Because MMOs are not suited to crowdfunding because the money they need is far more than other types of games and so is the development time. And because when they fudge the funding goal and timelines to make the campaign look more appealing they've already started manipulating their audience and that comes back to bite them.
Sure but a couple decades ago they could pump them out in 4 years on average.
We are 2 times past that already with no end in sight and they have gargantuan budgets to boot.
They lost the drive, they no longer hungry for a pay out as they already got paid.
Who knows? all we know is something ain't right that's for sure.
My faith is my shield! - Turalyon 2022
Your legend ends here and now! - (Battles Won Long Ago)
Because MMOs are not suited to crowdfunding because the money they need is far more than other types of games and so is the development time. And because when they fudge the funding goal and timelines to make the campaign look more appealing they've already started manipulating their audience and that comes back to bite them.
Sure but a couple decades ago they could pump them out in 4 years on average.
We are 2 times past that already with no end in sight and they have gargantuan budgets to boot.
They lost the drive, they no longer hungry for a pay out as they already got paid.
Who knows? all we know is something ain't right that's for sure.
They weren't as complicated or the graphics engines so important.
GW1 was 5 years but the game is instanced except for towns, so that did make is easier.
Making a game with open areas where hundreds of people can play is harder and the coding for management of the game, the network code, etc is really important.
They didnt really go wrong, other than exposing what studios have known internally for decades:
Most games die in development, very few make it to launch
Kickstarters have lifted the curtain and shown this reality to the public. ... The question should not be - where did kickstarters go wrong, but - why did we start believing that kickstarters would be all successful?
I really loved that post, thanks a lot, personally I did not think of this aspect!
That said, I still think that accountability is a separate problem though. Your explanation highlights why even a studio with the best intentions and talents sometimes will fail. There is still the problem that CF gives no safeguards, guarantee or insight that the funding is spent on the game and not in an egregious or corrupt way. And that cuts both ways: studios wasting the funding, or players unfairly accusing the studios of doing so.
On one hand I think it's reasonable to expect accountability from a studio (or whoever is doing the crowd funding) but on the other hand, having "however many" people scrutinizing every purchase, especially when they aren't developers or have never run a business, might be problematic.
Additionally, having a small team order pizza for everyone and then getting backlash over it won't really work.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Personally I don't like giving companies money for nothing in return. THis crap all started when paying for beta testing started to become the norm. All of a sudden comapnies learned that gamers were dumb enough to give money for a product that wasn't even close to finished, sometimes even in the planning stages. The people in the industry have learned what catchphrases and words to use to get gamers to give them money.
On one hand I think it's reasonable to expect accountability from a studio (or whoever is doing the crowd funding) but on the other hand, having "however many" people scrutinizing every purchase, especially when they aren't developers or have never run a business, might be problematic.
Additionally, having a small team order pizza for everyone and then getting backlash over it won't really work.
That's why my first reaction to my first post was: maybe some sort of external audits, you need independent professionals with a sense of reason. You can't have the gamer mob scrutinize everything. It will be counterproductive for both sides: the studio won't be allowed to do its work in peace, and the gamers will shoot themselves in the foot and won't get the game that they paid for in the first place. Dunno, that's the only (however imperfect) measure I can think of.
While in theory that would work (actuallyl in practice it would work) who would pay for this auditor?
Does it come out of the kickstarter fees (in which case kickstarter or whatever platform the project is using, would have to take a larger piece of what is raised) or does it come out of what is raised in which case less money is going to the project.
And could one auditor take care of multiple projects or would they only be able to do one project at a time? I suspect the former but I suppose it would depends on the size of the project.
On one hand I think it's reasonable to expect accountability from a studio (or whoever is doing the crowd funding) but on the other hand, having "however many" people scrutinizing every purchase, especially when they aren't developers or have never run a business, might be problematic.
Additionally, having a small team order pizza for everyone and then getting backlash over it won't really work.
That's why my first reaction to my first post was: maybe some sort of external audits, you need independent professionals with a sense of reason. You can't have the gamer mob scrutinize everything. It will be counterproductive for both sides: the studio won't be allowed to do its work in peace, and the gamers will shoot themselves in the foot and won't get the game that they paid for in the first place. Dunno, that's the only (however imperfect) measure I can think of.
I think a lack of accountability hits to the heart of a lot of their problems, but it sort of implies only keeping developers on track for timing and deliverables promised. That is all a lot of people here have ever focused on. Take that one step further and tie into the point Olepi made about failing the first and second times and what these studios need is oversight and guidance. First to keep them on track and in realistic scope, but then to avoid pitfalls when it comes to actually launching.
The community pollution issue is still a problem though. That is a tricky one.
edit: @Sovrath it could be a project developer position just like artists and programmers. It should be objective and high level but maybe not completely outside the project.
So you are saying part of the developer group? So that would be another salary. Or "a salary" if the development group isn't planning on taking a salary until the project is released.
I'm not saying that should't be done but given the ranges of what these projects ask for "or" actually cost that could be another 60k toward an auditor.
I'm wondering if this really should just be a part of the crowdfunding platform fees.
Then again, I don't know if one person could do several projects or not.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Lots of good points in this thread and im sure they all contribute to the problems. However, there are two major points that I think are the main causes:
1) As @remsleep said, loads of games fail during development, it's just we usually aren't aware of them. Crowdfunding has simply exposed this. The reasons for failing are numerous and im sure most of them have been covered in this thread.
2) NOT ENOUGH MONEY! Outside of star citizen, how much money is actually raised through cf? I'm pretty sure it's all less than $5mil. Who the hell can make an mmorpg for 5mil?!?! It's just completely unrealistic, which is why all these companies end up seeking additional investment. Sure, i know some of the original mmos were built for less money, but that was decades ago, between inflation and increased player expectations, you just can't build a full game for that much money.
With all that said, there is a reason crowdfunding exists: the market isn't providing the sorts of games that we want. Crowdfunding gives us the illusion that we can influence the market so we get the games we actually want. I can understand that and can understand why some gamers agree to fund such games.
However, I'm of the opinion that the failure lies with the sales pitch of studios, combined with the risk-averse nature of big investors. If you have designed a good game, investors should be lining up to get in on that action. The fact that you've had to resort to crowdfunding means you've been unable to convince genuine investors about the potential of your game.
Currently Playing: WAR RoR - Spitt rr7X Black Orc | Scrotling rr6X Squig Herder | Scabrous rr4X Shaman
Because MMOs are not suited to crowdfunding because the money they need is far more than other types of games and so is the development time. And because when they fudge the funding goal and timelines to make the campaign look more appealing they've already started manipulating their audience and that comes back to bite them.
Sure but a couple decades ago they could pump them out in 4 years on average.
We are 2 times past that already with no end in sight and they have gargantuan budgets to boot.
They lost the drive, they no longer hungry for a pay out as they already got paid.
Who knows? all we know is something ain't right that's for sure.
They weren't as complicated or the graphics engines so important.
GW1 was 5 years but the game is instanced except for towns, so that did make is easier.
Making a game with open areas where hundreds of people can play is harder and the coding for management of the game, the network code, etc is really important.
Sure great point actually, but the tools handle most of the heaving lifting i thought, i could be wrong i don't work with graphics so can't say.
I'm just reflecting back to how deep and complex games like Anarchy Online were, EQ, EQ2, AC, and OMG SWG like still the most complex deep mmorpg there is.
All delivered in under 5 years.
I think the answer i'm looking for has all ready been stated, they were working for a company and had "accountability" plus it must have been a fun fun fun fun "very interesting" time to be developing games, pioneering times, so they themselves were probably very intrigued and into it, very motivated.
My faith is my shield! - Turalyon 2022
Your legend ends here and now! - (Battles Won Long Ago)
Sure great point actually, but the tools handle most of the heaving lifting i thought, i could be wrong i don't work with graphics so can't say.
I'm just reflecting back to how deep and complex games like Anarchy Online were, EQ, EQ2, AC, and OMG SWG like still the most complex deep mmorpg there is.
All delivered in under 5 years.
I think the answer i'm looking for has all ready been stated, they were working for a company and had "accountability" plus it must have been a fun fun fun fun "very interesting" time to be developing games, pioneering times, so they themselves were probably very intrigued and into it, very motivated.
So, I'm a big fan of Raph Koster and have read some of his books. His "Extended Essays" book contains basically all of his blog posts, plus a ton of unpublished essays, and is a great resource for learning how SWG was developed. Some highlights:
SWG took roughly 18 months to build. They had been working on it for a while before Raph joined the team but nearly all of that early work got scrapped.
There was very little accountability. MMOs were still an unknown entity so the bosses really had no clue what to expect or what to compare it against. This was a small team of excited geeks experimenting with something new. They did have a hard deadline, so a load of features were dropped or simplified in order to release.
