"Meanwhile as soon as you commit a severe crime (PK or lawfull npc
killing) a mission is generated to all the players in the server that
pays a nice sum for your bounty."
This was tried befroe in the past...it fails miserably...Why?...Because players would get the bounty then have another of their accounts or friends go claim the bounty...It doesn't work.
Fundamentally, a bounty attracts people to the criminal. Which gives the criminal exactly what they are looking for -- another fight. That's essentially rewarding the bad behavior.
That may be fine (I'm not for that), but what is the opposite? How does the game reward the law abiding players?
You could have special powers granted by the gods (or some super computer or whatever) that are earned through play, but criminals can't use. Have theirs "turned off", so to speak. But with multiple Character slots, and loot worth taking, you'll never stop those players from running at least one criminal.
I'll say this, you all "can't handle the truth!" I've said it repeatedly over the years and no one seems to believe it. You need to have real, in-game punishment for the criminal Characters. Punish the Character with lost stats and ability (levels or skills) so that they can never be as powerful as the good guys, as long as they are doing whatever it is (usually PKing). I'm not about to write out the details again. Done too many times and ignored.
They will just kill newbs, where their levels can still easily win. They want to do this either way, most of the time its not even about money its about ruining someone's day. So they can dance on their grave.
You see, you don't know what my system was. It handled that. In short, the PKers would just be digging themselves deeper into "skill loss" penalty until they become newbies all over again.
But honestly, I've given up on wide open PvP. Too many problems between players.
Important: I also talked about this in Ashes of Creation.... Once a game has world PvP it looses flavor of being anything else.....Think about that !
EVE has explorers, traders, diplomats, industrialists, mission and incursion runners, miners etc.
Yet what do people "only talk about" ? Unfairness, getting ganked, being a newb and not being strong enough...... Never about what you mentioned.
Important: Again, Once a game is full loot PvP, it looses it's flavor of being anything else.
Nope. Last few articles were about mining. People talking about how to maximize profit from incursions/anomic missions/L4 blitzes. Articles with monthly economic reports for industrialists. Etc.
I still strongly disagree, Peoples first reaction, or first thought about this game is full loot PvP. Still what your talking about comes way later.
Deep down you know this and I don't blame you for sticking up for your game, so no hard feelings
"Meanwhile as soon as you commit a severe crime (PK or lawfull npc
killing) a mission is generated to all the players in the server that
pays a nice sum for your bounty."
This was tried befroe in the past...it fails miserably...Why?...Because players would get the bounty then have another of their accounts or friends go claim the bounty...It doesn't work.
Fundamentally, a bounty attracts people to the criminal. Which gives the criminal exactly what they are looking for -- another fight. That's essentially rewarding the bad behavior.
That may be fine (I'm not for that), but what is the opposite? How does the game reward the law abiding players?
I would say let the PVE player be able to to randomly obtain a buff while PVEing, that lasts a reasonable amount of time. The buff is invisible to others. This buff will activate when attacked by a player and will automatically call down guards that will defend and easily kill the perpetrator. The person who attacked will be lootable.
Buff only works if you are attacked first.
Yeah I would love to hear the risk vs reward argument from these griefers for this mechanic.
PVE'ers have risk because they have to PVE without this buff to get the buff. Griefers have risk, because they don't know when they attack whether or not the person is being guarded. So everyone has a chance for reward, and equivalent risk.
So as a griefer, when you see that lonely miner, ask yourself is it going to be worth it.
Interesting idea, but it doesn't encourage the PvP player from joining the PvE player. A buff only as a mild deterrent to the PvP activity. If this invisible buff is powerful enough, there is a danger that a PvP player could look at obtaining this buff as a 'prerequisite' for starting their PvP.
The nature of PvP is that the PvP player determines when, where, and who will join them. It's a very one-sided dynamic. Where's the same game play that forces the PvE (or RP) game play on another player? How does the PvE player make the PvP player stop what they are doing and help them mine?
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
I still like how PoTBS did PvP. There is no open world PvP, but players can attack ports and put them in the "red zone". A red circle around the port is an open PvP area while it is under attack.
Nobody *has* to go into the zone and nobody is forced to do PvP. But, if you are an economic player and have mines, factories, etc, in that port, you want to go there to craft, mine, etc. So you try to streak into port avoiding the gank fleets waiting around it.
If you are in a port when it is attacked, you can't get out without going through the PvP zone. Of course, you can avoid PvP if you just stay in port.
I still like how PoTBS did PvP. There is no open world PvP, but players can attack ports and put them in the "red zone". A red circle around the port is an open PvP area while it is under attack.
Nobody *has* to go into the zone and nobody is forced to do PvP. But, if you are an economic player and have mines, factories, etc, in that port, you want to go there to craft, mine, etc. So you try to streak into port avoiding the gank fleets waiting around it.
If you are in a port when it is attacked, you can't get out without going through the PvP zone. Of course, you can avoid PvP if you just stay in port.
Good lord I forgot about PoTBS. I agree their PvP mechanic being unique and a novel solution. I remember running into a PVP flipped port trying to sneak supplies out and getting jumped by a rival faction and losing my cargo. Was upset for a second but then reminded myself no one forced me to try to smuggle supplies out of a pvp area and when you gamble you take the risks. Was an enjoyable gane for a bit but many bugs and repetitive gameplay is why I stopped if memory serves.
I still like how PoTBS did PvP. There is no open world PvP, but players can attack ports and put them in the "red zone". A red circle around the port is an open PvP area while it is under attack.
Nobody *has* to go into the zone and nobody is forced to do PvP. But, if you are an economic player and have mines, factories, etc, in that port, you want to go there to craft, mine, etc. So you try to streak into port avoiding the gank fleets waiting around it.
If you are in a port when it is attacked, you can't get out without going through the PvP zone. Of course, you can avoid PvP if you just stay in port.
Good lord I forgot about PoTBS. I agree their PvP mechanic being unique and a novel solution. I remember running into a PVP flipped port trying to sneak supplies out and getting jumped by a rival faction and losing my cargo. Was upset for a second but then reminded myself no one forced me to try to smuggle supplies out of a pvp area and when you gamble you take the risks. Was an enjoyable gane for a bit but many bugs and repetitive gameplay is why I stopped if memory serves.
How did they handle groups of players flagging ports and just camping them to prevent newbies from being able to leave or enter?
If I remember correctly, most people just avoided the PvP contested area until either the contesting faction collected enough points to trigger a port fight in which the winning side got to keep/take control of the port and PvP status went away or the port owners turned enough points in doing quests and whatnot so the contested status wad removed. Also I believe if you were jumped by an enemy in a contested area you could ask for help and anyone seeing the request could jump in and help you. What also helped was that ships had durability points and after sunk a few times that was it, no more ships. Considering it how insanely expensive and grindy it was to create recipes for high end ships, most people wouldn't risk their best shios on some random newbie just to have a group of their mates jump in and sink you. Come to think of it, was a pretty good system.
I think when a player goes PK a random number of lives should be assigned to the character and once those run out the player is permanently dead. The number of remaining lives is hidden from the player.
Good system. I go one further: Make it so you can't see anyone elses level, items, skill points, zip. That way you have no idea how power the person you are going to attack is. Might help with the ganking of newbs.
I think when a player goes PK a random number of lives should be
assigned to the character and once those run out the player is
permanently dead. The number of remaining lives is hidden from the
player.
This sounds like a recipe for getting people to quit your game.
Couldnt make this up if I tried to ... (that you would post exactly these two things in sequence).
The problem with full loot PvP is that your gear cannot be actually valueable.
That means your game cannot have the sword that takes a month or two to farm.
Or the armor piece you raided for since two years and finally managed to get your grubby hands on.
If you have BOTH full loot PvP and hard to get items, people WILL leave the game, and reasonably so, after losing these insanely hard to get items within a minute a /ragequit is perfectly reasonable.
Thus all you can have in a full loot pvp game is some secondary resource of some sort, like a bank account (within the virtual world, not in reallife), that allows you to quickly get equally good new gear once you lost the old gear.
I guess this really shows again that different people like different kinds of games.
It is selecting an audience from the perspective of the game maker. Whether the selection made is problematic depends on the perspective of the potential player.
Then the problem is the player not recognizing the game is simply not meant for them, not the selection. The player was never a potential player in the first place and their perspective is irrelevant.
"Silence of the Lambs is a problematic movie. It is too scary for me."
It is a problem of the player, up until enough are dissuaded the game can't maintain a sustainable population. Then it is the problem of the provider.
That point may never come in SC, keeping such a perspective irrelevant perpetually. Then again it may and we'll see how resolute they are in their vision then.
Aka EVE vs New World.
SC seems to be doing alright so far saleswise with their design choice, though they could still switch further down the line.
SC has done incredibly well in sales for something predominantly promises and possibilities. It also generates a lot of expenses.
So, it's hard to say how alright they are doing. Their foundation could be rock solid. Then again, if could be a house of cards with a mansion facade subject to collapse should their sales start to dry up.
Some players play garbage games and enjoy themselves and garbage players play good games and don't enjoy it. What a world!
Well at least we don't post garbage here, eh?
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
I think when a player goes PK a random number of lives should be
assigned to the character and once those run out the player is
permanently dead. The number of remaining lives is hidden from the
player.
This sounds like a recipe for getting people to quit your game.
Couldnt make this up if I tried to ... (that you would post exactly these two things in sequence).
The problem with full loot PvP is that your gear cannot be actually valueable.
That means your game cannot have the sword that takes a month or two to farm.
Or the armor piece you raided for since two years and finally managed to get your grubby hands on.
If you have BOTH full loot PvP and hard to get items, people WILL leave the game, and reasonably so, after losing these insanely hard to get items within a minute a /ragequit is perfectly reasonable.
Thus all you can have in a full loot pvp game is some secondary resource of some sort, like a bank account (within the virtual world, not in reallife), that allows you to quickly get equally good new gear once you lost the old gear.
I guess this really shows again that different people like different kinds of games.
I am not sure how my disliking of randomized permadeath makes my taste for Full Loot PvP something that you couldn't make up if you tried? Losing your entire character is one thing and losing all your gear is another. If my character is going to have a limited amount of lives then I'd at least like to know how many lives I get. I also didn't mention that I personally would quit the game over it. "LOL full loot PvP nerd doesn't wanna lose his character but LOVES to lose all his gear!!" Come on son. Guess this goes to show there's all kinds of different people that love different kinds of forum PvP.
I'd only implement such a system in a world that offered faction vs. faction, guild vs. guild, and other forms of "legal" PvP. Any killing or deaths within sanctioned PvP would have no impact on player lives.
This rules out a lot of immersion in games in general, and in my eyes, fun. Take UO in its old days for example. There were caravans that would travel from city to city for trade, and some players resorted to becoming highwaymen who would wait on the roads for these caravans and kill them for their things. Your caravan would need bodyguards to ensure safety of your goods. If that isn't PvP at its finest I don't know what it is. Of course this allows for the random killings of low level players but I consider it a necessary evil in these types of games. I've never been corpse-camped in any game longer than an hour, and logging out to take a break for a few minutes and come back later isn't the biggest deal in the world. Sometimes I wish a game would bring back the Wilderness that Runescape offered up. Full loot PvP zone which only endgame-ish players are required to go to. It really makes you prepare yourself and hinders the ability to troll noobs. I am fine with a full world of full loot pvp but a dedicated zone with a lot enticing materials/quests is fine enough for me too.
That's not the way the majority of PvP players play these games today.
Because those games actually do a piss poor job of creating consequences for player actions taken against others. And, like I've mentioned before, until gamers are willing to tie their accounts to their real identities and suffer a truly permanent ban if they do not heed the words of GMs... The types of PvP games you mention above will never creep above a small niche, and they will always be flooded with psycho player killing campers who get their fun by robbing the fun from others.
Let me ask you a couple of questions: 1: Can you think of a single advantage the caravan has... even one? 2: How many times would you have to lose hours of crafting work to PKs such that you'd never use a caravan again?
I pointed out a few different examples rather than just the UO one but I'll entertain:
1) The caravan has the goods, the reason they are being hunted. Why they would need an advantage is a little lost on me. 2) Crafting in a game isn't work to me, if I am looking at a game and thinking of it as work then I've already lost the game.
I am well aware of how these systems have been abused over time for example, huge guilds that travel from game to game and have 50-man raids on said caravan. I don't claim to have the fixes for these issues, but I also don't believe in guild vs guild optional pvp either. If pvp is optional then it will always result in no one ever taking anything useful into combat and therefore, there is never a reward for pvp other than epeen. I would much prefer people banding together to fend off the 50-man raid of their caravan over optional pvp on the caravan and never gaining anything from it.
In asking for an advantage for the caravan what I meant was in a PvP situation the PK has an enormous set of advantages. Given that, why would anyone take on the role of a caravan and fight at a disadvantage?
As for crafting being work - I doubt you've ever crafted in any game just to throw away all of the benefits it should give you (wealth, status, etc).
My problem with PKs isn't that death happen, rather, it is the enormous advantages they bring in games like UO.
For me personally, the frustration was I had no way to counter what the PKs were doing. Even if I managed to kill one of them he could literally be back in minutes fully geared and ready to mess up my evening. Killing them accomplished nothing.
I think it is possible to come up with systems that help counter the advantages that PKs have but I've yet to see a developer do so in a way I find appealing. I think "limited lives" on a PK would do quite a bit to get bounty hunters interested in hunting these guys down - especially if you got a trophy for landing the final kill.
The idea may suck in practice... I dunno, let's come up with something though.
Bah , we took advantage of the PKS thirst on Atlantic at that time by running Fake Caravans ..Was fun as hell , but we were laying traps for PKs all over ... During those times..
UO is a game wherethe tools were/are there for the players to combat the PKs , you just needed to organize and do it ..The reason Pks got an advantage most times is they were better organized than many players , we recognized and changed that..
By 98 we had assembled a good bunch of 7x players ( are core was 8) with other groups involved at times we 20-30 players patrolling or setting traps for PKs all over Atlantic. Fun times ..
The reason they had the advantage is ...You let them have it ... We took it away and turned the tables on them ..
It was more fun back then 97-2002 or so than it is now ..
I still , along with my guild do alot of stuff In Felluca, we run dungeons there for rares, drop rates are better , as well as resource and skill gain bonuses, but there is no where near the action there was years ago , but it's just enough that you better have your senses about you, or become a victim ..
Let me ask you a couple of questions: 1: Can you think of a single advantage the caravan has... even one? 2: How many times would you have to lose hours of crafting work to PKs such that you'd never use a caravan again?
I pointed out a few different examples rather than just the UO one but I'll entertain:
1) The caravan has the goods, the reason they are being hunted. Why they would need an advantage is a little lost on me. 2) Crafting in a game isn't work to me, if I am looking at a game and thinking of it as work then I've already lost the game.
I am well aware of how these systems have been abused over time for example, huge guilds that travel from game to game and have 50-man raids on said caravan. I don't claim to have the fixes for these issues, but I also don't believe in guild vs guild optional pvp either. If pvp is optional then it will always result in no one ever taking anything useful into combat and therefore, there is never a reward for pvp other than epeen. I would much prefer people banding together to fend off the 50-man raid of their caravan over optional pvp on the caravan and never gaining anything from it.
In asking for an advantage for the caravan what I meant was in a PvP situation the PK has an enormous set of advantages. Given that, why would anyone take on the role of a caravan and fight at a disadvantage?
As for crafting being work - I doubt you've ever crafted in any game just to throw away all of the benefits it should give you (wealth, status, etc).
My problem with PKs isn't that death happen, rather, it is the enormous advantages they bring in games like UO.
For me personally, the frustration was I had no way to counter what the PKs were doing. Even if I managed to kill one of them he could literally be back in minutes fully geared and ready to mess up my evening. Killing them accomplished nothing.
I think it is possible to come up with systems that help counter the advantages that PKs have but I've yet to see a developer do so in a way I find appealing. I think "limited lives" on a PK would do quite a bit to get bounty hunters interested in hunting these guys down - especially if you got a trophy for landing the final kill.
The idea may suck in practice... I dunno, let's come up with something though.
Bah , we took advantage of the PKS thirst on Atlantic at that time by running Fake Caravans ..Was fun as hell , but we were laying traps for PKs all over ... During those times..
UO is a game wherethe tools were/are there for the players to combat the PKs , you just needed to organize and do it ..The reason Pks got an advantage most times is they were better organized than many players , we recognized and changed that..
By 98 we had assembled a good bunch of 7x players ( are core was 8) with other groups involved at times we 20-30 players patrolling g or setting traos for PKs all over Atlantic. Fun times ..
The reason you they had the advantage is ...You let them have it ... We took it away and turned the tables on them ..
It was more fun back then 97-2002 or so than it is now ..
I still , along with my guild do alot of stuff In Felluca, we run dungeons there for rares, drop rates are better , as well as resource and skill gain bonuses, but there is no where near the action there was years ago , but it's just enough that you better have your senses about you, or become a victim ..
That is fun for people who enjoy PvP. Not so fun for people trying to enjoy the game in other ways.
Crafters/life skillers can stay at home without fear of dying, while the PvPers can go out and bring back the materials for the folks at home. There's a place for everyone in these types of games. There is quite a repertoire of PvE focused MMORPGs for the people that disagree, but very very few PvP MMORPGs where us bloodthirsty savages can reside.
There's a fundamental reason for that. PvP requires a player to lose. PvE does not.
The problem with full loot PvP is that your gear cannot be actually valueable.
That means your game cannot have the sword that takes a month or two to farm.
Or the armor piece you raided for since two years and finally managed to get your grubby hands on.
If you have BOTH full loot PvP and hard to get items, people WILL leave the game, and reasonably so, after losing these insanely hard to get items within a minute a /ragequit is perfectly reasonable.
Thus all you can have in a full loot pvp game is some secondary resource of some sort, like a bank account (within the virtual world, not in reallife), that allows you to quickly get equally good new gear once you lost the old gear.
Mostly yes, regular gameplay is like that. But EVE also has Titans, Albion has some pretty expensive gear too.
Titans are cheap compared to the rare, limited edition hulls awarded over the years.
I was always aghast when I saw someone had been fighting in one, they could be valued up to a quarter billion or more, not that they were ever really sold.
Gear in EVE is not cheap, players routinely fight in and lose very expensive ships worth billions of ISK, yet both PVE and PVP go on.
I personally lost about 3 weeks of mining effort right outside of Jira, valued at about 4B ISK at the time, and wouldn't you know, none of it was destroyed...damn...
(Yes, I made mistakes)
Attackers lost about $250M ISK for their efforts....
It isn't for everyone, but having to put something of value definitely changes the way one plays these games for sure.
Throwing caution to the wind almost never happens, same for ever finding yourself in a fair fight, if you do, someone did something very wrong.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Comments
But honestly, I've given up on wide open PvP.
Too many problems between players.
Once upon a time....
Page after page your "only talking about the sport", nothing about Star Citizen.
Nothing about being lost in a big beautiful world, working together as one.
But a sport !!
I guess, theirs nothing wrong with it. Full loot PvP is still classified as an mmorpg, but not what sucked me into early game play so many years ago.
Important:
I also talked about this in Ashes of Creation.... Once a game has world PvP it looses flavor of being anything else.....Think about that !
Unfairness, getting ganked, being a newb and not being strong enough...... Never about what you mentioned.
Important:
Again, Once a game is full loot PvP, it looses it's flavor of being anything else.
Peoples first reaction, or first thought about this game is full loot PvP. Still what your talking about comes way later.
Deep down you know this and I don't blame you for sticking up for your game, so no hard feelings
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
------------
2024: 47 years on the Net.
SC has done incredibly well in sales for something predominantly promises and possibilities. It also generates a lot of expenses.
So, it's hard to say how alright they are doing. Their foundation could be rock solid. Then again, if could be a house of cards with a mansion facade subject to collapse should their sales start to dry up.
Well at least we don't post garbage here, eh?
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
------------
2024: 47 years on the Net.
Because those games actually do a piss poor job of creating consequences for player actions taken against others. And, like I've mentioned before, until gamers are willing to tie their accounts to their real identities and suffer a truly permanent ban if they do not heed the words of GMs... The types of PvP games you mention above will never creep above a small niche, and they will always be flooded with psycho player killing campers who get their fun by robbing the fun from others.
UO is a game wherethe tools were/are there for the players to combat the PKs , you just needed to organize and do it ..The reason Pks got an advantage most times is they were better organized than many players , we recognized and changed that..
By 98 we had assembled a good bunch of 7x players ( are core was 8) with other groups involved at times we 20-30 players patrolling or setting traps for PKs all over Atlantic. Fun times ..
The reason they had the advantage is ...You let them have it ... We took it away and turned the tables on them ..
It was more fun back then 97-2002 or so than it is now ..
I still , along with my guild do alot of stuff In Felluca, we run dungeons there for rares, drop rates are better , as well as resource and skill gain bonuses, but there is no where near the action there was years ago , but it's just enough that you better have your senses about you, or become a victim ..
I was always aghast when I saw someone had been fighting in one, they could be valued up to a quarter billion or more, not that they were ever really sold.
Gear in EVE is not cheap, players routinely fight in and lose very expensive ships worth billions of ISK, yet both PVE and PVP go on.
I personally lost about 3 weeks of mining effort right outside of Jira, valued at about 4B ISK at the time, and wouldn't you know, none of it was destroyed...damn...
(Yes, I made mistakes)
Attackers lost about $250M ISK for their efforts....
It isn't for everyone, but having to put something of value definitely changes the way one plays these games for sure.
Throwing caution to the wind almost never happens, same for ever finding yourself in a fair fight, if you do, someone did something very wrong.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon