Some of my D&D group wanted more "realistic" combat. We tried some suggestions we read Dragon Magazine and made some tweaks. What we were looking for was "hit location" type of combat. That quickly spiraled into a summer of extraordinarily long fights. Roll to hit, roll location, roll damage, adjust for location percentage (legs/arms/body/head), and figure out "disfigurement", if any. We gave up after that summer
The simplified combat had become quite enjoyable after that experiment
See this is the thing.
What gets me about a lot of modern MMO's is they could build for that more dynamic, more realistic combat, where you have each limb having it's own HP totals, armor, and things like that, and each attack is made at a limb, and all this super cool shit..
But they don't, they keep the game as simplistic as it would be if you were trying to run this at the table top.
and that is really where the crying shame happens in all this.
They could make amazing dynamic games, with all kinds of cool features like that, and they don't.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Some of my D&D group wanted more "realistic" combat. We tried some suggestions we read Dragon Magazine and made some tweaks. What we were looking for was "hit location" type of combat. That quickly spiraled into a summer of extraordinarily long fights. Roll to hit, roll location, roll damage, adjust for location percentage (legs/arms/body/head), and figure out "disfigurement", if any. We gave up after that summer
The simplified combat had become quite enjoyable after that experiment
See this is the thing.
What gets me about a lot of modern MMO's is they could build for that more dynamic, more realistic combat, where you have each limb having it's own HP totals, armor, and things like that, and each attack is made at a limb, and all this super cool shit..
But they don't, they keep the game as simplistic as it would be if you were trying to run this at the table top.
and that is really where the crying shame happens in all this.
They could make amazing dynamic games, with all kinds of cool features like that, and they don't.
Very true. The computer can handle the difficulties (and the math) to increase the complexity in modeling the human body and combat. Instead, they appear to be stuck in a simplistic mindset. "D&D did it this way, so we must too". Sadly very few have really attempted to do something different. Nobody has even added next level concepts like throws, knockdowns, and holds. (Or aim high, aim low).
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Some of my D&D group wanted more "realistic" combat. We tried some suggestions we read Dragon Magazine and made some tweaks. What we were looking for was "hit location" type of combat. That quickly spiraled into a summer of extraordinarily long fights. Roll to hit, roll location, roll damage, adjust for location percentage (legs/arms/body/head), and figure out "disfigurement", if any. We gave up after that summer
The simplified combat had become quite enjoyable after that experiment
See this is the thing.
What gets me about a lot of modern MMO's is they could build for that more dynamic, more realistic combat, where you have each limb having it's own HP totals, armor, and things like that, and each attack is made at a limb, and all this super cool shit..
But they don't, they keep the game as simplistic as it would be if you were trying to run this at the table top.
and that is really where the crying shame happens in all this.
They could make amazing dynamic games, with all kinds of cool features like that, and they don't.
For most MMOs targeting individual limbs would not be cool, it would just be too unwieldy for players to control their hit location targets in real time.
Some of my D&D group wanted more "realistic" combat. We tried some suggestions we read Dragon Magazine and made some tweaks. What we were looking for was "hit location" type of combat. That quickly spiraled into a summer of extraordinarily long fights. Roll to hit, roll location, roll damage, adjust for location percentage (legs/arms/body/head), and figure out "disfigurement", if any. We gave up after that summer
The simplified combat had become quite enjoyable after that experiment
See this is the thing.
What gets me about a lot of modern MMO's is they could build for that more dynamic, more realistic combat, where you have each limb having it's own HP totals, armor, and things like that, and each attack is made at a limb, and all this super cool shit..
But they don't, they keep the game as simplistic as it would be if you were trying to run this at the table top.
and that is really where the crying shame happens in all this.
They could make amazing dynamic games, with all kinds of cool features like that, and they don't.
Very true. The computer can handle the difficulties (and the math) to increase the complexity in modeling the human body and combat. Instead, they appear to be stuck in a simplistic mindset. "D&D did it this way, so we must too". Sadly very few have really attempted to do something different. Nobody has even added next level concepts like throws, knockdowns, and holds. (Or aim high, aim low).
Computers have enough power that their ability to do complex modeling is irrelevant. The question player's ability to notice info from the screen, do decision based on that, coordinate those decisions with the rest of the group, and control their characters actions.
Some of my D&D group wanted more "realistic" combat. We tried some suggestions we read Dragon Magazine and made some tweaks. What we were looking for was "hit location" type of combat. That quickly spiraled into a summer of extraordinarily long fights. Roll to hit, roll location, roll damage, adjust for location percentage (legs/arms/body/head), and figure out "disfigurement", if any. We gave up after that summer
The simplified combat had become quite enjoyable after that experiment
See this is the thing.
What gets me about a lot of modern MMO's is they could build for that more dynamic, more realistic combat, where you have each limb having it's own HP totals, armor, and things like that, and each attack is made at a limb, and all this super cool shit..
But they don't, they keep the game as simplistic as it would be if you were trying to run this at the table top.
and that is really where the crying shame happens in all this.
They could make amazing dynamic games, with all kinds of cool features like that, and they don't.
For most MMOs targeting individual limbs would not be cool, it would just be too unwieldy for players to control their hit location targets in real time.
My idea of perfect "targeting" in MMOs is how my GunLancer is in LA, as long as I'm within 20M my AOEs land, don't even have to face my target.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Some of my D&D group wanted more "realistic" combat. We tried some suggestions we read Dragon Magazine and made some tweaks. What we were looking for was "hit location" type of combat. That quickly spiraled into a summer of extraordinarily long fights. Roll to hit, roll location, roll damage, adjust for location percentage (legs/arms/body/head), and figure out "disfigurement", if any. We gave up after that summer
The simplified combat had become quite enjoyable after that experiment
See this is the thing.
What gets me about a lot of modern MMO's is they could build for that more dynamic, more realistic combat, where you have each limb having it's own HP totals, armor, and things like that, and each attack is made at a limb, and all this super cool shit..
But they don't, they keep the game as simplistic as it would be if you were trying to run this at the table top.
and that is really where the crying shame happens in all this.
They could make amazing dynamic games, with all kinds of cool features like that, and they don't.
Very true. The computer can handle the difficulties (and the math) to increase the complexity in modeling the human body and combat. Instead, they appear to be stuck in a simplistic mindset. "D&D did it this way, so we must too". Sadly very few have really attempted to do something different. Nobody has even added next level concepts like throws, knockdowns, and holds. (Or aim high, aim low).
Wanna know what goads the hell out of me, I used to play Dragonrealms (Gemstone IV) it's a text based MUD/MMO, and they had all this dynamic shit, 28 Years ago!
And today, with MMO's it feels like we dumbed the whole system down, and not for the better.
I mean, casting was levels of coolness in Dragonrealms. Regions had their own mana supply, divided by Arcane, Holy, and Life. So if you were in a jungle you would have more Life Mana in the region, being near holy places or places of divine events would have more holy power, and Arcane fluxed, like a river throughout the game world, so at one time a area could be high in arcane energy and another time low.
So players would need to first perceive the power in the area they were in, and then once they had that, they could prep a spell. While you didn't need to know the power in a area to prep a spell, it helped to know how much you could prep.
and of course the higher your ability to perceive the mana, the more you could find, so at starting ranks, everything felt empty, as you went up, you noticed some areas had more than others, as you got higher and higher, you could see a great variance in how much power was around you, as well as see more power in each room, so in a room that was at one time perhaps no noticeable mana, after many ranks gained, you could go in and find traces of it, maybe not much, but enough to cast some spells, and then later, you can find more, and be able to cast even more spells in an area that at one time you could not cast any.
I loved that aspect.
Then you would prep a spell, and pick how much mana you wanted to pull from the region, say 1 mana, or 10 mana, or whatever, you typed this in. And depending on your ability to perceive the mana and your ability to harness it, and how much was there, would determine if you could pull that much mana from the area to power your spell.
Then you would wait till the spell was ready, and finally cast it at a target. Your harness and spell casting ranks would determine how long it took you to ready the spell, and your concentration would determine if you could hold that spell while getting hit or otherwise distracted.
In this case, you could be in combat, fighting with weapons while also casting spells.
Once cast, how well it worked would depend on your direct spell casting skill, like your Life Magic Casting Ranks, and Magical Targeting Ranks, etc.
This us was not some simple "You have 10K Spell Points to Blow the Shit out of stuff, go have fun!"
And to be honest, I really wish they would make an MMO with that level of dynamic to things like casting.
Combat was not any less involved. You had various kinds of attacks, you also had Stamina, Balance, Overall Weapon Skill, Exact Weapon Skill. This means that you had a base skill rank of how well you could just fight in general, and a skill rank based on that direct weapon style. You could use direct targeted attacks, like aiming for the head, but this would reduce your hitbox, and make it harder for you to land a blow there, but if you hit, it did more damage, and could insta-kill.
Armor, which you could vary, meaning you could have a heavy helm and leather arms, and depending on where you got hit, would depend on what armor skill you used to deflect or brushoff the blow. You had an overall dodge skill, and then you had armor ranks in each armor you were wearing.
And all this, balance, stamina, skills, would combine into each hit you made, and each time you were attacked.
Modern MMO's with tons more power, more tools, more stuff to work with, come across as rudimentary children's games in contrast to that.
And this was stuff we were playing 28 years ago, on dial-up, on computers that have less power than your phone today.
We could be making so much better ..but we don't.. not because we can't.. we just don't.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
And today, with MMO's it feels like we dumbed the whole system down, and not for the better.
I think that seems like a nightmare. I would offer that just because things are simpler doesn't mean it's "dumbed down."
Not to say simple is better but it really does depends on the audience, what one wants to accomplish with such a system, etc.
As I've mentioned before, I completely stripped down the dungeons and dragons rules for my campaign as I noticed that playing was incredibly dull. Everything would stop for too many dice rolls. It was as if we invested in our time in tedium instead of an exciting swashbuckling adventure.
But again, that depends on the audience. I know of tabletop games that apparently have turns that take an incredibly long time.
My thought is that any system has to support the idea of "is it fun?"
Does all of it contribute to an enjoyable time?
If not then it doesn't work.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Some of my D&D group wanted more "realistic" combat. We tried some suggestions we read Dragon Magazine and made some tweaks. What we were looking for was "hit location" type of combat. That quickly spiraled into a summer of extraordinarily long fights. Roll to hit, roll location, roll damage, adjust for location percentage (legs/arms/body/head), and figure out "disfigurement", if any. We gave up after that summer
The simplified combat had become quite enjoyable after that experiment
See this is the thing.
What gets me about a lot of modern MMO's is they could build for that more dynamic, more realistic combat, where you have each limb having it's own HP totals, armor, and things like that, and each attack is made at a limb, and all this super cool shit..
But they don't, they keep the game as simplistic as it would be if you were trying to run this at the table top.
and that is really where the crying shame happens in all this.
They could make amazing dynamic games, with all kinds of cool features like that, and they don't.
For most MMOs targeting individual limbs would not be cool, it would just be too unwieldy for players to control their hit location targets in real time.
My idea of perfect "targeting" in MMOs is how my GunLancer is in LA, as long as I'm within 20M my AOEs land, don't even have to face my target.
Yeah, I'm lazy like that....so sue me.
Our mere presence should be enough for you. Now be a dear and drop dead so we can go rest. All this fancy fighting has exhausted our royal catness.
Constantine, The Console Poster
"One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others may despise it, is the invention of good games and it cannot be done by men out of touch with their instinctive selves." - Carl Jung
"I ask myself why do so many games have it where melee classes can use an unlimited amount of attacks all fight, but casters have either a limited number of spells, or have to manage mana and switch to melee for long fights?"
Because the class can attack at range, can hit multiple targets, does not have to worry about hitting friendlies, often does not have the item decay or staminamana concerns of fighterscasters, does not have the resource burn of archers (spell comps/reagents being a thing of the past), and usually has spells equivalent in power to lightning strikes, C4, earthquakes, and nukes.
Some kind of restriction is needed.
Ok so I fixed your post to apply to melee and highlighted the difference. Notice there is no difference other than Over Powered spells and attack at range for casters. That's it! So as I stated to balance the OP IWIN spells they are killing mana usage instead. Remove the OP spells give them other tools then remove the mana and let them play the class. Solved!
Just as a side note, in many games now, archers/guns don't use resources, which I agree with, completely unfair and trivial to play. Only used for realism which is a joke, because guns would 1 shot melee all day in real life, so realism is out the window.
Entire point of these games is to have fun, not messing with your inventory with resource management for casters and archers.
And today, with MMO's it feels like we dumbed the whole system down, and not for the better.
I think that seems like a nightmare. I would offer that just because things are simpler doesn't mean it's "dumbed down."
Not to say simple is better but it really does depends on the audience, what one wants to accomplish with such a system, etc.
As I've mentioned before, I completely stripped down the dungeons and dragons rules for my campaign as I noticed that playing was incredibly dull. Everything would stop for too many dice rolls. It was as if we invested in our time in tedium instead of an exciting swashbuckling adventure.
But again, that depends on the audience. I know of tabletop games that apparently have turns that take an incredibly long time.
My thought is that any system has to support the idea of "is it fun?"
Does all of it contribute to an enjoyable time?
If not then it doesn't work.
The thing is, with modern tech, all that info could be processed faster then the animation of the swing or time it takes to animate the casting of a spell.
Which was the whole advantage of computer games, they could be vastly complex, they could provide 100 integers and 1,000 die rolls in a fraction of a second, to bring that dynamic, complex combat mechanic that was made simplified by table top rules for the sake of brevity and quickness of encounters, to vivid life.
I mean lets be honest, you could have set up a spread sheet, for each character that was designed to be built off a few dice rolls, and worked into a bunch of other trait numbers, and have them just dump 5d20's on the table, for each attack, you punch in the numbers, roll your own 5d20 for the mobs counter (or just have that get randomly generated by a push of a button on the spreadheet), and it would display a really dynamic encounter, of how much a hit was made, how much a block was done, how much a dodge was done by the opponent, and a slew of other factors, and made the attacks down to a matter of seconds, with more time spent explaining them, then rolling on them.
Personally with me, when I played D&D, we just rolled everything, To Hit/Damage, roll all the dice at once, and be done with it. It was a time kill to be like
"Ok roll to hit" "Miss" "Anything else?" "Ok.. Next" or "Ok Roll to Hit" "That's a hit, roll damage" "Ok, that's X damage, anything else?" "Ok.. Next"
Nahh.. "Roll that D20 and your 3d6 for the sword, you doing anything else this round? a 5 foot move, need to roll a d20 for a Acrobatics check on that too, call the color of the attack dice, red, got it" (They Roll 2d20 and 3d6) (I roll a d20 and 3d4) "Alright, well you missed, and he laughs your attempt, but you did 7 damage to the air, and it seems wiffed at you, you tried to take a 5 foot step, but your acrobatics roll was not good enough and he smashes you across the face with his falchion for 5 points of damage as an attack of opportunity at your blundering.. next"
But, anyway, that is exactly what an MMO is, someone setting up the program to make that happen, and when you press attack, all those rolls get made, and the result calculated.
So why do they keep making that as simple as if they had to be sitting at the table and making all the rolls themselves?
Anyway, the ideas were simplified complex concepts, Case in point, GG talked about how they needed to make these complex ideas into simple thing, like for example, HP, was not your health as most people look at it today, it was designed to express a lot of background calculations.
As explained, HP included things like being able to roll with the blow, being able to side step a hit, or use your armor to lessen the strike, case in point, what would have been a straight on direct hit at level 1, only glances your shoulder at level 5, and your increase HP are a way to present that change in combat, not that you somehow magically got more life in you, like they pumped you up with more blood or something.
The thing is, an MMO, or Computer Game could run the calculations of being able to roll with blows, or deflect things, and run all those various calculations in the background, so that it does not depend on some rudimentary system as HP, to cover all that.
But they don't.
Now, why they don't could be discussed, like, for example, they don't do it, because it's just easier for everyone to use HP, from the Devs to the Players, and they roll that.
They could make it complex, but.. eh.. fuck that. simple is good.
But is it good, or is just an easy out that players will consume, because they understand it.
I personally think it's just a matter of it being easy, as opposed to it being any good, This is why we end up discussions about balance and things like that, because making things too simple, too basic, combining a lot of things that should be their own thing into one amalgamated mess, is not really good design, and oftentimes makes things so that they get warped to crap later, and can't be balanced well, because the systems that would make them balanced in a realistic way, simply do not exist in that game platform.
Thus putting the Dev team in a place where they need to now import a system to fix their lack of having a system to address the problem, which means they then need to change all things associated with that problems, or just deal with a shitty system that can't be fixed in it's current state.
And DDO is a great example of this. As the levels went up, AC became a failed system, because it was an All or Nothing on the Hit, and as they went up, it became harder and harder to build tanks based on AC, and this was a case where either the Tank hit the AC needed, or they were going to get demolished, this gave rise to what was called Pajama Tanks, who used the Dodge Ability, to avoided damage as armor was simply worthless unless it made that apex number, but dodge offered an advantage no matter what, as you could have a 10% dodge, and you would flat out avoid 10% of the hits no matter what, where with AC, if you didn't at least break the Bosses BAB, you might as well be naked, and with a lot of raid bosses, hell even trash mobs, it took very exacting focus to break their BAB, so overall, Armor became a 'for show' item.