The worlds are procedurally generated. This was the only way to build worlds as large as they had. If they had done it by hand (like most games), it would have taken forever and they wouldn't have been able to publish. The height maps and textures alone would have required 2.5gb per world. Considering this was still CD-ROM era, the game would have needed like 20 discs.
Gameplay / mechanics require less space and code to write, but are technically harder to do and are less suited to cooperation. You can't just throw more resources at it to get it done quicker or better. This can be a real bottleneck to game dev, as so much of the other work hangs off of the mechanics. Plus, if the initial design isn't fun, it can take a while to fix it, delaying all the other departments too.
Graphics sell. Doesn't matter how good the gameplay is, if you don't have good graphics you aren't going to get the players into your game. Graphics are very expensive. In the early 2000s, you could have bad graphics because there was minimal competition, but these days with games like BDO, you really do need good graphics to attract new players.
There wasn't, and still isn't, an MMO game engine. That means either creating something from scratch, or trying to hack an existing engine to make it work. Both options are very difficult and there just aren't that many devs capable of doing so. If you can't hire the right people to do this, you're going to struggle a lot.
the main takeaway is really the cost of graphics. modern engines might help with creating gameplay, but creating the graphics is exponentially more expensive than it used to be.
an example: I briefly worked in QA for a large game studio in the UK. For the game I worked on, it took roughly 2 months to do the graphics for a single car. Each car required 5 levels of detail, plus each panel was destructible, so the artists essentially had to do about 15 different versions of the same car in order to get it done. Thats before you take into account all the tracks, plus all the UI etc.
Currently Playing: WAR RoR - Spitt rr7X Black Orc | Scrotling rr6X Squig Herder | Scabrous rr4X Shaman
Minimal Risk and Minimal if any Accountability for would be developer.
Unfortunately the minimal risk for the developer (since they moved that risk on the shoulders of the funders) is what allows these devs to experiment and design out of the box, which is the point of CF's existence in the first place. It sounds like a necessary evil.
Accountability, however, should be improved in my opinion.
Unfortunately history has not been kind to almost all the the crowd funded projects I've kept an eye out for. There is an old saying "easy come, easy go" . Human nature will almost always take the prize.
It's just too easy, my spam box tells me so.
We're always more diligent and prudent when we have our own skin on the line.
Looks like Wagadu Chronicles is going down the isomorphic route, but I doubt the graphics there would be good enough for me, maybe asking for Divinity OS graphics in a MMO is a bit of a push?
To me, crowdfunding is like playing the lottery. Money to burn put it in.
It is more like giving the homeless veteran with the "will work for food" signs that actually counts on money, not work. It is money you won't see again. If lucky, you may get a game
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
On paper, the concept of crowd funding looks "nice." Giving sincere developers a chance to experiment. Yea... I support that!
What I see in reality are triple A (or highly successful) studios going for crowd funding, games that are NOT innovative, and change in the industry where the cart (money/reward for finished product/service) is before the horse. It is JUST like going to the "Pay Day Early" corner store. Once you go, your next check is short and you find yourself right back there, time and time again.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Some of these games seem to blow out in scope or lose their initial direction. They were kind of marketed as games that were going to focus on a specific niche, but when you look closely at what they are actually doing they are all over the place.
For example, I was following the pvp games CF and CU because I really like playing faction-based pvp in games like ESO, GW2, and WAR. I was expecting that because CF and CU were focused solely on delivering that kind of experience (well more so CU) that they could deliver something that played at least better than WAR in a timely fashion.
Instead look what happened. One studio spent all their time developing a game engine, the other can't even build a functional in game map. Its just total bullshit to be honest.
I still have money in CU, I consider it a stupidity tax at this point. Never again. I should have cashed out years ago, but at this point I might as well ride the Titanic to the bottom.
Will never spend a penny again on a game that is not released yet.
I don't think there really was a time when crowd funded MMORPGs existed but hadn't yet gone wrong. If you had explained the crowd funded MMORPG to me a year before Kickstarter existed, I probably would have told you that it wasn't going to work out very well.
I still have money in CU, I consider it a stupidity tax at this point. Never again. I should have cashed out years ago, but at this point I might as well ride the Titanic to the bottom.
Will never spend a penny again on a game that is not released yet.
For me its not about dreams or how well you rate the gaming company, it is just common sense. Wait for the reviews before you buy, already gaming companies are trying to obfuscate that, I wonder how long before every Early Access gets a review?
I see this as an industry that wants us to pay more for less and they are getting away with it again and again. Look at the fans reaction to us finding out that Cyberpunk will have a shorter storyline than Witcher 3, they give us less and we clap and pay more. And actually CD Project is in my eyes good gaming company when compared to the field, but they are all at it.
I still have money in CU, I consider it a stupidity tax at this point. Never again. I should have cashed out years ago, but at this point I might as well ride the Titanic to the bottom.
Will never spend a penny again on a game that is not released yet.
For me its not about dreams or how well you rate the gaming company, it is just common sense. Wait for the reviews before you buy, already gaming companies are trying to obfuscate that, I wonder how long before every Early Access gets a review?
I see this as an industry that wants us to pay more for less and they are getting away with it again and again. Look at the fans reaction to us finding out that Cyberpunk will have a shorter storyline than Witcher 3, they give us less and we clap and pay more. And actually CD Project is in my eyes good gaming company when compared to the field, but they are all at it.
I don't think it's much of a stretch to argue that [non-MMO] games HAVE gotten too big, too long, and too expensive to make, all while staying at almost the same price point for 30 years. If CDPR has data that only 10% of players (or whatever it actually is) completed the main storyline of Witcher 3, they have plenty of reason to trim the fat. Assassin's Creed really changed the single-player landscape in a lot of ways...some are good, some are bad, and some are a double-edged sword. You could argue that once they gave us 100 extra hours of fluff in the same $60 package, they had opened Pandora's Box and going back was going to create blowback, but I think it's an inevitable blowback that 100% needs to happen.
I still have money in CU, I consider it a stupidity tax at this point. Never again. I should have cashed out years ago, but at this point I might as well ride the Titanic to the bottom.
Will never spend a penny again on a game that is not released yet.
For me its not about dreams or how well you rate the gaming company, it is just common sense. Wait for the reviews before you buy, already gaming companies are trying to obfuscate that, I wonder how long before every Early Access gets a review?
I see this as an industry that wants us to pay more for less and they are getting away with it again and again. Look at the fans reaction to us finding out that Cyberpunk will have a shorter storyline than Witcher 3, they give us less and we clap and pay more. And actually CD Project is in my eyes good gaming company when compared to the field, but they are all at it.
I don't think it's much of a stretch to argue that [non-MMO] games HAVE gotten too big, too long, and too expensive to make, all while staying at almost the same price point for 30 years. If CDPR has data that only 10% of players (or whatever it actually is) completed the main storyline of Witcher 3, they have plenty of reason to trim the fat. Assassin's Creed really changed the single-player landscape in a lot of ways...some are good, some are bad, and some are a double-edged sword. You could argue that once they gave us 100 extra hours of fluff in the same $60 package, they had opened Pandora's Box and going back was going to create blowback, but I think it's an inevitable blowback that 100% needs to happen.
I digress, as that really has no bearing on MMOs.
All extra launch game content does for me is ensure I want to buy their dlc's and the next iteration in the series. So more main game means more sales in my eyes.
They fail because we buy extra stuff before launch. MMO devs know it, and don't even try to plan that if Kickstarter is successful they can finish the game without more player purchases. Instead they ask for enough funding to start their own development show/marketing campaign.
Game projects that set out to create a game are fairly successful at what they do. But when we allow for game projects that set out to create a show and marketing campaign for selling more stuff, those projects are also fairly successful at creating one, their creation just isn't a game.
The largest windfall I have seen with Crowd Funded games, is the people that put their dime in thinking they were somehow in control of the game, and expecting the game to be delivered overnight.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Think of a crowdfunded game as a startup. And 90% of startups fail.
To get real backing from real investors, you will have to have both a good development plan, and a good business plan. Investors want to know how much money they will make off of their investment, and how soon they will make it. Otherwise, they'll invest in something else.
95% of start ups, I have worked in start ups and the issue is the management can't change from raising money to making a product to sell. There is a mind set change that needs to happen that doesn't.
Well CF MMOs are no where near a 95% fail rate, so they are actually bucking the norm. That actually gives me some hope.
I think you are way overblowing 95% fail rate for startups. Average small businesses don't even come close to this fail rate.
Particularly disturbing though, is what percent of start ups that have external funding don't even get a product to start? Ya that has to be extremely small and yet here we are with all these MMO's failing before they even deliver a product. This is extremely troubling for MMO's not to even release at all.
I suppose people are getting used to this. I hope this doesn't start crossing over into other industries geez.
The largest windfall I have seen with Crowd Funded games, is the people that put their dime in thinking they were somehow in control of the game, and expecting the game to be delivered overnight.
This is a major reason I dislike crowdfunding games -- companies convincing ordinary people to give them money. A proper investor will have expectations for their money -- how much will it earn them, when will it pay out, security or ownership of the company, etc. Companies pursuing the CF route rely on attracting money without these 'conventional attachments'. It allows people to roleplay a moneyed investor, without providing any of the benefits.
Note to those thinking that a lack of oversight/accountability is a problem with the CF method: who would normally provide this level of oversight? That's right, the traditional investor. The CF developer wants nothing to do with the levels of accountability that the traditional investment methods provide. No deadlines that must be kept, no one looking over the development plans, no collateral, and no ramifications for failure. It's everything an independent company wants. Money without obligations.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Comments
GW1 was 5 years but the game is instanced except for towns, so that did make is easier.
Making a game with open areas where hundreds of people can play is harder and the coding for management of the game, the network code, etc is really important.
Additionally, having a small team order pizza for everyone and then getting backlash over it won't really work.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Minimal Risk and Minimal if any Accountability for would be developer.
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
Does it come out of the kickstarter fees (in which case kickstarter or whatever platform the project is using, would have to take a larger piece of what is raised) or does it come out of what is raised in which case less money is going to the project.
And could one auditor take care of multiple projects or would they only be able to do one project at a time? I suspect the former but I suppose it would depends on the size of the project.
edit: this is sort of interesting https://www.inc.com/erik-sherman/the-high-unforeseen-cost-of-crowdfunding.html
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I'm not saying that should't be done but given the ranges of what these projects ask for "or" actually cost that could be another 60k toward an auditor.
I'm wondering if this really should just be a part of the crowdfunding platform fees.
Then again, I don't know if one person could do several projects or not.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
It's just too easy, my spam box tells me so.
We're always more diligent and prudent when we have our own skin on the line.
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
What I see in reality are triple A (or highly successful) studios going for crowd funding, games that are NOT innovative, and change in the industry where the cart (money/reward for finished product/service) is before the horse. It is JUST like going to the "Pay Day Early" corner store. Once you go, your next check is short and you find yourself right back there, time and time again.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
For example, I was following the pvp games CF and CU because I really like playing faction-based pvp in games like ESO, GW2, and WAR. I was expecting that because CF and CU were focused solely on delivering that kind of experience (well more so CU) that they could deliver something that played at least better than WAR in a timely fashion.
Instead look what happened. One studio spent all their time developing a game engine, the other can't even build a functional in game map. Its just total bullshit to be honest.
I see this as an industry that wants us to pay more for less and they are getting away with it again and again. Look at the fans reaction to us finding out that Cyberpunk will have a shorter storyline than Witcher 3, they give us less and we clap and pay more. And actually CD Project is in my eyes good gaming company when compared to the field, but they are all at it.
I don't think it's much of a stretch to argue that [non-MMO] games HAVE gotten too big, too long, and too expensive to make, all while staying at almost the same price point for 30 years. If CDPR has data that only 10% of players (or whatever it actually is) completed the main storyline of Witcher 3, they have plenty of reason to trim the fat. Assassin's Creed really changed the single-player landscape in a lot of ways...some are good, some are bad, and some are a double-edged sword. You could argue that once they gave us 100 extra hours of fluff in the same $60 package, they had opened Pandora's Box and going back was going to create blowback, but I think it's an inevitable blowback that 100% needs to happen.
I digress, as that really has no bearing on MMOs.
Game projects that set out to create a game are fairly successful at what they do. But when we allow for game projects that set out to create a show and marketing campaign for selling more stuff, those projects are also fairly successful at creating one, their creation just isn't a game.
The largest windfall I have seen with Crowd Funded games, is the people that put their dime in thinking they were somehow in control of the game, and expecting the game to be delivered overnight.
I think you are way overblowing 95% fail rate for startups. Average small businesses don't even come close to this fail rate.
Particularly disturbing though, is what percent of start ups that have external funding don't even get a product to start? Ya that has to be extremely small and yet here we are with all these MMO's failing before they even deliver a product. This is extremely troubling for MMO's not to even release at all.
I suppose people are getting used to this. I hope this doesn't start crossing over into other industries geez.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.