<snip> So yeah, like I said, the nostalgia factor is true to a point, but all too quickly those old school game's fail to deliver what the players are really seeking.
I think there's something to be said that a return to an old school game quickly reminds of us of the other half of nostalgia: why we aren't playing them still.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
The fact we remember those faction and team up faction wars so well shows you there is no better MMORPG than a 3 way Realm verses Realm.
Eh.. I am going to disagree with you.
I remember my first bike from when I was 10, a Huffy mountain bike, this does not mean that Huffy made the best bikes, or that I have not gotten a lot better bikes over the years since then, it just means, that was a bike that sits in my mind, because it was my first bike.
I think MMO's are no different, we recall things about DAOC, not because it was the best, or because better has not been made, but that for many of us, it was out first dip into the whole idea of Realms vs Realms.
Just like we recall a lot of our firsts, like our first Job, our first Car, our SO, and I bet you a lot of us who started with EQ1 or UO, can remember a lot of those games as well, this in no way makes them the best games we have ever played, or that they did it best.
I mean have any of played 4 Way, or 5 Way, has there even been larger numbers of factions or divisions in MMO beyond 3? I mean I haven't, but the idea of there being 5 teams also sounds pretty wild.
The nostalgia or rose colored glasses argument is often raised, and while partially true, it falls short too.
In the case of your Huffy bicycle, the reason you found better bicycles later in life is they actually are better than your first.
Not true so much for MMORPGs, because quite often some of the earliest titles delivered features and gameplay designs in a combination never really seen afterwards.
UO, SWG, DAOC, EverQuest 1, Anarchy Online, Asherons Call 1, EVE and heck, even Vanilla WOW delivered largely unique gameplay experiences.
Even if many shared similar mechanics it was where they differed which made playing them a wonder which rarely has been captured by any sequel or clone.
I'm starting to believe it's actually not possible to capture their "magic" anymore, those were different times, we were all different too, so now I try to find ways to find new magic in MMORPGS rather than try to recapture the old.
Alright... given that DDO has features that many here think would be ground breaking, or want a game with those features, and I played a text Based Mud Gemstone IV, that had a features list that would peoples balls drop, I will agree that modern games don't seem to have that same dynamic to them that older games have.
So.. I'll give you that one.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
The fact we remember those faction and team up faction wars so well shows you there is no better MMORPG than a 3 way Realm verses Realm.
Eh.. I am going to disagree with you.
I remember my first bike from when I was 10, a Huffy mountain bike, this does not mean that Huffy made the best bikes, or that I have not gotten a lot better bikes over the years since then, it just means, that was a bike that sits in my mind, because it was my first bike.
I think MMO's are no different, we recall things about DAOC, not because it was the best, or because better has not been made, but that for many of us, it was out first dip into the whole idea of Realms vs Realms.
Just like we recall a lot of our firsts, like our first Job, our first Car, our SO, and I bet you a lot of us who started with EQ1 or UO, can remember a lot of those games as well, this in no way makes them the best games we have ever played, or that they did it best.
I mean have any of played 4 Way, or 5 Way, has there even been larger numbers of factions or divisions in MMO beyond 3? I mean I haven't, but the idea of there being 5 teams also sounds pretty wild.
The nostalgia or rose colored glasses argument is often raised, and while partially true, it falls short too.
In the case of your Huffy bicycle, the reason you found better bicycles later in life is they actually are better than your first.
Not true so much for MMORPGs, because quite often some of the earliest titles delivered features and gameplay designs in a combination never really seen afterwards.
UO, SWG, DAOC, EverQuest 1, Anarchy Online, Asherons Call 1, EVE and heck, even Vanilla WOW delivered largely unique gameplay experiences.
Even if many shared similar mechanics it was where they differed which made playing them a wonder which rarely has been captured by any sequel or clone.
I'm starting to believe it's actually not possible to capture their "magic" anymore, those were different times, we were all different too, so now I try to find ways to find new magic in MMORPGS rather than try to recapture the old.
The success of Classic suggests you are wrong, but I think you are somewhat right; we can't recapture that old magic, but we can get a darn site closer than today's offerings.
Classic's success came from delivering the original experience to the largest MMORPG player base in history, well over 100M have actually subbed to WOW at some point.
The magic wore off rather quickly with Classic following the path of any other old school game's progression servers.
Every time a new DAOC freeshards opens there's a huge influx, I remember playing with 4K plus online on a single server when Phoenix launched but in very short time it faded from view only to be replaced by a new shard just recently.
So yeah, like I said, the nostalgia factor is true to a point, but all too quickly those old school game's fail to deliver what the players are really seeking.
"Progression Servers" hit me as kind of funny. It seems that most players RACE to the next expansion, so the very notion of playing an "old school" version of a game lasts... a few weeks? A month, maybe?
Why do players flock to a progression server just to make it the same as "Retail?"
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
The fact we remember those faction and team up faction wars so well shows you there is no better MMORPG than a 3 way Realm verses Realm.
Eh.. I am going to disagree with you.
I remember my first bike from when I was 10, a Huffy mountain bike, this does not mean that Huffy made the best bikes, or that I have not gotten a lot better bikes over the years since then, it just means, that was a bike that sits in my mind, because it was my first bike.
I think MMO's are no different, we recall things about DAOC, not because it was the best, or because better has not been made, but that for many of us, it was out first dip into the whole idea of Realms vs Realms.
Just like we recall a lot of our firsts, like our first Job, our first Car, our SO, and I bet you a lot of us who started with EQ1 or UO, can remember a lot of those games as well, this in no way makes them the best games we have ever played, or that they did it best.
I mean have any of played 4 Way, or 5 Way, has there even been larger numbers of factions or divisions in MMO beyond 3? I mean I haven't, but the idea of there being 5 teams also sounds pretty wild.
The nostalgia or rose colored glasses argument is often raised, and while partially true, it falls short too.
In the case of your Huffy bicycle, the reason you found better bicycles later in life is they actually are better than your first.
Not true so much for MMORPGs, because quite often some of the earliest titles delivered features and gameplay designs in a combination never really seen afterwards.
UO, SWG, DAOC, EverQuest 1, Anarchy Online, Asherons Call 1, EVE and heck, even Vanilla WOW delivered largely unique gameplay experiences.
Even if many shared similar mechanics it was where they differed which made playing them a wonder which rarely has been captured by any sequel or clone.
I'm starting to believe it's actually not possible to capture their "magic" anymore, those were different times, we were all different too, so now I try to find ways to find new magic in MMORPGS rather than try to recapture the old.
The success of Classic suggests you are wrong, but I think you are somewhat right; we can't recapture that old magic, but we can get a darn site closer than today's offerings.
Classic's success came from delivering the original experience to the largest MMORPG player base in history, well over 100M have actually subbed to WOW at some point.
The magic wore off rather quickly with Classic following the path of any other old school game's progression servers.
Every time a new DAOC freeshards opens there's a huge influx, I remember playing with 4K plus online on a single server when Phoenix launched but in very short time it faded from view only to be replaced by a new shard just recently.
So yeah, like I said, the nostalgia factor is true to a point, but all too quickly those old school game's fail to deliver what the players are really seeking.
"Progression Servers" hit me as kind of funny. It seems that most players RACE to the next expansion, so the very notion of playing an "old school" version of a game lasts... a few weeks? A month, maybe?
Why do players flock to a progression server just to make it the same as "Retail?"
I think the challenge is on who can get to the end the quickest.
Every new season in POE has players wildly racing through all content areas which the game rewards by announcing server wide as each milestone falls.
I used to dungeon delve, never getting much deeper than 600 and would marvel at this one guy who could push several thousand levels down in a matter of weeks starting with a fresh new character.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
The fact we remember those faction and team up faction wars so well shows you there is no better MMORPG than a 3 way Realm verses Realm.
Eh.. I am going to disagree with you.
I remember my first bike from when I was 10, a Huffy mountain bike, this does not mean that Huffy made the best bikes, or that I have not gotten a lot better bikes over the years since then, it just means, that was a bike that sits in my mind, because it was my first bike.
I think MMO's are no different, we recall things about DAOC, not because it was the best, or because better has not been made, but that for many of us, it was out first dip into the whole idea of Realms vs Realms.
Just like we recall a lot of our firsts, like our first Job, our first Car, our SO, and I bet you a lot of us who started with EQ1 or UO, can remember a lot of those games as well, this in no way makes them the best games we have ever played, or that they did it best.
I mean have any of played 4 Way, or 5 Way, has there even been larger numbers of factions or divisions in MMO beyond 3? I mean I haven't, but the idea of there being 5 teams also sounds pretty wild.
The nostalgia or rose colored glasses argument is often raised, and while partially true, it falls short too.
In the case of your Huffy bicycle, the reason you found better bicycles later in life is they actually are better than your first.
Not true so much for MMORPGs, because quite often some of the earliest titles delivered features and gameplay designs in a combination never really seen afterwards.
UO, SWG, DAOC, EverQuest 1, Anarchy Online, Asherons Call 1, EVE and heck, even Vanilla WOW delivered largely unique gameplay experiences.
Even if many shared similar mechanics it was where they differed which made playing them a wonder which rarely has been captured by any sequel or clone.
I'm starting to believe it's actually not possible to capture their "magic" anymore, those were different times, we were all different too, so now I try to find ways to find new magic in MMORPGS rather than try to recapture the old.
The success of Classic suggests you are wrong, but I think you are somewhat right; we can't recapture that old magic, but we can get a darn site closer than today's offerings.
Classic's success came from delivering the original experience to the largest MMORPG player base in history, well over 100M have actually subbed to WOW at some point.
The magic wore off rather quickly with Classic following the path of any other old school game's progression servers.
Every time a new DAOC freeshards opens there's a huge influx, I remember playing with 4K plus online on a single server when Phoenix launched but in very short time it faded from view only to be replaced by a new shard just recently.
So yeah, like I said, the nostalgia factor is true to a point, but all too quickly those old school game's fail to deliver what the players are really seeking.
You have to consider Classic wore off in no small part because everyone had done *exactly that content before.*
Imagine if Classic had been a well-designed reboot of the game, complete with altered classes, quests and zones? I think a lot of players would stay a lot longer.
Add in a modernized tooltip/tutorial/UI design, and I do think there's room for success there. As the Embers threads have shown, though: you have to find the right parts to bring back, and you have to couple those parts with the industry's evolution in other areas.
This is why Pillars of Eternity and Pathfinder have found success in reviving the old cRPG designs. They didn't just update some textures and throw an old cRPG up for sale. They spent a lot of resources trying to determine what mechanics were best left in the past, and which ones added value even today.
<snip> So yeah, like I said, the nostalgia factor is true to a point, but all too quickly those old school game's fail to deliver what the players are really seeking.
I think there's something to be said that a return to an old school game quickly reminds of us of the other half of nostalgia: why we aren't playing them still.
"Most" retail mmo servers are losing players.
"Most" old school emulators are gaining players.
This is about indie mmorpg development however. It's incredibly high risk because the industry (and players) has been corrupted by the infinite growth model of corporations. MMOs today have been clones of clones using existing engines and therefore twisted to the limitations of those engines, and maximized monetization trends which destroy the very nature of game design.
CU never had much of a chance to succeed, much like Pantheon struggles day by day. You can either give support, and ultimately wait with justified expectations, or you can whine on message boards along side the cowards who risks nothing, but expect everything.
<snip> So yeah, like I said, the nostalgia factor is true to a point, but all too quickly those old school game's fail to deliver what the players are really seeking.
I think there's something to be said that a return to an old school game quickly reminds of us of the other half of nostalgia: why we aren't playing them still.
"Most" retail mmo servers are losing players.
"Most" old school emulators are gaining players.
This is about indie mmorpg development however. It's incredibly high risk because the industry (and players) has been corrupted by the infinite growth model of corporations. MMOs today have been clones of clones using existing engines and therefore twisted to the limitations of those engines, and maximized monetization trends which destroy the very nature of game design.
CU never had much of a chance to succeed, much like Pantheon struggles day by day. You can either give support, and ultimately wait with justified expectations, or you can whine on message boards along side the cowards who risks nothing, but expect everything.
Just want to point out that:
You are wrong on all counts and the sentences you wrote don't even have logical consistency within themselves.
<snip> So yeah, like I said, the nostalgia factor is true to a point, but all too quickly those old school game's fail to deliver what the players are really seeking.
I think there's something to be said that a return to an old school game quickly reminds of us of the other half of nostalgia: why we aren't playing them still.
"Most" retail mmo servers are losing players.
"Most" old school emulators are gaining players.
This is about indie mmorpg development however. It's incredibly high risk because the industry (and players) has been corrupted by the infinite growth model of corporations. MMOs today have been clones of clones using existing engines and therefore twisted to the limitations of those engines, and maximized monetization trends which destroy the very nature of game design.
CU never had much of a chance to succeed, much like Pantheon struggles day by day. You can either give support, and ultimately wait with justified expectations, or you can whine on message boards along side the cowards who risks nothing, but expect everything.
Just want to point out that:
You are wrong on all counts and the sentences you wrote don't even have logical consistency within themselves.
Did you look that reply up on the internet? It contributes nothing. Counters nothing. If you feel better about yourself expressing your total lack of history and knowledge of mmorpg development since the 90's, then I hope you enjoy your day. Ignorance isn't my philosophical path however.
You'll complain about everything. It's why your post count keeps rising. This forum truly has turned into the mmorpg player elephant graveyard. Bitter, angry people.
It's one I put on the back burner a while ago. My time between excitement and back burner is much shorter than it used to be. I don't actively follow it, and when it comes out. I'll relook then. Otherwise, it's kind of a dead space in my MMO lens.
It's one I put on the back burner a while ago. My time between excitement and back burner is much shorter than it used to be. I don't actively follow it, and when it comes out. I'll relook then. Otherwise, it's kind of a dead space in my MMO lens.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
<snip> So yeah, like I said, the nostalgia factor is true to a point, but all too quickly those old school game's fail to deliver what the players are really seeking.
I think there's something to be said that a return to an old school game quickly reminds of us of the other half of nostalgia: why we aren't playing them still.
"Most" retail mmo servers are losing players.
"Most" old school emulators are gaining players.
This is about indie mmorpg development however. It's incredibly high risk because the industry (and players) has been corrupted by the infinite growth model of corporations. MMOs today have been clones of clones using existing engines and therefore twisted to the limitations of those engines, and maximized monetization trends which destroy the very nature of game design.
CU never had much of a chance to succeed, much like Pantheon struggles day by day. You can either give support, and ultimately wait with justified expectations, or you can whine on message boards along side the cowards who risks nothing, but expect everything.
Just want to point out that:
You are wrong on all counts and the sentences you wrote don't even have logical consistency within themselves.
Did you look that reply up on the internet? It contributes nothing. Counters nothing. If you feel better about yourself expressing your total lack of history and knowledge of mmorpg development since the 90's, then I hope you enjoy your day. Ignorance isn't my philosophical path however.
You'll complain about everything. It's why your post count keeps rising. This forum truly has turned into the mmorpg player elephant graveyard. Bitter, angry people.
Yep, we're all very sick and tired of game developers mis-repesenting their capability to deliver on what they promised, so makes us pretty cranky.
Sure, few project hit their first target date, but when that extends by many years with still no end in sight one has to wonder if the team really can ever deliver, no matter how much time or money is spent.
For all people decry "evil" big corporate development, they well understand games are a business, and must be run like one.
Now there's a lot of leeway on what it takes to delivery, with multiple routes to success, depending on if course what the team / firms's ultimate goals are.
Making money? It's just what people do to survive, some are just much better at it than others.
Now, here's where I should stop, but instead I'll do as you did, parting with a cheap shot about know nothing's who come to these forums to try and "educate" us plebes who just don't understand game development and whine all day.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
No updates on the test server this weekend. These guys honestly seem to work about 5 hours a week, based on their output.
I mean, most of them probably know that this is objectively a dead project (unless some idiot will buy out CSE, similar to what happened to Crowfall developers), so they don't really want to put much effort or time into this. Which is a pretty normal behavior. They're just doing very minimum to keep themselves from being fired while simultaneously browsing the job sites to look for similar remote work they're doing now at more successful companies.
No updates on the test server this weekend. These guys honestly seem to work about 5 hours a week, based on their output.
I mean, most of them probably know that this is objectively a dead project (unless some idiot will buy out CSE, similar to what happened to Crowfall developers), so they don't really want to put much effort or time into this. Which is a pretty normal behavior. They're just doing very minimum to keep themselves from being fired while simultaneously browsing the job sites to look for similar remote work they're doing now at more successful companies.
I'd believe this.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
No updates on the test server this weekend. These guys honestly seem to work about 5 hours a week, based on their output.
I mean, most of them probably know that this is objectively a dead project (unless some idiot will buy out CSE, similar to what happened to Crowfall developers), so they don't really want to put much effort or time into this. Which is a pretty normal behavior. They're just doing very minimum to keep themselves from being fired while simultaneously browsing the job sites to look for similar remote work they're doing now at more successful companies.
I'd believe this.
When the boss doesn't have a clearly defined measures of success it's not very difficult for employees to claim they are meeting them.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Comments
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
So.. I'll give you that one.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Every new season in POE has players wildly racing through all content areas which the game rewards by announcing server wide as each milestone falls.
I used to dungeon delve, never getting much deeper than 600 and would marvel at this one guy who could push several thousand levels down in a matter of weeks starting with a fresh new character.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Imagine if Classic had been a well-designed reboot of the game, complete with altered classes, quests and zones? I think a lot of players would stay a lot longer.
Add in a modernized tooltip/tutorial/UI design, and I do think there's room for success there. As the Embers threads have shown, though: you have to find the right parts to bring back, and you have to couple those parts with the industry's evolution in other areas.
This is why Pillars of Eternity and Pathfinder have found success in reviving the old cRPG designs. They didn't just update some textures and throw an old cRPG up for sale. They spent a lot of resources trying to determine what mechanics were best left in the past, and which ones added value even today.
"Most" old school emulators are gaining players.
This is about indie mmorpg development however. It's incredibly high risk because the industry (and players) has been corrupted by the infinite growth model of corporations. MMOs today have been clones of clones using existing engines and therefore twisted to the limitations of those engines, and maximized monetization trends which destroy the very nature of game design.
CU never had much of a chance to succeed, much like Pantheon struggles day by day. You can either give support, and ultimately wait with justified expectations, or you can whine on message boards along side the cowards who risks nothing, but expect everything.
You are wrong on all counts and the sentences you wrote don't even have logical consistency within themselves.
You'll complain about everything. It's why your post count keeps rising. This forum truly has turned into the mmorpg player elephant graveyard. Bitter, angry people.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Sure, few project hit their first target date, but when that extends by many years with still no end in sight one has to wonder if the team really can ever deliver, no matter how much time or money is spent.
For all people decry "evil" big corporate development, they well understand games are a business, and must be run like one.
Now there's a lot of leeway on what it takes to delivery, with multiple routes to success, depending on if course what the team / firms's ultimate goals are.
Making money? It's just what people do to survive, some are just much better at it than others.
Now, here's where I should stop, but instead I'll do as you did, parting with a cheap shot about know nothing's who come to these forums to try and "educate" us plebes who just don't understand game development and whine all day.
And of course, a funny meme...
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon