The only death penalty I feel are "weak" are those which allow the player to finally bypass content. For instance, WoW's ghost walking. The sting of the debuff is real, you lose some gold, but when was gold a problem the last time for you in WoW ?
To the opposite, you have games like UO and AC1. In AC1 you could actually mitigate the item drop on death, but at release in UO, you would lose everything. That's just stupid, specially back then when Internet was very unstable (MODEM !). I don't feel those are death penalties adapted to the nature of online gaming.
ESO, NW, LOTRO, all those games have good, balanced death penalties. Bad enough to make you not want to die, but not bad enough to make you not wanting to take any risk. Even though ESO's soul gems are a bit of a stretch... I actually like the "camp" mechanism of New World, it allows you to mitigate the effect of death, but unlike soul gems, doesn't allow you to abuse it to bypass content.
That's a good post, but as far as UO and losing everything, that was mainly a problem because of PKers and Looters. It had benefits, where players helped each other out (if they weren't a PKer or looter) and you found friends, and even a guild to join with good players you could count on. And if you're with friends you don't have to worry about it because they'll Res you and you're back in action almost immediately. So doing something about the abusive player behavior changes everything.
I actually believe in dropping all loot on death. It makes the game more exciting and adds that social stuff which is also a benefit.
Of course, like so much else, big power gaps and uber loot based on it ruins the game, all around. Although it does make players slobber all over themselves, there's that.
I think Elden Ring, or any other game regardless of who made it, can be described as easy by any that find it so. Many of the factors you raise in relation to difficulty are not game dependent but instead player intrinsic.
Manual dexterity and the capacity for memorization and recall vary greatly between persons. Those abundantly so gifted will find games reliant on such easier than those not, and coincidentally be more able to speed run them when at that point.
Mountain climbing is hard, but not equally hard for everyone. Some of that variance in difficulty is dependent on personal aptitudes. Some will simply be more suited to it than others just as some are more suited to playing action-based video games than others, but with those factors relevant being different.
It is simply fact that even when all else is equal differences in natural aptitudes will lead to different levels of performance. Those gifted in relevant factors will find tasks easier than those not. As such, Elden Ring has variable difficulty between persons, with those particularly gifted potentially finding it much easier.
You're comparing difficulty in the context of player ability, which isn't really useful in a discussion about the general difficulty of a game in the context of other games.
Elden Ring is difficult because it, generally, requires more learning, faster reaction, and more memorization of disparate information and NPC behavior that most other games.
That some people are better equipped to master such tasks doesn't change how difficult the game is in the context of other video games.
Again: the fact that some people find mountain climbing easier than others changes nothing about the fact that climbing Everest is harder than climbing an indoor fabricated rock wall to everyone who tries.
I think Death Penalty is important to the game but it should be cohesive to the vision of the game and what the overall experience you want your players to have.
Death Penalty should act as a crucible for player skill to some degree. What does that mean? A harsher death penalty would cause most players to take the game more seriously, activate a heighten sense of standard player skills, such as having more awareness, thinking about what you're doing and strategizing on how to survive the encounter. I have always found that mmos with a harsh death penalty, IE Everquest, you found most where better overall mmo players.
However, I think the paradigm has shifted to a certain extent and a harsh death penalty will only cater to a small margin of a player base. I think WoW's death penalty, while interesting, doesn't create a crucible for the player to "become better".
I do like Vanguard Approach, which is somewhere in the middle with XP debt and debuffs.
I am a fan of a moderate Death Penalty that encourages better player behavior but not harsh enough to turn players away.
My Death Penalty Proposal
- Progressional Penalty: XP Gain Debuff + Loss of Gear Durability
- XP Gain Debuff duration is always static, but the weight of the debuff is dependent on the level of NPC you die to.
- XP Gain Debuff duration = 5 minutes, and can stack up to 10 times. The duration stacks, not the value of the Debuff. So if you get a stack of 10, it's for 50 minutes for an 5% loss.
- If you die to an NPC who is 4+ levels than you, then your XP Gain Debuff = 2% loss of XP per kill/quest turn in
- If you die to an NPC who is your level or 3 levels above or below your XP Gain Debuff = 5% loss of XP per kill/quest turn in.
- If you die to an NPC who is -5 levels below you, then your XP gain Debuff = 8% loss of XP per kill/quest turn.
- Gear Durability loss is static per death, and you lose 5% of your durability per death.
- I like the idea of how WoW did the Corpse Runs while you're in a spirit realm. While I do believe the idea of a Corpse Run back to your Body with loss of XP from that, I don't think that would work for the community today.
I actually believe in dropping all loot on death. It makes the game more exciting and adds that social stuff which is also a benefit.
A lag spike, a disconnection, and all your stuff is gone.
I still don't think that's appropriate for an online game. Or the whole game must be designed with all gear being disposable and easily replaceable. This can be done, but then there's no more "gear pride", which is something player like a lot. Maybe mitigate it with a good transmog system, so players would collect epic appearances rather than epic stats ?
Respect, walk, what did you say? Respect, walk Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me? - PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
I actually believe in dropping all loot on death. It makes the game more exciting and adds that social stuff which is also a benefit.
A lag spike, a disconnection, and all your stuff is gone.
I still don't think that's appropriate for an online game. Or the whole game must be designed with all gear being disposable and easily replaceable. This can be done, but then there's no more "gear pride", which is something player like a lot. Maybe mitigate it with a good transmog system, so players would collect epic appearances rather than epic stats ?
When I play Diablo 3 seasons I tend to play 2 or 3 builds/classes and one of those is always a permadeath hardcore character.
I've been doing this for years in an area that is prone to high wind storms and occasional power outages in the winter. I have never had a single character die due to disconnects either at my end or theirs.
Mind you I play just my softcore characters when it's storming or when Blizzard is going through one of their many DDOS attacks.
YMMV.
Having said that I find harsh death penalties in MMOs to be boring time wasting wrist slaps. You either minimize that crap or play permadeath. Permadeath is death penalties for big boys in long pants
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
I actually believe in dropping all loot on death. It makes the game more exciting and adds that social stuff which is also a benefit.
A lag spike, a disconnection, and all your stuff is gone.
I still don't think that's appropriate for an online game. Or the whole game must be designed with all gear being disposable and easily replaceable. This can be done, but then there's no more "gear pride", which is something player like a lot. Maybe mitigate it with a good transmog system, so players would collect epic appearances rather than epic stats ?
When I play Diablo 3 seasons I tend to play 2 or 3 builds/classes and one of those is always a permadeath hardcore character.
I've been doing this for years in an area that is prone to high wind storms and occasional power outages in the winter. I have never had a single character die due to disconnects either at my end or theirs.
Mind you I play just my softcore characters when it's storming or when Blizzard is going through one of their many DDOS attacks.
YMMV.
Having said that I find harsh death penalties in MMOs to be boring time wasting wrist slaps. You either minimize that crap or play permadeath. Permadeath is death penalties for big boys in long pants
With ADSL and fiber nowadays, the issue is of course strongly reduced.
But back then in UO and AC1, I remember some frustrating disconnections that resulted in my death and long corpse runs.
Respect, walk, what did you say? Respect, walk Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me? - PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
I actually believe in dropping all loot on death. It makes the game more exciting and adds that social stuff which is also a benefit.
A lag spike, a disconnection, and all your stuff is gone.
I still don't think that's appropriate for an online game. Or the whole game must be designed with all gear being disposable and easily replaceable. This can be done, but then there's no more "gear pride", which is something player like a lot. Maybe mitigate it with a good transmog system, so players would collect epic appearances rather than epic stats ?
When I play Diablo 3 seasons I tend to play 2 or 3 builds/classes and one of those is always a permadeath hardcore character.
I've been doing this for years in an area that is prone to high wind storms and occasional power outages in the winter. I have never had a single character die due to disconnects either at my end or theirs.
Mind you I play just my softcore characters when it's storming or when Blizzard is going through one of their many DDOS attacks.
YMMV.
Having said that I find harsh death penalties in MMOs to be boring time wasting wrist slaps. You either minimize that crap or play permadeath. Permadeath is death penalties for big boys in long pants
With ADSL and fiber nowadays, the issue is of course strongly reduced.
But back then in UO and AC1, I remember some frustrating disconnections that resulted in my death and long corpse runs.
Don't forget when you realized that you forgot to "block incoming calls (Call Waiting)" from your phone line before logging in
PS: My area has horrible internet. Small Midwestern town and all that. My internet is improving, losing connections from once a week to once a month, but still lost. It's why I laugh out loud when I read/see all this talk about "cloud servers" and such. Nothing like having one's whole internet collapse on a whim and no other choices are available (common US practice - monopoly).
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
the more extreme the death penalties the easier the mob encounters.
This is a fundamental design feature.
Looking at extremes, if a death cost a player 40 hours playtime, that player would have to play content where the average death was less than once every 40 hours, otherwise they would never progress.
Another example would be someone doing hardcore permadeath. Lets say conservatively it would take 10k mob encounters before reaching max level, if someone reached max level that means they had less than 1 death over 10000 encounters. That's a 99.99% success rate. That's not very challenging to that player. They are pretty much on ez mode the entire time.
So anyone advocating for harsh death penalties is effectively advocating for EZ mode mob encounter difficulty. You cant have one without the other. Having harsh death penalties and hard difficulty to the player cannot exist in the game at the same time otherwise the player would never advance.
So what we are really talking about is some players want:
A.) ez mode redundant gameplay where they get their excitement from an extremely low chance death encounter.
Versus
B.) dynamic difficult exciting encounter, where death happens frequently while they figure out the encounter.
Only 2 camps, people that want harsh death penalties are ALL in camp A.
the more extreme the death penalties the easier the mob encounters.
This is a fundamental design feature.
Looking at extremes, if a death cost a player 40 hours playtime, that player would have to play content where the average death was less than once every 40 hours, otherwise they would never progress.
Another example would be someone doing hardcore permadeath. Lets say conservatively it would take 10k mob encounters before reaching max level, if someone reached max level that means they had less than 1 death over 10000 encounters. That's a 99.99% success rate. That's not very challenging to that player. They are pretty much on ez mode the entire time.
So anyone advocating for harsh death penalties is effectively advocating for EZ mode mob encounter difficulty. You cant have one without the other. Having harsh death penalties and hard difficulty to the player cannot exist in the game at the same time otherwise the player would never advance.
So what we are really talking about is some players want:
A.) ez mode redundant gameplay where they get their excitement from an extremely low chance death encounter.
Versus
B.) dynamic difficult exciting encounter, where death happens frequently while they figure out the encounter.
Only 2 camps, people that want harsh death penalties are ALL in camp A.
False. Only people who want extreme death penalties want to survive almost all encounters.
Whereas if someone wants for example death penalty of 1 hour that's harsh by today's standards, and they can still have game where learning to beat a difficult raid boss takes dozens of attempts.
Also, you seem to be under false impression that doing something right on your first attempt is easy. It's one of the hardest things in life. It's just different kind of hard from a situation where you keep redoing until you hit it right.
I actually believe in dropping all loot on death. It makes the game more exciting and adds that social stuff which is also a benefit.
A lag spike, a disconnection, and all your stuff is gone.
I still don't think that's appropriate for an online game. Or the whole game must be designed with all gear being disposable and easily replaceable. This can be done, but then there's no more "gear pride", which is something player like a lot. Maybe mitigate it with a good transmog system, so players would collect epic appearances rather than epic stats ?
When I play Diablo 3 seasons I tend to play 2 or 3 builds/classes and one of those is always a permadeath hardcore character.
I've been doing this for years in an area that is prone to high wind storms and occasional power outages in the winter. I have never had a single character die due to disconnects either at my end or theirs.
Mind you I play just my softcore characters when it's storming or when Blizzard is going through one of their many DDOS attacks.
YMMV.
Having said that I find harsh death penalties in MMOs to be boring time wasting wrist slaps. You either minimize that crap or play permadeath. Permadeath is death penalties for big boys in long pants
I actually believe in dropping all loot on death. It makes the game more exciting and adds that social stuff which is also a benefit.
A lag spike, a disconnection, and all your stuff is gone.
I still don't think that's appropriate for an online game. Or the whole game must be designed with all gear being disposable and easily replaceable. This can be done, but then there's no more "gear pride", which is something player like a lot. Maybe mitigate it with a good transmog system, so players would collect epic appearances rather than epic stats ?
Remember that I also believe in lower Power Gaps, so that players aren't divided and a "world of exploration" can exist. (Scaling...blah.)
So "Epic" still happens in a relative form, but it's not as devastating to lose it.
But there's more. UO had "Wandering Healers", NPC,s that roamed the wilds to Res players. That's a good idea. But also, I think having small Shrines for Reses spread out around so that Corpse Runs are never terribly bad is a good idea. (Add more game play in Map Making by players here, too.) Then there's fellow Players who can Res instantly, which is a great social builder.
All of that being said, a player can still lose all their gear. UNWP! (Use Noggin While Playing). 1. If you are experiencing bad connections, don't take out your best gear. 2. Generally, only use your best gear when you are playing with guildmates or friends. 3. Prepare. Get extra best gear as well as backup gear.
the more extreme the death penalties the easier the mob encounters.
This is a fundamental design feature.
Looking at extremes, if a death cost a player 40 hours playtime, that player would have to play content where the average death was less than once every 40 hours, otherwise they would never progress.
Another example would be someone doing hardcore permadeath. Lets say conservatively it would take 10k mob encounters before reaching max level, if someone reached max level that means they had less than 1 death over 10000 encounters. That's a 99.99% success rate. That's not very challenging to that player. They are pretty much on ez mode the entire time.
So anyone advocating for harsh death penalties is effectively advocating for EZ mode mob encounter difficulty. You cant have one without the other. Having harsh death penalties and hard difficulty to the player cannot exist in the game at the same time otherwise the player would never advance.
So what we are really talking about is some players want:
A.) ez mode redundant gameplay where they get their excitement from an extremely low chance death encounter.
Versus
B.) dynamic difficult exciting encounter, where death happens frequently while they figure out the encounter.
Only 2 camps, people that want harsh death penalties are ALL in camp A.
I don't think FromSoftware games fit those molds.
Sure, if you're carrying small amounts of souls or die in a relatively easy to reach area, the death penalty is small and the mobs can be easily dispatched. That's most certainly not a given, though, and one can easily lose tens of thousands of souls against opponents that are very difficult to beat. The game conditions players to plan ahead to avoid such situations, but it does not force them to do so or tell them directly to do so.
I often debated the death penalty in EQ back in the day....We were never really sure if it was there to build community or just another time sink to keep us playing (and paying) longer.
the more extreme the death penalties the easier the mob encounters.
This is a fundamental design feature.
Looking at extremes, if a death cost a player 40 hours playtime, that player would have to play content where the average death was less than once every 40 hours, otherwise they would never progress.
Another example would be someone doing hardcore permadeath. Lets say conservatively it would take 10k mob encounters before reaching max level, if someone reached max level that means they had less than 1 death over 10000 encounters. That's a 99.99% success rate. That's not very challenging to that player. They are pretty much on ez mode the entire time.
So anyone advocating for harsh death penalties is effectively advocating for EZ mode mob encounter difficulty. You cant have one without the other. Having harsh death penalties and hard difficulty to the player cannot exist in the game at the same time otherwise the player would never advance.
So what we are really talking about is some players want:
A.) ez mode redundant gameplay where they get their excitement from an extremely low chance death encounter.
Versus
B.) dynamic difficult exciting encounter, where death happens frequently while they figure out the encounter.
Only 2 camps, people that want harsh death penalties are ALL in camp A.
I don't think FromSoftware games fit those molds.
Sure, if you're carrying small amounts of souls or die in a relatively easy to reach area, the death penalty is small and the mobs can be easily dispatched. That's most certainly not a given, though, and one can easily lose tens of thousands of souls against opponents that are very difficult to beat. The game conditions players to plan ahead to avoid such situations, but it does not force them to do so or tell them directly to do so.
No FromSoftware fits exactly what I described. A smart player will only lose a couple of minutes of time nothing more. All they have to do is bank the souls before bosses. They have shortcuts straight to the bosses. Additionally it only takes minutes to get back to your souls, and you get them all back so no loss. You dont lose anything else so there is no cost to death other than a couple of minutes or less for an intelligent players time.
Which is exactly why they can have difficult bosses, because the player can fight them over and over again without fear of losing much or anything.
So you have inadvertently proven my exact point with your example.
If these games people lost dozens of hours on each death, they could never have these types of difficult mob gameplay in their games.
I think Elden Ring, or any other game regardless of who made it, can be described as easy by any that find it so. Many of the factors you raise in relation to difficulty are not game dependent but instead player intrinsic.
Manual dexterity and the capacity for memorization and recall vary greatly between persons. Those abundantly so gifted will find games reliant on such easier than those not, and coincidentally be more able to speed run them when at that point.
Mountain climbing is hard, but not equally hard for everyone. Some of that variance in difficulty is dependent on personal aptitudes. Some will simply be more suited to it than others just as some are more suited to playing action-based video games than others, but with those factors relevant being different.
It is simply fact that even when all else is equal differences in natural aptitudes will lead to different levels of performance. Those gifted in relevant factors will find tasks easier than those not. As such, Elden Ring has variable difficulty between persons, with those particularly gifted potentially finding it much easier.
You're comparing difficulty in the context of player ability, which isn't really useful in a discussion about the general difficulty of a game in the context of other games.
Elden Ring is difficult because it, generally, requires more learning, faster reaction, and more memorization of disparate information and NPC behavior that most other games.
That some people are better equipped to master such tasks doesn't change how difficult the game is in the context of other video games.
Again: the fact that some people find mountain climbing easier than others changes nothing about the fact that climbing Everest is harder than climbing an indoor fabricated rock wall to everyone who tries.
There is no general game difficulty because there is no general player ability. A game regardless of the intended difficulty will be more difficult for some and less so for others, depending on how well their personal aptitude relates to that particular game.
Just as climbing Everest is harder for some than others so too is climbing an indoor fabricated rock wall. Difficulty varies between persons no matter the intent.
I often debated the death penalty in EQ back in the day....We were never really sure if it was there to build community or just another time sink to keep us playing (and paying) longer.
If someone no longer wished to play a game I expect an unappreciated death penalty would ease and hasten that decision rather than delay it.
Their intent was likely the former if either of the two.
I often debated the death penalty in EQ back in the day....We were never really sure if it was there to build community or just another time sink to keep us playing (and paying) longer.
My opinion about EQ is the same than about UO and AC1. Those death penalties were inappropriate, at least for the time being, back then when you were connecting with a phone line.
Respect, walk, what did you say? Respect, walk Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me? - PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
When I play Diablo 3 seasons I tend to play 2 or 3 builds/classes and one of those is always a permadeath hardcore character.
I've been doing this for years in an area that is prone to high wind storms and occasional power outages in the winter. I have never had a single character die due to disconnects either at my end or theirs.
The fact that somebody plays a permadeath character online and
never died to power outages or network failures mostly simply means they
had luck so far. *shrug*
When I play Diablo 3 seasons I tend to play 2 or 3 builds/classes and one of those is always a permadeath hardcore character.
I've been doing this for years in an area that is prone to high wind storms and occasional power outages in the winter. I have never had a single character die due to disconnects either at my end or theirs.
The fact that somebody plays a permadeath character online and
never died to power outages or network failures mostly simply means they
had luck so far. *shrug*
Oh I know it's luck but I'm talking about 10 years and thousands of lucky hours.
From my own personal experience I would say that saying that disconnects is a reason to not have harsh death penalties is a weak argument.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Penalties for death in MMO's, one of the best i've come across, at least in the some of the stories featuring MMO's which seem to be a popular subject in fantasy based books these days, is games where the death of a players character in the game, resulted in the player being unable to use that character for several hours, so either another player with the appropriate skills revived you within 5 minutes or so of you being killed, or your character was unavailable for a few hours. One of the few things that rich and poor players alike cannot buy, is time, so it is a particularly apt penalty
Comments
It had benefits, where players helped each other out (if they weren't a PKer or looter) and you found friends, and even a guild to join with good players you could count on. And if you're with friends you don't have to worry about it because they'll Res you and you're back in action almost immediately.
So doing something about the abusive player behavior changes everything.
I actually believe in dropping all loot on death. It makes the game more exciting and adds that social stuff which is also a benefit.
Of course, like so much else, big power gaps and uber loot based on it ruins the game, all around.
Although it does make players slobber all over themselves, there's that.
Once upon a time....
Elden Ring is difficult because it, generally, requires more learning, faster reaction, and more memorization of disparate information and NPC behavior that most other games.
That some people are better equipped to master such tasks doesn't change how difficult the game is in the context of other video games.
Again: the fact that some people find mountain climbing easier than others changes nothing about the fact that climbing Everest is harder than climbing an indoor fabricated rock wall to everyone who tries.
Death Penalty should act as a crucible for player skill to some degree. What does that mean? A harsher death penalty would cause most players to take the game more seriously, activate a heighten sense of standard player skills, such as having more awareness, thinking about what you're doing and strategizing on how to survive the encounter. I have always found that mmos with a harsh death penalty, IE Everquest, you found most where better overall mmo players.
However, I think the paradigm has shifted to a certain extent and a harsh death penalty will only cater to a small margin of a player base. I think WoW's death penalty, while interesting, doesn't create a crucible for the player to "become better".
I do like Vanguard Approach, which is somewhere in the middle with XP debt and debuffs.
I am a fan of a moderate Death Penalty that encourages better player behavior but not harsh enough to turn players away.
My Death Penalty Proposal
- Progressional Penalty: XP Gain Debuff + Loss of Gear Durability
- XP Gain Debuff duration is always static, but the weight of the debuff is dependent on the level of NPC you die to.
- XP Gain Debuff duration = 5 minutes, and can stack up to 10 times. The duration stacks, not the value of the Debuff. So if you get a stack of 10, it's for 50 minutes for an 5% loss.
- If you die to an NPC who is 4+ levels than you, then your XP Gain Debuff = 2% loss of XP per kill/quest turn in
- If you die to an NPC who is your level or 3 levels above or below your XP Gain Debuff = 5% loss of XP per kill/quest turn in.
- If you die to an NPC who is -5 levels below you, then your XP gain Debuff = 8% loss of XP per kill/quest turn.
- Gear Durability loss is static per death, and you lose 5% of your durability per death.
- I like the idea of how WoW did the Corpse Runs while you're in a spirit realm. While I do believe the idea of a Corpse Run back to your Body with loss of XP from that, I don't think that would work for the community today.
Or the whole game must be designed with all gear being disposable and easily replaceable. This can be done, but then there's no more "gear pride", which is something player like a lot. Maybe mitigate it with a good transmog system, so players would collect epic appearances rather than epic stats ?
Respect, walk
Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me?
- PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
I've been doing this for years in an area that is prone to high wind storms and occasional power outages in the winter. I have never had a single character die due to disconnects either at my end or theirs.
Mind you I play just my softcore characters when it's storming or when Blizzard is going through one of their many DDOS attacks.
YMMV.
Having said that I find harsh death penalties in MMOs to be boring time wasting wrist slaps. You either minimize that crap or play permadeath. Permadeath is death penalties for big boys in long pants
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
With ADSL and fiber nowadays, the issue is of course strongly reduced.
But back then in UO and AC1, I remember some frustrating disconnections that resulted in my death and long corpse runs.
Respect, walk
Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me?
- PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
This is a fundamental design feature.
Looking at extremes, if a death cost a player 40 hours playtime, that player would have to play content where the average death was less than once every 40 hours, otherwise they would never progress.
Another example would be someone doing hardcore permadeath. Lets say conservatively it would take 10k mob encounters before reaching max level, if someone reached max level that means they had less than 1 death over 10000 encounters. That's a 99.99% success rate. That's not very challenging to that player. They are pretty much on ez mode the entire time.
So anyone advocating for harsh death penalties is effectively advocating for EZ mode mob encounter difficulty. You cant have one without the other. Having harsh death penalties and hard difficulty to the player cannot exist in the game at the same time otherwise the player would never advance.
So what we are really talking about is some players want:
A.) ez mode redundant gameplay where they get their excitement from an extremely low chance death encounter.
Versus
B.) dynamic difficult exciting encounter, where death happens frequently while they figure out the encounter.
Only 2 camps, people that want harsh death penalties are ALL in camp A.
Whereas if someone wants for example death penalty of 1 hour that's harsh by today's standards, and they can still have game where learning to beat a difficult raid boss takes dozens of attempts.
Also, you seem to be under false impression that doing something right on your first attempt is easy. It's one of the hardest things in life. It's just different kind of hard from a situation where you keep redoing until you hit it right.
/Cheers,
Lahnmir
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
https://biturl.top/rU7bY3
Beyond the shadows there's always light
/Cheers,
Lahnmir
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
Dang, you're going to give them some bad ideas !
Respect, walk
Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me?
- PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
/Cheers,
Lahnmir
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
Once upon a time....
(Scaling...blah.)
So "Epic" still happens in a relative form, but it's not as devastating to lose it.
But there's more. UO had "Wandering Healers", NPC,s that roamed the wilds to Res players. That's a good idea.
But also, I think having small Shrines for Reses spread out around so that Corpse Runs are never terribly bad is a good idea. (Add more game play in Map Making by players here, too.)
Then there's fellow Players who can Res instantly, which is a great social builder.
All of that being said, a player can still lose all their gear.
UNWP! (Use Noggin While Playing).
1. If you are experiencing bad connections, don't take out your best gear.
2. Generally, only use your best gear when you are playing with guildmates or friends.
3. Prepare. Get extra best gear as well as backup gear.
Once upon a time....
Sure, if you're carrying small amounts of souls or die in a relatively easy to reach area, the death penalty is small and the mobs can be easily dispatched. That's most certainly not a given, though, and one can easily lose tens of thousands of souls against opponents that are very difficult to beat. The game conditions players to plan ahead to avoid such situations, but it does not force them to do so or tell them directly to do so.
Which is exactly why they can have difficult bosses, because the player can fight them over and over again without fear of losing much or anything.
So you have inadvertently proven my exact point with your example.
If these games people lost dozens of hours on each death, they could never have these types of difficult mob gameplay in their games.
There is no general game difficulty because there is no general player ability. A game regardless of the intended difficulty will be more difficult for some and less so for others, depending on how well their personal aptitude relates to that particular game.
Just as climbing Everest is harder for some than others so too is climbing an indoor fabricated rock wall. Difficulty varies between persons no matter the intent.
Their intent was likely the former if either of the two.
My opinion about EQ is the same than about UO and AC1. Those death penalties were inappropriate, at least for the time being, back then when you were connecting with a phone line.
Respect, walk
Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me?
- PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
From my own personal experience I would say that saying that disconnects is a reason to not have harsh death penalties is a weak argument.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED