I played D&D, Superheroes Unlimited and Shadowrun when I was a kid - like a million years ago. I played with several groups until I lost interest around high school. Not sure if a single DM that I played with followed the rules stringently. It was always more about riffing stories with each other with occasional dice rolls on fights and stuff. I only died once in all the games - it was at the end of a dungeon when I rolled 100 on a 100 sided die. That uncannily bad number roll luck followed me well into the MMORPG age.
If I still played table top RPGs, I think I would still want to do it this way.
The problem is, the 'rules' for D&D essentially said that the DM can override everything. It was sheer marketing genius -- make up a set of rules and play it. Also, give TSR $30 for this set of books. Later, to become $30 for a single book that everyone will want/need.
The first modern cash shops? It's got to be between TSR and Ral Partha.
D&D rules have always been haphazard and murky. Back in the day, we called it VD&D (varient D&D), because so many edge cases existed that each GM had to make up their own local house rules.
Talking to some serious D&D designers, their opinion was that the way D&D required GMs to come up with their own rules systems to make D&D playable, ended up being the training ground for the font of future pro game designers.
I was already playing a PBM roleplaying game when D&D came out, so I got the rules, of course. As soon as the rise of the 2nd generation (Runequest and Champions/Hero for me) happened I left the sloppy precincts of D&D behind.
Of course, if you have a good GM, you play whatever system they want. Fortunately for me, my pnp gaming has had decades of good GMing.
Same here, when you talk about leaving DnD behind you do get some pissed off looks from die hard fans. But there is a reason that DC got replaced with AC for city wide power infrastructure, the first is not always the best. That's why I scratch my head at how popular it is in video games, but it is The Brand and studios want a slice of that.
Like I said DnD is ingrained in our psyche, it is a marketing dream for a computer game.
I think
”Dungeons” & “Dragons” encapsulates every boyhood imagination.
I lived, ate and breathed Ray Harryhausen movies when I was a kid. Luckily I had mountains, forests and good friends to live our crazy adventures with.
Had many a wooden sword and rifle… had many an adventure
THAC0 was one of those. Math! Thanks to all different systems I was able to hone my mental calculation skills quite a bit. "To Hot AC 0(zero)" refers to the roll required for a character to score a hit on a hypothetical opponent with an armor class of zero, which in turn is used to calculate other attack rolls.If an opponent has an AC of 4 (chainmail in AD&D), that adds +4 to whatever your THAC0 was.
History was helped along by playing in different worlds, some of them earth. Even in those strange lands about different cultures, politics, religions that our DM/GM spent hours talking to us players about.
Teamwork was the other main lesson learned. Knowing my character and that of the other characters helped us all make plans of differing complications and successes to find "a way", but not always the "best way."
What other skills have others learned through tabletop RPGs?
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
I played D&D, Superheroes Unlimited and Shadowrun when I was a kid - like a million years ago. I played with several groups until I lost interest around high school. Not sure if a single DM that I played with followed the rules stringently. It was always more about riffing stories with each other with occasional dice rolls on fights and stuff. I only died once in all the games - it was at the end of a dungeon when I rolled 100 on a 100 sided die. That uncannily bad number roll luck followed me well into the MMORPG age.
If I still played table top RPGs, I think I would still want to do it this way.
The problem is, the 'rules' for D&D essentially said that the DM can override everything. It was sheer marketing genius -- make up a set of rules and play it. Also, give TSR $30 for this set of books. Later, to become $30 for a single book that everyone will want/need.
The first modern cash shops? It's got to be between TSR and Ral Partha.
D&D rules have always been haphazard and murky. Back in the day, we called it VD&D (varient D&D), because so many edge cases existed that each GM had to make up their own local house rules.
Talking to some serious D&D designers, their opinion was that the way D&D required GMs to come up with their own rules systems to make D&D playable, ended up being the training ground for the font of future pro game designers.
I was already playing a PBM roleplaying game when D&D came out, so I got the rules, of course. As soon as the rise of the 2nd generation (Runequest and Champions/Hero for me) happened I left the sloppy precincts of D&D behind.
Of course, if you have a good GM, you play whatever system they want. Fortunately for me, my pnp gaming has had decades of good GMing.
I find it interesting to look at how table top role playing games evolved. D&D started the trend where everyone needed/wanted the books/dice/miniatures/etc. They started with very high level, almost abstract rules and moved into more detailed, elaborate rules (Rolemaster (ICE), Chivalry & Sorcery, and RuneQuest (Chaosium)) as the genre matured. Vampire the Masquerade and other systems came along that even removed the primary randomization tool - the dice -- effectively creating a more story-telling subgenre. Established board gaming companies like SPI and Avalon Hills entered the RPG arena and tried (mostly unsuccessfully) to bring the runaway success back to its military board gaming roots.
Companies focused on different things -- GURPS and D20 tried to expand the games into every nook and cranny of fiction; Ringworld went overboard on Larry Niven (quite faithfully, too); Paranoia set the GM against the players to almost extreme levels; Traveler focused on the mechanics of representing hardware, technology, and worlds in games. LARP even became a thing at conventions and weekend retreats.
Lots of varied, different approaches to the concept of role-playing. It's really depressing to see how companies have chosen to tackle the very definition of 'what is role playing', while our beloved MMORPG genre clings stubbornly to the ideas laid out by the first generation.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Ah yes, THAC0. When I first played Baldurs Gate, to my amazement I could raise my AC by undressing my armor. Which is why I ran around without armor for a while, thinking I had better defenses this way.
I also played a Bard and I didnt reroll my stats, or even just reordered them, because I wasnt aware that was a thing.
Having confusing inverse logic for armor is just the smallest problem of D&D1 and AD&D though.
Overall I would much prefer systems that are actually designed for the computer. The advantage of D&D in the computer is of course that the system is already worked out and offers a lot of complexity, while anything designed for the computer has to get a lot of work in before it gets good.
Really the only cases in which systems designed for the computer beat D&D is when you have a MMORPG and the developers can, over the years, get a lot of balancing and redesigning in.
One thing that occurred to me; how many of the players that would describe their overall guild experience as negative have also never been officers in a guild? That rather gives you a whole new perspective on how difficult it is to run a guild and keep everyone happy.
One thing that occurred to me; how many of the players that would describe their overall guild experience as negative have also never been officers in a guild? That rather gives you a whole new perspective on how difficult it is to run a guild and keep everyone happy.
Totally agree. I’ve got a core group of guys I play with and when we start a new game it’s always the guy who draws the short stick that has to be the GM that game. Not to deal with us but any external parties as well as some new recruits that we might add. In WoW we grew to over 100 and it was an eye opener. Who is dating who... breakups... not enough time helping new people... not enough time spent pushing top tier content...who is signing up for events and never showing... who is not signing up and then mad there is no room.
Screw that. Never gotten bigger than 20 in any game since.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
I hate playing at the table top, truth be told. Everyone wanted to the king shit, even the DM.
It was more an E-peen waving event, then it was a fun game of make believe, as such, when IMMO's arrived, I dove into them like a starving fat kid on a Twinkie.
I loved not having to deal with numb nuts rules lawyers, and people who whined like little shits if their 1st level shit character was not a god being in the campaign setting.
Which no doubt is also why the Solo MMO player has arisen, as even in MMO's people don't want to deal with whiny bitches, "OMG, you need a 120K gear score for this level 5 quest, or GTFO!"
Anyway.
I liked the idea of D&D, loved the setting, the lore, the rules, I loved that it was all mapped out, and all you needed to do was build the setting, allowing for all kinds of options.
So when I found DDO, I fell in love with the game, it was all that was great about D&D minus a huge part of the suck.
Anyway... to be honest, it irritates to tears that MMO's still seem to use D&D as a base, because even GG and DA, said that the rules were simplified for table top play, and they used easy numbers to address complex situations.. situations and calculations that MMO's could do.. but don't, because like WoW Clones have stagnated progress, games being built off D&D have also stagnated progress.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
I hate playing at the table top, truth be told. Everyone wanted to the king shit, even the DM.
