens over time, and maybe mine is overtaxed. But things like I want to enter the enchanted forest, but first I need faction with the magic squirrels, who want golden chestnuts, which requires a +5 nutcracker, blah blah. Just layer after layer of TASKS masquerading as content pretending to be fun.

Sovrath · August 2020

Amathe said:

Maybe players have a patience battery that weakens over time, and maybe mine is overtaxed. But things like I want to enter the enchanted forest, but first I need faction with the magic squirrels, who want golden chestnuts, which requires a +5 nutcracker, blah blah. Just layer after layer of TASKS masquerading as content pretending to be fun.

Well, that's really only one example and they are not all the same.

Would I want to faction with the magic squirrels? (presuming I wanted to play a game with magic squirrels. Which I don't.)

That would depends on what I would have to do.

A real example in Lord of the Rings Online. I wanted a Lothlorien white horse. gaining faction with Lothlorien was tedious and dull. So much so, I don't' know if I could ever do it again.

Just like I KNOW I can't do Hytbolt again.

But, If entering the magic forest required a special elixer and I needed to find and create (or hire someone to create) that elixer? Sure. That could be fun.

Same game, different example, I sort of liked having to raise my radiance in order to pass by those statues. That worked for me. The rest of their system I didn't quite like.

For me it just depends on how it's presented.

Wizardry · August 2020

I have basically 2 ideals.
1 As long as it makes sense i am ok with just about anything.
2 I am not in favor of anything added or removed for balancing reasons.

A prime example is survival ideas,they make sense,you are a living character that should have to eat drink and survive.However there is a fine line between realism,making sense and being over the top cumbersome.
So if the time period is ancient as many rpgs are you might have to expect to carry loads of stuff with a horse and wagon/carriage.Often times the weight allowance is ridiculous like a horse only able to carry a few hundred pounds or having to eat/drink enough for 20 people in an hour.

So it is a combination of making sense and common sense.Typically,like almost always devs appear to have no clue at all,no common sense but i'll cut them some slack and assume they simply designed a crap game because it works for them.I feel that is the entire game industry in a nutshell,devs just make games that work for THEM not us.

AlBQuirky · August 2020

Amathe said:

Maybe players have a patience battery that weakens over time, and maybe mine is overtaxed. But things like I want to enter the enchanted forest, but first I need faction with the magic squirrels, who want golden chestnuts, which requires a +5 nutcracker, blah blah. Just layer after layer of TASKS masquerading as content pretending to be fun.

Isn't that gaming/RPGs in general?

AlBQuirky · August 2020

Sovrath said:

Amathe said:

Maybe players have a patience battery that weakens over time, and maybe mine is overtaxed. But things like I want to enter the enchanted forest, but first I need faction with the magic squirrels, who want golden chestnuts, which requires a +5 nutcracker, blah blah. Just layer after layer of TASKS masquerading as content pretending to be fun.

Well, that's really only one example and they are not all the same.

Would I want to faction with the magic squirrels? (presuming I wanted to play a game with magic squirrels. Which I don't.)

That would depends on what I would have to do.

A real example in Lord of the Rings Online. I wanted a Lothlorien white horse. gaining faction with Lothlorien was tedious and dull. So much so, I don't' know if I could ever do it again.

Just like I KNOW I can't do Hytbolt again.

But, If entering the magic forest required a special elixer and I needed to find and create (or hire someone to create) that elixer? Sure. That could be fun.

Same game, different example, I sort of liked having to raise my radiance in order to pass by those statues. That worked for me. The rest of their system I didn't quite like.

For me it just depends on how it's presented.

Your last line sums it up, nicely

If a player is rolling their eyes and exasperating loudly, then whatever "it" is, is failing to entertain. If a player doesn't mind, or even looks forward to "it", then you've done well

Neanderthal · August 2020

Amathe said:

Maybe players have a patience battery that weakens over time, and maybe mine is overtaxed. But things like I want to enter the enchanted forest, but first I need faction with the magic squirrels, who want golden chestnuts, which requires a +5 nutcracker, blah blah. Just layer after layer of TASKS masquerading as content pretending to be fun.

That strikes a chord with me. I do tend to hate stuff like that. Especially if it's something essential to your character that you basically have to do which is really just a series of tedious chores.

On a related note, the way most modern games handle dropped items for quests really annoys me. Say there is a quest to collect ten rhino horns. You where just killing rhinos because the quest NPC first wanted you to collect their tails. They didn't drop horns because you didn't have that quest yet. You have to be given the quest by the NPC before you can collect the item in question.

Stuff like that really annoys me.

Theocritus · August 2020

It seems some of these newer single player survival games are trying to use the tedious gameplay....You have to monitor your hunger, thirst, and body temperature levels or you will die. While it sounds somewhat realistic, it makes for awful gameplay.

Mendel · August 2020

Theocritus said:

It seems some of these newer single player survival games are trying to use the tedious gameplay....You have to monitor your hunger, thirst, and body temperature levels or you will die. While it sounds somewhat realistic, it makes for awful gameplay.

That's the survival genre in a nutshell.

Sovrath · August 2020

AlBQuirky said:

Sovrath said:

Amathe said:

Maybe players have a patience battery that weakens over time, and maybe mine is overtaxed. But things like I want to enter the enchanted forest, but first I need faction with the magic squirrels, who want golden chestnuts, which requires a +5 nutcracker, blah blah. Just layer after layer of TASKS masquerading as content pretending to be fun.

Well, that's really only one example and they are not all the same.

Would I want to faction with the magic squirrels? (presuming I wanted to play a game with magic squirrels. Which I don't.)

That would depends on what I would have to do.

A real example in Lord of the Rings Online. I wanted a Lothlorien white horse. gaining faction with Lothlorien was tedious and dull. So much so, I don't' know if I could ever do it again.

Just like I KNOW I can't do Hytbolt again.

But, If entering the magic forest required a special elixer and I needed to find and create (or hire someone to create) that elixer? Sure. That could be fun.

Same game, different example, I sort of liked having to raise my radiance in order to pass by those statues. That worked for me. The rest of their system I didn't quite like.

For me it just depends on how it's presented.

Your last line sums it up, nicely

If a player is rolling their eyes and exasperating loudly, then whatever "it" is, is failing to entertain. If a player doesn't mind, or even looks forward to "it", then you've done well

I completley agree. the only issue is making sure that players are clear on what the game is about.

There are a few here who don't like "survival" game play mechanics. I personally like them.

Players need to be clear on the games they are buying and be on board with what it they are about.

Proper demographic and all that.

cameltosis · August 2020

Amathe said:

Ok suppose you are out adventuring and you come to a bridge. It's snowing. You try to cross the bridge and you die. Why? Because you had not accumulated and equipped enough ice protection crystal thingies.

So what would you call that. Crystals as a feature (a system to be learned and mastered)?

Or is it content (collecting crystals).

Just garden variety bad play for not equipping protective items?

Or lastly just a pain in the ass. More shite to have to gather or face a stop to your desired game play?

I can think of some games in development that keep touting systems they have that distinguish them in some way, that just don't sound fun at all unless you like doing stuff to be doing stuff.

I would call this unnecessary complexity - bloat

From what you've briefly described, players would now be required to know about more things (environment vs crystals, thereby increasing complexity), leading to them having to acquire new things, but none of the actual gameplay has changed. That makes it an unneccesary feature that doesn't add anything meaningful to the game, it's just another barrier in the player's way.

You should always avoid adding more complexity to a game, unless that addition leads to more depth or new types of gameplay.

AlBQuirky · August 2020

I realize that I didn't answer your question, so here goes

Like many here, it really depends on how it is implemented. That little "extra bit" can be fun and enjoyable, but more often is not.

It's all part of the game loop, right. Kind of like killing small things, improving your character, then killing bigger things to improve your character more. Sometimes its fun, sometimes tedious.

I like variety in my games. I don't want 100% fun and high adrenaline. I need some tedious and boring sprinkled in to make the fun times better, if that makes sense

MMOExposed · August 2020

Amathe said:

Ok suppose you are out adventuring and you come to a bridge. It's snowing. You try to cross the bridge and you die. Why? Because you had not accumulated and equipped enough ice protection crystal thingies.

So what would you call that. Crystals as a feature (a system to be learned and mastered)?

Or is it content (collecting crystals).

Just garden variety bad play for not equipping protective items?

Or lastly just a pain in the ass. More shite to have to gather or face a stop to your desired game play?

I can think of some games in development that keep touting systems they have that distinguish them in some way, that just don't sound fun at all unless you like doing stuff to be doing stuff.

Its what MMOs called Attunement quest. Many old MMOs like WoW did this very thing for Raids.

Theocritus · August 2020

I remember when playing EQ early on...We knew alot of the stuff was put in the game to keep us playing longer and not to level up too fast. They wanted players to sub for years, not play for one month and be gone.

Ungood · August 2020

Amathe said:

Ok suppose you are out adventuring and you come to a bridge. It's snowing. You try to cross the bridge and you die. Why? Because you had not accumulated and equipped enough ice protection crystal thingies.

So what would you call that. Crystals as a feature (a system to be learned and mastered)?

Or is it content (collecting crystals).

Just garden variety bad play for not equipping protective items?

Or lastly just a pain in the ass. More shite to have to gather or face a stop to your desired game play?

I can think of some games in development that keep touting systems they have that distinguish them in some way, that just don't sound fun at all unless you like doing stuff to be doing stuff.

Ok.

This really depends. And Ideally it needs to make sense and fit within the game world.

Personally, If a game has environmental effects, like Cold Weather freezing you to death for example, I would expect there to be a common sense way to approach this, like for example "Cold Weather Outfits" which, the process by which they are obtained could vary, but the base idea is there, that you need to deal with environmental effects.

Equally so, I would then expect there to be outfits for Temperate, Hot, Jungle, so that it all work together, all the biomes of maybe a change of season, make it so that players need to equip and outfit the right gear for the right environment.

This really depends on the game. If the game is built from the ground up to work this system, it should feel like this makes sense, and that it fits into the world, not some hackeyned system, but something that just feels a natural part of the game, something that you kinda kick yourself in the ass for, because you should have known better because of how the whole rest of game is set up.

Case in point, in DDO, if you go into a dungeon full of ice mobs, you want to put on your Ice-resist gear, and equip your flaming weapons, but this system is so a part of the game, that players get faced with and taught this from the very start, so it quickly becomes an instinctive part of how you approach the game, where you instinctively plan ahead for what you are going to face.

So like any feature/content like that, it needs to work with and fit the game. If it does, even the most silly sounding ideas, like collecting ice crystals to cross a bridge, can seems very logical and just a natural part of the way the game is played.

Azaron_Nightblade · August 2020

Amathe said:

Maybe players have a patience battery that weakens over time, and maybe mine is overtaxed. But things like I want to enter the enchanted forest, but first I need faction with the magic squirrels, who want golden chestnuts, which requires a +5 nutcracker, blah blah. Just layer after layer of TASKS masquerading as content pretending to be fun.

It's because the older we get, the more precious our free time gets for us, I think.

I find myself lacking the patience I had during my twenties for certain things too these days.

cheyane · August 2020

Depends on how large my inventory is. The problem is if you have to carry around multiple things because you might need them it can be quite bad if your inventory is small.

I always used to chafe about the loss of a whole bag as a hunter in WoW or the 4 spaces to my totems as a shaman and initially when you bags are so small these things are stuff you have to tolerate.

Otoh if the inventory is large then planning is of no consequence. I do have patience I'd like to think and I would play a game where going to areas that require certain gear or items and I would consider the planning part of strategy and survival.

Lithuanian · August 2020

Depends in implementation. If Ice shards drop from raid end-monster (1 raid, 2 shards and my toon needs 12 shards), then it's disaster. If Ice shards drop very rarely from Grumpy Monkeys, it's disaster. If they are repeatable quest rewards - it's ok (yay, I have gold, so can buy from grinder!). If they just drop from every third monster - it's ok too.

That's only one aspect.

Second: how are these shards presented in game. Is there a story about them (Lotro players, remember Nurzum...) or just "To enter enchanted forest, use 12 ice shards, lol"? Are they just for Enchanted forest or usable anywhere else?

Imagine SWTOR: brave Sith tries to cross bridge and end a threat of this pesky Rebel scum. However, imperial intelligence officer at neariest outpost explains about Ice field technology these scumbags started using. Soldiers without special chips are frozen to death and we even had few Sith apprentices dead. Of course, Empire won't tolerate Sith losses, a squadron of Tie Bombers is on its way to smash Ice field generators. Meanwhile, if Your Lordship would wish, there is a chance Rebel scum Engineers are carrying new chip prototypes, called "Ice shard". With only 12 of them, we could be able to manufacture an armour for your Lordship that allows survival in extreme cold. All this with some animated scenes, showing generators and huge number of Tie bombers flying from Star destroyer.
[Would work for me, even if it can be translated "Go, kill 12 mobs, return to NPC, receive armour, mission complete"]

AlBQuirky · August 2020

Azaron_Nightblade said:

Amathe said:

Maybe players have a patience battery that weakens over time, and maybe mine is overtaxed. But things like I want to enter the enchanted forest, but first I need faction with the magic squirrels, who want golden chestnuts, which requires a +5 nutcracker, blah blah. Just layer after layer of TASKS masquerading as content pretending to be fun.

It's because the older we get, the more precious our free time gets for us, I think.

I find myself lacking the patience I had during my twenties for certain things too these days.

Then we get even older and we find we have free time a-plenty!

I often wonder why I can/don't play video games for multiple hours on end anymore. Some of it is physical discomfort, but some is "boredom."

If I'm playing older games that I've played before, I find I'm "going through the motions" but not really engaged anymore, even though it is fun.

Newer games just seem so shallow these days where nearly everything is about action combat and how long you can keep the adrenaline going that I tire out VERY fast playing them.

Or, maybe my "patience" has all been spent

delete5230 · August 2020

I don't want a game where I feel I'm walking through mud.

A weather system, where you have to have weather gear is an annoyance.

An mmorpg needs both "programmers" and "artist".... The artist is the writer that makes the game flow. He can balance out the struggling realistic that can make the game fun or not.

A true artist can look at the game their producing and objectively say "if I do this people will hate it"....... They have to have a NATURAL GIFT. You have it or you don't. After all everyone doesn't have the ability to be a rock star or a quarterback.

I'm also a believer that collage or training will never give that NATURAL GIFT to be great. Forcing your way through does not make good doctors. You can't say " damit-to-hell I have the money, I insist on being a brain surgeon".

I'm beginning to think Pantheon developers are not naturals, some of their ideas are whacked out. I started to feel this way when I learned what the perception system really is (puzzle quest). I assumed it would simply be that you see objects, doors, and treasures others don't see until you hone this talent.... simple as that !! ...... Instead we have to reach in and think like Jappa and do his puzzles or you don't play.

I can guarantee a harsh game built to instill grouping, a six player team will not stop to do a Jappa puzzle....... The guy is NOT A NATURAL, just strange.

ChildoftheShadows · August 2020

It’s the death penalty question all over again. Personal preferences.

cameltosis · August 2020

AlBQuirky said:

Azaron_Nightblade said:

Amathe said:

Maybe players have a patience battery that weakens over time, and maybe mine is overtaxed. But things like I want to enter the enchanted forest, but first I need faction with the magic squirrels, who want golden chestnuts, which requires a +5 nutcracker, blah blah. Just layer after layer of TASKS masquerading as content pretending to be fun.

It's because the older we get, the more precious our free time gets for us, I think.

I find myself lacking the patience I had during my twenties for certain things too these days.

Then we get even older and we find we have free time a-plenty!

I often wonder why I can/don't play video games for multiple hours on end anymore. Some of it is physical discomfort, but some is "boredom."

If I'm playing older games that I've played before, I find I'm "going through the motions" but not really engaged anymore, even though it is fun.

Newer games just seem so shallow these days where nearly everything is about action combat and how long you can keep the adrenaline going that I tire out VERY fast playing them.

Or, maybe my "patience" has all been spent

This is why I spend most of my time playing strategy / sim games! Doesn't really matter if the game is "easy", the creativity lets me find my own fun within the game and keeps it interesting for many hours.

As for the boredom thing, I'm right there with you. Part of that is that the games industry has a much broader audience, so games are no longed aimed at people like us.

A bigger part is simply that your personal experience keeps increasing year by year. The more you know about gaming, the more likely it is that a new game is going to seem easy and straightforwards to you, so you get bored much more quickly. I also think this is why "older" players tend to appreciate story much more than younger ones: a new story is basically the only interesting thing left.

KnightFalz · August 2020

If dealing with environmental issues is an element of the game it's just part of the play one should expect. If such is normally ignored but just randomly added in here and there just because, it would be rather annoying. kind of like the occasional jumping puzzles in some MMORGPs are to me as if I wanted that I would be playing a platform game.

KnightFalz · August 2020

Theocritus said:

It seems some of these newer single player survival games are trying to use the tedious gameplay....You have to monitor your hunger, thirst, and body temperature levels or you will die. While it sounds somewhat realistic, it makes for awful gameplay.

I'm sure it is awful, for anyone that doesn't want to play a survival game. I expect those keen on that type of game see those elements as rather the point of them. If you're always well fed and watered and live in a benign environment there won't be a whole lot of surviving going on.

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