The Lord of the Rings Online Interview Part 2: EG7, 4K Support And More | MMORPG.com

System · July 2021

The Lord of the Rings Online Interview Part 2: EG7, 4K Support And More | MMORPG.com

With Gundabad and the future on the horizon for The Lord of the Rings Online, we sat down with the team's executive producer, Rob Ciccolini, for an interview last week. This is part two of our chat, where we dive into EG7, graphic upgrades, and the Brawler inspiration.

Read the full story here

Randomuser2020876 · July 2021

They've been "looking into" a lot of shit for years. rofl

Scot · July 2021

The Brawler is the least lore centric class the game has ever had, Dwarves have never been known particularly for boxing. Using anything to hand in a fight is not what the Brawler does to my knowledge either. Tulkas was a wrestler of course. To me the class owes its origins in brawlers in other MMOs and the studio thought, 'lets have one of those'. It is going to be really interesting to see what they put in the Brawler "Inspired by" line at the end of the class description.

If they feel they must bring in a new CC after this stick to the lore, something like an Animist, mage variant based somewhat on Radagast. Some healing, pets, nature powers.

Sovrath · July 2021

Scot said:

The Brawler is the least lore centric class the game has ever had, Dwarves have never been known particularly for boxing. Using anything to hand in a fight is not what the Brawler does to my knowledge either. Tulkas was a wrestler of course. To me the class owes its origins in brawlers in other MMOs and the studio thought, 'lets have one of those'. It is going to be really interesting to see what they put in the Brawler "Inspired by" line at the end of the class description.

If they feel they must bring in a new CC after this stick to the lore, something like an Animist, mage variant based somewhat on Radagast. Some healing, pets, nature powers.

I think they said it was inspired by Tulkas:

https://lotr.fandom.com/wiki/Tulkas

Scot · July 2021

Sovrath said:

Scot said:

The Brawler is the least lore centric class the game has ever had, Dwarves have never been known particularly for boxing. Using anything to hand in a fight is not what the Brawler does to my knowledge either. Tulkas was a wrestler of course. To me the class owes its origins in brawlers in other MMOs and the studio thought, 'lets have one of those'. It is going to be really interesting to see what they put in the Brawler "Inspired by" line at the end of the class description.

If they feel they must bring in a new CC after this stick to the lore, something like an Animist, mage variant based somewhat on Radagast. Some healing, pets, nature powers.

I think they said it was inspired by Tulkas:

https://lotr.fandom.com/wiki/Tulkas

Tulkas was a wrestler not a boxer, I guess you don't get wrestlers in MMOs because the animations of griping, holding etc npc's would be rather convoluted. If they just put their hands up and said "Ok this is not a lore class, but we like the look of it and we think you will" I would respect that. It is not easy to fit new classes in and Lotro is very solid in that regard, I would not want them to get reliant on new classes, but don't object to a new class just because it is new.

Cuddleheart · July 2021

It's not the textures that are a problem in higher resolutions, it's the inability to scale all the UI elements or make the chat a large enough font...

ashiru_1978 · July 2021

Nyctelios said:

Idk man, upscalling the resolution will just show how dated those models are. The textures are not the issue, the game has low polly count.

Take old TES as example: No matter how many 8k textures and mods to run the game in 4k you add to it, it will still look like a early ps2 game in its core - because the models are just... bad. And if you add a texture pack to something and that alone, it sticks out and makes everything else worse.

I love LOTRO aesthetic as it is, if I would change something it would be the skill effects. They are too shinny and/or ugly to look at. And changing them won't impact in the overall aesthetic (it might improve it actually).

But making better looking places without doing a complete overall might cause issues where people find this pretty looking maps and go back to the others that stick our like a sore thumb.

I would start with Bree. RP community loves Bree and sit around all day long doing events and such - and most official events also happens there.

About the brawler... I think that is kinda out of place... but many other classes are out of place too if you are a purist. So... as long it is not offensive to the lore and its fun, sure.

I find the biggest problems with the game the sound design and the lag. The sound design of many things like crackling campfires doesn't sound awesome, it's annoying. I hate the combat sounds - my character is a melee class, he fights enemies with his sword.

In WoW even auto attacks sounds so crisp and spot-on, but in LOTRO sometimes there is no sound at all, sometimes the sounds like you threw a wet piece of cloth on the floor rather than a sword slash or clash ... or whatever.

They need to bring the EU servers back to Europe and improve the game sounds.

The other annoyance I have is that the 64-bit client needs more optimization so it stops stuttering.

lotrlore · July 2021

Scot said:

Sovrath said:

Scot said:

The Brawler is the least lore centric class the game has ever had, Dwarves have never been known particularly for boxing. Using anything to hand in a fight is not what the Brawler does to my knowledge either. Tulkas was a wrestler of course. To me the class owes its origins in brawlers in other MMOs and the studio thought, 'lets have one of those'. It is going to be really interesting to see what they put in the Brawler "Inspired by" line at the end of the class description.

If they feel they must bring in a new CC after this stick to the lore, something like an Animist, mage variant based somewhat on Radagast. Some healing, pets, nature powers.

I think they said it was inspired by Tulkas:

https://lotr.fandom.com/wiki/Tulkas

Tulkas was a wrestler not a boxer, I guess you don't get wrestlers in MMOs because the animations of griping, holding etc npc's would be rather convoluted. If they just put their hands up and said "Ok this is not a lore class, but we like the look of it and we think you will" I would respect that. It is not easy to fit new classes in and Lotro is very solid in that regard, I would not want them to get reliant on new classes, but don't object to a new class just because it is new.

Keep in mind too, even if Tulkas was an inspiration, they likely cannot say for licensing reasons as I'm not sure Tulkas is ever mentioned by name in the actual LotR mythos outside of The Silmarillion, which AFAIK LOTRO doesn't have the rights to.

The only Valar that is named is Orome, so even if Tulkas was a source, it can't be the source, if that makes sense.

Sovrath · July 2021

Scot said:

Sovrath said:

Scot said:

The Brawler is the least lore centric class the game has ever had, Dwarves have never been known particularly for boxing. Using anything to hand in a fight is not what the Brawler does to my knowledge either. Tulkas was a wrestler of course. To me the class owes its origins in brawlers in other MMOs and the studio thought, 'lets have one of those'. It is going to be really interesting to see what they put in the Brawler "Inspired by" line at the end of the class description.

If they feel they must bring in a new CC after this stick to the lore, something like an Animist, mage variant based somewhat on Radagast. Some healing, pets, nature powers.

I think they said it was inspired by Tulkas:

https://lotr.fandom.com/wiki/Tulkas

Tulkas was a wrestler not a boxer, I guess you don't get wrestlers in MMOs because the animations of griping, holding etc npc's would be rather convoluted. If they just put their hands up and said "Ok this is not a lore class, but we like the look of it and we think you will" I would respect that. It is not easy to fit new classes in and Lotro is very solid in that regard, I would not want them to get reliant on new classes, but don't object to a new class just because it is new.

I still think that was their inspiration.

skeaser · July 2021

Randomuser2020876 said:

They've been "looking into" a lot of shit for years. rofl

True, but this time it looks like they've already gotten more manpower in the office to make it happen. If nothing else this at least makes me less worried about a shutdown happening anytime soon.

wilhelm2451 · July 2021

"4K Support"

The headline looks like it should read "lack of any hope for 4K support ever" from the tone of what was said.

BruceYee · July 2021

Scot said:

The Brawler is the least lore centric class the game has ever had, Dwarves have never been known particularly for boxing. Using anything to hand in a fight is not what the Brawler does to my knowledge either. Tulkas was a wrestler of course. To me the class owes its origins in brawlers in other MMOs and the studio thought, 'lets have one of those'. It is going to be really interesting to see what they put in the Brawler "Inspired by" line at the end of the class description.

If they feel they must bring in a new CC after this stick to the lore, something like an Animist, mage variant based somewhat on Radagast. Some healing, pets, nature powers.

"Inspired by" every middle-earther who couldn't find a weapon before a fight/brawl or lost theirs on the battlefield = improvisation..

If your fists & feet are all you have + you have fighting knowledge/expertise then they can be deadly weapons. Those dwarves that worked in the mines their whole lives probably have the upper body strength to rip a tiny goblin in half when you think about it..

If anything the brawler is the most realistic non-fantasy class and IMO a much needed addition to the game. Even if it's a LOTR game with maximum fantasy setting the punching and kicking will be for me a much needed escape from the same old weapon swinging that I've been doing for over a decade now. If ESO would do the same and add a monk or brawler class it would be great too..

Theocritus · July 2021

Nyctelios said:

ashiru_1978 said:

Nyctelios said:

Idk man, upscalling the resolution will just show how dated those models are. The textures are not the issue, the game has low polly count.

Take old TES as example: No matter how many 8k textures and mods to run the game in 4k you add to it, it will still look like a early ps2 game in its core - because the models are just... bad. And if you add a texture pack to something and that alone, it sticks out and makes everything else worse.

I love LOTRO aesthetic as it is, if I would change something it would be the skill effects. They are too shinny and/or ugly to look at. And changing them won't impact in the overall aesthetic (it might improve it actually).

But making better looking places without doing a complete overall might cause issues where people find this pretty looking maps and go back to the others that stick our like a sore thumb.

I would start with Bree. RP community loves Bree and sit around all day long doing events and such - and most official events also happens there.

About the brawler... I think that is kinda out of place... but many other classes are out of place too if you are a purist. So... as long it is not offensive to the lore and its fun, sure.

I find the biggest problems with the game the sound design and the lag. The sound design of many things like crackling campfires doesn't sound awesome, it's annoying. I hate the combat sounds - my character is a melee class, he fights enemies with his sword.

In WoW even auto attacks sounds so crisp and spot-on, but in LOTRO sometimes there is no sound at all, sometimes the sounds like you threw a wet piece of cloth on the floor rather than a sword slash or clash ... or whatever.

They need to bring the EU servers back to Europe and improve the game sounds.

The other annoyance I have is that the 64-bit client needs more optimization so it stops stuttering.

Did you ever try minstrel? The song effects for the skills and the shouts is amazing. But, yeah, the overall world sound mixing is sometimes off.

The OSTs tho... man, I listen while I prepare my D&D campaigns. Love the Shire theme.

My first character was a Minstrel...I got to about level 25 or so and was doing a killing quest of some sort....It mustve taken 5 minutes for him to kill the mobs....Sure he could heal himself fine but oh that awful DPS.....Maybe things have changed over the years but I remember that class was not fun.

Sovrath · July 2021

Nyctelios said:

Theocritus said:

Nyctelios said:

ashiru_1978 said:

Nyctelios said:

Idk man, upscalling the resolution will just show how dated those models are. The textures are not the issue, the game has low polly count.

Take old TES as example: No matter how many 8k textures and mods to run the game in 4k you add to it, it will still look like a early ps2 game in its core - because the models are just... bad. And if you add a texture pack to something and that alone, it sticks out and makes everything else worse.

I love LOTRO aesthetic as it is, if I would change something it would be the skill effects. They are too shinny and/or ugly to look at. And changing them won't impact in the overall aesthetic (it might improve it actually).

But making better looking places without doing a complete overall might cause issues where people find this pretty looking maps and go back to the others that stick our like a sore thumb.

I would start with Bree. RP community loves Bree and sit around all day long doing events and such - and most official events also happens there.

About the brawler... I think that is kinda out of place... but many other classes are out of place too if you are a purist. So... as long it is not offensive to the lore and its fun, sure.

I find the biggest problems with the game the sound design and the lag. The sound design of many things like crackling campfires doesn't sound awesome, it's annoying. I hate the combat sounds - my character is a melee class, he fights enemies with his sword.

In WoW even auto attacks sounds so crisp and spot-on, but in LOTRO sometimes there is no sound at all, sometimes the sounds like you threw a wet piece of cloth on the floor rather than a sword slash or clash ... or whatever.

They need to bring the EU servers back to Europe and improve the game sounds.

The other annoyance I have is that the 64-bit client needs more optimization so it stops stuttering.

Did you ever try minstrel? The song effects for the skills and the shouts is amazing. But, yeah, the overall world sound mixing is sometimes off.

The OSTs tho... man, I listen while I prepare my D&D campaigns. Love the Shire theme.

My first character was a Minstrel...I got to about level 25 or so and was doing a killing quest of some sort....It mustve taken 5 minutes for him to kill the mobs....Sure he could heal himself fine but oh that awful DPS.....Maybe things have changed over the years but I remember that class was not fun.

But the Minstrel does have a "dps" talent tree. It kill stuff just fine. Your healing is less powerful, but enough to survive. I never had any issues leveling or in dungeons other than, well, tanking - which it is not meant to anyway.

I think that's after they started with the talent trees.

I don't believe that was at the start.

At least, I don't remember my guardian having a dps tree at the start and then they added the trees later on.

That is if memory is serving me well.

BruceYee · July 2021

Nyctelios said:

So... I got an itch to play it again and went to read where to start and what to buy... Oh, boy.

Some expansions are packed... some are not. Some are at Steam store, missing content from what you would get from getting at their site. No option to buy lotro points at Steam store. No option to purchase via Steam wallet... No option to get a race/class pack. No option to get zone/quest packs at their site or Steam...

They have multiple versions of same expansions with sheets comparing which comes with what but every item has fine print explaining most of that information is vague and false... And then you find out even if you'd buy everything you'll be locked out of stuff only subscribers have...

Come on, guys.

The site is kinda broken too. I clicked twice on the expansion list for it and was tossed into the DDO list of expansions for some reason.

FF14 allows me to use my Steam Wallet to buy anything. And we are talking about a Janapese company. Famous for being out of touch with modern world and conveniences.

I invite some friends to play, and they got excited to buy the packs and start as a group... to 10 minutes later disconnect from discord pissed they couldn't find on lotro site information about what else they would have to purchase (in game) to have the complete game.

Come on, guys.

Not a surprise the top Steam Review is a negative complaining about what I just said.

... Come on, guys.

You're right about the mental hula hoops you have to jump through to figure out what you purchased and/or didn't + the different prices/items on Steam vs their site..

Possibly getting Steam + their official site's purchasing functions synced better is something EG7 should work on next? I'm not knocking Digital River cause I used them back in the late 90's and think their support is great. Who knows though... maybe manually inputting each order + sub is how they choose to operate and if it works well for them then why change it? Maybe they have a couple employees dedicated to doing that stuff? I always get quick responses to all my emails so maybe it's a good system for them? Being able to speak with a person who knows game accounts in detail and isn't just some rando customer service person is rare these days..

Po_gg · July 2021

Theocritus said:

My first character was a Minstrel...I got to about level 25 or so and was doing a killing quest of some sort....It mustve taken 5 minutes for him to kill the mobs....Sure he could heal himself fine but oh that awful DPS.....Maybe things have changed over the years but I remember that class was not fun.

In the other thread, about proper classic server and @lahnmir missing the original LM, while me the minstrel... that's what I meant

Pre-Orion minstrel was ton of fun, and a proper healer. Meaning, it was the least solo-friendly class. Sure it was awful dps, since that wasn't its role... but for leveling in groups, and keeping them alive.

There was warspeech and the option for medium armor, but even then it wasn't much viable solo.

Orion changed it into a dps class (on par with the RK), then the trait trees "enhanced" that aspect into a powerhouse... If the old mini wasn't fun for you, give a try to the current one, you'll love it, I'm sure.

(Imo it's ruined now, but that's just my take on it... I miss the old one)

BruceYee said:

If anything the brawler is the most realistic non-fantasy class and IMO a much needed addition to the game. Even if it's a LOTR game with maximum fantasy setting the punching and kicking will be for me a much needed escape from the same old weapon swinging that I've been doing for over a decade now.

I agree with Scot, brawler is just their attempt to get a slice of Wow's monk pie (just as RK and beorning were, mage and druid), and it's the least lore-fitting from the three.

The loss of weapon, and to use anything available could be a good point, the issue is, it's already in the game. Uppercut, headbutt, stoop for a stone and throw it at the mobs, etc., are there for those desperate disarmed moments, and -rightfully so- they don't do much, compared to weapon damage.

The main problem with the brawler is that part, punching trolls and dragons and the balrog into death...

Games with monks (panda or others) have some sort of an explanation for that, based in the lore (chi, for instant), and nothing like that is present, nor fits, into Middle-earth.

Scot · July 2021

lotrlore said:

Scot said:

Sovrath said:

Scot said:

The Brawler is the least lore centric class the game has ever had, Dwarves have never been known particularly for boxing. Using anything to hand in a fight is not what the Brawler does to my knowledge either. Tulkas was a wrestler of course. To me the class owes its origins in brawlers in other MMOs and the studio thought, 'lets have one of those'. It is going to be really interesting to see what they put in the Brawler "Inspired by" line at the end of the class description.

If they feel they must bring in a new CC after this stick to the lore, something like an Animist, mage variant based somewhat on Radagast. Some healing, pets, nature powers.

I think they said it was inspired by Tulkas:

https://lotr.fandom.com/wiki/Tulkas

Tulkas was a wrestler not a boxer, I guess you don't get wrestlers in MMOs because the animations of griping, holding etc npc's would be rather convoluted. If they just put their hands up and said "Ok this is not a lore class, but we like the look of it and we think you will" I would respect that. It is not easy to fit new classes in and Lotro is very solid in that regard, I would not want them to get reliant on new classes, but don't object to a new class just because it is new.

Keep in mind too, even if Tulkas was an inspiration, they likely cannot say for licensing reasons as I'm not sure Tulkas is ever mentioned by name in the actual LotR mythos outside of The Silmarillion, which AFAIK LOTRO doesn't have the rights to.

The only Valar that is named is Orome, so even if Tulkas was a source, it can't be the source, if that makes sense.

Quite right, although Varda is mentioned as Elbereth a few times like when Frodo shouts her name on Weathertop. I had not realised Orome was mentioned. End of the day as long as they don't go into a "BDO new class of the year" design mode it seems reasonable enough.

lotrlore · July 2021

Scot said:

lotrlore said:

Scot said:

Sovrath said:

Scot said:

The Brawler is the least lore centric class the game has ever had, Dwarves have never been known particularly for boxing. Using anything to hand in a fight is not what the Brawler does to my knowledge either. Tulkas was a wrestler of course. To me the class owes its origins in brawlers in other MMOs and the studio thought, 'lets have one of those'. It is going to be really interesting to see what they put in the Brawler "Inspired by" line at the end of the class description.

If they feel they must bring in a new CC after this stick to the lore, something like an Animist, mage variant based somewhat on Radagast. Some healing, pets, nature powers.

I think they said it was inspired by Tulkas:

https://lotr.fandom.com/wiki/Tulkas

Tulkas was a wrestler not a boxer, I guess you don't get wrestlers in MMOs because the animations of griping, holding etc npc's would be rather convoluted. If they just put their hands up and said "Ok this is not a lore class, but we like the look of it and we think you will" I would respect that. It is not easy to fit new classes in and Lotro is very solid in that regard, I would not want them to get reliant on new classes, but don't object to a new class just because it is new.

Keep in mind too, even if Tulkas was an inspiration, they likely cannot say for licensing reasons as I'm not sure Tulkas is ever mentioned by name in the actual LotR mythos outside of The Silmarillion, which AFAIK LOTRO doesn't have the rights to.

The only Valar that is named is Orome, so even if Tulkas was a source, it can't be the source, if that makes sense.

Quite right, although Varda is mentioned as Elbereth a few times like when Frodo shouts her name on Weathertop. I had not realised Orome was mentioned. End of the day as long as they don't go into a "BDO new class of the year" design mode it seems reasonable enough.

Yup, that is true, somehow the fact that Tolkien uses the Grey-Elven name for Varda slipped my mind (when I think Valar I go hardcore with the Quenya or not at all).

Mendel · July 2021

Scot said:

Sovrath said:

Scot said:

The Brawler is the least lore centric class the game has ever had, Dwarves have never been known particularly for boxing. Using anything to hand in a fight is not what the Brawler does to my knowledge either. Tulkas was a wrestler of course. To me the class owes its origins in brawlers in other MMOs and the studio thought, 'lets have one of those'. It is going to be really interesting to see what they put in the Brawler "Inspired by" line at the end of the class description.

If they feel they must bring in a new CC after this stick to the lore, something like an Animist, mage variant based somewhat on Radagast. Some healing, pets, nature powers.

I think they said it was inspired by Tulkas:

https://lotr.fandom.com/wiki/Tulkas

Tulkas was a wrestler not a boxer, I guess you don't get wrestlers in MMOs because the animations of griping, holding etc npc's would be rather convoluted. If they just put their hands up and said "Ok this is not a lore class, but we like the look of it and we think you will" I would respect that. It is not easy to fit new classes in and Lotro is very solid in that regard, I would not want them to get reliant on new classes, but don't object to a new class just because it is new.

Plus, with wrestling, they would have to add animations of every class and critter being prone. There would also need to be new thoughts on the basics of judo - holds, take downs, pins, throws, lifts. At this stage of the game's life, that's an awful lot of change. Naturally, that means work.

BruceYee · July 2021

Po_gg said:

Theocritus said:

The main problem with the brawler is that part, punching trolls and dragons and the balrog into death...
Games with monks (panda or others) have some sort of an explanation for that, based in the lore (chi, for instant), and nothing like that is present, nor fits, into Middle-earth.

Show me an example in any of the trilogy books where a minstrel causes physical harm or even death to a "troll, balrog or dragon" with MUSIC. Maybe instead of archers on the walls at Helm's Deep they could've set up a bunch of minstrels to play their lute's downward against the onslaught of orcs trying to overtake the city...

And don't forget geriatric Gandalf going full Rafiki/Wukong style on orcs built like rhinos in full plate armor...

ALL of LOTRO is a stretch cause it's a friggin' video game and fantasy...

The way people in this thread are completely playing off the power of physical strength makes me think they've never been in situations where the need to recognize/identify it has been necessary... which is a good thing.

If we were comparing our world reality with what makes sense and doesn't then no hobbit could ever be a guardian cause their body size/mass wouldn't be able to carry the armor they wear or even lift the weight of the swords/weapon that would be needed to do any real damage to orcs.

A completely insane/psychopathic dwarf or human brawler with suicidal tendencies punching enemies to death is a lot more believable than a hobbit guardian absorbing the full force of a troll club swing and not flying across an entire field..

Po_gg · July 2021

Nyctelios said:

It is still a healer if you pick the healing talent tree. They didn't remove his role as a healer. It's just most classes makes 2 roles + 1 balanced now.

You can switch between 2 aspects so you can make a side build as healer to run dungeons and stuff.

It's an amazing healer imo. It's my main in that game (for the time I played).

I know, I have one on each server I used to play... just I like to play them far less than before.

"It's just most classes makes 2 roles + 1 balanced now." emphasis by me, that "now" is the key, and a result of why a lot of players have left after the trait trees.

LotRO had unique classes, with an interesting traiting system, and it was watered down into what every other cookie-cutter generic MMO has: first and foremost everyone is a dps on red, then everyone has a mostly decent second line, and on the side a weird and/or funny third line. That's it, end of story, nothing fancy to see here...

As a healer (even my selected role on this site too

), for me it's sad to see that minis are on the top of the popularity list now, and not for their healing... but because of they're the most effective farming/grinding/powerleveling class FFS, and because they outperform hunters (hunters! FFS again) in ranged dps, the dedicated ranged dps class...

Sure, they still can heal, but as I noticed (of course it's just anecdotal evidence, I could be totally wrong in it) the majority of mini players never play as healers, they just enjoy the huge ranged dps, with the potent self-heals alongside.

Po_gg · July 2021

BruceYee said:

Show me an example in any of the trilogy books where a minstrel causes physical harm or even death to a "troll, balrog or dragon" with MUSIC.

As just typed above (and missed your post, we were parallel), originally that wasn't the case. Minis, per design, were boosting the morale of their fellowship, and were pretty weak in combat themselves.

Even with traited fully for damage (by the way, mostly not with music, but with cries and sword+shield) they weren't too good, as Theocritus' memories show.

This "what should I pick for an easy playthrough? Go with the minstrel, that's the best for solo" state is not the original design, rather the result of what you cite as well, the approach of "it's just a vidiyao game".

And true, game already has long stretches... but it was already discussed to the teeth around the brawler's first announcement.

Nothing yet was this far from the lore, not even rune-keepers and beornings, nor high-elves.

McGamer · July 2021

The dev's excuse for the Brawler class tie-in to the lore is based off one dwarf that used a tree limb one time...? That's horrible justification. It just goes to show how out of touch they are with the lore.

Not to mention the fact that it doesn't matter how much they upgrade the graphics, if the P2W cash shop and watered down, over-simplified crafting/farming system still remains in the game.

Po_gg · July 2021

Nyctelios said:

People called me to help them cause, as they said, minstrels are great support.

So maybe some stuff changed in later patches, idk. But he is a powerhouse as healer, at least that was my experience.

I agree and never said they aren't good for healing... feels like we're talking past each other

Old mini was a healer, and that's it.

It also had more flexible traiting (no trees), and was more fun to play (that's just up to tastes, personally I liked it more than the ballad toggles), but the core difference was that it was a healer, period.

It brought itself quite some things, like what Theocritus mentioned (weak dps, hard to solo), and actually quite pointless to solo anyway since besides healing it had no other purpose - in mechanics, since they were the musicians at roleplay events.

It was for an era (which is long gone now, with solo MMORPGs, and zerging as group content), where it was perfectly fine to have a group-focused class, played by players who prefer the group aspect of the game, and have friends and kinship to level up the minstrel with.

My issue with Orion's change was not around the healing part, since not much has changed in that department, Orion mini can heal just as well as the old mini.

My issue, or issues if I may add first a personal one as well: I don't like the ballad toggle gameplay... I'm all over for the warden, but its gambit system is a whole, well-rounded system, while mini's pseudo gambits are just an annoying gimmick.

With that aside, my issue with Orion's change is, it's failed its goal, but wrecked the gameplay of the minstrel (for me at least), for nothing.

That goal was to solve the healer shortage at the end, since leveling a mini required a group and was one of the slowest class.

It was obvious a class change won't help it, since it wasn't a class issue, but a player issue, yet they went with the revamp anyway.

(as time itself proved it within the genre, in most games healing, and support in general, was pushed back to the corner in favor of dps...)

Turbine even had their own data for it, since they've added rune-keepers (the lore breakers

) with Moria before, but that didn't help either.

Sure it was more solo-friendly, but most players after leveled one as dps didn't switch to heal - unless they've had a mini as well and wanted the variety.

Healing takes a whole player, and an easy, solo, dps-focused leveling won't make players into healers...

It's great if you used to heal with it, sometimes I do too... just I don't like it too much, mechanics-wise. Rotating the ballads, throw in some coda and anthem into the mix, kinda boring. The original had more variety and fun.

But that's just imo, and up to personal preferences.

olepi · July 2021

If they were going to create a new class based on LoTR lore, I'd like to see something done with the Blue Wizards.

Remember, there were 5 wizards, two of which were called the Blue Wizards who went into the East and the South. Nothing is ever heard about them again.

"I think that they went as emissaries to distant regions, east and south... Missionaries to enemy occupied lands as it were. What success they had I do not know; but I fear that they failed, as Saruman did, though doubtless in different ways; and I suspect they were founders or beginners of secret cults and "magic" traditions that outlasted the fall of Sauron."

—J.R.R. Tolkien

This leaves the possibilities wide open. Perhaps some kind of spy/wizard. Maybe they had powers to enslave or influence others (NPC's). Maybe they gathered up forces and created zones which rose up against Sauron.

To me, this fits in the lore MUCH better than the Brawler, which is never mentioned at all in LoTR.

olepi · July 2021

Nyctelios said:

olepi said:

If they were going to create a new class based on LoTR lore, I'd like to see something done with the Blue Wizards.

Remember, there were 5 wizards, two of which were called the Blue Wizards who went into the East and the South. Nothing is ever heard about them again.

"I think that they went as emissaries to distant regions, east and south... Missionaries to enemy occupied lands as it were. What success they had I do not know; but I fear that they failed, as Saruman did, though doubtless in different ways; and I suspect they were founders or beginners of secret cults and "magic" traditions that outlasted the fall of Sauron."
—J.R.R. Tolkien

This leaves the possibilities wide open. Perhaps some kind of spy/wizard. Maybe they had powers to enslave or influence others (NPC's). Maybe they gathered up forces and created zones which rose up against Sauron.

To me, this fits in the lore MUCH better than the Brawler, which is never mentioned at all in LoTR.

Ok but... they are not "wizards" as in class as in anyone can be like them. The lore is a bit more comlicated and won't translate to a game the way you are talking.

A zerg of "blue wizards" walking around is as much (or even more) lore breaking then a new class not mentioned in the books.

Originally, they weren't going to have any "magic" classes at all, due to your reasoning. There was only one Gandalf.

And yet, the Lore Master is clearly a wizard. He throws fireballs, calls down lightning, etc, just like Gandalf. And they have pets, just like Radagast. So that ship has sailed long ago.

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