Have you ever read a novel and said, I really liked that novel, but I wish it had a 50 page version to give me the gist of the novel?
Yeah, actually - all throughout high school, they're called CliffsNotes.
That's because you didn't like the novel. You just wanted to get through the class that forced you to read a novel that you didn't like. You want shortened versions of things that you dislike so that you can skip doing them. If you dislike a game that you aren't required to play for school or a job, then the sensible thing to do isn't to ask for a shortened version that lets you skip most of it. It's to quit playing the game entirely and go find one that you like better.
hmmm probably/maybe.
For the most part, people using Cliff's Notes are trying to get the main information so they don't have to read the whole book but can pass any tests.
However I'll offer this:
The breakdown, for me, of Wuthering Heights is far more interesting than the actual book. I absolutely could not get through it. And I wasn't reading it for school. I was being a jerk and rolling my eyes at my college girlfriend's claim that it was difficult to get through. Thinking myself superior (I was a different person in college for sure) I had her loan me the book. I think I only got 20% through when I started thinking "how much longer is this thing going to continue!"
Seeing how much I had still to read I conceded her point that it was a horrible read.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Have you ever read a novel and said, I really liked that novel, but I wish it had a 50 page version to give me the gist of the novel?
Yeah, actually - all throughout high school, they're called CliffsNotes.
That's because you didn't like the novel. You just wanted to get through the class that forced you to read a novel that you didn't like. You want shortened versions of things that you dislike so that you can skip doing them. If you dislike a game that you aren't required to play for school or a job, then the sensible thing to do isn't to ask for a shortened version that lets you skip most of it. It's to quit playing the game entirely and go find one that you like better.
hmmm probably/maybe.
For the most part, people using Cliff's Notes are trying to get the main information so they don't have to read the whole book but can pass any tests.
However I'll offer this:
The breakdown, for me, of Wuthering Heights is far more interesting than the actual book. I absolutely could not get through it. And I wasn't reading it for school. I was being a jerk and rolling my eyes at my college girlfriend's claim that it was difficult to get through. Thinking myself superior (I was a different person in college for sure) I had her loan me the book. I think I only got 20% through when I started thinking "how much longer is this thing going to continue!"
Seeing how much I had still to read I conceded her point that it was a horrible read.
Which is to say that you didn't like the novel. Which is my point.
If you assume that the original zone is bad but the streamlined version would be good, then the streamlined version makes sense. But if you can make the streamlined version good, then just make the original zone good. That's far better.
Let me ask you a question, Why do a Raid, if you get nothing from it?
Repayable content is the fact that you can keep killing the same raid boss, or running the same dungeon, and there is always MORE reward you can get from it, or in some cases, it could also be something like a rare drop and you didn't get the one super weapon to rule them all, so you need to run it again and again till you do.
Without such mechanics, once you beat the Big Bad, like every other single player game, game is over and it's time to move on to something else. On top of which, you advocate being able to do on day 1 walking into the game. which not even Single Player games would entertain such an idea as being able to face the final boss on log in.
I mean that would be like being able to read the last page of the last book in a 13 book series, and saying "OK done" and legit.. be done.
When a new expansion comes out, your current gear becomes practically worthless, it's almost immediately replaced by greens. Did that make your raiding worthless? Out of 20+ years of playing games, I can't think of a single time where the items I wore was what made the game engaging to me. I remember how difficult for my vanilla wow guild to do molten core was, we never even made it to Ragnaros.
Gonna be honest, and to mirror what @Wargfoot Said, I think you are playing the wrong games and building your whole outlook from that limited sampling.
The only game I ever played that was like what you described, was EQ.
While I have played a lot of other games in-between EQ and DDO, it was at DDO where I settled down next.
Now, DDO had a very special approach to their loot (Originally) where it was not a simple as a step up in power, where +2 was better than +1.
And while, sure for your generic +1 longsword, a +2 longsword might be better, however, it might not be a good trade to give up your +1 silver longsword for a +2 generic steel longsword, and that ML2, +1 crystal club, called "Muck Bane" , yah.. you might as well lock that away in your inventory and settle in for using that on Rust monsters and oozes, for the rest of your characters life.
Now, DDO, is still a complex great game that does not have the boring ass liner loot system you are describing, even if it does have a very direct level progression (Just like the game of it's namesake) and ML loot tables, but because there are many special abilities that Named gear could have, as well as how stats stacked and worked, which meant you needed to think about what you have on, and what you plan to do with it, and how it works with your build, and with each other piece you have on. It was not always as simple as "This helm is level 10, my old one was level 6, this new helm is better" that kind of thought, does not exist in DDO, even if it does exist in other games.
Just to give an example, Case in point, you could be a 20th level Pale Master Wizard, and still be rocking that 12th level Necklace, because, that Torq of Prince Raiyum-de II had a very unique feature that made your build shine, you also have on your level 14 Shroud of the Abbot, and your level 11 Green Steel Braces of Concord Opposition, because, when it comes to needing spell points, you do not have a problem going full burn and setting the whole place on fire.
This is what Good Loot design is, it makes it so that Specific Loot, becomes desired, that it works for many levels past it's earning point, and while maybe not the have all end all of loot, just like that Necklace might be seen as the best there is, when you start to get into Epics, there are a lot of things that rival it, and make you question if you still want to keep it.. but even with that.. it's never a good idea to get rid of it.
So DDO already has a loot system far better than anything you have come close to explaining. Sure, the loot system you described sucks, and I am going to be dead ass when I say, I wouldn't play games that have that loot system.. and notice.. I don't.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Quizzical said:
That's because you didn't like the novel. You just wanted to get through the class that forced you to read a novel that you didn't like. You want shortened versions of things that you dislike so that you can skip doing them. If you dislike a game that you aren't required to play for school or a job, then the sensible thing to do isn't to ask for a shortened version that lets you skip most of it. It's to quit playing the game entirely and go find one that you like better.