It was more an E-peen waving event, then it was a fun game of make believe, as such, when IMMO's arrived, I dove into them like a starving fat kid on a Twinkie.
I loved not having to deal with numb nuts rules lawyers, and people who whined like little shits if their 1st level shit character was not a god being in the campaign setting.
Isn't that more about the people you played with? No one I played DnD with was ever like that. Probably because they were my friends and my friends aren't like that.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
I played D&D, Superheroes Unlimited and Shadowrun when I was a kid - like a million years ago. I played with several groups until I lost interest around high school. Not sure if a single DM that I played with followed the rules stringently. It was always more about riffing stories with each other with occasional dice rolls on fights and stuff. I only died once in all the games - it was at the end of a dungeon when I rolled 100 on a 100 sided die. That uncannily bad number roll luck followed me well into the MMORPG age.
If I still played table top RPGs, I think I would still want to do it this way.
I hate playing at the table top, truth be told. Everyone wanted to the king shit, even the DM.
It was more an E-peen waving event, then it was a fun game of make believe, as such, when IMMO's arrived, I dove into them like a starving fat kid on a Twinkie.
I loved not having to deal with numb nuts rules lawyers, and people who whined like little shits if their 1st level shit character was not a god being in the campaign setting.
Isn't that more about the people you played with? No one I played DnD with was ever like that. Probably because they were my friends and my friends aren't like that.
Most of my real life friends, people that I shared a lot of interests with, were not into geek gaming, we were hands on kids, we would work on cars, trucks, build and fix shit, talk about tools and girls while we were doing it, you know, typical wrench turners, with a dream job of being able to work on hot rods or motorcycles, I was the only one that also wanted to play the geek and nerd games like D&D.
So I didn't have that static of RL people with me when I got into gaming.
But I tried, I was in a High School Gaming Group, and most of them were like living vicariously through their characters, and they also would not shut up about how great their character was.
I later joined a College Gaming Group, thinking they would not be asshats, you know, since they were older and more mature, yah.. LOL.. I know.. anyway... lo and behold, asshats, who again would not shut up about their characters.
I didn't really find people that I clicked with, till I started playing Online.
To each their own.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
I hate playing at the table top, truth be told. Everyone wanted to the king shit, even the DM.
It was more an E-peen waving event, then it was a fun game of make believe, as such, when IMMO's arrived, I dove into them like a starving fat kid on a Twinkie.
I loved not having to deal with numb nuts rules lawyers, and people who whined like little shits if their 1st level shit character was not a god being in the campaign setting.
Isn't that more about the people you played with? No one I played DnD with was ever like that. Probably because they were my friends and my friends aren't like that.
Most of my real life friends, people that I shared a lot of interests with, were not into geek gaming, we were hands on kids, we would work on cars, trucks, build and fix shit, talk about tools and girls while we were doing it, you know, typical wrench turners, with a dream job of being able to work on hot rods or motorcycles, I was the only one that also wanted to play the geek and nerd games like D&D.
So I didn't have that static of RL people with me when I got into gaming.
But I tried, I was in a High School Gaming Group, and most of them were like living vicariously through their characters, and they also would not shut up about how great their character was.
I later joined a College Gaming Group, thinking they would not be asshats, you know, since they were older and more mature, yah.. LOL.. I know.. anyway... lo and behold, asshats, who again would not shut up about their characters.
I didn't really find people that I clicked with, till I started playing Online.
To each their own.
That's probably why I stopped playing table top games as most of my friends from college onward weren't really "that" interested. I have a few here and there but They are the exception.
I just don't have tolerance for people I don't like when it comes to playing games so I just went without, with a few exceptions when some of my table top friends wanted to play a "one off."
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
I hate playing at the table top, truth be told. Everyone wanted to the king shit, even the DM.
It was more an E-peen waving event, then it was a fun game of make believe, as such, when IMMO's arrived, I dove into them like a starving fat kid on a Twinkie.
I loved not having to deal with numb nuts rules lawyers, and people who whined like little shits if their 1st level shit character was not a god being in the campaign setting.
Isn't that more about the people you played with? No one I played DnD with was ever like that. Probably because they were my friends and my friends aren't like that.
Most of my real life friends, people that I shared a lot of interests with, were not into geek gaming, we were hands on kids, we would work on cars, trucks, build and fix shit, talk about tools and girls while we were doing it, you know, typical wrench turners, with a dream job of being able to work on hot rods or motorcycles, I was the only one that also wanted to play the geek and nerd games like D&D.
So I didn't have that static of RL people with me when I got into gaming.
But I tried, I was in a High School Gaming Group, and most of them were like living vicariously through their characters, and they also would not shut up about how great their character was.
I later joined a College Gaming Group, thinking they would not be asshats, you know, since they were older and more mature, yah.. LOL.. I know.. anyway... lo and behold, asshats, who again would not shut up about their characters.
I didn't really find people that I clicked with, till I started playing Online.
To each their own.
I guess I was "blessed" that the group of 10-12 regular players I played with shared a very similar sense of humor. We all were in our high school's debate/speech programs, so I think that helped us. We did have a couple of "problem players", but found their drama and stopped inviting them to play. One liked PvP scenarios (the thief that steals from other players and sows distrust within the group). Another player was the "gimme gimme" type, no matter who could best use an item.
One thing I could not get into was going to a local hobby shop or gaming conventions and playing pick up games. I'm not a "forward" type of personality. I'm one who tries to get "the feel" of a room before saying much. That kind of setting just didn't appealed to me. Also, many gamers that look for that type of experience, I found kind of off-putting. I guess it may have been a kind of "in person anonymity" to predate internet anonymity
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Comments
(I have nothing else to contribute, lol)
”Dungeons” & “Dragons” encapsulates every boyhood imagination.
I lived, ate and breathed Ray Harryhausen movies when I was a kid. Luckily I had mountains, forests and good friends to live our crazy adventures with.
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
THAC0 was one of those. Math! Thanks to all different systems I was able to hone my mental calculation skills quite a bit. "To Hot AC 0(zero)" refers to the roll required for a character to score a hit on a hypothetical opponent with an armor class of zero, which in turn is used to calculate other attack rolls.If an opponent has an AC of 4 (chainmail in AD&D), that adds +4 to whatever your THAC0 was.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
It was more an E-peen waving event, then it was a fun game of make believe, as such, when IMMO's arrived, I dove into them like a starving fat kid on a Twinkie.
I loved not having to deal with numb nuts rules lawyers, and people who whined like little shits if their 1st level shit character was not a god being in the campaign setting.
Which no doubt is also why the Solo MMO player has arisen, as even in MMO's people don't want to deal with whiny bitches, "OMG, you need a 120K gear score for this level 5 quest, or GTFO!"
Anyway.
I liked the idea of D&D, loved the setting, the lore, the rules, I loved that it was all mapped out, and all you needed to do was build the setting, allowing for all kinds of options.
So when I found DDO, I fell in love with the game, it was all that was great about D&D minus a huge part of the suck.
Anyway... to be honest, it irritates to tears that MMO's still seem to use D&D as a base, because even GG and DA, said that the rules were simplified for table top play, and they used easy numbers to address complex situations.. situations and calculations that MMO's could do.. but don't, because like WoW Clones have stagnated progress, games being built off D&D have also stagnated progress.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
D&D was great until we discovered girls.....
So I didn't have that static of RL people with me when I got into gaming.
But I tried, I was in a High School Gaming Group, and most of them were like living vicariously through their characters, and they also would not shut up about how great their character was.
I later joined a College Gaming Group, thinking they would not be asshats, you know, since they were older and more mature, yah.. LOL.. I know.. anyway... lo and behold, asshats, who again would not shut up about their characters.
I didn't really find people that I clicked with, till I started playing Online.
To each their own.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR