Ultimately, horizontal progression reduces (or even removes) the specialization between the classes. To me, that cripples the purpose of having 'classes' within a role playing game. It enables, encourages, and facilitates every character into doing everything.
Here there is a confusion between horizontal progression and the ability to freely respec.
Moreover, horizontal progression and free respec can exist within the limits of a given class. Sorry to insist, but GW1 was an horizontal progression game. And IMO, it was made the right way. You had free respec (within your classes) and no you could not do everything as efficiently as the dedicated class.
I mean at the time the WaMo (= Warrior Monk) was a meme . With a pitiful mana bar some warriors were trying helplessly to use monk's spells to act as healers, and other players would laugh at them.
horizontal and vertical has nothing to do with other aspects of the game such as classes and roles and all horizontal systems in mmo's have some vertical progression built in to them. Its more accurate to call it a hybrid system since it has elements of horizontal and vertical progression. Eso is an example of a hybrid system. Wow or lost ark are examples of vertical systems.
it a typical level grinder you simply kill things or do quests to advance your "level" which unlocks your skills and general power. This linear pathway invalidates everything that come before it aka the treadmill or carrot on a stick. It exploits people basic desires and I consider it to be unhealthy. There is usually very little flexibility in equipment strategy.
in a hybrid model you might have to find those skills and power those up some way. The main feature of the hybrid system is a more subtle power curve and relies more on player ingenuity and player skill than linear power systems. Games like this are all about making effective "builds", a combination of skills and equipment choices.
consider the vertical model to be mcdonalds while the hybrid model is a steak dinner. Eventually you will tire from eating junk food and will require some real food.
Some games you level your Class to get the skills that define your Role..
Some games you level your Skills to build a Class that defines your role ..
In the end , it's the same thing
Yeah, and a lot of those games even have presets, with names. Not EVE Online though. I can't think of anything better than that.
Constantine, The Console Poster
"One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others may despise it, is the invention of good games and it cannot be done by men out of touch with their instinctive selves." - Carl Jung
Some games you level your Class to get the skills that define your Role..
Some games you level your Skills to build a Class that defines your role ..
In the end , it's the same thing
Yeah, and a lot of those games even have presets, with names. Not EVE Online though. I can't think of anything better than that.
Eve does that now also .. Preset paths for builds Name/Skills/Gear everything ..
But it's always been there, they have made it easier to navigate the thru for a new player is all
Yeah what I meant is it isn't just like the class system but with the hidden names. Those are as you said it a navigation guide, not a build like other games. That's not definitive neither. But still I believe there is actual freedom in how you build up in a meaningful, functional, and effective way.
For instance The Secret World offered that ability wheel. But if you wanted to tank, you had to stick to an exact precise build, a certain build had the highest dps or heal output. So while there was a bit of freedom, or maybe the illusion of it, in the end those options would only make you weaker. And I might choose weakness for cosmetic or style purposes for a while. But in the end, it is all about the power in an RPG, especially when there are literal checkpoints in the game that you need to pass to be able to access the rest of the content. Also if you don't pay attention to the correct builds, you are making the life of your peers harder, even barring them from enjoying the game.
At least, none of that is a problem in EVE.
Constantine, The Console Poster
"One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others may despise it, is the invention of good games and it cannot be done by men out of touch with their instinctive selves." - Carl Jung
Some games you level your Class to get the skills that define your Role..
Some games you level your Skills to build a Class that defines your role ..
In the end , it's the same thing
Yeah, and a lot of those games even have presets, with names. Not EVE Online though. I can't think of anything better than that.
Eve does that now also .. Preset paths for builds Name/Skills/Gear everything ..
But it's always been there, they have made it easier to navigate the thru for a new player is all
Yeah what I meant is it isn't just like the class system but with the hidden names. Those are as you said it a navigation guide, not a build like other games. That's not definitive neither. But still I believe there is actual freedom in how you build up in a meaningful, functional, and effective way.
For instance The Secret World offered that ability wheel. But if you wanted to tank, you had to stick to an exact precise build, a certain build had the highest dps or heal output. So while there was a bit of freedom, or maybe the illusion of it, in the end those options would only make you weaker. And I might choose weakness for cosmetic or style purposes for a while. But in the end, it is all about the power in an RPG, especially when there are literal checkpoints in the game that you need to pass to be able to access the rest of the content. Also if you don't pay attention to the correct builds, you are making the life of your peers harder, even barring them from enjoying the game.
At least, none of that is a problem in EVE.
Oh no, I disagree about EVE, fly a shit fit and you'll be a detriment to your fleet, subject to scorn and derision should you end up a killboard somewhere.
Most fleets have required ship fittings according to their doctrine and woe to any pilot who dares deviate w/o permission.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Some games you level your Class to get the skills that define your Role..
Some games you level your Skills to build a Class that defines your role ..
In the end , it's the same thing
Yeah, and a lot of those games even have presets, with names. Not EVE Online though. I can't think of anything better than that.
Eve does that now also .. Preset paths for builds Name/Skills/Gear everything ..
But it's always been there, they have made it easier to navigate the thru for a new player is all
Yeah what I meant is it isn't just like the class system but with the hidden names. Those are as you said it a navigation guide, not a build like other games. That's not definitive neither. But still I believe there is actual freedom in how you build up in a meaningful, functional, and effective way.
For instance The Secret World offered that ability wheel. But if you wanted to tank, you had to stick to an exact precise build, a certain build had the highest dps or heal output. So while there was a bit of freedom, or maybe the illusion of it, in the end those options would only make you weaker. And I might choose weakness for cosmetic or style purposes for a while. But in the end, it is all about the power in an RPG, especially when there are literal checkpoints in the game that you need to pass to be able to access the rest of the content. Also if you don't pay attention to the correct builds, you are making the life of your peers harder, even barring them from enjoying the game.
At least, none of that is a problem in EVE.
Oh no, I disagree about EVE, fly a shit fit and you'll be a detriment to your fleet, subject to scorn and derision should you end up a killboard somewhere.
Most fleets have required ship fittings according to their doctrine and woe to any pilot who dares deviate w/o permission.
Yes but there is a variety of optimum fittings for a variety of stuff. While in other MMORPGs you have one optimum build, and at best one for PvE and one for PvP.
Constantine, The Console Poster
"One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others may despise it, is the invention of good games and it cannot be done by men out of touch with their instinctive selves." - Carl Jung
Seems like most people i meet just want a max level character that has nothing left to work for...just hand them everything and that is what they want.....
Some games you level your Class to get the skills that define your Role..
Some games you level your Skills to build a Class that defines your role ..
In the end , it's the same thing
Yeah, and a lot of those games even have presets, with names. Not EVE Online though. I can't think of anything better than that.
Eve does that now also .. Preset paths for builds Name/Skills/Gear everything ..
But it's always been there, they have made it easier to navigate the thru for a new player is all
Yeah what I meant is it isn't just like the class system but with the hidden names. Those are as you said it a navigation guide, not a build like other games. That's not definitive neither. But still I believe there is actual freedom in how you build up in a meaningful, functional, and effective way.
For instance The Secret World offered that ability wheel. But if you wanted to tank, you had to stick to an exact precise build, a certain build had the highest dps or heal output. So while there was a bit of freedom, or maybe the illusion of it, in the end those options would only make you weaker. And I might choose weakness for cosmetic or style purposes for a while. But in the end, it is all about the power in an RPG, especially when there are literal checkpoints in the game that you need to pass to be able to access the rest of the content. Also if you don't pay attention to the correct builds, you are making the life of your peers harder, even barring them from enjoying the game.
At least, none of that is a problem in EVE.
Oh no, I disagree about EVE, fly a shit fit and you'll be a detriment to your fleet, subject to scorn and derision should you end up a killboard somewhere.
Most fleets have required ship fittings according to their doctrine and woe to any pilot who dares deviate w/o permission.
Yes but there is a variety of optimum fittings for a variety of stuff. While in other MMORPGs you have one optimum build, and at best one for PvE and one for PvP.
Not been my experience recently, ESO has multiple builds to strive for, which change with every release, both in PVP and PVE.
Most recently Magika Dragon Knights were the new FOMO, with some players reaching insane levels of trials damage, say 150K vs the normal 90K or so max.
PVP has multiple builds as well, depending on whether players solo, want to be bombers, employ very specific group synergies or what not.
EVE I can't really say, been over 5 years since I've played, not really sure what the game is like anymore.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Some games you level your Class to get the skills that define your Role..
Some games you level your Skills to build a Class that defines your role ..
In the end , it's the same thing
Yeah, and a lot of those games even have presets, with names. Not EVE Online though. I can't think of anything better than that.
Eve does that now also .. Preset paths for builds Name/Skills/Gear everything ..
But it's always been there, they have made it easier to navigate the thru for a new player is all
Yeah what I meant is it isn't just like the class system but with the hidden names. Those are as you said it a navigation guide, not a build like other games. That's not definitive neither. But still I believe there is actual freedom in how you build up in a meaningful, functional, and effective way.
For instance The Secret World offered that ability wheel. But if you wanted to tank, you had to stick to an exact precise build, a certain build had the highest dps or heal output. So while there was a bit of freedom, or maybe the illusion of it, in the end those options would only make you weaker. And I might choose weakness for cosmetic or style purposes for a while. But in the end, it is all about the power in an RPG, especially when there are literal checkpoints in the game that you need to pass to be able to access the rest of the content. Also if you don't pay attention to the correct builds, you are making the life of your peers harder, even barring them from enjoying the game.
At least, none of that is a problem in EVE.
Oh no, I disagree about EVE, fly a shit fit and you'll be a detriment to your fleet, subject to scorn and derision should you end up a killboard somewhere.
Most fleets have required ship fittings according to their doctrine and woe to any pilot who dares deviate w/o permission.
Yes but there is a variety of optimum fittings for a variety of stuff. While in other MMORPGs you have one optimum build, and at best one for PvE and one for PvP.
Not been my experience recently, ESO has multiple builds to strive for, which change with every release, both in PVP and PVE.
Most recently Magika Dragon Knights were the new FOMO, with some players reaching insane levels of trials damage, say 150K vs the normal 90K or so max.
PVP has multiple builds as well, depending on whether players solo, want to be bombers, employ very specific group synergies or what not.
EVE I can't really say, been over 5 years since I've played, not really sure what the game is like anymore.
I think we quit about the same time. But I believe we played EVE very differently.
I'm not saying there is a lack of builds in other games. But most, if not all, of these builds would only weaken you to an obvious point and would bar you from progression.
Constantine, The Console Poster
"One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others may despise it, is the invention of good games and it cannot be done by men out of touch with their instinctive selves." - Carl Jung
Seems like most people i meet just want a max level character that has nothing left to work for...just hand them everything and that is what they want.....
Not sure why there is always someone who says this. It just show IMO there is a lack of understanding. This is equivalent to saying you can make no progression in real life because you can't level up and become untouchable to level 1 peon.
The type of progression has no bearing on how long or much progression there is or difficulty. You could level 1-100 in 10 easy quest and it could be vertical progression. You could have 1 million Dark Soul quest to fully flesh out your character and have 0 levels.
Seems like most people i meet just want a max level character that has nothing left to work for...just hand them everything and that is what they want.....
Not sure why there is always someone who says this. It just show IMO there is a lack of understanding. This is equivalent to saying you can make no progression in real life because you can't level up and become untouchable to level 1 peon.
The type of progression has no bearing on how long or much progression there is or difficulty. You could level 1-100 in 10 easy quest and it could be vertical progression. You could have 1 million Dark Soul quest to fully flesh out your character and have 0 levels.
There is no lack of understanding. The bottom line is real progression in MMORPGs. In a horizontal system, you are improving your skills. If doing so only allows you to kill things .1 seconds faster or minimally improves your gaming experience, there is no point. The hidden reality behind all of this is that the majority of horizontal progression people are really the ones that want to be untouchable. They want everything handed to them the first time they log into the game. They want to be able to instantly compete with people who have been playing for months and years. Most don't want classes either, they want to be able to do everything, at anytime for free. Again, there are hundreds of games that provide this type of experience, why must you water down and twist the genre into what suits you?
There is no lack of understanding. The bottom line is real progression in MMORPGs. In a horizontal system, you are improving your skills. If doing so only allows you to kill things .1 seconds faster or minimally improves your gaming experience, there is no point. The hidden reality behind all of this is that the majority of horizontal progression people are really the ones that want to be untouchable. They want everything handed to them the first time they log into the game. They want to be able to instantly compete with people who have been playing for months and years. Most don't want classes either, they want to be able to do everything, at anytime for free. Again, there are hundreds of games that provide this type of experience, why must you water down and twist the genre into what suits you?
So many things wrong with this! So many faulty assumptions!
If you are improving your skills of your character, that is vertical progression
The people who want to be untouchable are the ones who prefer vertical progression. Those who want horizontal progression want everyone to have roughly the same power. Thats the opposite of untouchable!
We do not want everything handed to us as soon as log into the game. That would mean there is no character progression.
We do not want to be instantly competitive with people that have been playing for years. Such a thing would only be possible with the most basic of gameplay systems that can be mastered in 10 seconds. We do want to be roughly the same level of power so that we can join in from day 1, but we still expect there to be plenty of progression that unlocks new specialities that allow us to participate in more content, as well as developing our own player skill over time.
I've not seen anyone who wants horizontal progression who also wants no classes (though im sure they do exist). Combat roles are a pretty fundamental part of roleplaying games, especially in mmorpgs. the whole point of horizontal progression is to make it easier to play with other people, and combat roles are a pretty fundamental part of what makes teaming up fun and useful.
There are hundreds of games offering the experience you talk about? Name one MMORPG that does so. Failing that, name a single RPG that does so. I can't think of any. The only genre I can think of that has embraced horizontal progression is the online shooter genre, they have long realised that if you want people to play together, there needs to be an even playing field.
Currently Playing: WAR RoR - Spitt rr7X Black Orc | Scrotling rr6X Squig Herder | Scabrous rr4X Shaman
There is no lack of understanding. The bottom line is real progression in MMORPGs. In a horizontal system, you are improving your skills. If doing so only allows you to kill things .1 seconds faster or minimally improves your gaming experience, there is no point. The hidden reality behind all of this is that the majority of horizontal progression people are really the ones that want to be untouchable. They want everything handed to them the first time they log into the game. They want to be able to instantly compete with people who have been playing for months and years. Most don't want classes either, they want to be able to do everything, at anytime for free. Again, there are hundreds of games that provide this type of experience, why must you water down and twist the genre into what suits you?
So many things wrong with this! So many faulty assumptions!
If you are improving your skills of your character, that is vertical progression
The people who want to be untouchable are the ones who prefer vertical progression. Those who want horizontal progression want everyone to have roughly the same power. Thats the opposite of untouchable!
We do not want everything handed to us as soon as log into the game. That would mean there is no character progression.
We do not want to be instantly competitive with people that have been playing for years. Such a thing would only be possible with the most basic of gameplay systems that can be mastered in 10 seconds. We do want to be roughly the same level of power so that we can join in from day 1, but we still expect there to be plenty of progression that unlocks new specialities that allow us to participate in more content, as well as developing our own player skill over time.
I've not seen anyone who wants horizontal progression who also wants no classes (though im sure they do exist). Combat roles are a pretty fundamental part of roleplaying games, especially in mmorpgs. the whole point of horizontal progression is to make it easier to play with other people, and combat roles are a pretty fundamental part of what makes teaming up fun and useful.
There are hundreds of games offering the experience you talk about? Name one MMORPG that does so. Failing that, name a single RPG that does so. I can't think of any. The only genre I can think of that has embraced horizontal progression is the online shooter genre, they have long realised that if you want people to play together, there needs to be an even playing field.
You label my statements as faulty assumptions but your second paragraph (sentence) shows that you don't understand the most common version of horizontal progression.
You go on to say "We do not want to be instantly competitive with people that have been playing for years" then flip flop and say "We do want to be roughly the same level of power so that we can join in from day 1, but we still expect there to be plenty of progression that unlocks new specialties that allow us to participate in more content, as well as developing our own player skill over time." Those are conflicting statements. Furthermore, by suggesting "new specialties that allow us to participate in more content" you are confirming that there is a progression gap, which is the same thing you all complain about with vertical progression.
Again, if you want that experience, try any FPS, melee action game, sports game, RTS, BR, arena, etc. They all give that experience. You suggest you and others want horizontal progression so its easier to play with others. Well, if the horizontal progression is even remotely meaningful, that isn't going to happen. I think you need to concentrate on the word progression and what it means in terms of RPG character development. You want to learn a new way to swing your sword but it doesn't do any more damage or give you any benefit? Your character cannot progress if it doesnt get stronger or if it doesnt learn new skills that materially alter how you play. By default, such progression creates a gap between you and others. Are there ways to alleviate this gap? Sure, but they exist for vertical progression as well.
As I stated before, I have no issue with horizontal progression as long as it's meaningful and again, by default, that creates a gap. No gap, no progression. If you want to grind sideways to unlock animations, skins, etc., have at it, but I dont think that design fits into MMORPGS.
"There are hundreds of games offering the experience you talk about? Name one MMORPG that does so. " That's the whole point, why must MMORPGs offer that experience when nearly every . . . other . . . single . . . genre already provides it?
Seems like most people i meet just want a max level character that has nothing left to work for...just hand them everything and that is what they want.....
Not sure why there is always someone who says this. It just show IMO there is a lack of understanding. This is equivalent to saying you can make no progression in real life because you can't level up and become untouchable to level 1 peon.
The type of progression has no bearing on how long or much progression there is or difficulty. You could level 1-100 in 10 easy quest and it could be vertical progression. You could have 1 million Dark Soul quest to fully flesh out your character and have 0 levels.
There is no lack of understanding. The bottom line is real progression in MMORPGs. In a horizontal system, you are improving your skills. If doing so only allows you to kill things .1 seconds faster or minimally improves your gaming experience, there is no point. The hidden reality behind all of this is that the majority of horizontal progression people are really the ones that want to be untouchable. They want everything handed to them the first time they log into the game. They want to be able to instantly compete with people who have been playing for months and years. Most don't want classes either, they want to be able to do everything, at anytime for free. Again, there are hundreds of games that provide this type of experience, why must you water down and twist the genre into what suits you?
Lol, RPGs are based on numbers so giving vast generalized statements is part of the lack of understanding. Numbers can be tweaked however you want. Even in most vertical progression games the real progression is done horizontally end game. This is because the vertical progression part of the game is largely trivial.
People who want horizontal progression all have varying ideas. The general purpose is to keep power gaps in check and keep the game world more realistic.
You don't have 75 level wizard with no melee training being able to out melee a level 50 warrior. You don't have a world ending threat 2 expansion later weaker than rat roaming around the new world.
Again, the "I understand!" and then your reasoning again show you don't understand. Same roundabout discussion over a decade old.
Depending on the design you could be just expanding your character in gain new abilities or you could be doing WoW end game level of power gains. Trying to argue specifics like that is pointless.
Horizontal progression is just progression done on one level or power platform. A newbie character missing abilities and gear isn't likely be doing end game dungeons. Anymore than new 100 level character going to be able to do the hardest dungeons ene game.
The hidden reality behind all of this is that the majority of horizontal progression people are really the ones that want to be untouchable. They want everything handed to them the first time they log into the game. They want to be able to instantly compete with people who have been playing for months and years. Most don't want classes either, they want to be able to do everything, at anytime for free. Again, there are hundreds of games that provide this type of experience, why must you water down and twist the genre into what suits you?
I would argue the opposite:
The true hidden reality is that horizontal progression hides a vertical one, which is the player skill.
The majority of vertical progression people are the ONES that want to be untouchable through no-lifing or cash-shop-warrioring. In vertical progression games sush as BDO, the time and the money you spent in the game really defines your power. And the power gap is real allowing you to one-combo-shot other player while being virtually untouchable.
(I have to add that BDO to be P2W needs $1000s but some people do spend these amounts. Most accounts are not P2W for this reason)
If I would be mean and stupidly exaggerating I would say that vertical progression people are complaining about the horizontal progression because they have no skill but time and/or money ! LOL
I enjoy both systems. Sometimes I want a grinding game(such as BDO) , sometimes i want a skill-based game (such as Naraka). Sometimes I want the combination of both (Elden Ring).
Now why some people want horizontal progression in their MMO while they could play FPS, MOBA, BR and so on that offer a more horizontal progression?
Well accessibility has been mentioned. And I think that seeing a lot of players on an equal foot in a massive setting could be an interesting experiment closer to the real world.
There is no lack of understanding. The bottom line is real progression in MMORPGs. In a horizontal system, you are improving your skills. If doing so only allows you to kill things .1 seconds faster or minimally improves your gaming experience, there is no point. The hidden reality behind all of this is that the majority of horizontal progression people are really the ones that want to be untouchable. They want everything handed to them the first time they log into the game. They want to be able to instantly compete with people who have been playing for months and years. Most don't want classes either, they want to be able to do everything, at anytime for free. Again, there are hundreds of games that provide this type of experience, why must you water down and twist the genre into what suits you?
So many things wrong with this! So many faulty assumptions!
If you are improving your skills of your character, that is vertical progression
The people who want to be untouchable are the ones who prefer vertical progression. Those who want horizontal progression want everyone to have roughly the same power. Thats the opposite of untouchable!
We do not want everything handed to us as soon as log into the game. That would mean there is no character progression.
We do not want to be instantly competitive with people that have been playing for years. Such a thing would only be possible with the most basic of gameplay systems that can be mastered in 10 seconds. We do want to be roughly the same level of power so that we can join in from day 1, but we still expect there to be plenty of progression that unlocks new specialities that allow us to participate in more content, as well as developing our own player skill over time.
I've not seen anyone who wants horizontal progression who also wants no classes (though im sure they do exist). Combat roles are a pretty fundamental part of roleplaying games, especially in mmorpgs. the whole point of horizontal progression is to make it easier to play with other people, and combat roles are a pretty fundamental part of what makes teaming up fun and useful.
There are hundreds of games offering the experience you talk about? Name one MMORPG that does so. Failing that, name a single RPG that does so. I can't think of any. The only genre I can think of that has embraced horizontal progression is the online shooter genre, they have long realised that if you want people to play together, there needs to be an even playing field.
You go on to say "We do not want to be instantly competitive with people that have been playing for years" then flip flop and say "We do want to be roughly the same level of power so that we can join in from day 1, but we still expect there to be plenty of progression that unlocks new specialties that allow us to participate in more content, as well as developing our own player skill over time." Those are conflicting statements. Furthermore, by suggesting "new specialties that allow us to participate in more content" you are confirming that there is a progression gap, which is the same thing you all complain about with vertical progression.
Vertical progression is, fundementally, about addition.
You get your base stats AND level 2 stats / skills AND level 3 stats / skills. Each bit of progression is added to what you already had before, making you more powerful.
Horizontal progression is, fundamentally, about choice.
You get your base stats OR level 2 stuff OR level 3 stuff OR level 4 stuff. You can't use it all at once, so you have to make a choice. You get better at some stuff (like burst dps) whilst balancing out by getting worse at other stuff (like aoe dps). By making it a choice, rather than an addition, you maintain power levels across the game.
As for the progression gap, of course there is one. Unlocking new specialities will allow you to do more things. That is a good thing as it helps make the progression meaningful. But, just because there is meaningful progression, doesn't mean that vets and newbies can't play together.
For example, imagine you are a newbie melee dps class and all you can do is single target dps. That is a useful role for all group content, meaning you can join in from day 1. however, if there is a dungeon or raid that requires a lot of aoe dps, that newbie is going to be less effective. You wouldn't want to do that dungeon with only newbies, you'd fail, but if you could bring a mix of vets (who have unlocked and chosen aoe specs) and newbies (who only do single target) then you can be successful.
I hope that makes it clearer.
Currently Playing: WAR RoR - Spitt rr7X Black Orc | Scrotling rr6X Squig Herder | Scabrous rr4X Shaman
The hidden reality behind all of this is that the majority of horizontal progression people are really the ones that want to be untouchable. They want everything handed to them the first time they log into the game. They want to be able to instantly compete with people who have been playing for months and years. Most don't want classes either, they want to be able to do everything, at anytime for free. Again, there are hundreds of games that provide this type of experience, why must you water down and twist the genre into what suits you?
I would argue the opposite:
The true hidden reality is that horizontal progression hides a vertical one, which is the player skill.
The majority of vertical progression people are the ONES that want to be untouchable through no-lifing or cash-shop-warrioring. In vertical progression games sush as BDO, the time and the money you spent in the game really defines your power. And the power gap is real allowing you to one-combo-shot other player while being virtually untouchable.
(I have to add that BDO to be P2W needs $1000s but some people do spend these amounts. Most accounts are not P2W for this reason)
If I would be mean and stupidly exaggerating I would say that vertical progression people are complaining about the horizontal progression because they have no skill but time and/or money ! LOL
I enjoy both systems. Sometimes I want a grinding game(such as BDO) , sometimes i want a skill-based game (such as Naraka). Sometimes I want the combination of both (Elden Ring).
Now why some people want horizontal progression in their MMO while they could play FPS, MOBA, BR and so on that offer a more horizontal progression?
Well accessibility has been mentioned. And I think that seeing a lot of players on an equal foot in a massive setting could be an interesting experiment closer to the real world.
Why not? You are free to not play.
Adding the p2w variable muddies the water and of course is going to be biased against vertical progression. I thought we were talking about advancement systems in their natural state, not bastardizations brought about p2w and the instant gratification generations. I can certainly agree that if by skill you mean motor actions/reactions, a properly structured horizontal system SHOULD require more skill, and thus the advanced players would generally be more skilled. But discussing skill in a true MMORP is a bumpy road full of potholes and doesn't really scale to skill in other genres.
Again, I'm perfectly fine with clamping down with power gaps whether it be vertical or horizontal. What I am not fine with is the proposition that continues to be regurgitated here that horizontal progression, in and of itself, magically fixes power gaps and accessibility. If you want meaningful, rewarding progression, there are going to be power gaps. You want people on an equal footing in a MMO? Go for it, there are tons of games that already do that. I'm talking about MMORPGs and that is an occasion where I don't want your peanut butter in my chocolate.
There is no lack of understanding. The bottom line is real progression in MMORPGs. In a horizontal system, you are improving your skills. If doing so only allows you to kill things .1 seconds faster or minimally improves your gaming experience, there is no point. The hidden reality behind all of this is that the majority of horizontal progression people are really the ones that want to be untouchable. They want everything handed to them the first time they log into the game. They want to be able to instantly compete with people who have been playing for months and years. Most don't want classes either, they want to be able to do everything, at anytime for free. Again, there are hundreds of games that provide this type of experience, why must you water down and twist the genre into what suits you?
So many things wrong with this! So many faulty assumptions!
If you are improving your skills of your character, that is vertical progression
The people who want to be untouchable are the ones who prefer vertical progression. Those who want horizontal progression want everyone to have roughly the same power. Thats the opposite of untouchable!
We do not want everything handed to us as soon as log into the game. That would mean there is no character progression.
We do not want to be instantly competitive with people that have been playing for years. Such a thing would only be possible with the most basic of gameplay systems that can be mastered in 10 seconds. We do want to be roughly the same level of power so that we can join in from day 1, but we still expect there to be plenty of progression that unlocks new specialities that allow us to participate in more content, as well as developing our own player skill over time.
I've not seen anyone who wants horizontal progression who also wants no classes (though im sure they do exist). Combat roles are a pretty fundamental part of roleplaying games, especially in mmorpgs. the whole point of horizontal progression is to make it easier to play with other people, and combat roles are a pretty fundamental part of what makes teaming up fun and useful.
There are hundreds of games offering the experience you talk about? Name one MMORPG that does so. Failing that, name a single RPG that does so. I can't think of any. The only genre I can think of that has embraced horizontal progression is the online shooter genre, they have long realised that if you want people to play together, there needs to be an even playing field.
You go on to say "We do not want to be instantly competitive with people that have been playing for years" then flip flop and say "We do want to be roughly the same level of power so that we can join in from day 1, but we still expect there to be plenty of progression that unlocks new specialties that allow us to participate in more content, as well as developing our own player skill over time." Those are conflicting statements. Furthermore, by suggesting "new specialties that allow us to participate in more content" you are confirming that there is a progression gap, which is the same thing you all complain about with vertical progression.
Vertical progression is, fundementally, about addition.
You get your base stats AND level 2 stats / skills AND level 3 stats / skills. Each bit of progression is added to what you already had before, making you more powerful.
Horizontal progression is, fundamentally, about choice.
You get your base stats OR level 2 stuff OR level 3 stuff OR level 4 stuff. You can't use it all at once, so you have to make a choice. You get better at some stuff (like burst dps) whilst balancing out by getting worse at other stuff (like aoe dps). By making it a choice, rather than an addition, you maintain power levels across the game.
As for the progression gap, of course there is one. Unlocking new specialities will allow you to do more things. That is a good thing as it helps make the progression meaningful. But, just because there is meaningful progression, doesn't mean that vets and newbies can't play together.
For example, imagine you are a newbie melee dps class and all you can do is single target dps. That is a useful role for all group content, meaning you can join in from day 1. however, if there is a dungeon or raid that requires a lot of aoe dps, that newbie is going to be less effective. You wouldn't want to do that dungeon with only newbies, you'd fail, but if you could bring a mix of vets (who have unlocked and chosen aoe specs) and newbies (who only do single target) then you can be successful.
I hope that makes it clearer.
"You get your base stats OR level 2 stuff OR level 3 stuff OR level 4 stuff. You can't use it all at once, so you have to make a choice. You get better at some stuff (like burst dps) whilst balancing out by getting worse at other stuff (like aoe dps). By making it a choice, rather than an addition, you maintain power levels across the game.
As for the progression gap, of course there is one. Unlocking new specialities will allow you to do more things. That is a good thing as it helps make the progression meaningful. But, just because there is meaningful progression, doesn't mean that vets and newbies can't play together."
This is a very interesting concept. What about skills based on crafting things, economic stuff? Let's take an Alchemist, as one example. If they make more powerful potions, and give up what? And gear producers, making better gear, what do they give up? Or are they basically refining their range of skills, better at some aspects of what they produce, but giving up others? (I'm thinking of Potions that heal one stat, or cure one stat affecting poison, etc.; or weapons that have a keener edge but wear out quicker...as a reference to my questions.
Vertical progression is, fundementally, about addition.
You get your base stats AND level 2 stats / skills AND level 3 stats / skills. Each bit of progression is added to what you already had before, making you more powerful.
Horizontal progression is, fundamentally, about choice.
You get your base stats OR level 2 stuff OR level 3 stuff OR level 4 stuff. You can't use it all at once, so you have to make a choice. You get better at some stuff (like burst dps) whilst balancing out by getting worse at other stuff (like aoe dps). By making it a choice, rather than an addition, you maintain power levels across the game.
As for the progression gap, of course there is one. Unlocking new specialities will allow you to do more things. That is a good thing as it helps make the progression meaningful. But, just because there is meaningful progression, doesn't mean that vets and newbies can't play together.
For example, imagine you are a newbie melee dps class and all you can do is single target dps. That is a useful role for all group content, meaning you can join in from day 1. however, if there is a dungeon or raid that requires a lot of aoe dps, that newbie is going to be less effective. You wouldn't want to do that dungeon with only newbies, you'd fail, but if you could bring a mix of vets (who have unlocked and chosen aoe specs) and newbies (who only do single target) then you can be successful.
I hope that makes it clearer.
"You get your base stats OR level 2 stuff OR level 3 stuff OR level 4 stuff. You can't use it all at once, so you have to make a choice. You get better at some stuff (like burst dps) whilst balancing out by getting worse at other stuff (like aoe dps). By making it a choice, rather than an addition, you maintain power levels across the game.
As for the progression gap, of course there is one. Unlocking new specialities will allow you to do more things. That is a good thing as it helps make the progression meaningful. But, just because there is meaningful progression, doesn't mean that vets and newbies can't play together."
This is a very interesting concept. What about skills based on crafting things, economic stuff? Let's take an Alchemist, as one example. If they make more powerful potions, and give up what? And gear producers, making better gear, what do they give up? Or are they basically refining their range of skills, better at some aspects of what they produce, but giving up others? (I'm thinking of Potions that heal one stat, or cure one stat affecting poison, etc.; or weapons that have a keener edge but wear out quicker...as a reference to my questions.
Good questions!
I guess the core of your question revolves around the concept of crafting "better gear". In a horizontal system, that term should simply be "different gear". Better mitigation balanced against lower mobility. Better damage balanced against slower speed etc etc.
The "master crafter" would have access to all the different permutations the game provides, but the stuff they craft for players would remain balanced.
Please note, though, that whenever I talk about horizontal progression, I am purely talking about horizontal character progression with respects to character power. My goal is to remove barriers between players to make it easier to play together, and to stop content becoming redundant as soon as you've done it once.
Economic power is a different thing to character power, and so I don't really care about verticality in this respect. If you have a million gold, and I only have 1 gold, we can still play together without that gap causing problems. Additionally, external sources of power like wealth or property can be traded - e.g. you could give me 10 gold to repair my gear if i was short - which means if those gaps cause problems, they are easier to overcome than inate character power.
Currently Playing: WAR RoR - Spitt rr7X Black Orc | Scrotling rr6X Squig Herder | Scabrous rr4X Shaman
Horizontal Progression Games are a fools errand, no one is going to want to play a game for years, only to be no better off than someone that just started yesterday.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Horizontal Progression Games are a fools errand, no one is going to want to play a game for years, only to be no better off than someone that just started yesterday.
Horizontal Progression Games are a fools errand, no one is going to want to play a game for years, only to be no better off than someone that just started yesterday.
Guild Wars 2....
GW2 is not horizontal, last time I looked it directly has levels 1 - 80, just saying.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Comments
Some games you level your Skills to build a Class that defines your role ..
In the end , it's the same thing
it a typical level grinder you simply kill things or do quests to advance your "level" which unlocks your skills and general power. This linear pathway invalidates everything that come before it aka the treadmill or carrot on a stick. It exploits people basic desires and I consider it to be unhealthy. There is usually very little flexibility in equipment strategy.
in a hybrid model you might have to find those skills and power those up some way. The main feature of the hybrid system is a more subtle power curve and relies more on player ingenuity and player skill than linear power systems. Games like this are all about making effective "builds", a combination of skills and equipment choices.
consider the vertical model to be mcdonalds while the hybrid model is a steak dinner. Eventually you will tire from eating junk food and will require some real food.
But it's always been there, they have made it easier to navigate the thru for a new player is all
For instance The Secret World offered that ability wheel. But if you wanted to tank, you had to stick to an exact precise build, a certain build had the highest dps or heal output. So while there was a bit of freedom, or maybe the illusion of it, in the end those options would only make you weaker. And I might choose weakness for cosmetic or style purposes for a while. But in the end, it is all about the power in an RPG, especially when there are literal checkpoints in the game that you need to pass to be able to access the rest of the content. Also if you don't pay attention to the correct builds, you are making the life of your peers harder, even barring them from enjoying the game.
At least, none of that is a problem in EVE.
Most fleets have required ship fittings according to their doctrine and woe to any pilot who dares deviate w/o permission.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Most recently Magika Dragon Knights were the new FOMO, with some players reaching insane levels of trials damage, say 150K vs the normal 90K or so max.
PVP has multiple builds as well, depending on whether players solo, want to be bombers, employ very specific group synergies or what not.
EVE I can't really say, been over 5 years since I've played, not really sure what the game is like anymore.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I'm not saying there is a lack of builds in other games. But most, if not all, of these builds would only weaken you to an obvious point and would bar you from progression.
The type of progression has no bearing on how long or much progression there is or difficulty. You could level 1-100 in 10 easy quest and it could be vertical progression. You could have 1 million Dark Soul quest to fully flesh out your character and have 0 levels.
You go on to say "We do not want to be instantly competitive with people that have been playing for years" then flip flop and say "We do want to be roughly the same level of power so that we can join in from day 1, but we still expect there to be plenty of progression that unlocks new specialties that allow us to participate in more content, as well as developing our own player skill over time." Those are conflicting statements. Furthermore, by suggesting "new specialties that allow us to participate in more content" you are confirming that there is a progression gap, which is the same thing you all complain about with vertical progression.
Again, if you want that experience, try any FPS, melee action game, sports game, RTS, BR, arena, etc. They all give that experience. You suggest you and others want horizontal progression so its easier to play with others. Well, if the horizontal progression is even remotely meaningful, that isn't going to happen. I think you need to concentrate on the word progression and what it means in terms of RPG character development. You want to learn a new way to swing your sword but it doesn't do any more damage or give you any benefit? Your character cannot progress if it doesnt get stronger or if it doesnt learn new skills that materially alter how you play. By default, such progression creates a gap between you and others. Are there ways to alleviate this gap? Sure, but they exist for vertical progression as well.
As I stated before, I have no issue with horizontal progression as long as it's meaningful and again, by default, that creates a gap. No gap, no progression. If you want to grind sideways to unlock animations, skins, etc., have at it, but I dont think that design fits into MMORPGS.
"There are hundreds of games offering the experience you talk about? Name one MMORPG that does so. " That's the whole point, why must MMORPGs offer that experience when nearly every . . . other . . . single . . . genre already provides it?
People who want horizontal progression all have varying ideas. The general purpose is to keep power gaps in check and keep the game world more realistic.
You don't have 75 level wizard with no melee training being able to out melee a level 50 warrior. You don't have a world ending threat 2 expansion later weaker than rat roaming around the new world.
Again, the "I understand!" and then your reasoning again show you don't understand. Same roundabout discussion over a decade old.
Depending on the design you could be just expanding your character in gain new abilities or you could be doing WoW end game level of power gains. Trying to argue specifics like that is pointless.
Horizontal progression is just progression done on one level or power platform. A newbie character missing abilities and gear isn't likely be doing end game dungeons. Anymore than new 100 level character going to be able to do the hardest dungeons ene game.
Again, I'm perfectly fine with clamping down with power gaps whether it be vertical or horizontal. What I am not fine with is the proposition that continues to be regurgitated here that horizontal progression, in and of itself, magically fixes power gaps and accessibility. If you want meaningful, rewarding progression, there are going to be power gaps. You want people on an equal footing in a MMO? Go for it, there are tons of games that already do that. I'm talking about MMORPGs and that is an occasion where I don't want your peanut butter in my chocolate.
This is a very interesting concept.
What about skills based on crafting things, economic stuff?
Let's take an Alchemist, as one example. If they make more powerful potions, and give up what?
And gear producers, making better gear, what do they give up?
Or are they basically refining their range of skills, better at some aspects of what they produce, but giving up others?
(I'm thinking of Potions that heal one stat, or cure one stat affecting poison, etc.; or weapons that have a keener edge but wear out quicker...as a reference to my questions.
Once upon a time....
Philosophy of MMO Game Design