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MMO Developers and PvP community vastly underrate the appeal that a True PvPvE has
MMOExposed
Member RarePosts: 7,400
PvPvE, aka Player vs Player vs Environment is a very interesting form of gameplay that seem to be completely abandoned in the MMO sphere.
When Developers do try it out, they do the very minimum bare bone tip toeing to not piss off the PvP Elitist that hate all PvE, Instead of trying to make a unified interesting PvPvE experience.
I play a lot of WvW in Guild Wars 2 for instance. This game mode had a lot of hype before it was released. it was marketed as a PvPvE game mode. But pretty much all the PvE stuff was irrelevant, and it lead to masses of players dropping the game mode early in its life.
I know WoW is hated in many parts of the MMO PvP Sphere, but one thing I must give them props on, is the Old AV was the perfect blend of PvP and PvE. I never seen anything like it since vanilla WoW.
I want something like that but on a larger scale. But just about every MMO with some kind of attempt at PvPvE, the PvP Elitist want all the PvE elements removed instead of fleshing out the game modes to improve the PvPvE. Look at New World for example. Its Outpost Rush was an attempt at this, but it lacks any real deep development in that area. Instead of improving the PvPvE, seem so many want to just get rid of all the PvE there and make it a giant arena PvP match. But isnt that what those Overwatch and Battle Royales suppose to be about? There is plenty of gameplay in this space for that. But not a single MMO that attempts to make a deep rich PvPvE experience.
When Developers do try it out, they do the very minimum bare bone tip toeing to not piss off the PvP Elitist that hate all PvE, Instead of trying to make a unified interesting PvPvE experience.
I play a lot of WvW in Guild Wars 2 for instance. This game mode had a lot of hype before it was released. it was marketed as a PvPvE game mode. But pretty much all the PvE stuff was irrelevant, and it lead to masses of players dropping the game mode early in its life.
I know WoW is hated in many parts of the MMO PvP Sphere, but one thing I must give them props on, is the Old AV was the perfect blend of PvP and PvE. I never seen anything like it since vanilla WoW.
I want something like that but on a larger scale. But just about every MMO with some kind of attempt at PvPvE, the PvP Elitist want all the PvE elements removed instead of fleshing out the game modes to improve the PvPvE. Look at New World for example. Its Outpost Rush was an attempt at this, but it lacks any real deep development in that area. Instead of improving the PvPvE, seem so many want to just get rid of all the PvE there and make it a giant arena PvP match. But isnt that what those Overwatch and Battle Royales suppose to be about? There is plenty of gameplay in this space for that. But not a single MMO that attempts to make a deep rich PvPvE experience.
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
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On the other side the PvE elitist don't want to be forced to PvP to do PvE content.
I am a 50/50 PvP/PvE player but I want to have it divided, because I play PvE if I want to chill or want to play with the possibility to have breaks in between.
Imho the best solution are maps with RvR zones, because you can quest/grind in the zone but still check what is happening in the conquested zone and quickly jump in and out of open world PvP.
1997 Meridian 59 'til 2019 ESO
Waiting for Camelot Unchained & Pantheon
I'm sure that some crazy somewhere has at one time or another said that there was too much PvE mixed in with their PvP but it hasn't happened often enough for there to be a recognizable group like you're implying.
They sound more like a fantasy construct from a PvPphobe's darkest nightmare.
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I think it's better to simply say focused. That would prevent points in the original post getting derailed by possible name calling.
As with most mmo's there are people who will stick solely to one playing format and others who like to decide when they would like to switch, e.g, pvp castle sieges and so on.
I believe the format of pvpve has the obvious issue in forcing pve lovers to pvp. Why should they, when they can go to many games that don't force this?
Let them go you say.
Ok. That just shows pvpve games lose at least half the mmo playerbase from the get go.
I'm not saying there shouldn't be pvpve game out there, of course not. Some people will get along ok with the format. As long as it is acknowledged by the game creators and players, that it will only attract lower numbers.
That isn't a judgement on either player group, just an acknowledgement that the two types of gameplay are very fundamentally different.
Having PvP simply enabled in an online open world while you're doing PvE game loops that exist irrelevant of any PvP system is a far different situation, and that's the one most prevalent in Albion and EVE. That's not really PvPvE so much as open world PvP in a game with PvE content.
Alterac Valley was PvPvE, but it is not at all the same experience as getting ganked in Stranglethorn while you're trying to complete PvE quests.
A lot of the WvW players in GW2, were not happy with too much PvE being put into the game, because it was so overdone that distracted from PvP. This was mostly noted with HoT, and the new desert maps, which put in a bunch of aggressive PvE mobs, that really distracted from the PvP/Objective Capture aspect of the game.
They also fussed about Harvesting nodes being all over the place, so much so, that zergs would all stop to chop down a tree, literally mid keep charge.
To their Credit, Anet changed the aggression on the mobs in the Desert maps, so they would not agro unless attacked, which allowed players to fight and not have random mobs jump in, and cause a problem.
They also removed the random harvesting nodes in the maps, and placed them all inside control points, so if you wanted to harvest, it was done in a Camp, tower, or Keep, not in some open field.
On the flip side of this, the Pure PvE players hated that they needed to complete the WvW maps for map completion to get a legendary weapon, so, while WvW maps still have all the normal map points, like POI's, Vista's and the like, they no longer count towards world map completion, so you can now get a legendary weapon without ever doing WvW.
NGL, while I enjoyed WvW as a game mode, a lot of the WvW players were assholes about their view that PvP players were Superior to PvE players, and some would go so far as to even find ways to attack their own team members, if they thought they were PvE scrubs, so, I get where the PvE players were coming from, not wanting to deal with that kind of environment.
In this regard, I think GW2, did things about the best they could, by making the game modes separate from each other, while still coexisting. If you want to PvP, the options are there, but if you go to PvP, know everyone else there, is there to PvP as well, none of this jumping PvE players, to the point that you have Straight up Structured PvP that is all PvP, nothing PvE about it, you have WvW, which is a mix of PvP and PvE elements, and you have Straight up PvE areas that have no PvP.
So you can go and play as you like, all within the same game, which is a good plan, I mean, I hate to say it, while I like it, every game mode also feels neglected at the same time.. so.. it suffers from a "Big Net" problem.
And as TheDalaiBomba said, PvPvE isnt just PvE in a PvP Flagged Zone.
Its the blend of PvE Objectives into a PvP combative setting. In which doing certain PvE task, contribute to the war efforts in different ways.
I use Old AV as an example, since it had so many different layers of PvPvE elements that all contribute in some way to the battle between 40 vs 40 players.
The overall map had an objective, which was to kill the Keep Lords.
This meant taking down Towers and Captains, which spawn powerful guards that defend the Keep Lord.
Towers required people to defend them and capture them.
there were Respawn Graveyard mechanics that also required capture and defenses.
Players dropped special mats that was used for quest to upgrade the NPC units and to summon special units that could tilt the wind of battle into your favor if used properly.
It had third party NPC faction objectives that also contributed to the war, and players fought over.
The NPCs were powerful , and players had to use strategy to deal with them and defending faction players at the same time. This could flip a battle making outcomes less predictable and keeps players on their toes.
We would be clashing back and forth like this for hours at a time. Was way ahead of its time.
This was all done back in like 2006. It died in 2007. I never seen anything that blended PvP and PvE that nicely, since. Old AV died before TBC came out.
I want that experience again but on a grander scale. Like what WvW numbers can do if not better. But with very well put together blend of PvPvE gameplay. With multiple small objectives here and there and larger objectives and goals, and many interactions with NPCs that can help contribute to the battle.
Sort of like a Massively Multiplayer First Person RTS experience or something. Multi-layered goals and objectives, rather than just simply fighting each other. Because I can do pure fighting in a typical Overwatch clone or a Battle Royale, which is pure player fighting.
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
I don't believe it's ever been said on these forums, or anywhere else "I refuse to do any pve". Please correct me if I'm wrong.
On the other hand, daily we see pve only people refuse pvp and demand it be removed. Imho these people have damaged tlhe mmorpg beyond repair.
For as long as I can remember, a lot of WvW and PvP players in GW2, would take great pride in how little PvE they did, often looking down at the PvE players as lesser players.
However they were also so toxic, in contrast to the rest of the community, that Anet removed the WvW Sub-forums, the only community in GW2 that was as toxic, or perhaps even more so, was the raider community at the start of HoT.
No idea how things are these days, and I can't say I give a shit.
To be honest, I can't say there has been a time when I was doing some PvE bullshit, and thought, you know what would make this better, if some ganking asshole put an arrow in my back.
Which might be why, PvE players don't feel the need to add PvP to their game mode.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
But I think it would be wild if that kind of spell/ability was open to a game where PvE players could in fact remove the PvP flag from an Area around them, and see how much PvP players liked being at their whim.
Perhaps have it be a fixed Flag, called Pacifism, or Pacifist, were they could just stop all ongoing PvP in an AOE around them, perhaps a quite large AOE, and it grew in size the more Pacifist that gathered together, as opposed to just being stacking AOE, where each one added their AOE, each Pacifist would increase the size of the AOE they were in, by say 50%.
I swear the trolling would be legendary, I am thinking like in GW2, WvW, someone starts a siege on Stonemist in ETB, and a bunch of pacifist show up, and turn what was a PvP Siege Event, into a PvE event.
That would be epic... I would pay money to be in that game.. and I would roll a Pacifist, just to do things like that.
But in the spirit of Alterac valley, in DAOC RVRers had to kill a keep's NPC defenders in addition to any player defenders, which if they were jacked up to level 10 could be quite challenging to a smaller raid group.
They later added various control points, which come to think of it ESO has similar, a variety of lumbermills or farms which have NPC defenders who have to be cleared before the assault on the keep can begin, which is also defended by a formitible number of NPC defenders.
They also have various PVE objectives which have to be cleared in their central city in order to reach a win condition.
So there you have it, play ESO, problem solved once again.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
In Alterac Valley, you wouldn't go hoping to avoid all PvP because it's a core part of that game loop.
I refuse to do any pve.