Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Quick Links
Flags in MMO's. (Bypassing Content)
Ungood
Member LegendaryPosts: 7,534
Ok, so it seems to be an ongoing theme to hear people cry about some feature or aspect of the game they do not like, and expect that it only makes sense that they should be allowed to bypass or ignore this aspect of the game.
And really, it varies, everything from not wanting to level, to not wanting to deal with the game consequences, to whatever.
Ok, well I am going to start by saying "No"
Flags are not good in an MMO, I have always been and will always be an advocate for finding an MMO that has the features that you want to play, and play that. If that means we are all playing various different MMO's, then so be it. But I would rather that, then put in these flags or ability for players to bypass what might be a care part or aspect of the game.
That is like going to into a Full Loot Open World PvP Game, and saying "I don't want to PvP, it just makes sense that I should be allowed to play this game and not need to PvP"
Ok, I think we all have in fact heard that one, and I think we all disagree with the whole idea behind it. Equally so, I have my own gripes against game makers that do not make the kind of game they are sellign very clear to those that plan to play, like BDO's little BS plan of post 50th being PvP, or Mortal saying "Optional PvP" when it is clearly not optional.
But if I join a game like Crowfall, I might only be attracted to the crafting aspect of the game, but the PvP is a huge part of the game and I should not be given some flag to opt out of the PvP.
And while Some games handle having PvP better than others, like Trove for example, the PvP is it's own thing, their PvP has it's own maps, leaderboards, gear, everything is set apart from the PvE part of the game. GW2 does this as well. Ok, so that is not a flag, that is a choice.
But I think we all can agree that direct flags for content do not work. If you want to play a PvE only game, find one and play that, or at the very least, find a game that allows you to remain in a specific kind of content, like Trove, GW2, etc. Equally so, if you want to play an Open World Sandbox Full Loot PvP game, then, go find that.
Don't try to make something into what it is not. This is the death of games.
And I think we can all agree, that some of us simply have incompatible desires from a game and should not be trying to play the same game to start with, and are much better off playing out own separate games.
Now lets move to the aspect of Not-Playing the game.
This is not like a flag, a flag is when you don't want to have to deal with something that is a part of the game, like not wanting to deal with PvP, is a flag.
This is where you want the rewards from a game or it's content, but do not want to do said content. Ergo, you want to Not-Play the game.
This is also not the same of simply not taking part in something, Like if you go into a game, and it's very raid focused, like Dungeons and Dragons Online is a heavy raid focused game, and you don't want to raid, Alright, well, you don't have to raid, it's there is you want to, but it's not required, but also, you need to grasp that you will not be getting any of the rewards from the raids.
Now in the world of Cash Shops, I can fully understand Developers being unwilling to pass up on the bankroll of taking advantage of the impatience of their player base, who want the rewards and not need to play the game for them. Like Selling Game Items, gold, power leveling, etc, and the like, has been the staple of gold farmers and anyone else looking to make a buck off their game time for decades, so I can't fault a game company cashing in on that action.
But at the same time, expecting to be able to bypass the content without any kind of effort or cost seems totally naive'.
Also, for those that support the idea of bypassing content, explain to me how it works, where if we could win the game without playing the game, what is the motive to play the game?
I mean, ideally a part of playing the game is to compete with other players, to enjoy the journey with them, but, if we could all be in the winners circle day 1, with the best of everything, why would we bother to play the game?
And really, it varies, everything from not wanting to level, to not wanting to deal with the game consequences, to whatever.
Ok, well I am going to start by saying "No"
Flags are not good in an MMO, I have always been and will always be an advocate for finding an MMO that has the features that you want to play, and play that. If that means we are all playing various different MMO's, then so be it. But I would rather that, then put in these flags or ability for players to bypass what might be a care part or aspect of the game.
