Keep Microsoft away from game developers!

Richter · January 2004

QUESTION TO THE WORLD:

Why is it that every time Microsoft gets involved with a game, being developed by a super-dev team, the game dies an early death?

Turbine got screwed with AC2, Digital Anvil got screwed with Freelancer and I can name a few others.
Microsoft always seem to manage to take out 80% of the real good idea's in a game and replace them with paperthin, hyped non-content, only to sell it to naive customers like us and dump us in customer-service oblivion.

Please, please! Isn't there someone who can keep Microsoft AWAY from garage-dev teams so they can have a fair chance at launching the real nxt-generation MMOG?

I have spoken....

air_head1 · January 2004

ya i have noticed that any game that microsoft touches i try not to touch

Lreguizr · January 2004

I thought freelancer was going to be another space-flight game(using a joystick) type game after the first Starlancer game.

Unfortunitly, I was disappointed when the game was only mouse control with third person by default.

ianubisi · January 2004

Keeping Microsoft away from developers means less games that will come to market. End of story.

Koltrane · January 2004

Originally posted by ianubisi

Keeping Microsoft away from developers means less games that will come to market. End of story.

Absolutely true. It's easy to blame Microsoft for everything bad and give them no credit for the good. I don't doubt that the pressures that Microsoft has brought to bear on some of its developers have had a negative impact on the final product (Dungeon Siege was another underwhelming release, IMO), but no less than EA (who killed Origin Systems and Ultima Worlds Online: Origin) or UbiSoft (who did a number on SB).

Also, MS has been responsible for some outstanding releases. Flight Simulator 2004 is unbelievably good. Age of Empires and Motocross Madness were also very good.

I have my issues with Microsoft, but there's enough blame to go around for poor releases. The publisher isn't the only bad guy.

Lasciate ogne speranza, voi ch'intrate. (written on the SW:G CD)

A: 73% E: 73% S: 40% K: 13%

Regal_TR · January 2004

Keep microsoft away from MMORPGs imo. their greed for money just doesn't work in these types of games.

ianubisi · January 2004

Originally posted by Regal_TR
Keep microsoft away from MMORPGs imo. their greed for money just doesn't work in these types of games.

Grow up and realize that absolutely none of the major MMOGs on the market, short of MUDs and most "free servers" are doing this out of the kindness of their hearts. It's business, and the bottom line of business is profit.

I have no specific love for Microsoft, but suggesting that their profit motive somehow ruins these games ignores the simple fact that every gaming company has exactly the same profit motive. They all make decisions, each and every one of them, that are sometimes driven by the financial bottom-line. It's a fact of life, learn to live with it and you'll enjoy life a whole lot more.

geld · January 2004

Of course game companies want to make money, but the problem is when content is left out, or games are released early due to pressure from the publisher. There often is a difference between creating a game that will sell, compared to creating a game of high quality. I don't think this is something that we should just accept.

Regal_TR · January 2004

Originally posted by ianubisi

Originally posted by Regal_TR
Keep microsoft away from MMORPGs imo. their greed for money just doesn't work in these types of games.

Grow up and realize that absolutely none of the major MMOGs on the market, short of MUDs and most "free servers" are doing this out of the kindness of their hearts. It's business, and the bottom line of business is profit.

I have no specific love for Microsoft, but suggesting that their profit motive somehow ruins these games ignores the simple fact that every gaming company has exactly the same profit motive. They all make decisions, each and every one of them, that are sometimes driven by the financial bottom-line. It's a fact of life, learn to live with it and you'll enjoy life a whole lot more.

I realize its profit.. But Microsoft has ruined a few things with refusal to delay at all..Push out shit just to get money..Other companies are willing to delay. So screw you.

ianubisi · January 2004

Originally posted by Regal_TR
So screw you.

You really do not want to take this to a personal level.

Norikazu · January 2004

If you dont mind me asking, what has brought this rather anti-microsoft bs about?

Microsoft as a company, are 1 of "THE" smartest companies out there. With regards to customer relations and all other aspects Microsoft standards start to fall.

Personnaly i think Microsoft are a brilliant company. Just look at all the good they have done.

1- Tought you how to use a pc (i highly doubt the first system you used was linux so dont even try saying it) Good old Win 3.1.1 was the first OS i ever used.

2- Released OS's that are n00b friendly (XP everything is simply plug it in and the biatch will work .......well...most of the time)

3- Dominated the Market. What more could you want of a company. If its dominating the market. Its got to be doing something write

And backing up ianubsi......not getting personal would be advised.

"I did not have sexual relations with that woman"
"What ever happens, happens"

Koltrane · January 2004

Originally posted by Norikazu

1- Tought you how to use a pc (i highly doubt the first system you used was linux so dont even try saying it) Good old Win 3.1.1 was the first OS i ever used.

Just for the record, the first computer I ever owned did not have an operating system. It was an Apple II+ with 48K (that's right K) of memory. The first computer I ever used was a TRS-80 with 4K of RAM.

Even if most people aren't old timers like me, enough people started out on Macs that it's hard to say that Microsoft was solely responsible for teaching people how to use a PC.

Lasciate ogne speranza, voi ch'intrate. (written on the SW:G CD)

A: 73% E: 73% S: 40% K: 13%

Clever_Glove · January 2004

The 1st PC in my home was XT, it cost 4K and came plastic bags of chips and you needed to solder it together yourself. Took 4 months to build in the basement, It booted to BASIC. Had no hard drive.

I consider the Vic, and later the Commodore64 to by my 1st PC, I used to spend endless hours typing in programs from the back of PC week and save them to audio cassette.

While Bill Gates did write a OS for the Avatar system, he did no write PC-DOS, that IBM used on it's PC's, instead he bought it. You could say bought it and made it better. Using clever contact negations he got to keep the rights to it, witch later became MS-DOS.

Apple/MAC was king of the world in the 80's, It was light years ahead of MS, you have clunky DOS. compared to the Win'95 like MAC OS. (I forget the number that was out then.) Win 3.1 was a joke, and came out years after MAC. To keep this short I won't go into how Apple lost it's position. I think anyone still reading this already knows but if anyone doesn't feel free to post.

Currently MS uses strong arm tactics to push into new markets, word processors, browsers...ect. For example, "Dell if you don't not have IE installed as the only browser on all PC's you sell, we will pull our windows license from you. Try selling PC's without a OS".

This is why I never buy "band name" machines, I always build my from parts I'd rather not pay the MS tax. (I don't need to pay for my machines to come with a OS, I supply those separately)

Evan C. Maloney has written a few good essays on the topic of MS, the bad, the good, and how to deal with them without allot of government intervention.
http://brain-terminal.com/articles/business/microsoft-conundrum.html
http://brain-terminal.com/articles/business/microsoft-tax.html

MS has a bad history of screwing up games. Terminal Velocity, I loved that game until MS bought it... then it was turned to crap. Keeping this short I won't go into all the other games, but I'm sure together we can nearly come with 3 digits worth of games that MS has altered until it wasn't fun.

MS will never do well in the game market under it's current management. You can't dominate the game world the way you can word prossores. The game market is to fickle and far more unforgiving. It will never be as profitable as other MS-lines. With so many MS game failures I'm in shock they keep trying at the game market. I'm starting to think MS games are really nothing more than a marketing attempt so the youth will think better of them?

-=-=-=-=-
"The beauty of MMORPGS is the merging of gaming and chatrooms. EQ is really just AOL merged with a fantasy game." - billus8

Bartle: A: 93% E: 55% S:3% K: 50% Test learn what it means here.

IngenJeggar · January 2004

Sigil Games Online just got Backed by Microsoft and I really don't see Brad McQuaid getting told to push his game out the window. He is reluctant to even release any information on his game at the moment. With the team he has put together it should be very interesting to see what people have to say when information is released.

Ingen Jeggar
My Little Project http://www.geocities.com/nathan4925/Ingen_Jeggar.html?1073511788187

Clever_Glove · January 2004

Originally posted by IngenJeggar
Sigil Games Online just got Backed by Microsoft and I really don't see Brad McQuaid getting told to push his game out the window. He is reluctant to even release any information on his game at the moment. With the team he has put together it should be very interesting to see what people have to say when information is released.

Ingen Jeggar
My Little Project http://www.geocities.com/nathan4925/Ingen_Jeggar.html?1073511788187

MS known for it's poor games

Brad McQaid, was the raise and fall and EQ. He has learned that large periods of time without doing anything is good. Long travel times are fun. Making mobs to tough that 300 people are needed to kill them is good. Allowing people to solo is bad for the game. Yep, I'm sure sigil games will be making on fine, fun game!

MS + Brad = ????????

Well I think you can guess end product is.

-=-=-=-=-
"The beauty of MMORPGS is the merging of gaming and chatrooms. EQ is really just AOL merged with a fantasy game." - billus8

Bartle: A: 93% E: 55% S:3% K: 50% Test learn what it means here.

IngenJeggar · January 2004

Brad McQaid, was the raise and fall and EQ. He has learned that large periods of time without doing anything is good. Long travel times are fun. Making mobs to tough that 300 people are needed to kill them is good. Allowing people to solo is bad for the game. Yep, I'm sure sigil games will be making on fine, fun game!

I am guessing you are using sarcasim. So the 93% Adventurer in your bartel test was false or you didn t play the very first EQ. And he didn t make EQ fall either he resigned when the game and him were going in different directions. And knowing you are using sarcasm when you state 300 people are needed to kill one creature is a false statement becuase you can barely put 150 + in a zone with out it lagging or crashing on most games especially EQ. And if you have even read his new site or been ont he forums or saw the chat he participated in he has stated that

Some downtime is good... resting between fights, memming up, healing, strategizing for the next battle, using the restroom, grabbing a Dr. Pepper... But too much downtime means you're not really playing the game, and that's bad.
Boats were put into EQ because we thought (and still do think) that travel should mean something, and that far way lands should be exotic... traveling somewhere distant should be an accomplishment as much as anything else. But they turned out to be boring... you'd sit on them, doing very little, which means you weren't playing the game.
So, the trick is to make it such that travel is still meaningful, distant lands are still distant and exotic, but to make the journey fun and interesting in and of itself. This is really one of those areas where, like instancing, I feel there is a trend to 'throw the baby out with the bath water': traveling has been boring, so let's get rid of travel! Teleport where thou willt!
Sigil's philosophy on this and many other issues is to attack the problem, not the premise (assuming the premise is sound, and I think almost all of us want distant lands to have an allure and a rarity, and to be rewarded for exploration).

Just Hoping you might actually have some kind of back up if you are going to make a sarcastic post.

Ingen Jeggar
My Little Project http://www.geocities.com/nathan4925/Ingen_Jeggar.html?1073511788187

Clever_Glove · January 2004

If you smart enough to figure out the bartle test, then your smart enough to figure out my true intent.

I'm not sure why you want to challenge me on such a subjective issue. But as far as Brads intent goes here's another post where I lay out brad quotes from the last couple years on game design.

http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion.cfm?load=forums&loadForum=51&loadThread=6471&jumptopost=69758

I list my sources at the bottom of this post.

let me ask you this, What does making travel meaningful mean? That sounds great, but you have ask yourself how would that be implemented?

"Boats were put into EQ because we thought (and still do think) that travel should mean something"

Bring back the boats!

http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion.cfm?load=forums&loadForum=51&loadThread=7039&jumptopost=73896#73896

If you want to spend 75% of your game time waiting for things to happen, knock yourself out.

If you agree with Brad, then I'm happy for you. May Sigil produce your prefect game. But me and my monthly payments will be going elsewhere.

-=-=-=-=-
"The beauty of MMORPGS is the merging of gaming and chatrooms. EQ is really just AOL merged with a fantasy game." - billus8

Bartle: A: 93% E: 55% S:3% K: 50% Test learn what it means here.

Serien · January 2004

i heard a rumour that microsoft and intel are developing this system that every piece of softawre has to be digitally signed to work.

that means no sharing music/files/videos

if you develop a game, at least 25% of your earnings goes to microsoft.

and if you build a computer, you have to register it along with everything on it.

your own computer will have this software installed (uninstallable) that will report you if you pirate anything

i hate microsoft...but i like win xp

but i can say this atleast...i hate intel

nolf · January 2004

Yeah, I would agree with that statement. I would also have to say that SOE is really running their rep through the mud as well. SWG =

Flon Gerg

Serien · January 2004

Well I don't want to get off topic here, but ima just say one thing really quick

the reason that SWG really sucked was not because it was developed by SOE...but more of the fact that Lucas Arts helped out...

trust me...soe would not have done that bad alone...it was lucas arts that did it..

but back on topic....

Clever_Glove · January 2004

But yeah glove i see what you are saying, but i mean you go off about how they buy company and ruin the game...i am still not getting this are they only publishing? so isn't it the guys who make the game ruining it? i don't understand this part. Or is there just some sort of evilness that destroys the developers when they are tainted by money from MS. lol

I believe MS is doing fine with their games everyone I have I like, but i mean thats opinion. But then I know they have lost a lot of money with the XBOX, everything has failed and there has been little money made...but they have so much money it is irrelevant and tehy will just puch till they do make profit. THough i mean you guys are talking about PC games...what on the xbox has microsoft touched and destroyed supposedly? and it also seems to me you guys are doing fine living without these games and the some of the ones you have named were not really un-godly popular...

I'm not on the inside, so I don't know for sure what MS does. I do know that they tend to ruin about 90% of the game they touch. So they must be influencing the game companies somehow.

Let's give a genic example of how this might happen.

MS buy game company X. MS likes to make money, X has been doing fair but not the levels a company like MS expects on it's returns. So they tell X they will add Y and Z to the game so it will appeal to more players. Maybe X needs to make the game easier to play, or have more nearly naked woman. Often they will change "core" game elements in the interest of making the game appeal greater, witch leads to watering down the game into something that is no longer fun to play.

MS expects a certain return, they will make the changes software executives think need to be made to make the game appeal to the largest market share. All to often software executives know little about games, or what makes them fun to play. As a result you get the long list of game that suck after MS has touched them.

This is a bit different that conversation about MS in other area's. Sorry if I was clear on that. And I able to tell the outcome of what they do by the effects they have on the games they buy.

Generally this doesn't apply to the XBOX as is XBOX is their baby. How can say MS screwed up a game that was just released? If we never see what the game was before MS how would we know?

I'm only refering to games that exsisted before MS.

I fail to see what the games popularity has to do with it? They ruined games I enjoyed playing. Unless your saying it's only bad to hurt games that have a 90% market share?

-=-=-=-=-
"The beauty of MMORPGS is the merging of gaming and chatrooms. EQ is really just AOL merged with a fantasy game." - billus8

Bartle: A: 93% E: 55% S:3% K: 50% Test learn what it means here.

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