This is a disingenuous argument to make. While the CliffsNotes comment was obviously a joke, at no point did I ever say I didn't like playing the game. What I said it is it becomes tedious to have to wade through an entirely far too deep of a pool in order to find the other players. I've physically seen less than 10 people in any zone outside of a city, and I'm currently level 70. Group content actually exists at the higher end of the level pool because that's where the majority of the player base is, so why would you punish me as a returning player or a new player to suffer alone in solitude for 10s or 100s of hours to simply catch up? The whole appeal of MMORPG is to PLAY WITH OTHER PEOPLE. That's why people buy level potions to instantly hit max level, so they can actually play with the player base.
I get what you're saying, but since every single game is trying to incorporate MMO elements into their games in order to succeed as a live service, the ginormous amount of content necessary to work through is a seemingly endless treadmill until you have actually done it and see places where shortcuts can exist. I can't tell you how many times I had to talk my friend who tried to play FFXIV with me into struggling and suffering to get through the patches from the Realm Reborn story to get to Heavensward (it's something like 154 quests), because he almost quit out of boredom 5 or 6 times alone. What I'm suggesting is that developers create a path to trim the fat, allowing players to experience what the game has to offer without keeping them locked off, and one that doesn't encourage microtransactions - so people can actually PLAY the game WITH the player base.
Have you played Diablo 3 since Seasons were introduced? People, on day one, are asking for powerleveling to 70 so they can start working on the season goals. Even new players do the exact same thing, because that's where the other players are. You can gatekeep all you want about games not catering to instant gratification, but these are games with dying player bases that deserve new infusions of life. You're continually avoiding everything about my fundamental argument with what-ifs. The middle of the game is too bloated. Players are either in the newbie levels because they are making new alts with the new players, or they are at the end game.
You can't seriously want to try to talk someone into avoiding a certain type of game for suggesting that old content can be condensed for a smoother and significantly quicker path to catch up, can you?
I feel that there seems to be systems that work against each other in these older games. On the one hand if FFXIV had kept their MSQ as something you had to go through it was a risky proposition since too many players were already grousing about it and wanting a way to pass it and Square Enix gave them that option. Might have been the wrong thing to do but if you want to attract new players you have to make some changes but this also compromises the quality of both the story and the cohesion the game used to offer.
Then we have a lovely game like Everquest II that had some splendid quests that were really good to do and enjoyable but because the population has dropped you will be stuck soloing them or begging guild members to help run them with you. There is very little palatable options here that don't degrade the quality of the content over speed and the need to level quickly so that you can 'enjoy' the end game.
You cannot tell people ''hey this is the wrong way to play'' because you're not the final arbiter of what is enjoyable for another player. No matter how much I feel that others should be able to enjoy the game like how I did doing all these quests and levelling normally that boat has sailed and taken most of the players to other games or to the end game where they are currently running content in a tight group that a newcomer like @Nanfoodle found hard to break into. Yes the cliques are real and they are worse then some secret university society protecting secrets in some show on TV.
I don't see a solution except starting these games with a dedicated group of friends who are comfortable with going through the game like how it was meant to be played and progressing slowly but if it hits a snag and they start dropping off you might end up soloing again. This here is exactly the reason the restart or time limited servers or various server set ups that allow you to restart the game again and again are so popular. The fact is, a lot of players don't want to skip or take shortcuts they want to play the game but they don't want to do it in isolation, they want other players like how it was when the game launched.
Every new expansion in WoW they spend time trying to make players reinvest in Azeroth and I wonder is it getting harder to be actually involved as time passes.
Something has got to give for the genre to pick up again and make players more than mere spectators in this genre. There are so many great systems and wonderful stories that are just being glossed over in favour of quick advancement that it is almost criminal in execution. I have no answers just a profound sense of sadness for what you wrote in this article because you never got to experience the real Everquest II through no fault of your own and merely because of an accident of time.
Interesting article and thread. Simply having lots of content is not what I'd call bloat, nor would I classify it as being a problem in-and-of-itself. It only poses a problem to certain types of players, but not to everyone.
I also strongly disagree that streamlining old areas is the solution. I feel that if you need to resort to streamlining, then you've not designed your game "properly" in the first place, not anticipated the inevitable problems, so there is little chance that streamlining will go well. In my experience, steamlining a game after release ultimately results in a very different experience and thus fundamentally changes the mentality of the community. The old community and the new are then at odds with one another.
The fundamental issue, in my opinion, is not content bloat, but that most mmorpg designers are designing their games in the same way that they design single player RPGs. We have linear questlines, linear zones, linear progression. Whilst these concepts work really well in a single player game, they suck in a multiplayer game. Why? Because they separate the community, segregating them into tiny little chunks, whilst at the same time making all completed content redunant. That is a terrible design choice for a game that devs want you to play for years with your friends. Just real dumb.
There are a couple of solutions in my mind, though im sure there are more that others have thought of.
If devs want to continue designing MMORPGs in the same way as they do single player games (and there is clearly a market for these types), then they should start treating the lifecycle in the same way. Don't bother with endless expansions. Start doing sequels. Build the game, release, run it for a few years, then release the sequel. Keep the original running in maintenence mode, but release a new game with all new content.
This approach would have many benefits. Each new sequel would bring in a greater number of players than a simple expansion. Devs get to iterate properly on design decisions, rather than being hampered with systems that may have been in place 10+ years ago. New players can get straight in on the action. Devs can move to newer game engines. Only hard thing would be deciding to what to do with the inevitable empty servers of the original. However, im sure some sort of intelligent merging could be done.
The other option is to stop designing mmorpgs like single player games, and embrace the potential of the genre! Design systems that bring players together, rather than separate them. Design content that can be repeated for years, rather than one-and-done. Design quests that can be done in any order, or even repeated, so that it's easy to play with others.
The sandbox model is attempting to move in this direction, but the sandbox model is still in it's infancy. It has never had the investment that the themepark model has, it has never had the AAA treatment, so like most designs in their infancy, it's not yet very good. But, the core idea of designing systems, rather than content, then letting the players have their own fun with those systems is a sound idea, it just needs refinement.
Currently Playing: WAR RoR - Spitt rr7X Black Orc | Scrotling rr6X Squig Herder | Scabrous rr4X Shaman
Quizzical said: That's because you didn't like the novel. You just wanted to get through the class that forced you to read a novel that you didn't like. You want shortened versions of things that you dislike so that you can skip doing them. If you dislike a game that you aren't required to play for school or a job, then the sensible thing to do isn't to ask for a shortened version that lets you skip most of it. It's to quit playing the game entirely and go find one that you like better.
This is a disingenuous argument to make. While the CliffsNotes comment was obviously a joke, at no point did I ever say I didn't like playing the game. What I said it is it becomes tedious to have to wade through an entirely far too deep of a pool in order to find the other players. I've physically seen less than 10 people in any zone outside of a city, and I'm currently level 70. Group content actually exists at the higher end of the level pool because that's where the majority of the player base is, so why would you punish me as a returning player or a new player to suffer alone in solitude for 10s or 100s of hours to simply catch up? The whole appeal of MMORPG is to PLAY WITH OTHER PEOPLE. That's why people buy level potions to instantly hit max level, so they can actually play with the player base.
I get what you're saying, but since every single game is trying to incorporate MMO elements into their games in order to succeed as a live service, the ginormous amount of content necessary to work through is a seemingly endless treadmill until you have actually done it and see places where shortcuts can exist. I can't tell you how many times I had to talk my friend who tried to play FFXIV with me into struggling and suffering to get through the patches from the Realm Reborn story to get to Heavensward (it's something like 154 quests), because he almost quit out of boredom 5 or 6 times alone. What I'm suggesting is that developers create a path to trim the fat, allowing players to experience what the game has to offer without keeping them locked off, and one that doesn't encourage microtransactions - so people can actually PLAY the game WITH the player base.
You can't seriously want to try to talk someone into avoiding a certain type of game for suggesting that old content can be condensed for a smoother and significantly quicker path to catch up, can you?
I don't see why the whole goal is get rid or bypass the content, why not just keep it relevant.
GW2 has a level scaling, where level 80 players can hunt and do events in level 1 zones, including harvesting, jump puzzles, side quests, world bosses and the like, so no zone feels dead, you don't have everyone clustered into the level 80 zones, and stuck there.
The idea is rather brilliant really, as you play, the world expands to you, you can move up to more, harder, content, higher levels, but you can always come back, you can return to finish that Dynamic Event, or complete that Heart, or get that Poi, or vista, and still gain exp, and not stop on anyone else's exp. You can do this WITH everyone else in the area.
Truly a brilliant idea, and I foresee a lot of MMO's working that system going forward.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
ESO totally solved this "problem" by not only level scaling but putting things in each zone that make it worthwhile for anyone of any level to spend time in that zone: new players or lore-loving players to experience the zone's story quests and max gear level players to grind the armor, weapon sets or cosmetic drops unique to the zone.
But ESO is BAD 'cause level scaling sucks.
So lets ignore a solution that actually works and instead trivialize all zones for everyone so that the Johnny-come-lately players can skip all the bother to go play with his friends in the end game grind.
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I don't see why the whole goal is get rid or bypass the content, why not just keep it relevant.
GW2 has a level scaling, where level 80 players can hunt and do events in level 1 zones, including harvesting, jump puzzles, side quests, world bosses and the like, so no zone feels dead, you don't have everyone clustered into the level 80 zones, and stuck there.
The idea is rather brilliant really, as you play, the world expands to you, you can move up to more, harder, content, higher levels, but you can always come back, you can return to finish that Dynamic Event, or complete that Heart, or get that Poi, or vista, and still gain exp, and not stop on anyone else's exp. You can do this WITH everyone else in the area.
Truly a brilliant idea, and I foresee a lot of MMO's working that system going forward.
The reason you end up wanting to bypass content, is because it doesn't go both ways. You can level down and replay out dated content, but you can't jump forward. Why is jumping forward ruining anything?
I still haven't seen anyone argue that keeping content in the game as it is, perpetuated, but allowing players to completely bypass it, ruins the content?
The players who want to go from start to finish in whatever linear path or non-linear path they chose would still be there. The people who want to go straight to present day content can do that also.
Where is the infringement on the players that want to keep this content in its original form? I'm certainly not advocating that old content be removed, I am saying make it optional.
How does that cheat people?
Well a few things.
First, you present the idea that the content is Outdated, Old, Passé, the product of a bygone era.
In short no longer viable.
Well see, this is not the case in GW2, the reason you can down level is because Core content remains viable, you WILL be farming it.
Everything from World Bosses, Map Completion, Harvesting Nodes, Jump Puzzles, Heart Vendors, as well as various Achievements, Side Quests, Etc, Etc, Etc, you will invariably be returning to this content.
Now, if you want to do some of that while leveling up, so you can experience that first time playing awe factor, learn and see your character progress, and just have that "Noob exploring the world" experience, then great. If you want to do it when you are 80th, that's fine too, I'll clue you in, no one cares.
But you will be doing it, regardless.
GW2, is an odd game at its' core, it was designed around the idea of being for players that really didn't want that MMO Grind of games like WoW, and that mindset of thinking making it to max level (80th) is the End Game
GW2 challenged and redefined this idea, and made it so that was when the game really started, and that leveling process, was really nothing more than an extended tutorial so you learn about your class and how the game plays.
Sure they put in some up leveling, like you get Up-leveled for WvW, Fractals, sPvP, and even PvE content like Southsun Cove, and a few other places.
But also, you have to grasp that GW2 also has not raised their level cap, it was 80th when they game started, and 2 expansions later, it is still 80th.
However, many like yourself, still feel that leveling is no doubt a waste of your precious time and skill and needs to be invested into only doing max level stuff.
Well Anet has heard your pleas, and in the venture, to boost sales of their Expansions, and get players into playing the Expansions, Anet, includes with the purchase of the HoT/PoF Expansion pack, a 80th Level Boost, so you can start the game with a shiny level 80 character of your choice, outfitted in level approprate exotic gear, so there is no delay into getting into what you feel is the only fun part of the game.
See look, all your supposed problems solved, poof, just like that.
and done by an 8 year old game I might add.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Sorry if I gave you the impression that I want to destroy your fun, I think that's quite the contrary to my suggestions... I certainly wasn't trying to attack you either.
I wasn't attacking you either, the "you"s were more of a general you
Maybe I should've stopped at the first short post, correcting OP's mount errors and stating that streamlining is never the solution - but it turned out a nice and interesting thread at the end.
See, my issue here ain't with you the endgame mindset, but mainly with streamlining.
In the recent years more and more game modes, content, even entire games (rest in peace, TSW...) were ruined for a lot of players due to it.
You say you don't want to destroy fun, in a later post even
I'm certainly not advocating that old content be removed, I am saying make it optional.
but here's the thing, we're all playing in the same game world.
Streamlining, watering down, call it what you like, is eventually leading to exactly that: changing or straight out removing content, mechanics, etc.
So when you advocate it, asking for it, that really means (even if not directly, and not intentionally) to change the game for a lot of players, to the worse.
Not to mention, as listed earlier, the options for you are already there, several of them... there are plenty of ways for the endgame player to skip, or quickly cut through this imaginary "bloat" - imaginary, since what they see as bloat, it's the game itself for a bunch of other players.
I ain't saying to go and play something else, since every playstyle is valid and has a place within a game and its community.
Import Text: The content up to the latest expansion is the game.
If some players are only interested in the last few % of the game, and see all the rest as just "bloat", that's clearly not the game's issue, that's a personal one. And the solution ain't streamlining the 90% of the game so they could pass through it with more ease...
I see the opposite problem -- a playerbase of MMO gamers who insist that leveling to endgame is something that should be as compressed as possible, and story is avoidable.
End game raids are not the point, to all of us.
I have nine alts in SWTOR (one for each subclass, and an additional lightside sith for funs and giggles). I find that the story is different because I'm reacting in character with each alt. Even the two dark side Warriors are quite different in how they make story choices.
In inception and design, it's a classic Bioware game. Why wouldn't I enjoy it as such?
I don't do social RP generally, but to me this "internal RP" makes an MMO enjoyable with replay value. I hate endgame gear grinds and the idea of three 20 minute dungeons an hour seems like the ultimate soulless grind, rather than good storytelling and slower progression.
I've been playing MMO's since I was 9, starting with Ultima-Online. One of the things I absolutely loved about UO was that it didn't have this problem traditionally. We had new expansions that were added to the game but they served to just extend the reach of the available game and create new and interesting areas to explore, but no new linear progression until later expansions...
You have been playing MMORPG's since you were nine and you only just got here? Welcome to the forums!
Haha, no, I have been a long time lurker here. Usually, I don't get caught up in the forum topics, I just look at the game lists and read articles. But, I've grown rather tired of reddit as it is highly political and the discussions on almost every sub became political. So, here I am. Thank you, hopefully I can contribute in a positive manner.
I don't agree with what you have been saying in this thread but who cares? I know what you mean about Reddit; it went from trash sewer talk, to a decent arena for discussion, to trash political talk all in the space of ten (ish) years, rather ironic really. You put forward a decent argument and that's all any forum can ask for.
First, you present the idea that the content is Outdated, Old, Passé, the product of a bygone era.
In short no longer viable.
Well see, this is not the case in GW2, the reason you can down level is because Core content remains viable, you WILL be farming it.
Everything from World Bosses, Map Completion, Harvesting Nodes, Jump Puzzles, Heart Vendors, as well as various Achievements, Side Quests, Etc, Etc, Etc, you will invariably be returning to this content.
Now, if you want to do some of that while leveling up, so you can experience that first time playing awe factor, learn and see your character progress, and just have that "Noob exploring the world" experience, then great. If you want to do it when you are 80th, that's fine too, I'll clue you in, no one cares.
But you will be doing it, regardless.
GW2, is an odd game at its' core, it was designed around the idea of being for players that really didn't want that MMO Grind of games like WoW, and that mindset of thinking making it to max level (80th) is the End Game
GW2 challenged and redefined this idea, and made it so that was when the game really started, and that leveling process, was really nothing more than an extended tutorial so you learn about your class and how the game plays.
Sure they put in some up leveling, like you get Up-leveled for WvW, Fractals, sPvP, and even PvE content like Southsun Cove, and a few other places.
But also, you have to grasp that GW2 also has not raised their level cap, it was 80th when they game started, and 2 expansions later, it is still 80th.
However, many like yourself, still feel that leveling is no doubt a waste of your precious time and skill and needs to be invested into only doing max level stuff.
Well Anet has heard your pleas, and in the venture, to boost sales of their Expansions, and get players into playing the Expansions, Anet, includes with the purchase of the HoT/PoF Expansion pack, a 80th Level Boost, so you can start the game with a shiny level 80 character of your choice, outfitted in level approprate exotic gear, so there is no delay into getting into what you feel is the only fun part of the game.
See look, all your supposed problems solved, poof, just like that.
and done by an 8 year old game I might add.
Yeah, WoW did the same thing, thus why I play WoW when the new expansions come out and I'm sure I'd enjoy a little bit of GW2 also. I'm not seeing this as a counter argument, you're agreeing with me? Cool.
My only counter point I would make is I played GW2 when it came out, bought a bunch of crafter mats so I could just craft my way to max level bypassing the grind so I could do WvWvW pvp. Wasn't really my cup of tea, didn't have a dedicated group to do it with and it didn't at the time have the awesome stuff DAOC had.
I've seen some really cool videos since then of awesome bomb groups etc, but I've also done some research on that and you can't just plop back into the game, buy a level 80 and whalla you are a badass. There's plenty of stuff you have to unlock and acquire before you can get to that level.
Now the like queued pvp apparently does all that for you based on the necklace and sigils you select which are just given to you, but that's not the case in the open world stuff. Why the difference, I'll never know.
Well being a badass also requires you have the skill and knowhow to play, and since GW2 is not P2W, no, you can't just dump a bunch of money into the game and walla you're a bad ass.
With that bit put aside, So let me see if I have this right.
You don't want to do any kind of progress content, you just want to start at the very max top end of everything?
Well for starters that devalues the whole point of actually playing the game to begin with, and defeats the very core foundation principal of earning what you have.
I mean why the hell even make content to start with if you are not going to give people a reason to play it, seems like a self defeating idea from the get-go.
In this vein, actually playing the game has been THE keynote in MMOs and MUDs since their inception, not to mention RPG games as a whole dating back all the way to the dawn of D&D where the goal was to play the game.
So your desire to not want to actually play the game at all boggles me, and I sincerely think MMO's and RPG in general are not the right platform for you.
That is like sitting down at the Gaming Table, and demanding that the GM to hand you a Max Level Character with all the best gear they could ever hope for, and that is when you expect to start playing, when there is nothing left for you to do.
So you will have to forgive me, if I simply cannot get my mind around that kind of approach to playing a game.
I play games to PLAY the game.
However, GW2. does have a game mode for players like yourself, it's called sPvP, or Structured Player vs Player. Built on the same idea as a FPS just on a MMO platform, where everyone is equaled out. Capped Stats, best gear, everything leveled for the most part, Because lets be real, once you remove all the other means and motives to do anything, all that is really left is killing each other. And GW2, does offer that.
Has the leader board, ranks, and all the other pointless no advantage rewards you could ever hope for in a PvP game.
No diss bro, but if you don't want to play the game, it's the wrong kind of game for you, I mean, just like the whole wrong platform.
That is like someone who trying to play WarHammer 40K Table Top but does not like dealing with miniatures,.. it's just the wrong platform for you, might want to look into Dawn of War to scratch that itch.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
I don't agree with what you have been saying in this thread but who cares? I know what you mean about Reddit; it went from trash sewer talk, to a decent arena for discussion, to trash political talk all in the space of ten (ish) years, rather ironic really. You put forward a decent argument and that's all any forum can ask for.
Well, I certainly don't expect that I will have the same perspective as everyone, and I am definitely an opinionated person, so it's not anything new for me.
That being said, as you state I try to put forward solid arguments. I definitely try to see other perspectives. What I don't understand though is where people disagree with some of my points.
I've seen it stated over and over, if you don't like the game the way it is today, don't play it. Or, I've seen, what you want already exists. But, I've shown how neither is necessary for both of us to win. I'm offering a win win where currently I'm being told it's not possible.
I have yet to see counter arguments to why we can't have a world where both the players who want to experience all a game has to offer, regardless of how dated it is, and players who want to jump straight to the newest, can't both exist.
I love discussion, I like to get into the details, and I want to understand other perspectives.
Modern gaming is like a cuckoo, it pushes everything else out of the nest, you can see this in MMORPG's more clearly than any other genre. But that is not to say I think nothing about modern gaming is good. FPS for example are as good as they were when I first blasted an alien in the 80's, but they are also possibly the genre which has seen the least change. Certainly there are more options, how about playing a solider and mech warrior in the same game? Also they have some of the GAAS nonsense, but overall the gameplay is the same.
Now I would not want MMORPG gameplay to have stayed set in crystal, you will find nearly everyone on here who is not content with modern MMOs wants some sort of hybrid. So we are not asking to go back to the old days, though a "classic" appeals to many, what we are asking for is some thought into what has been lost instead of just cheerleading what has been gained and then how might we rebalance what MMORPG's are?
Consider the Guild Wars 1 vanquishing in hard mode - players go back to zones including early leveling areas. In many cases, the creatures have new abilities at higher levels, so new strategy and management is required. I found this one of the best ways to visually enjoy many of the areas with new challenge and reward.
Eeyore86 said: So, it's not a fair assessment to say I don't like MMO's because I don't like one part of them and then should just "no offense" move on...
Well, ya know, I love FPS, I have logged over 3 THOUSAND hours on Eternal Crusade alone, so obviously I like FPS.
But you know, I never liked that whole needing to mouse target, I think the overall tab targeting or assisted targeting would be a great feature to FPS games, after all, it does not diminish anyone else's skill if they put in the option for some of us to use tab/assisted targeting and others to enjoy their action/mouse targeting.
The huge number of aim bots and other assist programs in FPS games, tends to show that I am very much not alone in the want for assisted targeting (even if I do not use 3rd party software) and the fact that they put it in for consoles and mobile, shows that they understand this market need... so Obviously I am right that they should give all of us the option.
Now, If that sounds a little off to you, that is the sum entirety of your argument.
What you claim not to like about MMO's is a core aspect of the game.
So, just like people that don't like mouse targeting, AKA: Action Combat, should really reconsider their love for FPS games, you also should reconsider your love of MMO if you have an issue with Character Progression.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
What you claim not to like about MMO's is a core aspect of the game.
Not only that, but for some reason seems to ignore the options there...
I really like to "get behind" other mindsets, and even if I don't agree with them at least learn the reason and logic behind them (mostly with success, except the infamous "entry barrier, want ALL the content up front" players from the other thread, I just fail to understand that ), but I start to accept my defeat here, since I can't find logic behind. Like
Well, again, taking WoW for example. Right now, if I made a brand new character, I would have to progress that character through 10 levels of quests which I do not read, nor care to complete. [...] Essentially, it takes me like 3 weeks of dedicated play time, to do what I want to do a few nights a week with my friends.t.
Why, really? Twice, actually,
1) why make an alt the first place? When you clearly don't like, nor care about leveling them up, why not just use your main for the new content?
But fine, everyone has the right to make themselves suffer, so you've rolled a new alt.
2) why start the grind which you don't like nor care about?
Just use the boost on this new alt (sticking to the Wow example, there's one packed with Shadowlands as I hear), and start playing the new content right away.
It's exactly what you want, puts your character at the start of the content, you can have fun with the friends.
I disagree, I think as a game development company your number one goal is to make as much profit as you possibly can, while maintaining as much customer satisfaction as possible.
What they indeed do, that's why almost all of them offer character boosts, or specific in-game mechanics for the rushing, impatient players...
What I am advocating for,
allowing players to pick and choose what content they want to do, and
when, allows for this. If I am a new and returning player to WoW, I get
to buy the latest expansion, create a character that is fully equipped
and ready to go into the newest content. But, I also have the option to
go back to level 1 and start from scratch like everyone else did, and
progress all the way through the game from level 1 to level whatever the
hell.
This is somewhat the case already in WoW, so both of us win to an extent in WoW.
Exactly, and not just in WoW... so, why do you suggest the streamlining? Unless it's the price of the character boost, I really don't understand the notion, since looks like you're aware as well, that it's the case already.
Character progression is actually what keeps me from playing Elder Scrolls Online. I never feel like there's any sense of progression at all since you can just go wherever you want and things are scaled to you, same with GW2.
I appreciate the directive path that other MMORPGs offer, I just wish you could remove some of the arbitrary repetition. Again, you shouldn't have to wade through 75 quests to progress though outdated content when you could just as easily increase the experience so it can be done via the 30 that actually tell/advance the story.
Again, you shouldn't have to wade through 75 quests to progress though outdated content when you could just as easily increase the experience so it can be done via the 30 that actually tell/advance the story.
I agree, you shouldn't.
Question is, you really should? If so, then it ain't the best design - however, besides some eastern games I can't really name any with such mandatory, locked quest design.
If there's no such physical lock, then just jump to the cap through a boost, use quick level mechanics,
powerlevel, use XP boosters, etc. and you can skip as many quests as you
want.
Answer ain't the removal of optional content just because you don't like to do said content...
Again, you shouldn't have to wade through 75 quests to progress though outdated content when you could just as easily increase the experience so it can be done via the 30 that actually tell/advance the story.
I agree, you shouldn't.
Question is, you really should? If so, then it ain't the best design - however, besides some eastern games I can't really name any with such mandatory, locked quest design.
If there's no such physical lock, then just jump to the cap through a boost, use quick level mechanics,
powerlevel, use XP boosters, etc. and you can skip as many quests as you
want.
Answer ain't the removal of optional content just because you don't like to do said content...
I don't want anything removed aside from content that was only really ever there to increase the amount of time it takes to progress. Artificial progression locked behind time is a bad design, but it's understandably necessary so people don't rush through a game's content and quit playing when a game is new. I'm perfectly fine with this content in a game that's just launching - Genshin Impact for example has a ton of grinding that could be cut out, but it's a game that's still building a player base - not a game like EverQuest 2 that's been slowly dying in favor of other games which allow faster or more interesting progression options.
Older established games that have a continually dwindling player base should be streamlined to welcome new players in, and provide them with a more attractive path to catch up with other players, instead of overwhelming them with more content than they'd ever know what to do without looking up guides or asking for help. With every game now adopting the open world without also including the necessary social aspects a MMORPG often demands, players who are anti-social want a path to play and learn before they're forced to join other players who are going to scream at them for not knowing what they are doing already. A problem Final Fantasy XIV suffers from regularly, because people leveling their 12th job are paired up with brand new players running a dungeon for the first time, and instead of teaching/helping, they rage and complain.
That being said, okay, you're suggesting that the CORE point of the game, is to level, is to grind. Then why isn't that what most of the players do? You're arguing as if that is actually what it is, and it isn't. We wouldn't have mods that help us to bypass the leveling process, or purchase auto leveled characters etc if that wasn't so. No one would want to purchase things that allows you to bypass the only reason to play it, it ceases to have a point as you've stated.
Players like me wouldn't even exist, because there would be 0 point or fun or anything of meaning to be gained by skipping the entire point of the game. Yet, so many people do it...
The truth is, that's your ideal of a game, not reality. You seem to want to put everyone back into a single player final fantasy world where once you defeat the end game boss, the game is over.
You still haven't made a single point that actually addresses my ideas, you keep stating that the ONLY reason to play an MMO is your reason, to grind and progress a character. I've clearly demonstrated that there are plenty of other reasons, and I would even argue that more people play for those other reasons than play for your reason.
Further, you seem rather hostile about this as if my existence or my desire to bypass your enjoyment, somehow keeps you from being able to enjoy it... You bypass my enjoyment, and it doesn't effect me in the slightest, why is this so personal to you?
It's not hostility, I am more bamboozled by your request then anything that would constitute being hostile, it's so strange to not want to do the very core feature of what in essence makes an MMORPG an MMORPG.
It's Like seeing a Vegan going to a steak house making a fuss that all the plates have meat on them. Ok.. sure we can make you a veggie platter, and the fact that you want to eat a plate of Side orders does not lessen how much I can enjoy my Side of Lamb, but, I think your missing the whole idea of what going to steak house is all about. If you just wanted to go to a restaurant to eat out, there are a lot better Vegan places for you to hit up.
To put it another way, it's a Square Peg in a Round Hole kind of situation for me, and I just don't see the logic.
Also, Everyone in an MMO is all about Character Progression, you have not in fact given me a single other reason to play an MMO truth be told, and if you can come up with one, that would be kind of novel.
But, with MMO's the whole point of the game is to progress your character, some people get so wrapped up in the aspect of Character Progression that they will go through extreme lengths and even pay real money to speed the process up, but this in no way changes their motive, or what the game is about, which is Character Progression.
So the real question becomes if you don't want to play a game of Character Progression, why are you playing an MMO.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Comments
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
If you assume that the original zone is bad but the streamlined version would be good, then the streamlined version makes sense. But if you can make the streamlined version good, then just make the original zone good. That's far better.
The only game I ever played that was like what you described, was EQ.
While I have played a lot of other games in-between EQ and DDO, it was at DDO where I settled down next.
Now, DDO had a very special approach to their loot (Originally) where it was not a simple as a step up in power, where +2 was better than +1.
And while, sure for your generic +1 longsword, a +2 longsword might be better, however, it might not be a good trade to give up your +1 silver longsword for a +2 generic steel longsword, and that ML2, +1 crystal club, called "Muck Bane" , yah.. you might as well lock that away in your inventory and settle in for using that on Rust monsters and oozes, for the rest of your characters life.
Now, DDO, is still a complex great game that does not have the boring ass liner loot system you are describing, even if it does have a very direct level progression (Just like the game of it's namesake) and ML loot tables, but because there are many special abilities that Named gear could have, as well as how stats stacked and worked, which meant you needed to think about what you have on, and what you plan to do with it, and how it works with your build, and with each other piece you have on. It was not always as simple as "This helm is level 10, my old one was level 6, this new helm is better" that kind of thought, does not exist in DDO, even if it does exist in other games.
Just to give an example, Case in point, you could be a 20th level Pale Master Wizard, and still be rocking that 12th level Necklace, because, that Torq of Prince Raiyum-de II had a very unique feature that made your build shine, you also have on your level 14 Shroud of the Abbot, and your level 11 Green Steel Braces of Concord Opposition, because, when it comes to needing spell points, you do not have a problem going full burn and setting the whole place on fire.
This is what Good Loot design is, it makes it so that Specific Loot, becomes desired, that it works for many levels past it's earning point, and while maybe not the have all end all of loot, just like that Necklace might be seen as the best there is, when you start to get into Epics, there are a lot of things that rival it, and make you question if you still want to keep it.. but even with that.. it's never a good idea to get rid of it.
So DDO already has a loot system far better than anything you have come close to explaining. Sure, the loot system you described sucks, and I am going to be dead ass when I say, I wouldn't play games that have that loot system.. and notice.. I don't.
I get what you're saying, but since every single game is trying to incorporate MMO elements into their games in order to succeed as a live service, the ginormous amount of content necessary to work through is a seemingly endless treadmill until you have actually done it and see places where shortcuts can exist. I can't tell you how many times I had to talk my friend who tried to play FFXIV with me into struggling and suffering to get through the patches from the Realm Reborn story to get to Heavensward (it's something like 154 quests), because he almost quit out of boredom 5 or 6 times alone. What I'm suggesting is that developers create a path to trim the fat, allowing players to experience what the game has to offer without keeping them locked off, and one that doesn't encourage microtransactions - so people can actually PLAY the game WITH the player base.
Have you played Diablo 3 since Seasons were introduced? People, on day one, are asking for powerleveling to 70 so they can start working on the season goals. Even new players do the exact same thing, because that's where the other players are. You can gatekeep all you want about games not catering to instant gratification, but these are games with dying player bases that deserve new infusions of life. You're continually avoiding everything about my fundamental argument with what-ifs. The middle of the game is too bloated. Players are either in the newbie levels because they are making new alts with the new players, or they are at the end game.
You can't seriously want to try to talk someone into avoiding a certain type of game for suggesting that old content can be condensed for a smoother and significantly quicker path to catch up, can you?
Then we have a lovely game like Everquest II that had some splendid quests that were really good to do and enjoyable but because the population has dropped you will be stuck soloing them or begging guild members to help run them with you. There is very little palatable options here that don't degrade the quality of the content over speed and the need to level quickly so that you can 'enjoy' the end game.
You cannot tell people ''hey this is the wrong way to play'' because you're not the final arbiter of what is enjoyable for another player. No matter how much I feel that others should be able to enjoy the game like how I did doing all these quests and levelling normally that boat has sailed and taken most of the players to other games or to the end game where they are currently running content in a tight group that a newcomer like @Nanfoodle found hard to break into. Yes the cliques are real and they are worse then some secret university society protecting secrets in some show on TV.
I don't see a solution except starting these games with a dedicated group of friends who are comfortable with going through the game like how it was meant to be played and progressing slowly but if it hits a snag and they start dropping off you might end up soloing again. This here is exactly the reason the restart or time limited servers or various server set ups that allow you to restart the game again and again are so popular. The fact is, a lot of players don't want to skip or take shortcuts they want to play the game but they don't want to do it in isolation, they want other players like how it was when the game launched.
Every new expansion in WoW they spend time trying to make players reinvest in Azeroth and I wonder is it getting harder to be actually involved as time passes.
Something has got to give for the genre to pick up again and make players more than mere spectators in this genre. There are so many great systems and wonderful stories that are just being glossed over in favour of quick advancement that it is almost criminal in execution. I have no answers just a profound sense of sadness for what you wrote in this article because you never got to experience the real Everquest II through no fault of your own and merely because of an accident of time.
GW2 has a level scaling, where level 80 players can hunt and do events in level 1 zones, including harvesting, jump puzzles, side quests, world bosses and the like, so no zone feels dead, you don't have everyone clustered into the level 80 zones, and stuck there.
The idea is rather brilliant really, as you play, the world expands to you, you can move up to more, harder, content, higher levels, but you can always come back, you can return to finish that Dynamic Event, or complete that Heart, or get that Poi, or vista, and still gain exp, and not stop on anyone else's exp. You can do this WITH everyone else in the area.
Truly a brilliant idea, and I foresee a lot of MMO's working that system going forward.
But ESO is BAD 'cause level scaling sucks.
So lets ignore a solution that actually works and instead trivialize all zones for everyone so that the Johnny-come-lately players can skip all the bother to go play with his friends in the end game grind.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
First, you present the idea that the content is Outdated, Old, Passé, the product of a bygone era.
In short no longer viable.
Well see, this is not the case in GW2, the reason you can down level is because Core content remains viable, you WILL be farming it.
Everything from World Bosses, Map Completion, Harvesting Nodes, Jump Puzzles, Heart Vendors, as well as various Achievements, Side Quests, Etc, Etc, Etc, you will invariably be returning to this content.
Now, if you want to do some of that while leveling up, so you can experience that first time playing awe factor, learn and see your character progress, and just have that "Noob exploring the world" experience, then great. If you want to do it when you are 80th, that's fine too, I'll clue you in, no one cares.
But you will be doing it, regardless.
GW2, is an odd game at its' core, it was designed around the idea of being for players that really didn't want that MMO Grind of games like WoW, and that mindset of thinking making it to max level (80th) is the End Game
GW2 challenged and redefined this idea, and made it so that was when the game really started, and that leveling process, was really nothing more than an extended tutorial so you learn about your class and how the game plays.
Sure they put in some up leveling, like you get Up-leveled for WvW, Fractals, sPvP, and even PvE content like Southsun Cove, and a few other places.
But also, you have to grasp that GW2 also has not raised their level cap, it was 80th when they game started, and 2 expansions later, it is still 80th.
However, many like yourself, still feel that leveling is no doubt a waste of your precious time and skill and needs to be invested into only doing max level stuff.
Well Anet has heard your pleas, and in the venture, to boost sales of their Expansions, and get players into playing the Expansions, Anet, includes with the purchase of the HoT/PoF Expansion pack, a 80th Level Boost, so you can start the game with a shiny level 80 character of your choice, outfitted in level approprate exotic gear, so there is no delay into getting into what you feel is the only fun part of the game.
See look, all your supposed problems solved, poof, just like that.
and done by an 8 year old game I might add.
End game raids are not the point, to all of us.
I have nine alts in SWTOR (one for each subclass, and an additional lightside sith for funs and giggles). I find that the story is different because I'm reacting in character with each alt. Even the two dark side Warriors are quite different in how they make story choices.
In inception and design, it's a classic Bioware game. Why wouldn't I enjoy it as such?
I don't do social RP generally, but to me this "internal RP" makes an MMO enjoyable with replay value. I hate endgame gear grinds and the idea of three 20 minute dungeons an hour seems like the ultimate soulless grind, rather than good storytelling and slower progression.
Well being a badass also requires you have the skill and knowhow to play, and since GW2 is not P2W, no, you can't just dump a bunch of money into the game and walla you're a bad ass.
With that bit put aside, So let me see if I have this right.
You don't want to do any kind of progress content, you just want to start at the very max top end of everything?
Well for starters that devalues the whole point of actually playing the game to begin with, and defeats the very core foundation principal of earning what you have.
I mean why the hell even make content to start with if you are not going to give people a reason to play it, seems like a self defeating idea from the get-go.
In this vein, actually playing the game has been THE keynote in MMOs and MUDs since their inception, not to mention RPG games as a whole dating back all the way to the dawn of D&D where the goal was to play the game.
So your desire to not want to actually play the game at all boggles me, and I sincerely think MMO's and RPG in general are not the right platform for you.
That is like sitting down at the Gaming Table, and demanding that the GM to hand you a Max Level Character with all the best gear they could ever hope for, and that is when you expect to start playing, when there is nothing left for you to do.
So you will have to forgive me, if I simply cannot get my mind around that kind of approach to playing a game.
I play games to PLAY the game.
However, GW2. does have a game mode for players like yourself, it's called sPvP, or Structured Player vs Player. Built on the same idea as a FPS just on a MMO platform, where everyone is equaled out. Capped Stats, best gear, everything leveled for the most part, Because lets be real, once you remove all the other means and motives to do anything, all that is really left is killing each other. And GW2, does offer that.
Has the leader board, ranks, and all the other pointless no advantage rewards you could ever hope for in a PvP game.
No diss bro, but if you don't want to play the game, it's the wrong kind of game for you, I mean, just like the whole wrong platform.
That is like someone who trying to play WarHammer 40K Table Top but does not like dealing with miniatures,.. it's just the wrong platform for you, might want to look into Dawn of War to scratch that itch.
Now I would not want MMORPG gameplay to have stayed set in crystal, you will find nearly everyone on here who is not content with modern MMOs wants some sort of hybrid. So we are not asking to go back to the old days, though a "classic" appeals to many, what we are asking for is some thought into what has been lost instead of just cheerleading what has been gained and then how might we rebalance what MMORPG's are?
But you know, I never liked that whole needing to mouse target, I think the overall tab targeting or assisted targeting would be a great feature to FPS games, after all, it does not diminish anyone else's skill if they put in the option for some of us to use tab/assisted targeting and others to enjoy their action/mouse targeting.
The huge number of aim bots and other assist programs in FPS games, tends to show that I am very much not alone in the want for assisted targeting (even if I do not use 3rd party software) and the fact that they put it in for consoles and mobile, shows that they understand this market need... so Obviously I am right that they should give all of us the option.
Now, If that sounds a little off to you, that is the sum entirety of your argument.
What you claim not to like about MMO's is a core aspect of the game.
So, just like people that don't like mouse targeting, AKA: Action Combat, should really reconsider their love for FPS games, you also should reconsider your love of MMO if you have an issue with Character Progression.
I appreciate the directive path that other MMORPGs offer, I just wish you could remove some of the arbitrary repetition. Again, you shouldn't have to wade through 75 quests to progress though outdated content when you could just as easily increase the experience so it can be done via the 30 that actually tell/advance the story.
Older established games that have a continually dwindling player base should be streamlined to welcome new players in, and provide them with a more attractive path to catch up with other players, instead of overwhelming them with more content than they'd ever know what to do without looking up guides or asking for help. With every game now adopting the open world without also including the necessary social aspects a MMORPG often demands, players who are anti-social want a path to play and learn before they're forced to join other players who are going to scream at them for not knowing what they are doing already. A problem Final Fantasy XIV suffers from regularly, because people leveling their 12th job are paired up with brand new players running a dungeon for the first time, and instead of teaching/helping, they rage and complain.
It's Like seeing a Vegan going to a steak house making a fuss that all the plates have meat on them. Ok.. sure we can make you a veggie platter, and the fact that you want to eat a plate of Side orders does not lessen how much I can enjoy my Side of Lamb, but, I think your missing the whole idea of what going to steak house is all about. If you just wanted to go to a restaurant to eat out, there are a lot better Vegan places for you to hit up.
To put it another way, it's a Square Peg in a Round Hole kind of situation for me, and I just don't see the logic.
Also, Everyone in an MMO is all about Character Progression, you have not in fact given me a single other reason to play an MMO truth be told, and if you can come up with one, that would be kind of novel.
But, with MMO's the whole point of the game is to progress your character, some people get so wrapped up in the aspect of Character Progression that they will go through extreme lengths and even pay real money to speed the process up, but this in no way changes their motive, or what the game is about, which is Character Progression.
So the real question becomes if you don't want to play a game of Character Progression, why are you playing an MMO.