That is like going to into a Full Loot Open World PvP Game, and saying "I don't want to PvP, it just makes sense that I should be allowed to play this game and not need to PvP"
Ok, I think we all have in fact heard that one, and I think we all disagree with the whole idea behind it. Equally so, I have my own gripes against game makers that do not make the kind of game they are sellign very clear to those that plan to play, like BDO's little BS plan of post 50th being PvP, or Mortal saying "Optional PvP" when it is clearly not optional.
But if I join a game like Crowfall, I might only be attracted to the crafting aspect of the game, but the PvP is a huge part of the game and I should not be given some flag to opt out of the PvP.
And while Some games handle having PvP better than others, like Trove for example, the PvP is it's own thing, their PvP has it's own maps, leaderboards, gear, everything is set apart from the PvE part of the game. GW2 does this as well. Ok, so that is not a flag, that is a choice.
But I think we all can agree that direct flags for content do not work. If you want to play a PvE only game, find one and play that, or at the very least, find a game that allows you to remain in a specific kind of content, like Trove, GW2, etc. Equally so, if you want to play an Open World Sandbox Full Loot PvP game, then, go find that.
Don't try to make something into what it is not. This is the death of games.
And I think we can all agree, that some of us simply have incompatible desires from a game and should not be trying to play the same game to start with, and are much better off playing out own separate games.
Now lets move to the aspect of Not-Playing the game.
This is not like a flag, a flag is when you don't want to have to deal with something that is a part of the game, like not wanting to deal with PvP, is a flag.
This is where you want the rewards from a game or it's content, but do not want to do said content. Ergo, you want to Not-Play the game.
This is also not the same of simply not taking part in something, Like if you go into a game, and it's very raid focused, like Dungeons and Dragons Online is a heavy raid focused game, and you don't want to raid, Alright, well, you don't have to raid, it's there is you want to, but it's not required, but also, you need to grasp that you will not be getting any of the rewards from the raids.
Now in the world of Cash Shops, I can fully understand Developers being unwilling to pass up on the bankroll of taking advantage of the impatience of their player base, who want the rewards and not need to play the game for them. Like Selling Game Items, gold, power leveling, etc, and the like, has been the staple of gold farmers and anyone else looking to make a buck off their game time for decades, so I can't fault a game company cashing in on that action.
But at the same time, expecting to be able to bypass the content without any kind of effort or cost seems totally naive'.
Also, for those that support the idea of bypassing content, explain to me how it works, where if we could win the game without playing the game, what is the motive to play the game?
I mean, ideally a part of playing the game is to compete with other players, to enjoy the journey with them, but, if we could all be in the winners circle day 1, with the best of everything, why would we bother to play the game?
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
![[Deleted User]](http://w8.vanillicon.com/v2/8187bdfebcad0c6fe557549abc3ef848.svg)
Comments
Often a players wishes might very well step on the wishes of others,so then what?The perfect example is pvp,maybe one day i want to go out and work my garden but some other players have pvp in mind and want to attack me.We can't both have it our own way.
The point is that decisions in game design are not steadfast,they must be thought about and take into consideration BOTH sides of the fence.
IMO there are most certainly some ideas put in place to merely slow down players because the devs don't want to feel pressured into creating more content at a pace they can't keep up.
I guess the simple common sense way of looking at design ideas is it should not matter to the individual,it matters to the developer who HOPEFULLY had a complete design idea from day 1 and sticks with it without outside influence or interference.
These are NOT our games,we simply have the choice to play them or not and it should be left that way.Even if for example the develoepr 2 years later asks for some input on the game direction or current design,you are guaranteed to piss off a portion of the player base who is happy with the way it is.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Just a trend I have noticed, for.. sadly. Quite some Time, going back at least as far as to the discussions of New World with people asking for PvP flags and such.
I legit could not care less if OW PvP games are being made, and I mean that as I said it, OW PvP games are at the absolute bottom of my give a shit list.
It seems however, that due to some crusade you have going on, on some topic that I have not read, because it is about a game (or games) I do not play and thus do not give a shit about, you have totally missed the whole point of my original post.
But, thanks for trying anyway.
Themepark MMO's. AFIK, this is not an Opt-Out Flag, akin to being able to opt-out of PvP, this is just the content being optional, and you as the player not doing it.
And even then, not all Themepark MMO's give you this, like in FFXIV, I could not opt out of the story, I had to follow it, in fact, I could not side step it either, and just run off and do my own thing, it was a game very much on rails, reminded me of Archeage, Aion, and Riders Icarus.
I was stuck doing, what felt like an endless tutorial.
In other games like GW2, for example, it didn't seem to make much difference in my Overall Gameplay if I did anything regarding the story past the opening very basic tutorial.
This of course changed, when I had to do story parts to access the Expansions, which were required.
Equally so, in GW2, if you do not do the story, you cannot get anything from the story based content.
Case in point, if you want to get a Skyscale, you need to complete the PoF Living World Story.
While you don't need either the skyscale or the story to enjoy the game, IF you want the skyscale, you have to do the story.
This is a great example of people who want to bypass the content. I'll be honest, No, I didn't want to have to do the story to start the Mount Collection, but that was what was required, so, I did it.
But this is not an Opt-Out flag, this is simply not doing something, and in turn not getting the rewards for it.
Just like I knew some players in EQ1 that ever left the Freeport area, they never traveled to the Karana's, or set foot in Qeynos, this is not an Opt-Out flag, this is simply not doing something in game.
This goes to leveling, now, leveling in EQ, was a HUGE part of the game, it was this massive aspect of the game as a whole, and in DDO leveling is also a massive part of the game, and if you plan to bypass it, well it will cost you, as SSG sells Otto's Stones for the Impatient person. But since leveling is a huge part of the game, this service does not come free, cheap on the other hand is a matter of perception.
Now, Leveling in GW2 is super fast, everything gives EXP, and you will barely experience half the game by the time you level cap, really for the most part getting to 80th in GW2 is like an open world tutorial of the game to learn your class, see the game world, do some story, get your ego stroked as the great one and only dragon slayer, yay go you! Also helps you get a feel for the game as you gain new skills, abilities, learn about armor, weapon options, underwater combat, and the like. As well as often giving you plenty of loot for the journey.
GW2 leveling is something you could do for fun, and IMHO only something for the first time playing the game. After you cap your first toon, you can start to earn leveling tomes (Of which I have around 800 or so) so you would never need to level an alt again, if you don't want to. They also take the approach that the game starts at level 80, so, yah, leveling is not a thing for that game, and true to form, they give away a free level 80 boost, with the purchase of the expansion, so you can bypass that whole tutorial process and get to the expansion content day 1.
However, wanting a game to be what it is, as it is, is not the same as wanting a specific kind of game to be made.
Case in point,
let's say for example: Let's say I think OW PvP games are the devils anus, and never want to play them. That in no way means I want them to be made with Flags so some people can PvP and others don't. If the Game is supposed to be OW PvP, that is what it should be, and If I do not want to deal with that, I should make myself content to not play it.
To use another example: Let's say I think that games with choregraphed ground marks to show where I am targeting are the devils anus, and never want to play them. This does not mean I think I should be given some flag to turn them off so that others can't see my actions. I need to accept that is the way the game is played, and and If I do not want to deal with that, I should make myself content to not play it.
To use another Example: let's I think that games with mounts are the devils anus, and never want to play them. This does not mean I think I should be given some flag to turn them off. I need to accept that is a part of the game, and and If I do not want to deal with that, I should make myself content to not play it.
It's not a hard concept to grasp.
That plan where you Level UP in GW2, was the best system I have ever seen, as you level the world grows for you that first time, you up, you feel like you are progressing. You gain skills, Abilities, Attacks, Traits, even the number of stats on your armor increases as you level up and upgrade, all of which combined, making you feel more powerful even when you go to down leveled zones, so you feel like you are at max level, you feel stronger than you were going through it at level, but not so much so that you feel out of sync with the content as a whole like many other games.
I have to say that was the best way I have ever seen level scaling done, when I did ESO, with up leveling, I just didn't feel any progress, it was like.. why am I doing this again? and IMHO, that took away from my journey to explore the game, and makes the whole leveling process feel worthless, But in GW2, that first time going through it, was a fun journey, and really gives you a feel for the game, that first walkthrough as it were, and true brainchild move by Anet.
In EQ1, having separate Servers for PvP and PvE, worked great for them, in fact, it very well may have set the stage for other games to follow that system.
I wager in a game like Crowfall which is built around the whole idea of Realms vs Realms battles, making a PvE server might be rather pointless.
Equally so, in DDO, which is a PvE focused dungeon running game, making a PvP server seems like a really bad idea, but that has not stopped some people from asking for it.
If you're talking about using your wallet to avoid leveling, well it's something I judgmentally look down on but if I'm being honest with myself I admit that it really isn't much different than avoiding crafting or PvP in games that have PvE and PvP separate. We all enjoy different things and some things a lot more than others.
If you're talking about PvP flagging, I dislike that system and see it as a kludge. I much prefer DAoC-style separate PvP zones.
But at any rate I think that hyper-focusing an MMO to appeal only to a narrow clientele is actually a very stupid decision by a developer. It makes one hell of a lot more financial sense to make the extra effort and include well-developed systems for different types of players in a way that you can make up your own mind what to do and what to skip.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
UO had opt in for Chaos/Order which was additional pvp. Basically there was normal PVP in the cities with safe zones around most banks, but you could Opt-In to additional Faction PVP where you could fight others without worrying about guards killing you in town. People showed up with different colors while flagged.
I never heard people complaining about this.
Ark started as PVP but now they cater to a ton of PVE. PVE is a huge part of that game now and is still very popular.
I think its important that the community give feedback to the Devs. Sometimes devs have no clue WTF they doing. Look at Atlas and Ark, the Devs totally gave up on ARK and went full tilt to new game Atlas PVP, even so much as saying they would stop developing ARK, about a year later after Atlas is flailing, they went back to ARK and are eating crow and refocused on ARK the cash cow.
What you seem to be saying is if you don't like something in a game you just bend over and accept it. Seems very Beta to me.
I didn't play on a PVE server but the populations on the PVE servers were always high.
Wurm was PVP focused but when they would open up PVE servers, those would always be extremely popular.
Is there even a PVP game that had separate PVE and PVP servers and the PVE servers failed due to lack of population before the PVP server? I honestly don't know, I am curious.
Because it is in such stark contrast to how I engage MMO's.
I go all in on the games I like.
Like for Example, in DDO, I do all the game content, even the player run stuff, like favor and loot farms, etc. I am all in on that. There is nothing in DDO that I don't play, even that super annoying dungeon that everyone hates.. yah.. I've done it, more than once. And Ok, I admit, the crafting system, which was shoehorned in and everyone who was there watched that train-wreck unfold, even knowing this was a mess, I still have a designated crafter in DDO, even if I barely ever use that game feature it in a functional sense. I am still into it.
Same with Trove. I did it all, level grinding, mount farming, dragon hunting, I did farming, building, I even bought my own private Club World just to play with the non-combat stuff. Everything Trove had, I was into, all of it. There was nothing I was willing to get involved in, even their fortnight rip off, called Bomber Royal, I jumped into that as well.
Same with GW2, up to Hot. I was in all that stuff, map exploration, crafting, dungeons, world bosses, fractals, guild missions, living world, living story, personal story, WvW, sPvP, I was into all of it. I man originally, GW2 did quite well to link it all together, like I needed WvW maps to get Map Completion, so, I jumped into that like a Hungry Pit Bull on a Fresh Twinkie, it was part of the game, and I was there to play it.
Same with EQ. I did all the game could offer me.
So going to into an MMO and being like "Yah, I just wanna grow Turnips".. I don't get it.
How does that work?
If you don't like what they are doing, Flip 'em the bird and walk away, and find someone that gives you what you want.
To use your expressions, I actually think it's very Beta to hang around game and bending over and accepting it, while crying for things to change with no promise or hope that they will.
Think of this way, using your Example of Ark vs Atlas, the Devs didn't get the clue when Ark players hung around bending over and accepting it, while asking for change, it did the reverse, it gave the Devs a feeling of power and control, and that they could treat their players like trash. On the flip side, They got the clue when the Atlas players flipped them the bird and left.
Let me know what you find out.
No my only option to be part of the noise crowd, voice my displeasure, leave when something better comes along. Maybe they fix it if enough people complain.
a Bunch of people swarmed the GW2 forums, and made a huge fuss that the game needed raids and harder, more challenging content.
Well, Anet responded with HoT, where the maps (originally) were quite hard, with a lot of generic mobs having break bars, content was not easy, and they of course added raids.
Now while some cried that the Open world and Story in HoT sucked and was too hard, what really got everyone's attention was the Raids.
When HoT launched and they added Raids, and on top of that put Legendary Armor behind the raid content, so if you wanted that armor, you had to raid. Well, for an MMO marketing itself as the MMO for everyone else, this should have been a no-brainer bad idea brewing, and never should have happened. Well it happened and a bunch of casuals/moderates came out of the wood-work and told them, "Do not do this".. I mean a bunch of people with a post history of something like 4 posts, and 3 of which were "here is a screenshot of my sexy ranger" were suddenly saying "Do not do this!"
The forums exploded, and much rage and hate, and clashing between the raid lovers and any opposition to their beloved content.
Well... Anet made their choice, banned some people from their forums, and IIRC, The forums went kinda quiet after that.
I think the Outcry lasted a grand total of like 2 months.
That was when the bleeding started.
The following year they went down to their lowest points in earning they had ever seen, they lost an estimated near to 4 million per quarter in sales vs their Pre-Hot quarterly earnings.
Now as you can imagine this threw up all kinds of red flags, people started to quit, they ended up laying off half their staff, head developers walked out, it was a solid reality-show episode of "We dun fucked up"
Now, if people kept playing and simply opted to not buy anything, or if they quit, that I do not know. The fact that Mike O came out and said they needed to change how the store worked to gouge players to make real money, pretty much made it clear they pissed off their wrong demographic.
Sadly, no one was talking anymore. No one was making demands. No one was crying for things to change.
and their income is still dropping.
In short, it's an effective tool to walk away. And while it would great to try and stage a protest, often times as more and more people realize the free time they have to play games is not worth being spent on games that will not respect them, the more people will use this tactic and it just becomes organic, and a force that companies will legit worry about.
As far as money goes. Well cash shops make things fascinating.
The numbers are old, they were done in HoT era, but they work out to the idea that in GW2, they make 15 per player, per quarter, or roughly $10 every 2 months. That is if every player buys something.
We all know this not true, and people like myself that spent 20 a month, carried many others, and I was not this big ass spender, as I knew friends that spent 100 monthly. What this means is that a huge portion of the players are not real-money profitable.
So if they lose 20% of their total population, but if that was freeloaders, or minimal spenders, it is nowhere near as crippling as losing as little as 5% of the paying players.
This is a lesion that MMO's as they come into the future are going to need to learn, gone are the days of subs when everyone was equal, MMO's with cash shops are going to need to really start paying attention to who is spending the money, why they are spending it, and how to keep them around.
And those people are the ones they will worry about flipping them the bird and walking away.
But it's still a sound tactic. Just find the game that pisses you off the least, and put money into that.
If they have half a brain, they will strive to find more ways to keep you around, not put in shit you don't like.
They might benefit more building a means to allow crafters to exist in more PvE focused zones, (safe zones?) but, from what I remember, killing harvesters/crafters and taking their supplies for your own crafters was a actual talked about tactic in Crowfall.
So I think splitting the PvE and PvP in that game would be pretty hard, which is why I used it as an example where I don't think making PvE & PvP servers would work.
I assume somewhat similar to how EvE works.. but I never played EvE, so I don't know.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Level Grinding is boring and useless
Philosophy of MMO Game Design