Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Is it fair you need to stay subbed to complete the WOW expansion?

13

Comments

  • xpsyncxpsync Member EpicPosts: 1,854
    edited December 2020
    It's the deal, are we back to knocking subs again?

    SWG:L i pay a monthly donation = play
    WOW R/C i pay a sub = play

    The rest are cash shop crap, not the game calm down, but the whole cash shop is f'ed af, eso was omg please just f'ing stop ruining this game, ffx  whatever are U fucking with me right now ummm PAY to skip the game i mean how bad is this game /jk calm the fuck down.

    Mostly why i respect wow and swg:l, pay your sub, play and earn, ok not the hardest to earn much, but somethings yes.

    Sure yes i know wow has a cash shop for services, a few pets & mounts, but it's not constantly in my f'ing face, f me logging into eq2, or eso, ok hang on everyone getting through al the cash shop advertising, the horror they inflicted on those games, should be laws.

    All my gaming atm is pay your measly sub, play and earn. Cheapest gaming i've had in over decade. Good to be back. Tis the good life again, or as good as one can get that wants to play and not play with their wallet.
    AlBQuirkyGdemami
    My faith is my shield! - Turalyon 2022

    Your legend ends here and now! - (Battles Won Long Ago)

    Currently Playing; Dragonflight and SWG:L
  • KnightFalzKnightFalz Member EpicPosts: 4,522
    xpsync said:
    eso was omg please just f'ing stop ruining this game

    Optional purchases are optional.

    Also, subscribers get a stipend of points along with to purchase a good amount of what they wish from the cash shop at no additional cost, and everyone gets a daily login bonus that often includes useful things from the shop.

    There is nothing "game ruining" about it.
    xpsyncAlBQuirky
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 43,975
    Torval said:
    Rhoklaw said:
    AlBQuirky said:
    Rhoklaw said:
    AlBQuirky said:
    Ungood said:
    I'm trying to rethink my perspective, maybe WOW is a different beast (unlike other MMORPGS/DLCs that have complete storylines day 1). 
    Time gating Releases to continue/generate hype is not a new thing. And just because you do not have access to it, does not mean it is has not been completed.

    Case in point, the Lord of the Rings Trilogy, the whole thing was shot all at once, and then it was broken down into Three Movies, and had time gated release dates. This obviously to give people time to watch the movie, buy all the apocopate merchandise, and allow it to simmer in and maximize their hype time and profits, and then the next movie was released, all new merchandise was released, all new hype, and it keeps the fans involved, it keeps the hype alive, and it keeps the profit from merchandise flowing.
    Not even close. Was The Lord of the Rings marketed as "one complete movie?" No. It was The Fellowship of the Ring, The Two Towers, and Return of the King.
    No MMO has been or ever will be marketed as fully complete.
    Expansions used to be. I did not intend to imply "the whole MMO game." My apologies if that's how it sounded.

    I seem to be the only one who read Twisted's original post as "WoW's new expansion is story based, like many before it. Is it fair that this expansion's story is incomplete and meant to keep you subbed while they finish the story?"

    I seem to be making things worse, so I'll shut up now.
    While I understand the complaint or argument about how Blizzard is handling the release of this new expansion, the only people to blame are the rabid fans of WoW because if I'm not mistaken, Blizzard has been notorious over the past few years of sticking it to their beloved veterans and every year, they simply bend over and take it.

    These are the same morons who thought Diablo Mobile is what we all wanted.

    Blizzard execs are completely and absolutely 100% bonkers and out of touch with reality.

    It really comes down to a shared blame, but like I mentioned earlier, the grass isn't much greener in any other pasture. I can't think of one GAAS game service that doesn't play these shenanigans to some degree.
    Is it really shenanigans though?  I don’t play WoW but wouldn’t it be disappointing to a huge chunk of the player-base if the long awaited expansion dropped and all the new content was done in under a month?  

    I’m normally very critical of companies but I dunno about this example.  But then again I grew up on the model so maybe I’m just used to it.
    WOW fans are sissies, we FO76 fans just received a long awaited BOS expansion only to end up completing the entire storyline in four hours, if we took our time.

    But hey, it was FREE right?

    Pro tip kidz, it pretty much was worth what I paid for it.

    Go figure.


    [Deleted User]AlBQuirkyKidRisk

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • GorweGorwe Member Posts: 1,593
    Why don't you just pause your sub and then resub once it's complete?

    As for "fair"...shit ain't fair, but that's how it rolls. It's their business strategy, it's up to you to accept or reject it. But no, they don't owe you nothing more than they deliver. It's not that they're stringing you along(most of the time), it's that it isn't finished! MMOs should be treated more like series, not like movies or you'll make a Category Mistake and be left all confused.
    AlBQuirky
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 43,975
    Torval said:
    Kyleran said:
    Is it really shenanigans though?  I don’t play WoW but wouldn’t it be disappointing to a huge chunk of the player-base if the long awaited expansion dropped and all the new content was done in under a month?  

    I’m normally very critical of companies but I dunno about this example.  But then again I grew up on the model so maybe I’m just used to it.
    WOW fans are sissies, we FO76 fans just received a long awaited BOS expansion only to end up completing the entire storyline in four hours, if we took our time.

    But hey, it was FREE right?

    Pro tip kidz, it pretty much was worth what I paid for it.

    Go figure.
    I hear Bethesda is selling green paint in the Atom Shop to cover the grass on their side of the fence. Just 1800 Atoms. :lol:
    Figures, the free paint is brown and smells like sh!t.

     :# 
    [Deleted User]AlBQuirkyGorwe

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • xpsyncxpsync Member EpicPosts: 1,854
    xpsync said:
    eso was omg please just f'ing stop ruining this game

    Optional purchases are optional.

    Also, subscribers get a stipend of points along with to purchase a good amount of what they wish from the cash shop at no additional cost, and everyone gets a daily login bonus that often includes useful things from the shop.

    There is nothing "game ruining" about it.

    You can find anywhere i always praised eso for the best sub value, but when i logged in last, stop with the lockboxs please. None in the games i play, and i guess when you are playing this way for so long you kinda get how annoying it is through the looking glass is all, some players like it and that's fine, some have grown accustomed to it.
    My faith is my shield! - Turalyon 2022

    Your legend ends here and now! - (Battles Won Long Ago)

    Currently Playing; Dragonflight and SWG:L
  • TwistedSister77TwistedSister77 Member EpicPosts: 1,144
    edited December 2020
    Torval and some others are articulating my point well.

    How long did BFA take to complete the story?  6+ months (tried to google it, so someone correct me).  So IF you stay subbed, that's another $90.

    If as others say, unsub and resub, how many story updates were released?  3,4?( again trying to google)  Another $45-60

    If you wait nearly 9+ months for it all to release, then you have to worry about what the next expansion might do to the old one you want to play.

    I'm not whining, wow players are conditioned on this model.  But like Torval said, ESO drops complete story dlcs... that they can expand upon.  

    If there's more to an expansion than just solo storyline (classes, mechanic changes, crafting, pvp modes, dungeons)... people will stay.

    And if wow had a complete initial Shadowlands storyline... then added additional shadowland storylines... I think that would be fine.
    AlBQuirkyGdemami
  • FrodoFraginsFrodoFragins Member EpicPosts: 6,050
    Iselin said:
    Nanfoodle said:
    Torval said:
    Nanfoodle said:
    I don't get this persistent desire to make all content free.

    The OP didn't ask for free content. You twisted their wording around to try and make it sound like that. The OP said they didn't like how an Xpac they paid for is chopped up and strung out just to prolong subscriptions.
    I dont agree. When a game since the start has had the same payment model, pay for expansions and sub to play. If you want to remove any part of the payment model, you are asking to have something for free. 
    As I already said above, it really isn't the same. WoW expansions used to be mostly story complete.
    TBC was anything but story complete.  The most important resolutions don't occur until The Black Temple and Sunwell.

    WOTLK and the resolution to the Arthas arc introduced in WC3?  Not resolved until the final raid.

    Vanilla WOW didn't have a strong narrative honestly.  It was more about world building until Naxx which gets back on track with the major lore of WC3.

    Cataclysm was a world rebuilding expansion in order to improve the 1-60 leveling zones.  The lore there indeed was far less impactful or important.  the main bad guy was a D-Tier villain from the RTS games.  The Naga made a return and new storylines were created.

    MoP and later expansions were just trash storytelling for the most part.  With some exceptions in Legion.
    KyleranAlBQuirkySovrath
  • GorweGorwe Member Posts: 1,593
    edited December 2020
    Kyleran said:
    Torval said:
    Kyleran said:
    Is it really shenanigans though?  I don’t play WoW but wouldn’t it be disappointing to a huge chunk of the player-base if the long awaited expansion dropped and all the new content was done in under a month?  

    I’m normally very critical of companies but I dunno about this example.  But then again I grew up on the model so maybe I’m just used to it.
    WOW fans are sissies, we FO76 fans just received a long awaited BOS expansion only to end up completing the entire storyline in four hours, if we took our time.

    But hey, it was FREE right?

    Pro tip kidz, it pretty much was worth what I paid for it.

    Go figure.
    I hear Bethesda is selling green paint in the Atom Shop to cover the grass on their side of the fence. Just 1800 Atoms. :lol:
    Figures, the free paint is brown and smells like sh!t.

     :# 
    Just because it is brown and because it reeks...does that mean it indeed is a bucket of shit? Could be anything, like aromatized paint. ;)
    SovrathAlBQuirkyKyleran
  • TwistedSister77TwistedSister77 Member EpicPosts: 1,144
    Aaaahhh, the "I want it all, and for free" generation ! :/
    Or the " Ahhh I don't read threads and just make assumptions guy" ;)
    AlBQuirky[Deleted User]Gdemami
  • KnightFalzKnightFalz Member EpicPosts: 4,522
    xpsync said:
    xpsync said:
    eso was omg please just f'ing stop ruining this game

    Optional purchases are optional.

    Also, subscribers get a stipend of points along with to purchase a good amount of what they wish from the cash shop at no additional cost, and everyone gets a daily login bonus that often includes useful things from the shop.

    There is nothing "game ruining" about it.

    You can find anywhere i always praised eso for the best sub value, but when i logged in last, stop with the lockboxs please. None in the games i play, and i guess when you are playing this way for so long you kinda get how annoying it is through the looking glass is all, some players like it and that's fine, some have grown accustomed to it.

    Loot boxes are near ubiquitous, regardless of how accustomed  to or enamoured by them we are. It would be ideal that the game I play not include them, but there are few MMORPGs my girl can tolerate visually due to injury aftermath. Sometimes one must put up with a bit of annoyance to overcome such things.

    At least those in ESO don't include anything that would grant inordinate advantage in play, with most of the more common items also distributed through login bonus. As such, I seem them mostly harmless compared to those some games have.

    If they chose to remove the boxes from the game I wouldn't lament their departure, that's for sure.
    AlBQuirkyKyleran
  • KnightFalzKnightFalz Member EpicPosts: 4,522
    Aaaahhh, the "I want it all, and for free" generation ! :/

    Seeing as one can often get a good amount, and for free (from the perspective of the individual), that viewpoint isn't as outlandish as it should be.
    AlBQuirkyKyleran
  • Cybersig211Cybersig211 Member UncommonPosts: 174
    Its pretty bad with the time gating.  I stopped my sub maybe ill be back when I can kind of play at my own pace once they relax the restrictions.

    Im casual and was basically out of things i could do by the weekend. I think it will be much better after a few content patches and might resub and jump back in.  I have a feeling they are going to change stuff around in a few months anyway.

    No this definately isnt "i want it all" its more "why did any of this need to be time gated weekly"

    I think blizzard is paranoid about people lock up at home without anything else to do going crazy but this amount of time gating is impacting me with a few hrs a day and one hardcore play session on the weekend....ill just come back when they dont need to do any of that.

    Also i find the torghast content largely unfun.  But no one plays wow for any of that they play for the raids and the M+ dungeons...and a few for pvp still....

    Nothings majorly wrong with the expansion yet though, so its better than at least two of wows prior expansions already.
    AlBQuirkyFrodoFraginsUngoodGdemamiKyleran
  • SyanisSyanis Member UncommonPosts: 140
    Wizardry said:
    Yes it is a scam and time for people to stop supporting it.I no longer support any subscriptions or monetization.

    I am tired of being ripped off an I don't NEED any game,i am not some addicted junkie,i am the consumer,they need to conform to us not the other way around.
    Utter idiots like this thinking they should get other people's hard work for free to enjoy are a waste of space so do NOT listen to these kind of idiots. If its a good product you should be willing to accept some form of price and not be some entitled brat thinking the world should be free. 
    AlBQuirkyUngood[Deleted User]Kyleran
  • KnightFalzKnightFalz Member EpicPosts: 4,522
    Syanis said:
    Wizardry said:
    Yes it is a scam and time for people to stop supporting it.I no longer support any subscriptions or monetization.

    I am tired of being ripped off an I don't NEED any game,i am not some addicted junkie,i am the consumer,they need to conform to us not the other way around.
    Utter idiots like this thinking they should get other people's hard work for free to enjoy are a waste of space so do NOT listen to these kind of idiots. If its a good product you should be willing to accept some form of price and not be some entitled brat thinking the world should be free. 

    Isn't that largely the concept game providers have been selling to players for years? Our games are free to play, so come and enjoy them without any financial commitment whatsoever, for so long as it pleases you.

    When you breed that mentality long enough it eventually takes hold. Eventually happened and that attitude is becoming increasingly pervasive.

    What should be is rather irrelevant compared to what is. Many game providers earn more revenue with the f2p model so have little motivation to abandon it. Game players don't collectively have the restraint to withhold purchase until they force providers to do so.

    At this point I expect this model could only be overcome with outside intervention, most feasibly government regulation making the f2p marketing model illegal. I don't see this happening as it would likely negatively impact the tax revenue these companies generate.
    AlBQuirky
  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 19,332
    There is a bigger picture and one that is very disturbing.

    Perhaps after i remind you then you might see subscriptions differently.

    I think many a gamer often forgets that developers have managed to curb laws in their favor in that we "apparently"NEVER own a a single game we buy ,err i mean license.

    So they want YOU to pay them money by "pretending"you are purchasing a "GOOD" and not a service AND then want you to pay again for a service ,so the yare double dipping on the service lingo.
    In the end you pay money,you own NOTHING.In reality there is no definitive laws when comes to software games and there is argument when you buy digitally or in a boxed form.

    Developers do not want you to own a single thing,every single time you hand over money the devs declare it as only a SERVICE and not a GOOD and that is very important.

    So are you still ok with paying money to own NOTHING?You own a car right,well you do not own the intellectual right to mass produce that same car and sell it off as your own but you still do OWN that car.Well apparently not the same road we travel with game purchases.
    So because the waters are so murky devs write up their own EULA's as if they were actual LAW and they are not and now forcing people to digitally signing them removing ALL your rights as a consumer.

    So i ask again are you ok with scummy devs claiming you do not own ANY of your purchases claiming it is only a service and oh here we want to charge you again for the SAME service which is to play the game.




    [Deleted User]AlBQuirkyTwistedSister77Narug

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 19,332
    edited December 2020
    You cannot play WOW unless you subscribe.So they have in essence sold you an INVALID license to play Wow.

    I mean they can't claim they are offering a SERVICE and NOT a good if they are not actually offering you a service now can they?

    So the REAL service is the subscription fee which is a limited license a service.

    So then what is the WOW game they are selling you if not a service as they claim?I mean it won't play itself,it would just sit there on your hardrive,no access,no use so NO SERVICE offered.

    See how they play the laws in their favor,it is considered a " good" for sake of selling it but then it  becomes a service after you bought it with ZERO value unless  you pay for ANOTHER service..ROFLMAO.


    [Deleted User]AlBQuirkyTwistedSister77

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • HorusraHorusra Member EpicPosts: 4,411
    When you purchase the game it clearly says requires a subscription to play....you are buying access to the product with an upfront cost and then paying a fee to maintain access to it.  If they did not disclose this to you I would see a problem, but they do not.  You are not entitled to access to the game...
    [Deleted User]AlBQuirkyUngood
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 43,975
    Wizardry said:
    You cannot play WOW unless you subscribe.So they have in essence sold you an INVALID license to play Wow.

    I mean they can't claim they are offering a SERVICE and NOT a good if they are not actually offering you a service now can they?

    So the REAL service is the subscription fee which is a limited license a service.

    So then what is the WOW game they are selling you if not a service as they claim?I mean it won't play itself,it would just sit there on your hardrive,no access,no use so NO SERVICE offered.

    See how they play the laws in their favor,it is considered a " good" for sake of selling it but then it  becomes a service after you bought it with ZERO value unless  you pay for ANOTHER service..ROFLMAO.


    When I subscribe to Netflix, what do I own? Nothing. Just the right to enjoy whatever content they choose to make available when they decide to make it so.

    It is a much better analogy for comparison than to a physical good like a car, gaming really is a service, once consumed I have little need to go back again, too much unseen / unplayed going forward.
    [Deleted User]AlBQuirkyUngood

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 43,975
    edited December 2020
    Torval said:
    Kyleran said:
    Wizardry said:
    You cannot play WOW unless you subscribe.So they have in essence sold you an INVALID license to play Wow.

    I mean they can't claim they are offering a SERVICE and NOT a good if they are not actually offering you a service now can they?

    So the REAL service is the subscription fee which is a limited license a service.

    So then what is the WOW game they are selling you if not a service as they claim?I mean it won't play itself,it would just sit there on your hardrive,no access,no use so NO SERVICE offered.

    See how they play the laws in their favor,it is considered a " good" for sake of selling it but then it  becomes a service after you bought it with ZERO value unless  you pay for ANOTHER service..ROFLMAO.


    When I subscribe to Netflix, what do I own? Nothing. Just the right to enjoy whatever content they choose to make available when they decide to make it so.

    It is a much better analogy for comparison than to a physical good like a car, gaming really is a service, once consumed I have little need to go back again, too much unseen / unplayed going forward.

    To his point, it would be like buying a digital copy of a movie and then having to subcribe to Netflix or Prime video to be able to watch it. That is what games having "box fees" along with mandatory subscriptions are like.

    When I played Lineage 1 only the subscription was required to play. I could buy CD-ROM for $10 so I didn't have to download the entire game over dial-up, but there was no box fee + sub. That came later when game studios found players were willing to spend money however they were told. Look where they've taken that now with loot crates, subs, box fees, and cash shops all in one game. And look at all the gamers that defend throwing money at game studios in every way possible.

    It really isn't so cut and dried to me as a straight trade for a physical good or even a subscription service like Netflix. Even with those you now have all the add-on channels to watch specific content.
    You are almost as old school as Wiz, who doesn't even want to pay for more than a single box price.

    The ship's long since sailed on one and done pricing, you are correct there are gamers more than willing to spend regularly on their hobby.

    As you know a couple of our crew bought what I feel is a very over priced BOS cosmetic pack ($39.99) with one of them also spending $49.99 for an Atom bundle to go with.

    Thing is, for both FO76 is the only game they play, and really their only hobby so they are fine with it. Same is true for me of course but cosmetics don't have a huge appeal. 

    Guess the same is true of loot boxes / gache games, if people are willing to spend their money on such, who am I to say companies shouldn't try to take their money?






    AlBQuirky[Deleted User]

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • KnightFalzKnightFalz Member EpicPosts: 4,522
    Kyleran said:
    Wizardry said:
    You cannot play WOW unless you subscribe.So they have in essence sold you an INVALID license to play Wow.

    I mean they can't claim they are offering a SERVICE and NOT a good if they are not actually offering you a service now can they?

    So the REAL service is the subscription fee which is a limited license a service.

    So then what is the WOW game they are selling you if not a service as they claim?I mean it won't play itself,it would just sit there on your hardrive,no access,no use so NO SERVICE offered.

    See how they play the laws in their favor,it is considered a " good" for sake of selling it but then it  becomes a service after you bought it with ZERO value unless  you pay for ANOTHER service..ROFLMAO.


    When I subscribe to Netflix, what do I own? Nothing. Just the right to enjoy whatever content they choose to make available when they decide to make it so.

    It is a much better analogy for comparison than to a physical good like a car, gaming really is a service, once consumed I have little need to go back again, too much unseen / unplayed going forward.

    WoW isn't for sale. What is sold separately is access to their content and access to their servers. In a way they function as an ISP and Netflix both, supplying both the means to access the content and the content to be accessed.
    AlBQuirky
  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 25,483
    No, it is not fair that WoW allows you to complete the expansion merely by staying subscribed without also needing to buy a bunch of bind on pickup stuff available only from loot boxes or gacha.
    AlBQuirky
  • TheocritusTheocritus Member LegendaryPosts: 9,976
    "PS: I wanted to add... Most (many?) WoW players buy the expansion, play until the story is finished, then quit until the next expansion comes out. This may be why WoW is doing this now."

    I guarantee there are several meetings a year with very highly paid execs asking this very question: How do we keep players subbed longer? It means a great deal of income if 5 million people stay subbed at least another month or two longer.
    AlBQuirky
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 43,975
    "PS: I wanted to add... Most (many?) WoW players buy the expansion, play until the story is finished, then quit until the next expansion comes out. This may be why WoW is doing this now."

    I guarantee there are several meetings a year with very highly paid execs asking this very question: How do we keep players subbed longer? It means a great deal of income if 5 million people stay subbed at least another month or two longer.
    Err...see WOW Classic?
    AlBQuirky

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • UngoodUngood Member LegendaryPosts: 7,534
    Torval said:
    To his point, it would be like buying a digital copy of a movie and then having to subcribe to Netflix or Prime video to be able to watch it. That is what games having "box fees" along with mandatory subscriptions are like.
    Not really, they are more Intune with most services when they have a "Box fee" and a "Sub fee", case n point, When I got my internet installed last year, I had to pay a hook up fee, and a monthly fee to keep it active. If at any time I cancel or cease to pay my internet cable fee, I will need to pay a new hook up fee to get it going again.

    So the idea of paying that initial fee, is not a new thing, and depending on the service you want to relate it to, it is better than some, worse than others, but when it comes to paying for a service, that is what it is. If you want the service, you have to pay for it.
    AlBQuirkyKyleran
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.

Sign In or Register to comment.