Needless to say this pissed off a lot of fighters and heavy armor players, So, SSG went to fix this, and their solution was to put in a house rule, to accommodate that the over simplification system of AC was simply not viable at end game, and they added in something called PRR, aka: Physical Resistance Rating. For all intents, it was basically a damage reduction system, with each armor type having it's own ranks, and of course some armors and items offering their additional boons to this stat.
This of course had the wonderful effect of invalidating a lot of old, and sometimes, hard to get raid armors, because they were not updated to the new system, beyond being "Armor Type"
This is why, trying to minimize things, while may work great for the table top, and that small setting, where if things need to change to adjust to the situation as it evolves, they can change on the fly, with a decent GM at the helm, to make things fair and balanced.. right on the spot.
That does not work for an MMO, and we both know it.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Just as a side note, in many games now, archers/guns don't use resources, which I agree with, completely unfair and trivial to play. Only used for realism which is a joke, because guns would 1 shot melee all day in real life, so realism is out the window.
A Space marine would like to have a word with you about how inefficient a normal handgun is against their armor.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Just as a side note, in many games now, archers/guns don't use resources, which I agree with, completely unfair and trivial to play. Only used for realism which is a joke, because guns would 1 shot melee all day in real life, so realism is out the window.
A Space marine would like to have a word with you about how inefficient a normal handgun is against their armor.
Space Marines = realism to you? Tell you what, when that space marine with super armor is able to call me on the phone, sure I will talk with them. Until then I am going with guns can 1 shot melee units all day long. I will be waiting for that call.
By the time they invent full body armor to stop some guns, there will be other guns that can go right through that.
I am not saying to put this in games. Games are designed to be fun and fantasy, realism will only take you so far or it gets real boring real fast. I think all classes should be viable and balanced.
Sounds like you got a little to immersed in a melee fantasy, lets not confuse reality thou.
Some of my D&D group wanted more "realistic" combat. We tried some suggestions we read Dragon Magazine and made some tweaks. What we were looking for was "hit location" type of combat. That quickly spiraled into a summer of extraordinarily long fights. Roll to hit, roll location, roll damage, adjust for location percentage (legs/arms/body/head), and figure out "disfigurement", if any. We gave up after that summer
The simplified combat had become quite enjoyable after that experiment
See this is the thing.
What gets me about a lot of modern MMO's is they could build for that more dynamic, more realistic combat, where you have each limb having it's own HP totals, armor, and things like that, and each attack is made at a limb, and all this super cool shit..
But they don't, they keep the game as simplistic as it would be if you were trying to run this at the table top.
and that is really where the crying shame happens in all this.
They could make amazing dynamic games, with all kinds of cool features like that, and they don't.
Very true. The computer can handle the difficulties (and the math) to increase the complexity in modeling the human body and combat. Instead, they appear to be stuck in a simplistic mindset. "D&D did it this way, so we must too". Sadly very few have really attempted to do something different. Nobody has even added next level concepts like throws, knockdowns, and holds. (Or aim high, aim low).
Computers have enough power that their ability to do complex modeling is irrelevant. The question player's ability to notice info from the screen, do decision based on that, coordinate those decisions with the rest of the group, and control their characters actions.
The average computer has enough power. What *may* be lacking is a way to display the information to the player, and the player to make decisions on that information. Some could be automatic, like a leg going limp and the character can't walk the same or falling down or even being knocked out. The information could also be shared with the group in an automatic way, like having the injured character cry out "My leg".
The actual presentation of an injury would depend greatly on the actual way that damage is represented in the game. Hit points is both a representation *and* the presentation level, useful only for simplistic models of the human body. That is a major holdover from D&D, and no one has really challenged it.
The worst thing is that a HP based system is predictable. If an opponents rusty axe does 2d6 damage per hit, and you have 30 HPs remaining, you know it will take your opponent at least 3 hits to kill you. Ask a doctor how many times someone could hit you with a rusty axe -- if they say "let's find out", find a new doctor.
Unpredictability is a major part of combat. Never being entirely sure puts uncertainty into a game.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Some of my D&D group wanted more "realistic" combat. We tried some suggestions we read Dragon Magazine and made some tweaks. What we were looking for was "hit location" type of combat. That quickly spiraled into a summer of extraordinarily long fights. Roll to hit, roll location, roll damage, adjust for location percentage (legs/arms/body/head), and figure out "disfigurement", if any. We gave up after that summer
The simplified combat had become quite enjoyable after that experiment
See this is the thing.
What gets me about a lot of modern MMO's is they could build for that more dynamic, more realistic combat, where you have each limb having it's own HP totals, armor, and things like that, and each attack is made at a limb, and all this super cool shit..
But they don't, they keep the game as simplistic as it would be if you were trying to run this at the table top.
and that is really where the crying shame happens in all this.
They could make amazing dynamic games, with all kinds of cool features like that, and they don't.
Very true. The computer can handle the difficulties (and the math) to increase the complexity in modeling the human body and combat. Instead, they appear to be stuck in a simplistic mindset. "D&D did it this way, so we must too". Sadly very few have really attempted to do something different. Nobody has even added next level concepts like throws, knockdowns, and holds. (Or aim high, aim low).
Computers have enough power that their ability to do complex modeling is irrelevant. The question player's ability to notice info from the screen, do decision based on that, coordinate those decisions with the rest of the group, and control their characters actions.
The average computer has enough power. What *may* be lacking is a way to display the information to the player, and the player to make decisions on that information. Some could be automatic, like a leg going limp and the character can't walk the same or falling down or even being knocked out. The information could also be shared with the group in an automatic way, like having the injured character cry out "My leg".
The actual presentation of an injury would depend greatly on the actual way that damage is represented in the game. Hit points is both a representation *and* the presentation level, useful only for simplistic models of the human body. That is a major holdover from D&D, and no one has really challenged it.
The worst thing is that a HP based system is predictable. If an opponents rusty axe does 2d6 damage per hit, and you have 30 HPs remaining, you know it will take your opponent at least 3 hits to kill you. Ask a doctor how many times someone could hit you with a rusty axe -- if they say "let's find out", find a new doctor.
Unpredictability is a major part of combat. Never being entirely sure puts uncertainty into a game.
No, predictability is the best part. Games are intentionally created so that players can win them by acting correctly, instead of a more random system where the game would occasionally kill you.
Just as a side note, in many games now, archers/guns don't use resources, which I agree with, completely unfair and trivial to play. Only used for realism which is a joke, because guns would 1 shot melee all day in real life, so realism is out the window.
A Space marine would like to have a word with you about how inefficient a normal handgun is against their armor.
Space Marines = realism to you?
Casting spells is real to you?
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
I haven't really given a solid opinion in this thread yet, but I did discuss it with someone today and my thoughts were:
Without mana requirements, most spellcasting classes in MMOs and video games would just be flashy archers. I know, oversimplification, but still valid.
As for ttrpgs, getting rid of mana or spell requirements, even with careful balancing, would easily make spellcasters overpowered. Never forget that in D&D, the most overpowered thing is creativity. There are only so many creative ways to kick down a door, but with magic!
All in all, save the mana bar I sat, even at the cost of a mage just dumping OP spells on you. Without it, we might as well just make the Trinity the classes themselves, and they just ask how we want the damage to look like.
Some of my D&D group wanted more "realistic" combat. We tried some suggestions we read Dragon Magazine and made some tweaks. What we were looking for was "hit location" type of combat. That quickly spiraled into a summer of extraordinarily long fights. Roll to hit, roll location, roll damage, adjust for location percentage (legs/arms/body/head), and figure out "disfigurement", if any. We gave up after that summer
The simplified combat had become quite enjoyable after that experiment
See this is the thing.
What gets me about a lot of modern MMO's is they could build for that more dynamic, more realistic combat, where you have each limb having it's own HP totals, armor, and things like that, and each attack is made at a limb, and all this super cool shit..
But they don't, they keep the game as simplistic as it would be if you were trying to run this at the table top.
and that is really where the crying shame happens in all this.
They could make amazing dynamic games, with all kinds of cool features like that, and they don't.
Very true. The computer can handle the difficulties (and the math) to increase the complexity in modeling the human body and combat. Instead, they appear to be stuck in a simplistic mindset. "D&D did it this way, so we must too". Sadly very few have really attempted to do something different. Nobody has even added next level concepts like throws, knockdowns, and holds. (Or aim high, aim low).
Computers have enough power that their ability to do complex modeling is irrelevant. The question player's ability to notice info from the screen, do decision based on that, coordinate those decisions with the rest of the group, and control their characters actions.
What if.. There was no info.
You were just given non-numbered data, like in real life.
As opposed to HP, it was just a basic graphical rundown of your health showing injuries, like cuts about the arm, scratches to the face, a broken leg, bleeding from the side, etc, etc, as opposed to a numbered HP bar.
As opposed to a simple yellow stamina bar, you get a heart rate and lung icon showing how your body feels in those two ways, with it beating faster, or nice a slow, to show if you are becoming exhausted.
What if as opposed to Mana Bar, you had an aura about your character, that would get stronger or weaker, the more magical ability you had open to you.
But you were not given numbers, like real life, you just need to take a guess, and hope for the best on that conflict.
Would that be a cool ass game to you, or are you the kind of person that needs to see the numbers?
I think overall, as we ponder that question, perhaps that is why games are made the way they are, not more in depth or realistic.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Some of my D&D group wanted more "realistic" combat. We tried some suggestions we read Dragon Magazine and made some tweaks. What we were looking for was "hit location" type of combat. That quickly spiraled into a summer of extraordinarily long fights. Roll to hit, roll location, roll damage, adjust for location percentage (legs/arms/body/head), and figure out "disfigurement", if any. We gave up after that summer
The simplified combat had become quite enjoyable after that experiment
See this is the thing.
What gets me about a lot of modern MMO's is they could build for that more dynamic, more realistic combat, where you have each limb having it's own HP totals, armor, and things like that, and each attack is made at a limb, and all this super cool shit..
But they don't, they keep the game as simplistic as it would be if you were trying to run this at the table top.
and that is really where the crying shame happens in all this.
They could make amazing dynamic games, with all kinds of cool features like that, and they don't.
Very true. The computer can handle the difficulties (and the math) to increase the complexity in modeling the human body and combat. Instead, they appear to be stuck in a simplistic mindset. "D&D did it this way, so we must too". Sadly very few have really attempted to do something different. Nobody has even added next level concepts like throws, knockdowns, and holds. (Or aim high, aim low).
Computers have enough power that their ability to do complex modeling is irrelevant. The question player's ability to notice info from the screen, do decision based on that, coordinate those decisions with the rest of the group, and control their characters actions.
What if.. There was no info.
You were just given non-numbered data, like in real life.
As opposed to HP, it was just a basic graphical rundown of your health showing injuries, like cuts about the arm, scratches to the face, a broken leg, bleeding from the side, etc, etc, as opposed to a numbered HP bar.
As opposed to a simple yellow stamina bar, you get a heart rate and lung icon showing how your body feels in those two ways, with it beating faster, or nice a slow, to show if you are becoming exhausted.
What if as opposed to Mana Bar, you had an aura about your character, that would get stronger or weaker, the more magical ability you had open to you.
But you were not given numbers, like real life, you just need to take a guess, and hope for the best on that conflict.
Would that be a cool ass game to you, or are you the kind of person that needs to see the numbers?
I think overall, as we ponder that question, perhaps that is why games are made the way they are, not more in depth or realistic.
If the aim is to not give accurate info, that can be done simply by replacing the HP/MP bar with something that turns from green to yellow to red depending on how much HP/MP you've got left.
Some of my D&D group wanted more "realistic" combat. We tried some suggestions we read Dragon Magazine and made some tweaks. What we were looking for was "hit location" type of combat. That quickly spiraled into a summer of extraordinarily long fights. Roll to hit, roll location, roll damage, adjust for location percentage (legs/arms/body/head), and figure out "disfigurement", if any. We gave up after that summer
The simplified combat had become quite enjoyable after that experiment
See this is the thing.
What gets me about a lot of modern MMO's is they could build for that more dynamic, more realistic combat, where you have each limb having it's own HP totals, armor, and things like that, and each attack is made at a limb, and all this super cool shit..
But they don't, they keep the game as simplistic as it would be if you were trying to run this at the table top.
and that is really where the crying shame happens in all this.
They could make amazing dynamic games, with all kinds of cool features like that, and they don't.
Very true. The computer can handle the difficulties (and the math) to increase the complexity in modeling the human body and combat. Instead, they appear to be stuck in a simplistic mindset. "D&D did it this way, so we must too". Sadly very few have really attempted to do something different. Nobody has even added next level concepts like throws, knockdowns, and holds. (Or aim high, aim low).
Computers have enough power that their ability to do complex modeling is irrelevant. The question player's ability to notice info from the screen, do decision based on that, coordinate those decisions with the rest of the group, and control their characters actions.
What if.. There was no info.
You were just given non-numbered data, like in real life.
As opposed to HP, it was just a basic graphical rundown of your health showing injuries, like cuts about the arm, scratches to the face, a broken leg, bleeding from the side, etc, etc, as opposed to a numbered HP bar.
As opposed to a simple yellow stamina bar, you get a heart rate and lung icon showing how your body feels in those two ways, with it beating faster, or nice a slow, to show if you are becoming exhausted.
What if as opposed to Mana Bar, you had an aura about your character, that would get stronger or weaker, the more magical ability you had open to you.
But you were not given numbers, like real life, you just need to take a guess, and hope for the best on that conflict.
Would that be a cool ass game to you, or are you the kind of person that needs to see the numbers?
I think overall, as we ponder that question, perhaps that is why games are made the way they are, not more in depth or realistic.
If the aim is to not give accurate info, that can be done simply by replacing the HP/MP bar with something that turns from green to yellow to red depending on how much HP/MP you've got left.
The aim is to give you viable realistic info that you can use to judge your health in a immersive manner, as opposed to something so totally non sequitur to life and abstract as a number.
The fact that you think not giving you a number is not giving you accurate info, I have to ask, when was the last time you got a number regarding how many hits you can take?
I mean for me, it was, a few years ago, when I was at the gym, I sparred with a guy half my age, and half my body fat percentage while still in the same weight category, and the answer was I have 6 HP, as that is how many times they hit me, before I went down.
So how many HP you pumping?
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Just as a side note, in many games now, archers/guns don't use resources, which I agree with, completely unfair and trivial to play. Only used for realism which is a joke, because guns would 1 shot melee all day in real life, so realism is out the window.
A Space marine would like to have a word with you about how inefficient a normal handgun is against their armor.
Space Marines = realism to you?
Casting spells is real to you?
No which is why I said guns can 1 shot melee. Which is my point, these are fantasy games, so melee being able to kill ranged targets, or spells or anything else is not real. So mages running out of mana how is that real.
All of these ideas of mages being heavy nukers or limited spells or low mana is all based on D&D rules. They are out of time and limiting to players today.
You were just given non-numbered data, like in real life.
As opposed to HP, it was just a basic graphical rundown of your health showing injuries, like cuts about the arm, scratches to the face, a broken leg, bleeding from the side, etc, etc, as opposed to a numbered HP bar.
As opposed to a simple yellow stamina bar, you get a heart rate and lung icon showing how your body feels in those two ways, with it beating faster, or nice a slow, to show if you are becoming exhausted.
What if as opposed to Mana Bar, you had an aura about your character, that would get stronger or weaker, the more magical ability you had open to you.
But you were not given numbers, like real life, you just need to take a guess, and hope for the best on that conflict.
Would that be a cool ass game to you, or are you the kind of person that needs to see the numbers?
I think overall, as we ponder that question, perhaps that is why games are made the way they are, not more in depth or realistic.
I like the idea of the icons, will make things way more immersive doing that.
For most MMOs targeting individual limbs would not be cool, it would just be too unwieldy for players to control their hit location targets in real time.
Is it really much different from AoC's left up, left down, center, right up, right down, combat strikes? Just change that to left arm, left leg, body, right arm, right leg. Done.
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For most MMOs targeting individual limbs would not be cool, it would just be too unwieldy for players to control their hit location targets in real time.
Is it really much different from AoC's left up, left down, center, right up, right down, combat strikes? Just change that to left arm, left leg, body, right arm, right leg. Done.
Worked fine for my guy with a double handed sword.
For most MMOs targeting individual limbs would not be cool, it would just be too unwieldy for players to control their hit location targets in real time.
Is it really much different from AoC's left up, left down, center, right up, right down, combat strikes? Just change that to left arm, left leg, body, right arm, right leg. Done.
Wait, would that be the players left arm, or the targets left arm, if duel wielding could they use their left arm to hit the targets right arm? Oh, what if target has 4 arms, 2 legs, could I pick which arm to hit?
Never played Ashes of Creation, maybe they have this all figured out.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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For most MMOs targeting individual limbs would not be cool, it would just be too unwieldy for players to control their hit location targets in real time.
Is it really much different from AoC's left up, left down, center, right up, right down, combat strikes? Just change that to left arm, left leg, body, right arm, right leg. Done.
Wait, would that be the players left arm, or the targets left arm, if duel wielding could they use their left arm to hit the targets right arm? Oh, what if target has 4 arms, 2 legs, could I pick which arm to hit?
Never played Ashes of Creation, maybe they have this all figured out.
Age of Conan.
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Comments
What gets me about a lot of modern MMO's is they could build for that more dynamic, more realistic combat, where you have each limb having it's own HP totals, armor, and things like that, and each attack is made at a limb, and all this super cool shit..
But they don't, they keep the game as simplistic as it would be if you were trying to run this at the table top.
and that is really where the crying shame happens in all this.
They could make amazing dynamic games, with all kinds of cool features like that, and they don't.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Yeah, I'm lazy like that....so sue me.
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"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
And today, with MMO's it feels like we dumbed the whole system down, and not for the better.
I mean, casting was levels of coolness in Dragonrealms. Regions had their own mana supply, divided by Arcane, Holy, and Life. So if you were in a jungle you would have more Life Mana in the region, being near holy places or places of divine events would have more holy power, and Arcane fluxed, like a river throughout the game world, so at one time a area could be high in arcane energy and another time low.
So players would need to first perceive the power in the area they were in, and then once they had that, they could prep a spell. While you didn't need to know the power in a area to prep a spell, it helped to know how much you could prep.
and of course the higher your ability to perceive the mana, the more you could find, so at starting ranks, everything felt empty, as you went up, you noticed some areas had more than others, as you got higher and higher, you could see a great variance in how much power was around you, as well as see more power in each room, so in a room that was at one time perhaps no noticeable mana, after many ranks gained, you could go in and find traces of it, maybe not much, but enough to cast some spells, and then later, you can find more, and be able to cast even more spells in an area that at one time you could not cast any.
I loved that aspect.
Then you would prep a spell, and pick how much mana you wanted to pull from the region, say 1 mana, or 10 mana, or whatever, you typed this in. And depending on your ability to perceive the mana and your ability to harness it, and how much was there, would determine if you could pull that much mana from the area to power your spell.
Then you would wait till the spell was ready, and finally cast it at a target. Your harness and spell casting ranks would determine how long it took you to ready the spell, and your concentration would determine if you could hold that spell while getting hit or otherwise distracted.
In this case, you could be in combat, fighting with weapons while also casting spells.
Once cast, how well it worked would depend on your direct spell casting skill, like your Life Magic Casting Ranks, and Magical Targeting Ranks, etc.
This us was not some simple "You have 10K Spell Points to Blow the Shit out of stuff, go have fun!"
And to be honest, I really wish they would make an MMO with that level of dynamic to things like casting.
Combat was not any less involved. You had various kinds of attacks, you also had Stamina, Balance, Overall Weapon Skill, Exact Weapon Skill. This means that you had a base skill rank of how well you could just fight in general, and a skill rank based on that direct weapon style. You could use direct targeted attacks, like aiming for the head, but this would reduce your hitbox, and make it harder for you to land a blow there, but if you hit, it did more damage, and could insta-kill.
Armor, which you could vary, meaning you could have a heavy helm and leather arms, and depending on where you got hit, would depend on what armor skill you used to deflect or brushoff the blow. You had an overall dodge skill, and then you had armor ranks in each armor you were wearing.
And all this, balance, stamina, skills, would combine into each hit you made, and each time you were attacked.
Modern MMO's with tons more power, more tools, more stuff to work with, come across as rudimentary children's games in contrast to that.
And this was stuff we were playing 28 years ago, on dial-up, on computers that have less power than your phone today.
We could be making so much better ..but we don't.. not because we can't.. we just don't.
Not to say simple is better but it really does depends on the audience, what one wants to accomplish with such a system, etc.
As I've mentioned before, I completely stripped down the dungeons and dragons rules for my campaign as I noticed that playing was incredibly dull. Everything would stop for too many dice rolls. It was as if we invested in our time in tedium instead of an exciting swashbuckling adventure.
But again, that depends on the audience. I know of tabletop games that apparently have turns that take an incredibly long time.
My thought is that any system has to support the idea of "is it fun?"
Does all of it contribute to an enjoyable time?
If not then it doesn't work.
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Ok so I fixed your post to apply to melee and highlighted the difference. Notice there is no difference other than Over Powered spells and attack at range for casters. That's it! So as I stated to balance the OP IWIN spells they are killing mana usage instead. Remove the OP spells give them other tools then remove the mana and let them play the class. Solved!
Just as a side note, in many games now, archers/guns don't use resources, which I agree with, completely unfair and trivial to play. Only used for realism which is a joke, because guns would 1 shot melee all day in real life, so realism is out the window.
Entire point of these games is to have fun, not messing with your inventory with resource management for casters and archers.
Which was the whole advantage of computer games, they could be vastly complex, they could provide 100 integers and 1,000 die rolls in a fraction of a second, to bring that dynamic, complex combat mechanic that was made simplified by table top rules for the sake of brevity and quickness of encounters, to vivid life.
I mean lets be honest, you could have set up a spread sheet, for each character that was designed to be built off a few dice rolls, and worked into a bunch of other trait numbers, and have them just dump 5d20's on the table, for each attack, you punch in the numbers, roll your own 5d20 for the mobs counter (or just have that get randomly generated by a push of a button on the spreadheet), and it would display a really dynamic encounter, of how much a hit was made, how much a block was done, how much a dodge was done by the opponent, and a slew of other factors, and made the attacks down to a matter of seconds, with more time spent explaining them, then rolling on them.
Personally with me, when I played D&D, we just rolled everything, To Hit/Damage, roll all the dice at once, and be done with it. It was a time kill to be like
"Ok roll to hit"
"Miss"
"Anything else?"
"Ok.. Next"
or
"Ok Roll to Hit"
"That's a hit, roll damage"
"Ok, that's X damage, anything else?"
"Ok.. Next"
Nahh.. "Roll that D20 and your 3d6 for the sword, you doing anything else this round? a 5 foot move, need to roll a d20 for a Acrobatics check on that too, call the color of the attack dice, red, got it"
(They Roll 2d20 and 3d6)
(I roll a d20 and 3d4)
"Alright, well you missed, and he laughs your attempt, but you did 7 damage to the air, and it seems wiffed at you, you tried to take a 5 foot step, but your acrobatics roll was not good enough and he smashes you across the face with his falchion for 5 points of damage as an attack of opportunity at your blundering.. next"
But, anyway, that is exactly what an MMO is, someone setting up the program to make that happen, and when you press attack, all those rolls get made, and the result calculated.
So why do they keep making that as simple as if they had to be sitting at the table and making all the rolls themselves?
Anyway, the ideas were simplified complex concepts, Case in point, GG talked about how they needed to make these complex ideas into simple thing, like for example, HP, was not your health as most people look at it today, it was designed to express a lot of background calculations.
As explained, HP included things like being able to roll with the blow, being able to side step a hit, or use your armor to lessen the strike, case in point, what would have been a straight on direct hit at level 1, only glances your shoulder at level 5, and your increase HP are a way to present that change in combat, not that you somehow magically got more life in you, like they pumped you up with more blood or something.
The thing is, an MMO, or Computer Game could run the calculations of being able to roll with blows, or deflect things, and run all those various calculations in the background, so that it does not depend on some rudimentary system as HP, to cover all that.
But they don't.
Now, why they don't could be discussed, like, for example, they don't do it, because it's just easier for everyone to use HP, from the Devs to the Players, and they roll that.
They could make it complex, but.. eh.. fuck that. simple is good.
But is it good, or is just an easy out that players will consume, because they understand it.
I personally think it's just a matter of it being easy, as opposed to it being any good, This is why we end up discussions about balance and things like that, because making things too simple, too basic, combining a lot of things that should be their own thing into one amalgamated mess, is not really good design, and oftentimes makes things so that they get warped to crap later, and can't be balanced well, because the systems that would make them balanced in a realistic way, simply do not exist in that game platform.
Thus putting the Dev team in a place where they need to now import a system to fix their lack of having a system to address the problem, which means they then need to change all things associated with that problems, or just deal with a shitty system that can't be fixed in it's current state.
And DDO is a great example of this. As the levels went up, AC became a failed system, because it was an All or Nothing on the Hit, and as they went up, it became harder and harder to build tanks based on AC, and this was a case where either the Tank hit the AC needed, or they were going to get demolished, this gave rise to what was called Pajama Tanks, who used the Dodge Ability, to avoided damage as armor was simply worthless unless it made that apex number, but dodge offered an advantage no matter what, as you could have a 10% dodge, and you would flat out avoid 10% of the hits no matter what, where with AC, if you didn't at least break the Bosses BAB, you might as well be naked, and with a lot of raid bosses, hell even trash mobs, it took very exacting focus to break their BAB, so overall, Armor became a 'for show' item.
Needless to say this pissed off a lot of fighters and heavy armor players, So, SSG went to fix this, and their solution was to put in a house rule, to accommodate that the over simplification system of AC was simply not viable at end game, and they added in something called PRR, aka: Physical Resistance Rating. For all intents, it was basically a damage reduction system, with each armor type having it's own ranks, and of course some armors and items offering their additional boons to this stat.
This of course had the wonderful effect of invalidating a lot of old, and sometimes, hard to get raid armors, because they were not updated to the new system, beyond being "Armor Type"
This is why, trying to minimize things, while may work great for the table top, and that small setting, where if things need to change to adjust to the situation as it evolves, they can change on the fly, with a decent GM at the helm, to make things fair and balanced.. right on the spot.
That does not work for an MMO, and we both know it.
By the time they invent full body armor to stop some guns, there will be other guns that can go right through that.
I am not saying to put this in games. Games are designed to be fun and fantasy, realism will only take you so far or it gets real boring real fast. I think all classes should be viable and balanced.
Sounds like you got a little to immersed in a melee fantasy, lets not confuse reality thou.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Without mana requirements, most spellcasting classes in MMOs and video games would just be flashy archers. I know, oversimplification, but still valid.
As for ttrpgs, getting rid of mana or spell requirements, even with careful balancing, would easily make spellcasters overpowered. Never forget that in D&D, the most overpowered thing is creativity. There are only so many creative ways to kick down a door, but with magic!
All in all, save the mana bar I sat, even at the cost of a mage just dumping OP spells on you. Without it, we might as well just make the Trinity the classes themselves, and they just ask how we want the damage to look like.
You were just given non-numbered data, like in real life.
As opposed to HP, it was just a basic graphical rundown of your health showing injuries, like cuts about the arm, scratches to the face, a broken leg, bleeding from the side, etc, etc, as opposed to a numbered HP bar.
As opposed to a simple yellow stamina bar, you get a heart rate and lung icon showing how your body feels in those two ways, with it beating faster, or nice a slow, to show if you are becoming exhausted.
What if as opposed to Mana Bar, you had an aura about your character, that would get stronger or weaker, the more magical ability you had open to you.
But you were not given numbers, like real life, you just need to take a guess, and hope for the best on that conflict.
Would that be a cool ass game to you, or are you the kind of person that needs to see the numbers?
I think overall, as we ponder that question, perhaps that is why games are made the way they are, not more in depth or realistic.
The fact that you think not giving you a number is not giving you accurate info, I have to ask, when was the last time you got a number regarding how many hits you can take?
I mean for me, it was, a few years ago, when I was at the gym, I sparred with a guy half my age, and half my body fat percentage while still in the same weight category, and the answer was I have 6 HP, as that is how many times they hit me, before I went down.
So how many HP you pumping?
All of these ideas of mages being heavy nukers or limited spells or low mana is all based on D&D rules. They are out of time and limiting to players today.
I like the idea of the icons, will make things way more immersive doing that.
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
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Never played Ashes of Creation, maybe they have this all figured out.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon