Nothing disappoints me more than finding out that people just skip dialogue or find reading a chore and one they'd rather not do. You hear people say that they hate lines of texts they have to read in a game. My son used to read a lot as a young child and he does not read a single book any more. It's so sad for me as a parent who loves to read to see him do no reading.
Cheyane, you are such a cool parent. Although, I feel like if I gave up on reading now I will be condemned to death. I think this is how my father feels, too... He is an avid reader himself, and he tends to look at me with disapproving side glances whenever he catches me enjoying something that isn't "books". Other than that, he is very accepting of me and my siblings hobbies, even if they're not as "highbrow" as his. I often have arguments with him about that... "Videogames are fun, dad! And they deserve to exist, just like books do!" He does, however, agree with me that books are also "just another form of entertainment", like videogames and movies are. Just because you "read books" doesn't necessarily mean you're "smarter"! I don't doubt they enhance your imagination and intelligence, but imagination and intelligence isn't everything... Do you think people in the past were dumber than us? I don't think so. I wager there are a lot more of them who outsmart me in many ways. I couldn't repair a bike if it saved my life, but that's probably on me...
The irony I guess is that he probably reads more chats on Discord than he has books in over a decade. I am constantly on a book. I am always reading and I love good stories in games and I often reread stuff I enjoy and my husband and I are avid readers. I am currently rereading Revelation Space on the second one now Redemption Ark while my husband is reading about plagues in history.
I don't know how old your son is, but perhaps it could have something to do with his age...? I think children are more busy with establishing long-term relationships and pecking the social order than chasing after intellectual pursuits. Part of that is engaging as much as possible with others... I know, it sounds awful, but maybe it's a good thing that your son is trying to spend time with his friends over material things? I'm sure when he becomes old enough he'll turn back to reading books again. I know I have. Of course, I'm not a child psychologist, as I am looking for one myself... But from my own experience, I can say that as a kid you're not necessarily preoccupied with learning. At least, not always...
What has happened to us that we consider reading a chore now and it's become fashionable to skip reading even in games that are heavily based on roleplaying and has a massive interesting story. It's really sad for me as a person when I meet young people who think spelling badly and confessing to not reading is a badge of pride.
Stupidity should never be worn as a "badge of pride"! That's a very astute observation, and a very sad one indeed. I'm afraid that society has crippled thus far, that's why IQs are dropping down everywhere. Look at all the "Keeping Up With The Kardashians" and "Geordie Shore" bull that's being presented to the masses on daily basis. How is that normal? I'll admit to also having a lower "concentration" threshold than I did when I was younger... I could consume many books and magazines at once without batting an eyelash. I do still read books occasionally, but they're very specific to my interests... I do miss the days where I could just pick up a random book and be content with it... I do think a large part of it is due to growing up, though. Becoming more discriminate and selective about what you read. You don't want to waste too much time on something that is worthless in its essence, like my posts. DO NOT GET SUCKED INTO MY VORTEX OF SILLY NONSENSE! YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED!
And the the less the young read the more they think they know, strange that.
I woul disagree with this. Just because you READ does not magically turn you into an all-knowing unicorn. I've met a lot of "stupid" intelligent people in my life, and a lot of "stupid" intelligent older people. I'm one of them, you see.
When you will write and read thousands of lines of text on a message board, fussing about not wanting to read the text in game.
I think getting to know other people's "opinions" has more validity than reading "text in a game". Do you enjoy reading pre-made "game generator" drivel , or would you rather actually get to know someone else's mind? What makes another soul "tick"? I feel in-game text lacks the spontaneity of actual conversations with actual people, like we're doing here. I'm learning so much about myself and the world this way... I'm also having so much fun trying to figure out what everyone here is thinking... If your RL personalities match up with your online personas, for instance. Makes for an interesting character study. I'm weird like that, haha.
Nothing disappoints me more than finding out that people just skip dialogue or find reading a chore and one they'd rather not do. You hear people say that they hate lines of texts they have to read in a game. My son used to read a lot as a young child and he does not read a single book any more. It's so sad for me as a parent who loves to read to see him do no reading.
The irony I guess is that he probably reads more chats on Discord than he has books in over a decade. I am constantly on a book. I am always reading and I love good stories in games and I often reread stuff I enjoy and my husband and I are avid readers. I am currently rereading Revelation Space on the second one now Redemption Ark while my husband is reading about plagues in history.
What has happened to us that we consider reading a chore now and it's become fashionable to skip reading even in games that are heavily based on roleplaying and has a massive interesting story. It's really sad for me as a person when I meet young people who think spelling badly and confessing to not reading is a badge of pride.
I am an avid reader... of sci-fi and fantasy books. Can't get enough of them, I read a book or two a week. Love it.
However, I skip a lot of cutscenes and quest text in games. Despite the fact that a lot of the material in RPGs is not too dissimilar from the books I love.
So, I thought it might be interesting to give you my reasoning, so you can potentially understand other points of view.
1) Stories in games suck.
This is by far the most prevelent reason for why I skip cutscenes and text in games. It's boring, childish, generic crap 99% of the time. Compared to a good book, the stories in games are atrocious. It is the very fact that I am an avid reader that I am able to say this, if I didn't read so many books I'm not sure I'd be aware of how bad the stories are in games.
Now there are legitimate, practical reasons why the stories are bad in games, but probs not worth getting into here.
2) Story is not gameplay, nor is it roleplaying.
Watching or reading something is completely different to playing something. So, the more story there is in a game, generally the less of a game there is. I play games to, you know, play games. So, the more the game forces me to stop playing, the less fun I have.
Likewise, because story is not gameplay, it cannot be roleplaying either. Play requires interaction, story often involves no interaction. Now, a good story can be great for providing context for your roleplaying, but it very rarely provides any roleplaying opportunities by itself.
3) My actions always contradict the story
Devs cannot control the actions of the player, which introduces a lot of randomness to any story they try to tell. The story may be telling me that my character is a hero, but then I go out and slaughter a bunch of innocent people. That sort of contradiction is rarely acknowledged, let alone dealt with. This makes nearly all stories completely nonsensical to me.
This particular problem is then amplified in a multiplayer environment: not only do my own actions contradict the story, but so do the actions of everyone around me.
The only way to tell a coherant story is to greatly restrict the actions of the player. This leads you to the point of being an interactive movie, and no longer a game.
In short, I simply believe that games are a terrible medium for telling a story, so I often skip as much of the story as possible.
Where games excel is in creating a story. That is a far more compelling notion that plays to the strengths of the industry.
Currently Playing: WAR RoR - Spitt rr7X Black Orc | Scrotling rr6X Squig Herder | Scabrous rr4X Shaman
When you will write and read thousands of lines of text on a message board, fussing about not wanting to read the text in game.
I think getting to know other people's "opinions" has more validity than reading "text in a game". Do you enjoy reading pre-made "game generator" drivel , or would you rather actually get to know someone else's mind? What makes another soul "tick"? I feel in-game text lacks the spontaneity of actual conversations with actual people, like we're doing here. I'm learning so much about myself and the world this way... I'm also having so much fun trying to figure out what everyone here is thinking... If your RL personalities match up with your online personas, for instance. Makes for an interesting character study. I'm weird like that, haha.
This depends greatly on the "Someone else".. LOL.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
I would add to everything you wrote by saying reading stories on a computer is not fun. When I have my book or a tablet I'm lying down relaxing when I'm playing a game I'm usually sitting upright and focused. It's a different mindset for a different activity in a different position. I'm an avid reader as well. but I tend to skip a lot of the reading when I play games.
Games are a terrible medium for "telling a story". They're a great medium for playing a story.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
It also was the first with a female lead character
I don't really think in terms of "gender". Whether or not a protagonist is male or female is of little concern to me. What I do care about is if the protagonst is "well-written, relatable and detailed" as you said. She sounds fun to play.
I didn't mean it that way either, just noted it as a milestone Since in the present it really is "little concern", back in the end of the '90s it was still a novum, and not only within the genre (with those few details I cited), but in games overall as well.
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For the other part of not reading anymore, story's role in gaming, etc., that's a really wide topic and could offer great debates indeed.
Like, I mostly agree with camel and I'm an avid reader too, but on this one I digress - maybe because I'm a story player...
In short, I simply believe that games are a terrible medium for telling a
story, so I often skip as much of the story as possible.
A difficult and challenging medium, sure. A terrible one, I'd debate on that. I often recall the narrative course with LotRO, the subject was discussed back and forth there as well...
I can see your points but I feel that they are particular to you @cameltosis You once mentioned, I think that was you and if it was not forgive my impertinence that you do not perceive nor experience the world like most people. You said you lacked empathy.
Story in a game is different to when I am reading a story in a book. I am actually playing out a story and oft times I can actually see the people I am interacting with when the game characters are large enough. In books my imagination is what drives the interest but I do love the fact that in games I get to see other people's ideas and stories and visualizations and the medium actually allows me to interact with the story in a way the book cannot. I am always excited when I get to talk to NPCs that have good dialogue options because it gives that character NPC gravitas that again only my imagination fills when I am reading. I am unable and quite frankly I don't wish to divorce my playing the game from being part of the story.
Stephen Fry in an interview talked about how our minds always go back to the same room we create when we reread books. He's right I imagined "Nostalgia for Infinity" and it's deterioration a certain way and in spite of going to various sites looking for drawings including Deviantart when I was rereading the book my mind went back to the picture I created in my head. It always looked the way I imagined it the very first time the ship was described to me in the book.
Games give me the opportunity to experience what other people's imaginations lead them to when they are telling a story. While you may find them terrible I have found many good single player and adventure games that require going through a lot of texts and that text gives me the context and I feel like I am in the story. May be you cannot or have no wish to but to me that is very much part of what the game developer had in mind and wished players could experience. I am both playing the game and being part of it.
While I agree many games have very poor stories the fact that I am playing a character and I do think roleplaying can take the form of a story since I am playing a role in the story in the game and I do love to get into character. I was very attached to my character in Mass Effect for instance and I felt the emotions while I went through the story. I was very disgusted by Jacob's father for instance and I actually felt it. If I had not immersed myself in the game and actually became Sheppard I would not have been able to experience that to that degree. You might laugh thinking I am exaggerating my attachment to the character but many times in games I actually feel fear and unhappiness. I used to feel that in Everquest a lot, actual fear.
I also give stories in games a lot of latitude and allow for mistakes and inconsistencies which comes with the medium and I don't nitpick over things because overall if the visuals and stories are decent I generally enjoy myself. I am a cheap date I guess.
I disagree that stories in games suck and that they are a terrible medium. They are a fantastic medium to tell stories and I have enjoyed games like the Mass Effect Trilogy, Divinity Original Sin, Horizon Zero Dawn and many other games and for MMORPGs the games I have roleplayed in and created a story in my head while playing are Everquest, Lord of the Rings Online and I actually really like Star Wars the Old Republic. You might say I have very low standards but I am not alone in appreciating these games for their stories. In SWToR I recall my character had an actual problem trying not to do something while playing a Sith. I really didn't want to kill that many or be that evil so I became like a light sided Sith. I had many ambiguous characters in SWToR.
For me there is no way I can divide my character in a game from the story I actually immerse myself in the game and imagine all sorts of things to add to my anxiety. In Valheim I keep imagining that creatures are coming for me and very scared to go out and even chop wood. I try to be that lonely person in this world with only a crow for assistance. Granted there isn't much of a story in Valheim but my imagination is filling in the gaps and I I do feel I am very much roleplaying that character.
Nothing disappoints me more than finding out that people just skip dialogue or find reading a chore and one they'd rather not do. You hear people say that they hate lines of texts they have to read in a game. My son used to read a lot as a young child and he does not read a single book any more. It's so sad for me as a parent who loves to read to see him do no reading.
The irony I guess is that he probably reads more chats on Discord than he has books in over a decade. I am constantly on a book. I am always reading and I love good stories in games and I often reread stuff I enjoy and my husband and I are avid readers. I am currently rereading Revelation Space on the second one now Redemption Ark while my husband is reading about plagues in history.
What has happened to us that we consider reading a chore now and it's become fashionable to skip reading even in games that are heavily based on roleplaying and has a massive interesting story. It's really sad for me as a person when I meet young people who think spelling badly and confessing to not reading is a badge of pride.
I love to read well written and compelling stories.
Guess what - 99% of the game stories are pure shit - this is why I don't read them.
The stories in vast majority of MMORPGs are awful.
If devs want me to read their quests, npc dialog or even watch the cutscenes - make it worth doing so - this is why I skip all the bullshit in games as fast as possible - because it's not worth reading nor listening to at all.
I think that is the point you are missing - not everything is worth reading - and mmorpgs are some of the biggest offenders.
Take BDO - I've played it on and off since launch - been years now - I've never read a single quest or watched a single cutscene in the game, because it is just terrible - I mean they should win an award for the worst story told in a mmorpg, and given how terrible most of the other mmorpgs are - you have to try hard to make it that shitty.
I know you never liked Wildstar as DMKano but did you know that I found when I read and listened to every piece of dialogue, note and writings strewn throughout the game that they paid homage to many, many science fiction authors. In lore and quests. It was a remarkable effort. One you would never have noticed if you do not read it and dismiss things out of hand because bleh games have poorly written lore, quest or dialogue.
I have found gems in the most unlikely places. Perhaps it is your loss and my gain that I do look. While I do agree some games are awful I always make the effort to read before I pass judgement. In your case you don't even bother so having this conversation with you is pointless.
I also give stories in games a lot of latitude and allow for mistakes and inconsistencies which comes with the medium and I don't nitpick over things because overall if the visuals and stories are decent I generally enjoy myself.
I just want to emphasis that part (agree with the rest too), since it's important and also interesting, it was discussed a lot at the course as well.
Stories are personal experiences, whether it's happening with you, or in front of you (on the screen), or through the eyes of a narrator (in a book for example), the experience is personal.
That's why people can have different interpretations on books/movies/etc., even if they read/see/etc. the very same, the experiences may vary on individual backgrounds on knowledge, past events, etc.
@cheyane's allowing of latitude for the medium (not just games, most media have their own nitpickings) is important, especially with the multiplayer setting which has obvious narrative tripwires... and it's odd how many players/readers/movie-goers/etc. won't give the same.
It always confused me (perhaps because I've been playing multiplayer RPGs since the MUD/MUSH era in the mid-'90s and it became natural), how players hold it against MMORPG storytelling.
Finishing a task in the shoes of Geralt or Shepard (since cheyane mentioned ME) is the same as finishing a task in an MMORPG.
Thousands of other players have done the same, yet it's "fine" in Witcher/ME, but "bad storytelling" in MMORPGs, while the only difference is in the latter you actually see those other players, and not just meeting with them on forums, etc.
It's up to personal taste if that's an insurmountable offense, or something one can accept as the nature of the medium. For me it never was immersion-breaking, but maybe I'm just more allowing in this.
(sidenote, there was also a discussion about how could those tripwires bypassed, what methods could serve as a meaningful and wholesome story experience in a multiplayer environment for all players participating, or at least present.
It's very challenging, and every idea we could come up have had a trade-off in other areas... maybe the easiest solution is exactly the allowing some latitude, accepting the multiplayer-caused inconsistencies.)
"3. I'm better off replaying Skyrim and Oblivion than playing this piece of cr*p."
Yeah I agree I thought ESO was the worst of all the ES games (except for Arena maybe), but alot of players here seem to like it for some reason so they probably thought you might too.
I don't think a comparison of a MMORPG and it's single player cousins is all that valid. The two have a very different focus and needs to address.
A better comparison for ESO would be that of it's MMORPG fellows in whatever terms one wants to consider, and the ES games to other single player fantasy ones.
I think what alot of us wanted was "Skyrim Online" and we got nothing anywhere near that.
I don't see how that could happen with the differences between what solo games and MMORPGs must be able to accommodate.
I can see your points but I feel that they are particular to you @cameltosis You once mentioned, I think that was you and if it was not forgive my impertinence that you do not perceive nor experience the world like most people. You said you lacked empathy.
Oh, don't get me wrong, I am not trying to say my point of view is correct and yours in wrong, everybody has their own point of view and thats OK.
You mentioned that you were disappointed when you know someone else is skipping the quest text, I was merely trying to provide an explanation of why some people do so, beyond simply being lazy.
As for my way of perceiving the world, I suffer from depression which somewhat warps my view of the world, but im not lacking in empathy so not sure where that's come from. I do struggle to empathise with NPCs in games, that is true, but that is down to the poor writing of the stories more than anything to do with me (i think!). I have no problem empathising with characters in film, TV or books, only games.
Currently Playing: WAR RoR - Spitt rr7X Black Orc | Scrotling rr6X Squig Herder | Scabrous rr4X Shaman
Nothing disappoints me more than finding out that people just skip dialogue or find reading a chore and one they'd rather not do. You hear people say that they hate lines of texts they have to read in a game. My son used to read a lot as a young child and he does not read a single book any more. It's so sad for me as a parent who loves to read to see him do no reading.
The irony I guess is that he probably reads more chats on Discord than he has books in over a decade. I am constantly on a book. I am always reading and I love good stories in games and I often reread stuff I enjoy and my husband and I are avid readers. I am currently rereading Revelation Space on the second one now Redemption Ark while my husband is reading about plagues in history.
What has happened to us that we consider reading a chore now and it's become fashionable to skip reading even in games that are heavily based on roleplaying and has a massive interesting story. It's really sad for me as a person when I meet young people who think spelling badly and confessing to not reading is a badge of pride.
I used to read Lord of the Rings three times a year. Now I don't. I will read text in games the first time or two, then it becomes repetitive.
But writing in a multiplayer game hasn't really lived up to the quality I want in a story. The most glaring problem I usually have is that the dialog is written in a single person mode, i.e. I NPC talking to 1 character. That's perfectly fine for solo tasks and missions where the beneficiary is 1 character. But for group activities? It just doesn't work as well for me. The NPC should be addressing a group of players, not require 6 different people to interact with the NPC in order for everyone to get the mission. Some games have a 'share task' feature, which is great, but not enough, and it is shared differently.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
I distinctly remember that you commented on a sad event on these boards (someone famous died) and how you didn't have the tools to empathize and how your view of the world was different. I am sorry I brought it up and I hope I didn't cause you any distress. My recollection was of a thread around 3 years ago I think.
I also wanted to address this.
2) Story is not gameplay, nor is it roleplaying.
Watching or reading something is completely different to playing something. So, the more story there is in a game, generally the less of a game there is. I play games to, you know, play games. So, the more the game forces me to stop playing, the less fun I have.
Likewise, because story is not gameplay, it cannot be roleplaying either.
This conclusion that you made was dependent on the first part of what you wrote that story is not gameplay. I don't agree with this at all as I feel some games are completely dependent on the story to create the gameplay in fact without the story there would be no need to devise the gameplay to advance the progress in the story.
I also feel that story is what makes the gameplay complete and gives one a reason to play. I find that in many games without a story I often do not form any attachments to the characters and that is important to me. The world must be able to create in me the desire to be there and to continue to engage in it.
I do also think that this is a point upon which we are not in agreement and neither one of us is wrong or right. We just view things differently as you pointed out.
I apologize again for my mistake about what you wrote.
I distinctly remember that you commented on a sad event on these boards (someone famous died) and how you didn't have the tools to empathize and how your view of the world was different. I am sorry I brought it up and I hope I didn't cause you any distress. My recollection was of a thread around 3 years ago I think.
Watching or reading something is completely different to playing something. So, the more story there is in a game, generally the less of a game there is. I play games to, you know, play games. So, the more the game forces me to stop playing, the less fun I have.
Likewise, because story is not gameplay, it cannot be roleplaying either.
This conclusion that you made was dependent on the first part of what you wrote that story is not gameplay. I don't agree with this at all as I feel some games are completely dependent on the story to create the gameplay in fact without the story there would be no need to devise the gameplay to advance the progress in the story.
I also feel that story is what makes the gameplay complete and gives one a reason to play. I find that in many games without a story I often do not form any attachments to the characters and that is important to me. The world must be able to create in me the desire to be there and to continue to engage in it.
I do also think that this is a point upon which we are not in agreement and neither one of us is wrong or right. We just view things differently as you pointed out.
I apologize again for my mistake about what you wrote.
Being told a story is passive: reading a book, watching a film, listening to a story being told around the fire.
Creating a story is active: we take actions, then connect those actions through a narrative that we create.
So, being told a story by developers (reading text, watching cutscenes, listening to dialogue) is passive and therefore is not gameplay. There's no interaction, just passive absorbtion of someone else's story.
Taking action, through the gameplay, is creating a story. Roleplaying requires taking action, i.e. gameplay, which is why dev-told stories are not roleplaying. It is the gameplay that provides us with the roleplaying.
As I said, dev-told story provides much needed context for creating a story. For example, the devs will usually tell us that we're the good guys, they'll tell us who the bad guys are, and then we go off into the world to play the game with that context in mind. If that context is missing (e.g. in a pure sandbox) then it can be hard creating your own story from scratch.
But also not impossible.
I'm playing ARK at the moment. No story in that game at all (that I've seen). No quests, no set goals, and im playing single player so no other people. But my created story through gameplay? Far stronger than most RPGs! It's a story of exploration, settling down, unexpected deaths and unexpected triumphs. It's a story of my love of triceratops and my genocide of the dodo.
This is what I mean when I say the power of games is in creating stories. Games are about interaction, about playing, and our own story is the story of the various actions that we take in a game. The more options for gameplay that the devs give us, the more varied and personal our stories become. When the gameplay is restricted in order to make the game tell a developer's story, the power to create a story is diminished and all we're left with is a sub-par story in comparison to film or books.
Currently Playing: WAR RoR - Spitt rr7X Black Orc | Scrotling rr6X Squig Herder | Scabrous rr4X Shaman
This is my understanding of what roleplaying means.
A role-playing game (sometimes spelled roleplaying game;[1][2] abbreviated RPG) is a game in which players assume the roles of characters in a fictional setting. Players take responsibility for acting out these roles within a narrative, either through literal acting, or through a process of structured decision-making regarding character development.[3] Actions taken within many games succeed or fail according to a formal system of rules and guidelines.[4]
You take on a role. So when a writer in a game creates a character like Sheppard or Geralt and you take on that role and act it out as written in the story you are roleplaying. As for MMORPGs like SWToR as you create your character and follow the story you are roleplaying that character. You seem to think that the source of that roleplay must only be the player but that is not an exclusive aspect of roleplaying. Further whenever you make any customizations no matter how small you are making that character you own.
By giving you dialogue choices it allows you to make decisions about how you are roleplaying the character you have. Gameplay here is the combat, use of skills or travelling and speaking you do with other NPCs to further the story and develop your character.
Just because you follow a story and follow dialogue does not mean you are not roleplaying and those games are all traditionally called Roleplaying games. The creativity can be that of the dungeon master or the writer in a story but as soon as you assume the role that was created you are essentially roleplaying.
If you look at this definition it seem to suggest that without a story there can be no roleplaying but I don't agree with that because while I'm playing Valheim I am definitely roleplaying a lost, poorly equipped character that is even afraid of her own shadow.
So what you're doing on Ark and what I did in Mass Effect, SWTOR and Witcher , Divinity Original Sin games are all Roleplaying. The gameplay is the features of a video game, such as its plot and the way it is played, as distinct from the graphics and sound effects. It is the connection the player has with the game and how the player overcomes the challenges in the game while following a story.
This is my understanding of what roleplaying means.
A role-playing game (sometimes spelled roleplaying game;[1][2] abbreviated RPG) is a game in which players assume the roles of characters in a fictional setting. Players take responsibility for acting out these roles within a narrative, either through literal acting, or through a process of structured decision-making regarding character development.[3] Actions taken within many games succeed or fail according to a formal system of rules and guidelines.[4]
(Tychsen 2006:76)
I really struggle with the definitions of roleplaying such as this. Because by this definition, just about every single game that includes a player avatar is therefore an RPG, which clearly isn't the case.
So, I take the more literal, core definition of roleplaying: playing i.e. interacting with a role.
Geralt is not a role. He is a character. Using that character to interact with the rest of the game world is not roleplaying. However, when the player gets to interact with Geralt directly, make decisions about his personality and how he approaches the story, that is where the roleplaying occurs. You are deciding on the role that Geralt is playing: is he vicious or kind? Noble or mercenary? Honest or deceiving?
Of course, "roles" come in many shapes and sizes.
There are combat roles - tank, healer, dps, buffer, debuffer, CC, off-tank etc. At it's most shallow, the player only gets to choose the role at the beginning, then everything else is set in stone. The roleplaying of a combat role gets deeper when you get to make more choices about that role: are you sustained DPS or burst? Front loaded or damage over time? AoE or single target? Axe or Spear?
There are crafting roles - blacksmith, carpenter, tailor etc. In most MMORPGs, crafting roles seem to be extremely shallow: you make your initial choice of crafting role and then there are no other interactions with that role, just using whatever you are given. But more deeper crafting roles involve more specialisations that you get to choose. Specialist in swords, or plate armour, or repairing armour etc.
There are personality / story roles. This is what The Witcher (and i assume ME) offer. You make decisions about the personality of the characters you are given, i.e. you are interacting with the role, deciding what that role should be. You make decisions about how you progress with the story, deciding what your role should be within the story. The depth or shallowness of such roleplaying is about how important those decisions become. SWTOR is an example of really shallow personality roleplaying: you get to make lots of decisions during a quest, resulting in light or dark points, but the consequences of those decisions are nearly non-existent.
If there is no interaction with the role by the player, then it's not a roleplaying game, it's just an standard adventure game like Zelda or Assassins Creed.
The beauty of a roleplaying game then comes from seeing the consequences of our roleplaying decisions. This is where the lessons come from, along with any emergent gameplay. If I roleplay Geralt as a completely selfish dickhead, the consequences are usually negative in comparison to playing as a selfless hero. The player (me) learns something from those consequences, which can be very powerful and meaningful if done right.
If the roleplaying, the interaction between the player and the role, is missing, then the lessons are much less powerful, because it wasn't us who made the decisions, it was the developer.
(sorry for long wall of text, I find the notion of roleplaying and the power of it to be fascinating and can see enormous potential for the future. that's part of the reason I get quite defensive when games are labelled as RPGs despite the lack of roleplaying, I feel it devalues a really powerful genre).
Currently Playing: WAR RoR - Spitt rr7X Black Orc | Scrotling rr6X Squig Herder | Scabrous rr4X Shaman
I only REALLY started playing MMOs in what I would call the "golden era" of MMOs, this was back in the mid 2010s.
Interesting how your definition of "golden era" is when you started playing them. By 2010, the genre was already in its death spiral. I stopped reading here.
This is my understanding of what roleplaying means.
A role-playing game (sometimes spelled roleplaying game;[1][2] abbreviated RPG) is a game in which players assume the roles of characters in a fictional setting. Players take responsibility for acting out these roles within a narrative, either through literal acting, or through a process of structured decision-making regarding character development.[3] Actions taken within many games succeed or fail according to a formal system of rules and guidelines.[4]
(Tychsen 2006:76)
I really struggle with the definitions of roleplaying such as this. Because by this definition, just about every single game that includes a player avatar is therefore an RPG, which clearly isn't the case.
So, I take the more literal, core definition of roleplaying: playing i.e. interacting with a role.
Geralt is not a role. He is a character. Using that character to interact with the rest of the game world is not roleplaying. However, when the player gets to interact with Geralt directly, make decisions about his personality and how he approaches the story, that is where the roleplaying occurs. You are deciding on the role that Geralt is playing: is he vicious or kind? Noble or mercenary? Honest or deceiving?
Of course, "roles" come in many shapes and sizes.
There are combat roles - tank, healer, dps, buffer, debuffer, CC, off-tank etc. At it's most shallow, the player only gets to choose the role at the beginning, then everything else is set in stone. The roleplaying of a combat role gets deeper when you get to make more choices about that role: are you sustained DPS or burst? Front loaded or damage over time? AoE or single target? Axe or Spear?
There are crafting roles - blacksmith, carpenter, tailor etc. In most MMORPGs, crafting roles seem to be extremely shallow: you make your initial choice of crafting role and then there are no other interactions with that role, just using whatever you are given. But more deeper crafting roles involve more specialisations that you get to choose. Specialist in swords, or plate armour, or repairing armour etc.
There are personality / story roles. This is what The Witcher (and i assume ME) offer. You make decisions about the personality of the characters you are given, i.e. you are interacting with the role, deciding what that role should be. You make decisions about how you progress with the story, deciding what your role should be within the story. The depth or shallowness of such roleplaying is about how important those decisions become. SWTOR is an example of really shallow personality roleplaying: you get to make lots of decisions during a quest, resulting in light or dark points, but the consequences of those decisions are nearly non-existent.
If there is no interaction with the role by the player, then it's not a roleplaying game, it's just an standard adventure game like Zelda or Assassins Creed.
The beauty of a roleplaying game then comes from seeing the consequences of our roleplaying decisions. This is where the lessons come from, along with any emergent gameplay. If I roleplay Geralt as a completely selfish dickhead, the consequences are usually negative in comparison to playing as a selfless hero. The player (me) learns something from those consequences, which can be very powerful and meaningful if done right.
If the roleplaying, the interaction between the player and the role, is missing, then the lessons are much less powerful, because it wasn't us who made the decisions, it was the developer.
(sorry for long wall of text, I find the notion of roleplaying and the power of it to be fascinating and can see enormous potential for the future. that's part of the reason I get quite defensive when games are labelled as RPGs despite the lack of roleplaying, I feel it devalues a really powerful genre).
Ive had this discussion here more than once ..
There are
Role-Playing Games
and
Games where you Play a Role
They are very different , some cannot wrap there brains around it ..
This is my understanding of what roleplaying means.
A role-playing game (sometimes spelled roleplaying game;[1][2] abbreviated RPG) is a game in which players assume the roles of characters in a fictional setting. Players take responsibility for acting out these roles within a narrative, either through literal acting, or through a process of structured decision-making regarding character development.[3] Actions taken within many games succeed or fail according to a formal system of rules and guidelines.[4]
(Tychsen 2006:76)
I really struggle with the definitions of roleplaying such as this. Because by this definition, just about every single game that includes a player avatar is therefore an RPG, which clearly isn't the case.
I believe the misunderstanding there lies at the semantics and/or actual implementation.
The definition @cheyane quoted is correct (or at least I too can side with it and feel it describes RPG accurately), but it's for role-playing games (on general, if you like).
What you debate @cameltosis is the different implementations and deficits of cRPGs (single and MMORPGs), and in a sense you're right. Those won't ever give the wide array of freedom and flexibility of an actual GM can offer. *
While on tabletop you can do anything (ok, almost anything...), in a cRPG you're always restricted to what the developers coded into the game.
Even if it has an actual building tool (like the Foundry was in Cryptic's games), you can only create your own narrative with the building blocks already available in the code.
There was a thread about this a few years ago, where I said this is what I miss from the MUD/MUSH era the most. With those games were text-based, they were much more flexible - that's why there were countless of games, localised, edited, etc.
You wanted to add new zones, new abilities, new NPCs and decision paths, anything actually, all you needed was some coding skills and a text editor.
*ed: but it doesn't mean you can't have a great roleplaying experience still, within those games. It's up to players' preferences.
I can accept the limitations of the medium and find my fun, I don't expect full freedom from a computer game - though I love to explore all possible routes and easter eggs the devs have hidden inside.
(just added it in case it wasn't clear which side I'm on )
Nothing disappoints me more than finding out that people just skip dialogue or find reading a chore and one they'd rather not do. You hear people say that they hate lines of texts they have to read in a game. My son used to read a lot as a young child and he does not read a single book any more. It's so sad for me as a parent who loves to read to see him do no reading.
Don't force your son with what you like.
Because you love something doesn't mean your son should like the same stuff as well.
Interesting how your definition of "golden era" is when you started playing them. By 2010, the genre was already in its death spiral. I stopped reading here.
Yeah, I still needed to change that. Apparently I'm referring to the mid-to-late 2000s era (cameltosis pointed this out to me, thanks again!).
Thanks everyone for helping me find an MMO. It wasn't my initial reason for starting this Thread, but I did gain some nuggets of wisdom throughout all this. Nonetheless, I feel like this is not the appropriate Thread to go about a "to read or not to read" tangent, as interesting as this derailment has become!
My humble opinion is that everything in life is subjective, including MMOs/videogames. No reason to force your beliefs or opinions about things unto others. Let's be more caring towards one another and and appreciate each other's differences?
On another note, you guys seem pretty talkative on this subject. Perhaps starting your own Thread/Poll about it is in good order?
Sorry, I just don't have much to say. I haven't played games intensely in such a long time. And I feel like I'm either a disruptive force, or just a waste of space. That's why I won't return here and I feel like closing this Thread for good. Perhaps a Mod could help me out?
In the meantime, please do not respond to this Thread. If you want to delve deeper into the "essence" of videogames, do make your own Thread/Poll about it. Thanks!
I'm with Cameltoesis on roleplaying. But we get to define words how we want these days. Cheyanne's definition is also quite accurate, but too broad for my tastes.
My "problem" with computer game stories is when they assume something the player did not want. The suspension of disbelief (Why does no one recognize Clark Kent from Superman?) for me in video games almost always gets tripped up somewhere along the storyline. Too many times has my preferred dialogue choice remain "unmentioned", even in a tone I want to say. I admit this is a problem for me
Take Skyrim and the "civil war council" when Ulfrik starts making demands from the Tulius. I want so bad to just stand up, shout (fus ro dah!) at Ulfric, and say, "DRAGONS!" There is zero option for that. Instead you make meaningless decisions that don't really address the problem at hand, either pissing off Ulfric or Tulius. (ooooh! a choice! I'm "rolplaying!")
How many times have I been told in an MMORPG I am the "Only One", "Golden One", "Savior of the World/Universe"? My suspension flies out the window when I see the line-up of past and future "Only Ones" before and behind me. My suspension of disbelief does not stretch that far. I understand that this is my problem
Look at Star Wars. The way they describe the way the force works, Jedi/Sith battles would be nothing but standing around staring at one another while each foresaw each others moves to an end, with no lightsabers flashing. "Feel your opponent through the force." But that would be boring as all get out, so we get impressive acrobatics and light saber fights
I prefer games that give a setting to help me create my own stories rich with lore, rather ones that give me stories to follow along with. I do admit that I can, and do, enjoy stories in games (SW:KOtoR 1 & 2) were awesome stories to follow along with. Witcher and Mass Effect (though I still want try ME again, sometime) never caught on with me. Geralt and Sheppard was not "my character", but rather a character made by the developers. Every (c)RPG I play I create a new character, never a "pre-made" one. By Cheyane's definition, I am playing a role. But I'm not playing "my role."
That's how I see things, neither right or wrong for others, but stepping into the "RPG" rabbit hole
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Ahhh, I feel so bad now for disrupting an interesting conversation... But it is overwhelming to say the least and I feel like this is not the right place to do it. Sorry AlBQuirky, I understand if there are people out there who want to express themselves freely, but I'm afraid it'll confuse/scare away any new/returning players with similar questions to my original Thread.
Okay, so... I was just thinking of writing a "recommendation lists" for any new/returning MMO players who might see this Thread and think: "I wonder which MMOs I should try out now?" I was wondering if you all agree with this or not? I want to close this Thread with at least something constructive and useful for any future readers. Here goes:
1. ESO (P2P): If you love the classic MMO genre and Elder Scrolls, this is it! If you simply follow the questlines, it'll become more fun and exciting as the game progresses. Has an active community going.
2. Neverwinter Online (F2P): Again, has a very classic MMO feel to it, if you're a fan of D&D than you will feel right at home here. It is quite linear and it might not form much of a challenge (at least in the beginning). Has nice graphics and the combat is fast-paced and action oriented. Seems to have an active community.
3. TSWL (F2P): I would say this game belongs to the Top 5 MMOs list. Purely because it is so unique and offers such an alternate experience compared to most MMOs out there. Has great voice-acting and writing in it. The quests are fun and diverse, it's not just "fetch" quests. There are some mini-games in the form of puzzles that you have to solve. Also the atmosphere and writing is very suspenseful, and it deals with whacky conspiracy theories and metaphysical/philosophy stuff (awesome, right?). If you like subtle humor and sarcastic dialogue, look no further. The game is quite dead, though, so you might have a hard time forming parties for dungeons and/or defeating stronger enemies. It can get lonely fast...
Just short and sweet descriptions? I'm sure you all can come up with better descriptions than me...
Trying to control and rule a discussion on page 6.. you're such the idealist.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
That's why I won't return here and I feel like closing this Thread for good. Perhaps a Mod could help me out?
In the meantime, please do not respond to this Thread. If you want to delve deeper into the "essence" of videogames, do make your own Thread/Poll about it. Thanks!
Yep, we indeed derailed the thread from its original course, and I apologise for it (since I threw in the "writing lost its weight" topic...), but maybe closing the thread would be a bit too drastic...
We can be civil and continue this conversation in a new thread, however you might want to check back, say, a week later to share your experiences so far, about how you like the story of TSW (ok, or in Knight's case how you like the gameplay of it ), and with a closed down thread you won't be able to.
Comments
Games are a terrible medium for "telling a story". They're a great medium for playing a story.
You once mentioned, I think that was you and if it was not forgive my impertinence that you do not perceive nor experience the world like most people. You said you lacked empathy.
Story in a game is different to when I am reading a story in a book. I am actually playing out a story and oft times I can actually see the people I am interacting with when the game characters are large enough. In books my imagination is what drives the interest but I do love the fact that in games I get to see other people's ideas and stories and visualizations and the medium actually allows me to interact with the story in a way the book cannot. I am always excited when I get to talk to NPCs that have good dialogue options because it gives that character NPC gravitas that again only my imagination fills when I am reading. I am unable and quite frankly I don't wish to divorce my playing the game from being part of the story.
Stephen Fry in an interview talked about how our minds always go back to the same room we create when we reread books. He's right I imagined "Nostalgia for Infinity" and it's deterioration a certain way and in spite of going to various sites looking for drawings including Deviantart when I was rereading the book my mind went back to the picture I created in my head. It always looked the way I imagined it the very first time the ship was described to me in the book.
Games give me the opportunity to experience what other people's imaginations lead them to when they are telling a story. While you may find them terrible I have found many good single player and adventure games that require going through a lot of texts and that text gives me the context and I feel like I am in the story. May be you cannot or have no wish to but to me that is very much part of what the game developer had in mind and wished players could experience. I am both playing the game and being part of it.
While I agree many games have very poor stories the fact that I am playing a character and I do think roleplaying can take the form of a story since I am playing a role in the story in the game and I do love to get into character. I was very attached to my character in Mass Effect for instance and I felt the emotions while I went through the story. I was very disgusted by Jacob's father for instance and I actually felt it. If I had not immersed myself in the game and actually became Sheppard I would not have been able to experience that to that degree. You might laugh thinking I am exaggerating my attachment to the character but many times in games I actually feel fear and unhappiness. I used to feel that in Everquest a lot, actual fear.
I also give stories in games a lot of latitude and allow for mistakes and inconsistencies which comes with the medium and I don't nitpick over things because overall if the visuals and stories are decent I generally enjoy myself. I am a cheap date I guess.
I disagree that stories in games suck and that they are a terrible medium. They are a fantastic medium to tell stories and I have enjoyed games like the Mass Effect Trilogy, Divinity Original Sin, Horizon Zero Dawn and many other games and for MMORPGs the games I have roleplayed in and created a story in my head while playing are Everquest, Lord of the Rings Online and I actually really like Star Wars the Old Republic. You might say I have very low standards but I am not alone in appreciating these games for their stories. In SWToR I recall my character had an actual problem trying not to do something while playing a Sith. I really didn't want to kill that many or be that evil so I became like a light sided Sith. I had many ambiguous characters in SWToR.
For me there is no way I can divide my character in a game from the story I actually immerse myself in the game and imagine all sorts of things to add to my anxiety. In Valheim I keep imagining that creatures are coming for me and very scared to go out and even chop wood. I try to be that lonely person in this world with only a crow for assistance. Granted there isn't much of a story in Valheim but my imagination is filling in the gaps and I I do feel I am very much roleplaying that character.
I have found gems in the most unlikely places. Perhaps it is your loss and my gain that I do look. While I do agree some games are awful I always make the effort to read before I pass judgement. In your case you don't even bother so having this conversation with you is pointless.
I don't see how that could happen with the differences between what solo games and MMORPGs must be able to accommodate.
How was that expected to work?
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
I also wanted to address this.
This conclusion that you made was dependent on the first part of what you wrote that story is not gameplay. I don't agree with this at all as I feel some games are completely dependent on the story to create the gameplay in fact without the story there would be no need to devise the gameplay to advance the progress in the story.
I also feel that story is what makes the gameplay complete and gives one a reason to play. I find that in many games without a story I often do not form any attachments to the characters and that is important to me. The world must be able to create in me the desire to be there and to continue to engage in it.
I do also think that this is a point upon which we are not in agreement and neither one of us is wrong or right. We just view things differently as you pointed out.
I apologize again for my mistake about what you wrote.
A role-playing game (sometimes spelled roleplaying game;[1][2] abbreviated RPG) is a game in which players assume the roles of characters in a fictional setting. Players take responsibility for acting out these roles within a narrative, either through literal acting, or through a process of structured decision-making regarding character development.[3] Actions taken within many games succeed or fail according to a formal system of rules and guidelines.[4]
(Tychsen 2006:76)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Role-playing_game#:~:text=A role-playing game
You take on a role. So when a writer in a game creates a character like Sheppard or Geralt and you take on that role and act it out as written in the story you are roleplaying. As for MMORPGs like SWToR as you create your character and follow the story you are roleplaying that character. You seem to think that the source of that roleplay must only be the player but that is not an exclusive aspect of roleplaying. Further whenever you make any customizations no matter how small you are making that character you own.
By giving you dialogue choices it allows you to make decisions about how you are roleplaying the character you have. Gameplay here is the combat, use of skills or travelling and speaking you do with other NPCs to further the story and develop your character.
Just because you follow a story and follow dialogue does not mean you are not roleplaying and those games are all traditionally called Roleplaying games. The creativity can be that of the dungeon master or the writer in a story but as soon as you assume the role that was created you are essentially roleplaying.
If you look at this definition it seem to suggest that without a story there can be no roleplaying but I don't agree with that because while I'm playing Valheim I am definitely roleplaying a lost, poorly equipped character that is even afraid of her own shadow.
So what you're doing on Ark and what I did in Mass Effect, SWTOR and Witcher , Divinity Original Sin games are all Roleplaying. The gameplay is the features of a video game, such as its plot and the way it is played, as distinct from the graphics and sound effects. It is the connection the player has with the game and how the player overcomes the challenges in the game while following a story.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gameplay
Because you love something doesn't mean your son should like the same stuff as well.
My "problem" with computer game stories is when they assume something the player did not want. The suspension of disbelief (Why does no one recognize Clark Kent from Superman?) for me in video games almost always gets tripped up somewhere along the storyline. Too many times has my preferred dialogue choice remain "unmentioned", even in a tone I want to say. I admit this is a problem for me
Take Skyrim and the "civil war council" when Ulfrik starts making demands from the Tulius. I want so bad to just stand up, shout (fus ro dah!) at Ulfric, and say, "DRAGONS!" There is zero option for that. Instead you make meaningless decisions that don't really address the problem at hand, either pissing off Ulfric or Tulius. (ooooh! a choice! I'm "rolplaying!")
How many times have I been told in an MMORPG I am the "Only One", "Golden One", "Savior of the World/Universe"? My suspension flies out the window when I see the line-up of past and future "Only Ones" before and behind me. My suspension of disbelief does not stretch that far. I understand that this is my problem
Look at Star Wars. The way they describe the way the force works, Jedi/Sith battles would be nothing but standing around staring at one another while each foresaw each others moves to an end, with no lightsabers flashing. "Feel your opponent through the force." But that would be boring as all get out, so we get impressive acrobatics and light saber fights
I prefer games that give a setting to help me create my own stories rich with lore, rather ones that give me stories to follow along with. I do admit that I can, and do, enjoy stories in games (SW:KOtoR 1 & 2) were awesome stories to follow along with. Witcher and Mass Effect (though I still want try ME again, sometime) never caught on with me. Geralt and Sheppard was not "my character", but rather a character made by the developers. Every (c)RPG I play I create a new character, never a "pre-made" one. By Cheyane's definition, I am playing a role. But I'm not playing "my role."
That's how I see things, neither right or wrong for others, but stepping into the "RPG" rabbit hole
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR