@AlBQuirky Argument from Anecdote Also called anecdotal argument or anecdotal evidence. It's a hard argument to move away from in many cases. It's natural to build perspective from personal experience even if contradicted by broader data, just because that data hasn't been personally experienced.
As it applies to the present conversation, I'm disinclined to offer an opinion on that part. I'd only be speaking from personal experience on that matter as well and grouping in games like ESO tends to lean towards just sprinting dailies and the other players not really mattering. I'll carry a PUG if I have to.
Yeah kind of like the opinion that LFG kills communities
Still waiting for the "broader data" on that one.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
It dawned on me, that I'm desperate for a new MMO. I like the excitement of launch day and the gnashing of teeth a ND rending of garments. I like that first character creation and learning the mechanics. The enjoyment of first exploring a new univers.
It's been a bit. I've had games I've had fun in, but nothing to get that sense of adventure. So, I think I'm grasping at straws. I did today what I said I would never do again. It's like when I play the lottery (which I rarely do). It's not the fact that lost. It's the fact that if I buy a lottery ticket, I'm convinced that this it it! So when I do lose, it's much more. Said
Anyone else, in this kinda 'help me obi wan MMO. You are my only hope?
Dude I just gave up trying to find something I could tolerate and play warframe now in the meantime, hell I even quit rotating runescape.
I'm not the best at it and use an outdated frame but I enjoy what I'm playing with my volt prime.
I remember my time in Warframe...I wasnt the greatest at it either, but when I would take a mission there was always some OP player in it taht would clear the whole thing in less than 3 minutes....I basically just looted because I couldnt even make it to the mission objective before it was over.
@AlBQuirky Argument from Anecdote Also called anecdotal argument or anecdotal evidence. It's a hard argument to move away from in many cases. It's natural to build perspective from personal experience even if contradicted by broader data, just because that data hasn't been personally experienced.
As it applies to the present conversation, I'm disinclined to offer an opinion on that part. I'd only be speaking from personal experience on that matter as well and grouping in games like ESO tends to lean towards just sprinting dailies and the other players not really mattering. I'll carry a PUG if I have to.
I don't think there's data either way, because that data doesn't directly correlate to microtransaction spending and, as such, probably isn't a high priority issue for producers or developers.
If devs got paid in terms of how often a player used a group finder, you'd bet your ass we'd have data on it. We would probably have an industry average RPR (revenue per run) already.
@AlBQuirky Argument from Anecdote Also called anecdotal argument or anecdotal evidence. It's a hard argument to move away from in many cases. It's natural to build perspective from personal experience even if contradicted by broader data, just because that data hasn't been personally experienced.
As it applies to the present conversation, I'm disinclined to offer an opinion on that part. I'd only be speaking from personal experience on that matter as well and grouping in games like ESO tends to lean towards just sprinting dailies and the other players not really mattering. I'll carry a PUG if I have to.
I don't think there's data either way, because that data doesn't directly correlate to microtransaction spending and, as such, probably isn't a high priority issue for producers or developers.
If devs got paid in terms of how often a player used a group finder, you'd bet your ass we'd have data on it. We would probably have an industry average RPR (revenue per run) already.
I was going to say that that data isn't available because management isn't concerned about it. But you're entirely right, if it doesn't directly impact income, it isn't tracked. In those cases, there is no broader data.
So, anecdotal evidence and subjective personal experiences are all we have to rely on.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Whilst I wouldn't call myself desperate, I haven't found an MMO worth my time for nearly a decade now. I keep trying out the new ones, but nothing has grabbed me. Part of that is my dislike of action combat, making most new games a no-go for me.
Part of it is simply experience. I've seen how certain designs inevitably lead to problems further down the road. So, when I see new games using the same faulty designs, I just don't bother. Given the stagnation of the genre, I basically see nothing but repeats of past mistakes. It can be really depressing at times.
What I do when I'm feeling nostalgic for the glory MMORPG days is try to examine exactly what it is im feeling nostaligic for. Then, I search out a single player game that will satisfy that feeling.
If I want a large, exciting world to explore? Well, there's a ton of action/adventure games with awesome worlds to explore.
If I want the enjoyment of long term progression? I tend to turn to survival games (like ARK) or builder games (like Planet Zoo or Cities: Skylines) as those games have long term goals that take time and dedication to reach.
If I want the intense experience of a difficult dungeon or raid? Well, I usually turn to racing games. Whilst they are completely different in terms of gameplay, they are similar in terms of intensity. Doing a 10 minute race in Project Cars requires the same sort of concentration as a 10 minute boss fight.
If I want the fun of a deep combat system? This is the hardest to achieve, as nothing in the single player world has ever come close to what I want. But, games like XCOM, or the recent Chaos Gate, are the closest I can get. They're still tactical, u still win based on decision making rather than stats or action. But, they lack the depth and speed of something like vanilla LotRO.
If I want some good PvP? Well, to be honest I play WAR RoR, the single player world obviosuly can't do PvP. But, at least playing an emulator is free!
Beyond all that, I lurk! Reading this site and MOP tends to help, both to remind how garbage current games are so that I don't waste my time on them, and to give me hope for the future.
This resonates with me almost too perfectly.
I've been floating in the twisting nether ever since Blizzard set themselves to self-destruct, and haven't found anything even remotely capable of filling that hole.
My spirits were lifted momentarily with the news of WTLK-classic, only to come crashing down even harder with the revelation that it will be implemented more like retail using a WTLK skin. I went from super-hype to a state of nauseating depression.
Sometimes I feel like I'm the only person in existence that finds this evolutionary progression into over-the-top flashy action combat unbearably disappointing, superficial, and weightless. I sorely miss practical class design and dedicated roles. I miss sensible combat environments that aren't oversaturated to the point the game becomes little more than a special effects simulator.
Similarly, I feel completely alone in thinking the best examples of class design and group dynamics were lost not long after their inception. Not one MMO I can think of that borrows from what was such a robust and reliable design.
This is what I loved so much about WoW. It was on the surface very simplistic and practical, yet there were layers of complexity hidden beneath which could give you all the gratification you deserved depending on how hard you dug.
I have come to absolutely detest class and role homogeneity. For me it has only ever translated into a sense of weightlessness and roleplaying detachment. I never felt any real sense of responsibility or pride when basically every class is capable of the same thing and can switch to any archetype at the drop of a hat. It felt hollow as you weren't really specialized in your field. Nobody can really respect that as there is no commitment involved.
Not just that but class archetypes used in WoW (at least in the three golden eras past) were so distinct yet varied in their own right. Many shared the same role yet mechanically they felt vastly different to play. This for me has always embodied the pinnacle of class design and by extension, group dynamics. It was practical, functional, accessible yet complex all at the same time and it saddens me beyond measure that not a single MMO has ever attempted to build on it or recreate it.
GW1, while not really on the same level of class purity, at least had a practical and functional design and solid group dynamics that tied everything together quite nicely. I found that enjoyable much for the same reason as WoW.
Well, such are the reasons I haven't found anything to play for over a decade now. I think the closest I came to enjoying action-based MMO was Archeage, though I suspect I was mostly just distracted by fresh concepts and the innate beauty and endearing nature of it. That was a very short-lived endeavor.
WoW: Wotlk is coming out in 8 days. compared to the trash cans you've been digging in for a new MMO, WoW will be good.
I wouldn't recommend it. I was highly anticipating its release when the original Classic servers were released years ago. The rush of players, and everyone helping each other out in the early days of it released turned into mage boosting and eventually GKDP's. The culture on the classic servers isn't what I experienced when I started playing WoW and the min/max or die culture from retail has bleed over as well. They also aren't including the RDF, which is a requirement for me since I have limited time every day to play due to real life (career and wife/kid). When fresh servers were announced I almost resubbed, but after reading up on what's been going on in the classic WoW community since I quit a few years ago, I decided against it.
Equally relatable for me.
It seems Blizzard has very little interest in recreating the tried and true classic/legacy experience as it was at its peak, but rather is making every conceivable attempt to butcher it into a reflection of what made retail so bad.
Throw in RDF, remove overbearing levels of cash-shop/RMT/Boosting integration and I would actually be happy to sub again. Though it is rather soul-crushing to realize that will never happen. If you KNOW Blizzard then you KNOW that is very much an impossibility at this point.
I would go back to Warmane, were it not for the looming sense that I am being massively held back by crippling latency. Sucks to be me I guess.
I've been floating in the twisting nether ever since Blizzard set themselves to self-destruct, and haven't found anything even remotely capable of filling that hole.
My spirits were lifted momentarily with the news of WTLK-classic, only to come crashing down even harder with the revelation that it will be implemented more like retail using a WTLK skin. I went from super-hype to a state of nauseating depression.
Sometimes I feel like I'm the only person in existence that finds this evolutionary progression into over-the-top flashy action combat unbearably disappointing, superficial, and weightless. I sorely miss practical class design and dedicated roles. I miss sensible combat environments that aren't oversaturated to the point the game becomes little more than a special effects simulator.
Similarly, I feel completely alone in thinking the best examples of class design and group dynamics were lost not long after their inception. Not one MMO I can think of that borrows from what was such a robust and reliable design.
This is what I loved so much about WoW. It was on the surface very simplistic and practical, yet there were layers of complexity hidden beneath which could give you all the gratification you deserved depending on how hard you dug.
I have come to absolutely detest class and role homogeneity. For me it has only ever translated into a sense of weightlessness and roleplaying detachment. I never felt any real sense of responsibility or pride when basically every class is capable of the same thing and can switch to any archetype at the drop of a hat. It felt hollow as you weren't really specialized in your field. Nobody can really respect that as there is no commitment involved.
Not just that but class archetypes used in WoW (at least in the three golden eras past) were so distinct yet varied in their own right. Many shared the same role yet mechanically they felt vastly different to play. This for me has always embodied the pinnacle of class design and by extension, group dynamics. It was practical, functional, accessible yet complex all at the same time and it saddens me beyond measure that not a single MMO has ever attempted to build on it or recreate it.
GW1, while not really on the same level of class purity, at least had a practical and functional design and solid group dynamics that tied everything together quite nicely. I found that enjoyable much for the same reason as WoW.
Well, such are the reasons I haven't found anything to play for over a decade now. I think the closest I came to enjoying action-based MMO was Archeage, though I suspect I was mostly just distracted by fresh concepts and the innate beauty and endearing nature of it. That was a very short-lived endeavor.
WoW: Wotlk is coming out in 8 days. compared to the trash cans you've been digging in for a new MMO, WoW will be good.
I wouldn't recommend it. I was highly anticipating its release when the original Classic servers were released years ago. The rush of players, and everyone helping each other out in the early days of it released turned into mage boosting and eventually GKDP's. The culture on the classic servers isn't what I experienced when I started playing WoW and the min/max or die culture from retail has bleed over as well. They also aren't including the RDF, which is a requirement for me since I have limited time every day to play due to real life (career and wife/kid). When fresh servers were announced I almost resubbed, but after reading up on what's been going on in the classic WoW community since I quit a few years ago, I decided against it.
Equally relatable for me.
It seems Blizzard has very little interest in recreating the tried and true classic/legacy experience as it was at its peak, but rather is making every conceivable attempt to butcher it into a reflection of what made retail so bad.
Throw in RDF, remove overbearing levels of cash-shop/RMT/Boosting integration and I would actually be happy to sub again. Though it is rather soul-crushing to realize that will never happen. If you KNOW Blizzard then you KNOW that is very much an impossibility at this point.
I would go back to Warmane, were it not for the looming sense that I am being massively held back by crippling latency. Sucks to be me I guess.
It seems to me that what games have done is over-achieve on Class Specialization. With that, and for its purpose, they overdid Class Specialization when designing content. The forced needs on player groups in their makeup, and also too tightly controlled what each player could contribute.
But I haven't played those sorts of games much, and always had problems finding groups due to elitism(?)/snobbery(?) or keeping up with guild advancement, so I don't know if my opinion is correct. Or was correct at some point.
I've been floating in the twisting nether ever since Blizzard set themselves to self-destruct, and haven't found anything even remotely capable of filling that hole.
My spirits were lifted momentarily with the news of WTLK-classic, only to come crashing down even harder with the revelation that it will be implemented more like retail using a WTLK skin. I went from super-hype to a state of nauseating depression.
Sometimes I feel like I'm the only person in existence that finds this evolutionary progression into over-the-top flashy action combat unbearably disappointing, superficial, and weightless. I sorely miss practical class design and dedicated roles. I miss sensible combat environments that aren't oversaturated to the point the game becomes little more than a special effects simulator.
Similarly, I feel completely alone in thinking the best examples of class design and group dynamics were lost not long after their inception. Not one MMO I can think of that borrows from what was such a robust and reliable design.
This is what I loved so much about WoW. It was on the surface very simplistic and practical, yet there were layers of complexity hidden beneath which could give you all the gratification you deserved depending on how hard you dug.
I have come to absolutely detest class and role homogeneity. For me it has only ever translated into a sense of weightlessness and roleplaying detachment. I never felt any real sense of responsibility or pride when basically every class is capable of the same thing and can switch to any archetype at the drop of a hat. It felt hollow as you weren't really specialized in your field. Nobody can really respect that as there is no commitment involved.
Not just that but class archetypes used in WoW (at least in the three golden eras past) were so distinct yet varied in their own right. Many shared the same role yet mechanically they felt vastly different to play. This for me has always embodied the pinnacle of class design and by extension, group dynamics. It was practical, functional, accessible yet complex all at the same time and it saddens me beyond measure that not a single MMO has ever attempted to build on it or recreate it.
GW1, while not really on the same level of class purity, at least had a practical and functional design and solid group dynamics that tied everything together quite nicely. I found that enjoyable much for the same reason as WoW.
Well, such are the reasons I haven't found anything to play for over a decade now. I think the closest I came to enjoying action-based MMO was Archeage, though I suspect I was mostly just distracted by fresh concepts and the innate beauty and endearing nature of it. That was a very short-lived endeavor.
WoW: Wotlk is coming out in 8 days. compared to the trash cans you've been digging in for a new MMO, WoW will be good.
I wouldn't recommend it. I was highly anticipating its release when the original Classic servers were released years ago. The rush of players, and everyone helping each other out in the early days of it released turned into mage boosting and eventually GKDP's. The culture on the classic servers isn't what I experienced when I started playing WoW and the min/max or die culture from retail has bleed over as well. They also aren't including the RDF, which is a requirement for me since I have limited time every day to play due to real life (career and wife/kid). When fresh servers were announced I almost resubbed, but after reading up on what's been going on in the classic WoW community since I quit a few years ago, I decided against it.
Equally relatable for me.
It seems Blizzard has very little interest in recreating the tried and true classic/legacy experience as it was at its peak, but rather is making every conceivable attempt to butcher it into a reflection of what made retail so bad.
Throw in RDF, remove overbearing levels of cash-shop/RMT/Boosting integration and I would actually be happy to sub again. Though it is rather soul-crushing to realize that will never happen. If you KNOW Blizzard then you KNOW that is very much an impossibility at this point.
I would go back to Warmane, were it not for the looming sense that I am being massively held back by crippling latency. Sucks to be me I guess.
It seems to me that what games have done is over-achieve on Class Specialization. With that, and for its purpose, they overdid Class Specialization when designing content. The forced needs on player groups in their makeup, and also too tightly controlled what each player could contribute.
But I haven't played those sorts of games much, and always had problems finding groups due to elitism(?)/snobbery(?) or keeping up with guild advancement, so I don't know if my opinion is correct. Or was correct at some point.
I'm actually dumbstruck that more people aren't bothered that you can't find any MMO's with dedicated classes/roles. All MMO's these days force hybrid playstyles on you, which I would sooner call a perversion of player freedom rather than a feature. It effectively robs you of the opportunity to focus on a particular role or playstyle and imposes a content structure dictated by that design.
I wanted to be a healer in FFXIV, but I couldn't because there is no such option. Not only does the class design prohibit it, but the content is regulated for the very purpose of being a DPS/Healer support, not a dedicated healer, which is why I picked healer to begin with.
In games like FFXIV, you can't even pretend to be a dedicated healer as you will be standing there like a stunned mullet every 20 seconds because the game is not tuned to necessitate a full-time healer, which is a concept I wholeheartedly disagree with.
Wow did it miles better imo. The game and its classes were tuned in a way that would push you to be solely focused on your role with margins often small enough that you could fail simply by not using utmost efficiency or combat awareness relative to other roles. It made your role feel important, needed, and with a dependency that you were experienced within that field. I miss that so much.
I must be alone in thinking this as so many seem unphased by it. This makes me even sadder lol.
Yeah, it is unfortunate but it seems elitism/toxicity/Gatekeeping is a general byproduct of MMO communities. I too have struggled a lot with this.
The more I play MMOs, the more I slowly begin to realize that I hate MMOs. It's a young man's game, I have a hard time finding communities or players that I want to stick around and interact with. Most of them are 20-somethings who sit around talking about anime, memes, tik-tok, etc. I'm the old guy at 33, and it's crazy to me. Besides that, I really enjoy playing on RP servers, but a vast majority of the RP done these days is people sitting around spamming ... after every sentence and waiting for their next hit of ERP. You can obviously find groups of players who aren't doing that, but the mainstays out in the open world (people you can find/casually walk up to, have a conversation with) are usually there for that purpose.
It's a mixture of the MMO genre not really doing anything new and the community being horrible. I want to find something and enjoy it like I used to. But that's never going to happen again. MMOs are old hat. They aren't as exciting as they used to be, and that's just something I have to come to terms with as well. I think a lot of old school gamers are going to have to do the same as new games come out.
It seems to me that what games have done is over-achieve on Class Specialization. With that, and for its purpose, they overdid Class Specialization when designing content. The forced needs on player groups in their makeup, and also too tightly controlled what each player could contribute.
But I haven't played those sorts of games much, and always had problems finding groups due to elitism(?)/snobbery(?) or keeping up with guild advancement, so I don't know if my opinion is correct. Or was correct at some point.
I'm actually dumbstruck that more people aren't bothered that you can't find any MMO's with dedicated classes/roles. All MMO's these days force hybrid playstyles on you, which I would sooner call a perversion of player freedom rather than a feature. It effectively robs you of the opportunity to focus on a particular role or playstyle and imposes a content structure dictated by that design.
I wanted to be a healer in FFXIV, but I couldn't because there is no such option. Not only does the class design prohibit it, but the content is regulated for the very purpose of being a DPS/Healer support, not a dedicated healer, which is why I picked healer to begin with.
In games like FFXIV, you can't even pretend to be a dedicated healer as you will be standing there like a stunned mullet every 20 seconds because the game is not tuned to necessitate a full-time healer, which is a concept I wholeheartedly disagree with.
Wow did it miles better imo. The game and its classes were tuned in a way that would push you to be solely focused on your role with margins often small enough that you could fail simply by not using utmost efficiency or combat awareness relative to other roles. It made your role feel important, needed, and with a dependency that you were experienced within that field. I miss that so much.
I must be alone in thinking this as so many seem unphased by it. This makes me even sadder lol.
Yeah, it is unfortunate but it seems elitism/toxicity/Gatekeeping is a general byproduct of MMO communities. I too have struggled a lot with this.
Then games have been changing. I do believe in roles, but I also think a good Sandbox (or any game for that matter) needs to allow players to also Solo. But Soloing should be in the same context as Group vs. World, and Soloing should be much more difficult, sooner per level or skill. Soloing should be easily viable vs. lower MOBs vs. skill, though.
I like it best when roles are needed vs more powerful MOBs or groups of equally powerful MOBs.
I'd like to see it even between same "classes." Groups of Mages is easy, spend your mana on offense or defense, but best to dedicate roles to be responsible for. Fighters is trickier. But I'm sure there's ways to accomplish that.
The more I play MMOs, the more I slowly begin to realize that I hate MMOs. It's a young man's game, I have a hard time finding communities or players that I want to stick around and interact with. Most of them are 20-somethings who sit around talking about anime, memes, tik-tok, etc. I'm the old guy at 33, and it's crazy to me. Besides that, I really enjoy playing on RP servers, but a vast majority of the RP done these days is people sitting around spamming ... after every sentence and waiting for their next hit of ERP. You can obviously find groups of players who aren't doing that, but the mainstays out in the open world (people you can find/casually walk up to, have a conversation with) are usually there for that purpose.
It's a mixture of the MMO genre not really doing anything new and the community being horrible. I want to find something and enjoy it like I used to. But that's never going to happen again. MMOs are old hat. They aren't as exciting as they used to be, and that's just something I have to come to terms with as well. I think a lot of old school gamers are going to have to do the same as new games come out.
I agree. I saw a degree of that when last I played, and I knew it was heading in that direction to get even worse.
But don't give up. Things need to change or gaming is going to continue to stagnate, and follow the slow downward trend.
No one is making a killing anymore, which they need to do or the investment money will dry up. We're seeing that already.
That's where I see Sandbox, World, and Social being the way forward. It's just no fun playing with the anti-social trends that games are on. There's other problems too, where content has gotten to be old hat.
The more I play MMOs, the more I slowly begin to realize that I hate MMOs. It's a young man's game, I have a hard time finding communities or players that I want to stick around and interact with. Most of them are 20-somethings who sit around talking about anime, memes, tik-tok, etc. I'm the old guy at 33, and it's crazy to me. Besides that, I really enjoy playing on RP servers, but a vast majority of the RP done these days is people sitting around spamming ... after every sentence and waiting for their next hit of ERP. You can obviously find groups of players who aren't doing that, but the mainstays out in the open world (people you can find/casually walk up to, have a conversation with) are usually there for that purpose.
It's a mixture of the MMO genre not really doing anything new and the community being horrible. I want to find something and enjoy it like I used to. But that's never going to happen again. MMOs are old hat. They aren't as exciting as they used to be, and that's just something I have to come to terms with as well. I think a lot of old school gamers are going to have to do the same as new games come out.
I agree. I saw a degree of that when last I played, and I knew it was heading in that direction to get even worse.
But don't give up. Things need to change or gaming is going to continue to stagnate, and follow the slow downward trend.
No one is making a killing anymore, which they need to do or the investment money will dry up. We're seeing that already.
That's where I see Sandbox, World, and Social being the way forward. It's just no fun playing with the anti-social trends that games are on. There's other problems too, where content has gotten to be old hat.
Every game I've played has had guilds which were geared towards a more 'experienced' players. Maybe just gear your guild quest towards those.
I've been floating in the twisting nether ever since Blizzard set themselves to self-destruct, and haven't found anything even remotely capable of filling that hole.
My spirits were lifted momentarily with the news of WTLK-classic, only to come crashing down even harder with the revelation that it will be implemented more like retail using a WTLK skin. I went from super-hype to a state of nauseating depression.
Sometimes I feel like I'm the only person in existence that finds this evolutionary progression into over-the-top flashy action combat unbearably disappointing, superficial, and weightless. I sorely miss practical class design and dedicated roles. I miss sensible combat environments that aren't oversaturated to the point the game becomes little more than a special effects simulator.
Similarly, I feel completely alone in thinking the best examples of class design and group dynamics were lost not long after their inception. Not one MMO I can think of that borrows from what was such a robust and reliable design.
This is what I loved so much about WoW. It was on the surface very simplistic and practical, yet there were layers of complexity hidden beneath which could give you all the gratification you deserved depending on how hard you dug.
I have come to absolutely detest class and role homogeneity. For me it has only ever translated into a sense of weightlessness and roleplaying detachment. I never felt any real sense of responsibility or pride when basically every class is capable of the same thing and can switch to any archetype at the drop of a hat. It felt hollow as you weren't really specialized in your field. Nobody can really respect that as there is no commitment involved.
Not just that but class archetypes used in WoW (at least in the three golden eras past) were so distinct yet varied in their own right. Many shared the same role yet mechanically they felt vastly different to play. This for me has always embodied the pinnacle of class design and by extension, group dynamics. It was practical, functional, accessible yet complex all at the same time and it saddens me beyond measure that not a single MMO has ever attempted to build on it or recreate it.
GW1, while not really on the same level of class purity, at least had a practical and functional design and solid group dynamics that tied everything together quite nicely. I found that enjoyable much for the same reason as WoW.
Well, such are the reasons I haven't found anything to play for over a decade now. I think the closest I came to enjoying action-based MMO was Archeage, though I suspect I was mostly just distracted by fresh concepts and the innate beauty and endearing nature of it. That was a very short-lived endeavor.
WoW: Wotlk is coming out in 8 days. compared to the trash cans you've been digging in for a new MMO, WoW will be good.
I wouldn't recommend it. I was highly anticipating its release when the original Classic servers were released years ago. The rush of players, and everyone helping each other out in the early days of it released turned into mage boosting and eventually GKDP's. The culture on the classic servers isn't what I experienced when I started playing WoW and the min/max or die culture from retail has bleed over as well. They also aren't including the RDF, which is a requirement for me since I have limited time every day to play due to real life (career and wife/kid). When fresh servers were announced I almost resubbed, but after reading up on what's been going on in the classic WoW community since I quit a few years ago, I decided against it.
Equally relatable for me.
It seems Blizzard has very little interest in recreating the tried and true classic/legacy experience as it was at its peak, but rather is making every conceivable attempt to butcher it into a reflection of what made retail so bad.
Throw in RDF, remove overbearing levels of cash-shop/RMT/Boosting integration and I would actually be happy to sub again. Though it is rather soul-crushing to realize that will never happen. If you KNOW Blizzard then you KNOW that is very much an impossibility at this point.
I would go back to Warmane, were it not for the looming sense that I am being massively held back by crippling latency. Sucks to be me I guess.
It seems to me that what games have done is over-achieve on Class Specialization. With that, and for its purpose, they overdid Class Specialization when designing content. The forced needs on player groups in their makeup, and also too tightly controlled what each player could contribute.
But I haven't played those sorts of games much, and always had problems finding groups due to elitism(?)/snobbery(?) or keeping up with guild advancement, so I don't know if my opinion is correct. Or was correct at some point.
The problem with WoW's class system was that every single class had to be soloable and really that isnt what roleplaying a class is about....
The more I play MMOs, the more I slowly begin to realize that I hate MMOs. It's a young man's game, I have a hard time finding communities or players that I want to stick around and interact with. Most of them are 20-somethings who sit around talking about anime, memes, tik-tok, etc. I'm the old guy at 33, and it's crazy to me. Besides that, I really enjoy playing on RP servers, but a vast majority of the RP done these days is people sitting around spamming ... after every sentence and waiting for their next hit of ERP. You can obviously find groups of players who aren't doing that, but the mainstays out in the open world (people you can find/casually walk up to, have a conversation with) are usually there for that purpose.
It's a mixture of the MMO genre not really doing anything new and the community being horrible. I want to find something and enjoy it like I used to. But that's never going to happen again. MMOs are old hat. They aren't as exciting as they used to be, and that's just something I have to come to terms with as well. I think a lot of old school gamers are going to have to do the same as new games come out.
I agree. I saw a degree of that when last I played, and I knew it was heading in that direction to get even worse.
But don't give up. Things need to change or gaming is going to continue to stagnate, and follow the slow downward trend.
No one is making a killing anymore, which they need to do or the investment money will dry up. We're seeing that already.
That's where I see Sandbox, World, and Social being the way forward. It's just no fun playing with the anti-social trends that games are on. There's other problems too, where content has gotten to be old hat.
Every game I've played has had guilds which were geared towards a more 'experienced' players. Maybe just gear your guild quest towards those.
I didn't start playing WoW at release. By the time I started, most guilds were full of higher levels. The "great player divide" of level power gaps hurt me in another way that everyone should be familiar with by now. I didn't play enough to keep up with the advancement of others. I always ended up having no one to play with when I joined a guild.
I've been floating in the twisting nether ever since Blizzard set themselves to self-destruct, and haven't found anything even remotely capable of filling that hole.
My spirits were lifted momentarily with the news of WTLK-classic, only to come crashing down even harder with the revelation that it will be implemented more like retail using a WTLK skin. I went from super-hype to a state of nauseating depression.
Sometimes I feel like I'm the only person in existence that finds this evolutionary progression into over-the-top flashy action combat unbearably disappointing, superficial, and weightless. I sorely miss practical class design and dedicated roles. I miss sensible combat environments that aren't oversaturated to the point the game becomes little more than a special effects simulator.
Similarly, I feel completely alone in thinking the best examples of class design and group dynamics were lost not long after their inception. Not one MMO I can think of that borrows from what was such a robust and reliable design.
This is what I loved so much about WoW. It was on the surface very simplistic and practical, yet there were layers of complexity hidden beneath which could give you all the gratification you deserved depending on how hard you dug.
I have come to absolutely detest class and role homogeneity. For me it has only ever translated into a sense of weightlessness and roleplaying detachment. I never felt any real sense of responsibility or pride when basically every class is capable of the same thing and can switch to any archetype at the drop of a hat. It felt hollow as you weren't really specialized in your field. Nobody can really respect that as there is no commitment involved.
Not just that but class archetypes used in WoW (at least in the three golden eras past) were so distinct yet varied in their own right. Many shared the same role yet mechanically they felt vastly different to play. This for me has always embodied the pinnacle of class design and by extension, group dynamics. It was practical, functional, accessible yet complex all at the same time and it saddens me beyond measure that not a single MMO has ever attempted to build on it or recreate it.
GW1, while not really on the same level of class purity, at least had a practical and functional design and solid group dynamics that tied everything together quite nicely. I found that enjoyable much for the same reason as WoW.
Well, such are the reasons I haven't found anything to play for over a decade now. I think the closest I came to enjoying action-based MMO was Archeage, though I suspect I was mostly just distracted by fresh concepts and the innate beauty and endearing nature of it. That was a very short-lived endeavor.
WoW: Wotlk is coming out in 8 days. compared to the trash cans you've been digging in for a new MMO, WoW will be good.
I wouldn't recommend it. I was highly anticipating its release when the original Classic servers were released years ago. The rush of players, and everyone helping each other out in the early days of it released turned into mage boosting and eventually GKDP's. The culture on the classic servers isn't what I experienced when I started playing WoW and the min/max or die culture from retail has bleed over as well. They also aren't including the RDF, which is a requirement for me since I have limited time every day to play due to real life (career and wife/kid). When fresh servers were announced I almost resubbed, but after reading up on what's been going on in the classic WoW community since I quit a few years ago, I decided against it.
Equally relatable for me.
It seems Blizzard has very little interest in recreating the tried and true classic/legacy experience as it was at its peak, but rather is making every conceivable attempt to butcher it into a reflection of what made retail so bad.
Throw in RDF, remove overbearing levels of cash-shop/RMT/Boosting integration and I would actually be happy to sub again. Though it is rather soul-crushing to realize that will never happen. If you KNOW Blizzard then you KNOW that is very much an impossibility at this point.
I would go back to Warmane, were it not for the looming sense that I am being massively held back by crippling latency. Sucks to be me I guess.
It seems to me that what games have done is over-achieve on Class Specialization. With that, and for its purpose, they overdid Class Specialization when designing content. The forced needs on player groups in their makeup, and also too tightly controlled what each player could contribute.
But I haven't played those sorts of games much, and always had problems finding groups due to elitism(?)/snobbery(?) or keeping up with guild advancement, so I don't know if my opinion is correct. Or was correct at some point.
The problem with WoW's class system was that every single class had to be soloable and really that isnt what roleplaying a class is about....
Maybe not, but it is what playing a character in a game world is about. To an extent, as I explained in the "What is Sandbox" thread.
Some of you people expect a game, and I and others expect a world. That seems to be a big difference in game design concepts.
Funny thing is, your "just a game" concepts are full of issues, such as "the great player divide."
Your answer, with all due respects, to the divide is Scaling, and that leads to a realization that there is no real advancement as a result, and everything is tailored to each player, with no sense of "place." No "world", just a game that's made for you to win at anything you do.
That's just not enticing to far too many players, it's rather boring in fact. No achievement, nothing to get excited about. Just push the buttons in the right order, it's a guided tour.
Some of you people expect a game, and I and others expect a world. That seems to be a big difference in game design concepts.
Some may even want a game that is both a world and a game. Imagine that...
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
I've been floating in the twisting nether ever since Blizzard set themselves to self-destruct, and haven't found anything even remotely capable of filling that hole.
My spirits were lifted momentarily with the news of WTLK-classic, only to come crashing down even harder with the revelation that it will be implemented more like retail using a WTLK skin. I went from super-hype to a state of nauseating depression.
Sometimes I feel like I'm the only person in existence that finds this evolutionary progression into over-the-top flashy action combat unbearably disappointing, superficial, and weightless. I sorely miss practical class design and dedicated roles. I miss sensible combat environments that aren't oversaturated to the point the game becomes little more than a special effects simulator.
Similarly, I feel completely alone in thinking the best examples of class design and group dynamics were lost not long after their inception. Not one MMO I can think of that borrows from what was such a robust and reliable design.
This is what I loved so much about WoW. It was on the surface very simplistic and practical, yet there were layers of complexity hidden beneath which could give you all the gratification you deserved depending on how hard you dug.
I have come to absolutely detest class and role homogeneity. For me it has only ever translated into a sense of weightlessness and roleplaying detachment. I never felt any real sense of responsibility or pride when basically every class is capable of the same thing and can switch to any archetype at the drop of a hat. It felt hollow as you weren't really specialized in your field. Nobody can really respect that as there is no commitment involved.
Not just that but class archetypes used in WoW (at least in the three golden eras past) were so distinct yet varied in their own right. Many shared the same role yet mechanically they felt vastly different to play. This for me has always embodied the pinnacle of class design and by extension, group dynamics. It was practical, functional, accessible yet complex all at the same time and it saddens me beyond measure that not a single MMO has ever attempted to build on it or recreate it.
GW1, while not really on the same level of class purity, at least had a practical and functional design and solid group dynamics that tied everything together quite nicely. I found that enjoyable much for the same reason as WoW.
Well, such are the reasons I haven't found anything to play for over a decade now. I think the closest I came to enjoying action-based MMO was Archeage, though I suspect I was mostly just distracted by fresh concepts and the innate beauty and endearing nature of it. That was a very short-lived endeavor.
WoW: Wotlk is coming out in 8 days. compared to the trash cans you've been digging in for a new MMO, WoW will be good.
I wouldn't recommend it. I was highly anticipating its release when the original Classic servers were released years ago. The rush of players, and everyone helping each other out in the early days of it released turned into mage boosting and eventually GKDP's. The culture on the classic servers isn't what I experienced when I started playing WoW and the min/max or die culture from retail has bleed over as well. They also aren't including the RDF, which is a requirement for me since I have limited time every day to play due to real life (career and wife/kid). When fresh servers were announced I almost resubbed, but after reading up on what's been going on in the classic WoW community since I quit a few years ago, I decided against it.
Equally relatable for me.
It seems Blizzard has very little interest in recreating the tried and true classic/legacy experience as it was at its peak, but rather is making every conceivable attempt to butcher it into a reflection of what made retail so bad.
Throw in RDF, remove overbearing levels of cash-shop/RMT/Boosting integration and I would actually be happy to sub again. Though it is rather soul-crushing to realize that will never happen. If you KNOW Blizzard then you KNOW that is very much an impossibility at this point.
I would go back to Warmane, were it not for the looming sense that I am being massively held back by crippling latency. Sucks to be me I guess.
It seems to me that what games have done is over-achieve on Class Specialization. With that, and for its purpose, they overdid Class Specialization when designing content. The forced needs on player groups in their makeup, and also too tightly controlled what each player could contribute.
But I haven't played those sorts of games much, and always had problems finding groups due to elitism(?)/snobbery(?) or keeping up with guild advancement, so I don't know if my opinion is correct. Or was correct at some point.
The problem with WoW's class system was that every single class had to be soloable and really that isnt what roleplaying a class is about....
Did you ever play back in the day before they changed all classes and specs to be easy to solo with? Even before WOW.
Did you play one of those specs that couldn't solo? How did that feel when you couldn't find a group but wanted to play and tried to solo?
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Some of you people expect a game, and I and others expect a world. That seems to be a big difference in game design concepts.
Some may even want a game that is both a world and a game. Imagine that...
Forsooth, mine friend, I didst not wish to telleth ye that I hadst a wish to go back to yon golden era whence upon our character's death an lightning bolt wouldst be cast over the etherial lines to our own seats, and doth kilt many an olde time gamer in pursuit of yon realismatic feel of said worlds. I hath been fortunate at yon time to have hadst mine bench broke, and escaped said tragic ending to mine own life, for I was seateth upon a big rubber beachball.
Some of you people expect a game, and I and others expect a world. That seems to be a big difference in game design concepts.
Some may even want a game that is both a world and a game. Imagine that...
Forsooth, mine friend, I didst not wish to telleth ye that I hadst a wish to go back to yon golden era whence upon our character's death an lightning bolt wouldst be cast over the etherial lines to our own seats, and doth kilt many an olde time gamer in pursuit of yon realismatic feel of said worlds. I hath been fortunate at yon time to have hadst mine bench broke, and escaped said tragic ending to mine own life, for I was seateth upon a big rubber beachball.
Truly, that was beautifully stated
For me, I want a world to "play" in, but not to "work" in. I hate cooking, so a game that "makes me" spend time cooking food, getting drinking water, and taking the time to eat and drink, I am never going to give it a try.
I liked EQ that had me just keeping stackable food and drink and every "specified time" the game consumed food and drink for me. I did not have to sit down and eat and drink. Yet, if I wanted to sit and eat and drink, I certainly could. It also had a fun crafting system for me to partake in that would allow me to create sustenance.
I don't want a "game" where in game potty breaks are mandatory, where all armor (armour for the Brits) is taken off and my avatar is "naked" for a bit of time.
Basically, there is a difference between the minutia of a "real world" and the "fun and enjoyment" of playing a "game" need to co-exist. I'm with you on a world which "makes sense" with rich lore for me discover, but it needs "playable."
Again, I liked your response and feel incapable of responding in kind
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Some of you people expect a game, and I and others expect a world. That seems to be a big difference in game design concepts.
Some may even want a game that is both a world and a game. Imagine that...
Forsooth, mine friend, I didst not wish to telleth ye that I hadst a wish to go back to yon golden era whence upon our character's death an lightning bolt wouldst be cast over the etherial lines to our own seats, and doth kilt many an olde time gamer in pursuit of yon realismatic feel of said worlds. I hath been fortunate at yon time to have hadst mine bench broke, and escaped said tragic ending to mine own life, for I was seateth upon a big rubber beachball.
Truly, that was beautifully stated
For me, I want a world to "play" in, but not to "work" in. I hate cooking, so a game that "makes me" spend time cooking food, getting drinking water, and taking the time to eat and drink, I am never going to give it a try.
I liked EQ that had me just keeping stackable food and drink and every "specified time" the game consumed food and drink for me. I did not have to sit down and eat and drink. Yet, if I wanted to sit and eat and drink, I certainly could. It also had a fun crafting system for me to partake in that would allow me to create sustenance.
I don't want a "game" where in game potty breaks are mandatory, where all armor (armour for the Brits) is taken off and my avatar is "naked" for a bit of time.
Basically, there is a difference between the minutia of a "real world" and the "fun and enjoyment" of playing a "game" need to co-exist. I'm with you on a world which "makes sense" with rich lore for me discover, but it needs "playable."
Again, I liked your response and feel incapable of responding in kind
I agree with your take on "fun and playable." I want worldly simulation, but I never wanted to have to go potty, or spend a lot of time cooking and eating. I just want things to matter for the sake of a more worldly feeling, and also the economy and player crafting expansion. (Lots of stuff to make means lots of players finding a fun little niche.)
I think there's a lot of leeway in how a game could affect things like cooking, eating and water, without turning it into a drag on player fun.
For example, if a player only had to eat once per 8 hours of game play, would that be too much? And eating being simply clicking on a food item, that's it. Think Trail Mix and water here. Cooking taking only a few seconds, maybe 10 seconds in total to gather some kindling, start a fire, and cook an item.
But then you get into weather. Shouldn't deserts require more water intake? Maybe once every hour of game play? Shouldn't icy mountain tops require more food intake in like manner? And in all, shouldn't lack of eating or drinking have only minor effects, but compounding over the hours hence? (Up to a limit.)
Immersion does not require total realism. But it helps to have something as a small reminder that things matter in some way.
From there, a game could expand if they want, into specialties such as special foods that cure diseases and poisons. Something like hassenpfeffer stew should be a special dish. Such dishes with special benefits could be used to make Taverns a more playable addition. Music, fireplaces, wines, etc., can all offer something as a benefit to players. But again, nothing big in the hack-and slash department, more so as resistances to special effects, maybe.
I am very nostalgic and that is probably why I went back to and have stayed with Rift. Admittedly it will never get another expansion, but it is comforting to know that I can stick with my playstyle and it really is free to play. My big problem is I started with mouse movement games, never played consoles and just cannot function in WASD movement environments, I like the way I have always done things (and yes I am old).
Comments
Still waiting for the "broader data" on that one.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
I remember my time in Warframe...I wasnt the greatest at it either, but when I would take a mission there was always some OP player in it taht would clear the whole thing in less than 3 minutes....I basically just looted because I couldnt even make it to the mission objective before it was over.
If devs got paid in terms of how often a player used a group finder, you'd bet your ass we'd have data on it. We would probably have an industry average RPR (revenue per run) already.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
I've been floating in the twisting nether ever since Blizzard set themselves to self-destruct, and haven't found anything even remotely capable of filling that hole.
My spirits were lifted momentarily with the news of WTLK-classic, only to come crashing down even harder with the revelation that it will be implemented more like retail using a WTLK skin. I went from super-hype to a state of nauseating depression.
Sometimes I feel like I'm the only person in existence that finds this evolutionary progression into over-the-top flashy action combat unbearably disappointing, superficial, and weightless. I sorely miss practical class design and dedicated roles. I miss sensible combat environments that aren't oversaturated to the point the game becomes little more than a special effects simulator.
Similarly, I feel completely alone in thinking the best examples of class design and group dynamics were lost not long after their inception. Not one MMO I can think of that borrows from what was such a robust and reliable design.
This is what I loved so much about WoW. It was on the surface very simplistic and practical, yet there were layers of complexity hidden beneath which could give you all the gratification you deserved depending on how hard you dug.
I have come to absolutely detest class and role homogeneity. For me it has only ever translated into a sense of weightlessness and roleplaying detachment. I never felt any real sense of responsibility or pride when basically every class is capable of the same thing and can switch to any archetype at the drop of a hat. It felt hollow as you weren't really specialized in your field. Nobody can really respect that as there is no commitment involved.
Not just that but class archetypes used in WoW (at least in the three golden eras past) were so distinct yet varied in their own right. Many shared the same role yet mechanically they felt vastly different to play. This for me has always embodied the pinnacle of class design and by extension, group dynamics. It was practical, functional, accessible yet complex all at the same time and it saddens me beyond measure that not a single MMO has ever attempted to build on it or recreate it.
GW1, while not really on the same level of class purity, at least had a practical and functional design and solid group dynamics that tied everything together quite nicely. I found that enjoyable much for the same reason as WoW.
Well, such are the reasons I haven't found anything to play for over a decade now. I think the closest I came to enjoying action-based MMO was Archeage, though I suspect I was mostly just distracted by fresh concepts and the innate beauty and endearing nature of it. That was a very short-lived endeavor.
Equally relatable for me.
It seems Blizzard has very little interest in recreating the tried and true classic/legacy experience as it was at its peak, but rather is making every conceivable attempt to butcher it into a reflection of what made retail so bad.
Throw in RDF, remove overbearing levels of cash-shop/RMT/Boosting integration and I would actually be happy to sub again. Though it is rather soul-crushing to realize that will never happen. If you KNOW Blizzard then you KNOW that is very much an impossibility at this point.
I would go back to Warmane, were it not for the looming sense that I am being massively held back by crippling latency. Sucks to be me I guess.
With that, and for its purpose, they overdid Class Specialization when designing content. The forced needs on player groups in their makeup, and also too tightly controlled what each player could contribute.
But I haven't played those sorts of games much, and always had problems finding groups due to elitism(?)/snobbery(?) or keeping up with guild advancement, so I don't know if my opinion is correct. Or was correct at some point.
Once upon a time....
I'm actually dumbstruck that more people aren't bothered that you can't find any MMO's with dedicated classes/roles. All MMO's these days force hybrid playstyles on you, which I would sooner call a perversion of player freedom rather than a feature. It effectively robs you of the opportunity to focus on a particular role or playstyle and imposes a content structure dictated by that design.
I wanted to be a healer in FFXIV, but I couldn't because there is no such option. Not only does the class design prohibit it, but the content is regulated for the very purpose of being a DPS/Healer support, not a dedicated healer, which is why I picked healer to begin with.
In games like FFXIV, you can't even pretend to be a dedicated healer as you will be standing there like a stunned mullet every 20 seconds because the game is not tuned to necessitate a full-time healer, which is a concept I wholeheartedly disagree with.
Wow did it miles better imo. The game and its classes were tuned in a way that would push you to be solely focused on your role with margins often small enough that you could fail simply by not using utmost efficiency or combat awareness relative to other roles. It made your role feel important, needed, and with a dependency that you were experienced within that field. I miss that so much.
I must be alone in thinking this as so many seem unphased by it. This makes me even sadder lol.
Yeah, it is unfortunate but it seems elitism/toxicity/Gatekeeping is a general byproduct of MMO communities. I too have struggled a lot with this.
It's a mixture of the MMO genre not really doing anything new and the community being horrible. I want to find something and enjoy it like I used to. But that's never going to happen again. MMOs are old hat. They aren't as exciting as they used to be, and that's just something I have to come to terms with as well. I think a lot of old school gamers are going to have to do the same as new games come out.
I do believe in roles, but I also think a good Sandbox (or any game for that matter) needs to allow players to also Solo. But Soloing should be in the same context as Group vs. World, and Soloing should be much more difficult, sooner per level or skill. Soloing should be easily viable vs. lower MOBs vs. skill, though.
I like it best when roles are needed vs more powerful MOBs or groups of equally powerful MOBs.
I'd like to see it even between same "classes."
Groups of Mages is easy, spend your mana on offense or defense, but best to dedicate roles to be responsible for.
Fighters is trickier. But I'm sure there's ways to accomplish that.
Once upon a time....
But don't give up. Things need to change or gaming is going to continue to stagnate, and follow the slow downward trend.
No one is making a killing anymore, which they need to do or the investment money will dry up. We're seeing that already.
That's where I see Sandbox, World, and Social being the way forward.
It's just no fun playing with the anti-social trends that games are on.
There's other problems too, where content has gotten to be old hat.
Once upon a time....
The problem with WoW's class system was that every single class had to be soloable and really that isnt what roleplaying a class is about....
The "great player divide" of level power gaps hurt me in another way that everyone should be familiar with by now. I didn't play enough to keep up with the advancement of others.
I always ended up having no one to play with when I joined a guild.
Once upon a time....
Some of you people expect a game, and I and others expect a world.
That seems to be a big difference in game design concepts.
Funny thing is, your "just a game" concepts are full of issues, such as "the great player divide."
Your answer, with all due respects, to the divide is Scaling, and that leads to a realization that there is no real advancement as a result, and everything is tailored to each player, with no sense of "place." No "world", just a game that's made for you to win at anything you do.
That's just not enticing to far too many players, it's rather boring in fact. No achievement, nothing to get excited about. Just push the buttons in the right order, it's a guided tour.
Once upon a time....
Some may even want a game that is both a world and a game. Imagine that...
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Did you play one of those specs that couldn't solo? How did that feel when you couldn't find a group but wanted to play and tried to solo?
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
I hath been fortunate at yon time to have hadst mine bench broke, and escaped said tragic ending to mine own life,
for I was seateth upon a big rubber beachball.
Once upon a time....
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
I want worldly simulation, but I never wanted to have to go potty, or spend a lot of time cooking and eating.
I just want things to matter for the sake of a more worldly feeling, and also the economy and player crafting expansion. (Lots of stuff to make means lots of players finding a fun little niche.)
I think there's a lot of leeway in how a game could affect things like cooking, eating and water, without turning it into a drag on player fun.
For example, if a player only had to eat once per 8 hours of game play, would that be too much?
And eating being simply clicking on a food item, that's it. Think Trail Mix and water here.
Cooking taking only a few seconds, maybe 10 seconds in total to gather some kindling, start a fire, and cook an item.
But then you get into weather. Shouldn't deserts require more water intake? Maybe once every hour of game play?
Shouldn't icy mountain tops require more food intake in like manner?
And in all, shouldn't lack of eating or drinking have only minor effects, but compounding over the hours hence? (Up to a limit.)
Immersion does not require total realism. But it helps to have something as a small reminder that things matter in some way.
From there, a game could expand if they want, into specialties such as special foods that cure diseases and poisons.
Something like hassenpfeffer stew should be a special dish.
Such dishes with special benefits could be used to make Taverns a more playable addition.
Music, fireplaces, wines, etc., can all offer something as a benefit to players. But again, nothing big in the hack-and slash department, more so as resistances to special effects, maybe.
Once upon a time....