I think some people have tried to commandeer old school to mean: no mounts, no teleportation, low inventory, slow run speed, slow health/mana recovery, no summons, no maps etc… Yet UO has all these QOL mechanics and it's still old school.
Even when you look at things like mana regen/stamina regen/run speed, not every class in Daoc had fast mana/stamina regen/run speed, but some classes did. So when you grouped up, you had access to that QOL feature. This is why it was more social, if you wanted access to all the QOL you just had to group up/be social. The key here is the old school games still gave customers access to the QOL features. Where the new games based on old school like Embers have removed those features where nobody gets access to any of those QOL features.
I think when people want old school, they want the QOL from games like UO combined with an immersive world, social aspects, functioning economy, new graphics and a varied challenging environment. If a game can focus on these things, it will be popular.
Well see I think this is the problem. I think the perfect MMO would blend old school and newer MMO's together in the perfect package. However, how much of a blend turns away old players. I mean on the Pantheon Discord people go freaking nuts if you mention the slightest tweak that would fundamentally make the game better and easier for new players. Ones that wouldn't even destroy what the game would be. It will still be very old school.
However, a majority say that it would ruin what Pantheon is trying to do be a true sequel to Everquest. The problem with that thinking is a sequel needs QoL improvements. It needs to evolve and change a little. Yet only a small population on that discord understand it.
I agree I think Pantheon is going down the same road as Embers did with its lack of QOL and will suffer for it.
However some new school games to me feel like I am watching a movie where my character is on autoplay. It feels like I am on a rollercoaster without much control watching the game fly by.
What exactly are the new mechanics from new school games that old school games don't have that people think is necessary other than graphics and auction house? I mentioned in previous post UO has most of the QOL issues people want. What else is there?
For the same reason people still find many other older games alluring, they possess a specific combination of traits that made that specific group of people fall in love with them not found in other games anymore. Just like many people fell in love with MMORPGs because of WoW, or ESO. It has absolutely zero to do with games becoming easier, worse or whatever makes people feel warm inside, it just was their ‘falling in love point.’ In the future many gamers will cite stuff like Destiny 2 or Elden Ring as their point.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
Even if you started with Lotro you got a lot of what those old MMOs like AC and DAOC were about. Lotro was a hybrid between the old and new MMORPGs of the time, MMOs have become such different games today that you can put the MMOs I mentioned in the same category even though they are so markedly different!
The social aspect through grouping, guild and community is the greatest loss, which slowly shifted to social media but that's not the same thing. Playing in a bubble that moves from one game to the next does not have the esprit that gaming with different guilds once had. Indeed even if you played different games with the same guild it would not always be with the same players.
But there are other strong factors factors as well, from the loss of strategy that action combat has brought in, to the overall simplification and ever easier gameplay.
I have no issue with old school at all . I can take all the harsh death penalties of Everquest circa 1999 or the no map and even the long ass walks to get anywhere but one thing I want changed the damn mana and health regeneration. That is the only complaint I have.
I guess I am averse to sitting on my arse for 20 over minutes reading a novel while I meditate or using bind wound over and over. That is my breaking point.
Generally speaking, I think the "Old School" design is only alluring to the player base they were originally designed for. There are some new gen players who enjoy them, but not in my estimation.
Games will never be the way they used to be because people are not what they used to be.
I'm not an IT Specialist, Game Developer, or Clairvoyant in real life, but like others on here, I play one on the internet.
Generally speaking, I think the "Old School" design is only alluring to the player base they were originally designed for. There are some new gen players who enjoy them, but not in my estimation.
Games will never be the way they used to be because people are not what they used to be.
But only because we are what we play, if you get fed a diet of "the modern game" (MMO executive speak) that's all you will expect from a MMO. That is why Classic WoW was started, there were customers (not players) who wanted it. This is about making games for customers, it is no longer about making the best game you possibly could and reaping the rewards if you do well.
SImply put because people with actual intelligence played those games. There wasn't hand holding. They were deep and developed by people who loved games and not by accountants. Most importantly they were actual games not real life wallet simulators. Its not surprising the younger generations don't like "old school" games, because the participation trophy winners don't know how to cope with losing or defeat or even worse...having to actually spend time learning and getting better BEFORE achieving any success.
Old school MMORPG's were actual worlds to be immersed in. Not glorified lobby style games. Old school games actually required to be be *gasp* social and know how to interact with people for the benefit of you all (group, guild, raid etc) since you couldn't do a lot of stuff solo. You don't like that there were plenty of other games that were designed to play solo like ARPG's, 1st Person Shooters, Solo RPG's and many others. MMORPG's were designed to fill the social aspect of gaming specifically where the game was a world, and everyone was intertwined and had to some degree work together to "conquer". But as soon as bean counters took over for actual gamers when it came to the development of MMORPG's the quality went down the shitter. They made the games easy enough for 3 year olds to play, or at least they make them for the current generation with the attention span of said 3 year olds. Everything became instant gratification, or if it wasn't, just open you wallet and you can instantly get what you want.
Let me be clear, that doesn't mean every aspect of newer MMORPG's are bad. Things like action combat, a mail system, shared banking space for accounts, an auction house, mounts etc are ways in which the MMORPG genre did improve some over the older games such as UO EQ DAOC. So it's not all new is bad, but challenge, requirement to work with others to do things, and lack of failure/consequences for playing bad no longer really exist and it robbed the genre of what made people want to interact and work together. Which was the whole point of MMORPG's.
Oh come on! Give me a break already. Old school MMOs weren't some masterful works of art filled with amazing worlds and storylines that were better than any other form of entertainment at the time. The worlds were immersive because it was the first time that we were able to play RPGs with other people online. I was just as immersed in Might and Magic and The Bard's Tale long before I played an MMO. And the first MUD I ever played had minimal story elements but I was still back online night after night to play.
Old MMOs didn't require some sort of genius intelligence to conquer either. The lack of a minimap or quest pointers doesn't make a game harder, it just makes it slower. Wandering the area north of town until you find the gnarled tree and then traveling west to the cave entrance isn't hard. It just takes time and patience. But as soon as you've done it once, it's pretty easy the next time. A minimap and other QoL improvements just make this process quicker.
And hand holding was still there, it just wasn't doled out by the game itself. Hand holding was done by the guilds. Back in the day, the guilds held the knowledge. They held it tight and members weren't allowed to politely give it away to strangers. But once you were accepted into a good guild, a whole new world quickly opened up. You now had all the secrets at your fingertips, others to help power level you past the boring stuff, good leveling gear was handed to you (you didn't even have to buy it from a cash shop), and raid mechanics were explained in full by experienced players.
While we're at it, let's get off our high horses about group play and how solo play has ruined MMOs. Leveling in a group with 5 other players is not much different than grinding mobs by yourself. There was community, for sure, and that community is very important, but don't think that grinding solo changes that. I spent as much time typing in guild chat as I did talking to the players I was currently grouped up with. I can do the same as I solo.
Simply put, old school MMOs aren't better than the new stuff. We blame difficulty, cash shops, and bean counters for all of the woes of modern MMOs, but the real problem is the number of online options available. And while innovation in MMOs has been stagnant for nearly two decades, other forms of online games continue to evolve and adapt, all the while stealing more and more of the online player base.
SImply put because people with actual intelligence played those games. There wasn't hand holding. They were deep and developed by people who loved games and not by accountants. Most importantly they were actual games not real life wallet simulators. Its not surprising the younger generations don't like "old school" games, because the participation trophy winners don't know how to cope with losing or defeat or even worse...having to actually spend time learning and getting better BEFORE achieving any success.
Old school MMORPG's were actual worlds to be immersed in. Not glorified lobby style games. Old school games actually required to be be *gasp* social and know how to interact with people for the benefit of you all (group, guild, raid etc) since you couldn't do a lot of stuff solo. You don't like that there were plenty of other games that were designed to play solo like ARPG's, 1st Person Shooters, Solo RPG's and many others. MMORPG's were designed to fill the social aspect of gaming specifically where the game was a world, and everyone was intertwined and had to some degree work together to "conquer". But as soon as bean counters took over for actual gamers when it came to the development of MMORPG's the quality went down the shitter. They made the games easy enough for 3 year olds to play, or at least they make them for the current generation with the attention span of said 3 year olds. Everything became instant gratification, or if it wasn't, just open you wallet and you can instantly get what you want.
Let me be clear, that doesn't mean every aspect of newer MMORPG's are bad. Things like action combat, a mail system, shared banking space for accounts, an auction house, mounts etc are ways in which the MMORPG genre did improve some over the older games such as UO EQ DAOC. So it's not all new is bad, but challenge, requirement to work with others to do things, and lack of failure/consequences for playing bad no longer really exist and it robbed the genre of what made people want to interact and work together. Which was the whole point of MMORPG's.
Oh come on! Give me a break already. Old school MMOs weren't some masterful works of art filled with amazing worlds and storylines that were better than any other form of entertainment at the time. The worlds were immersive because it was the first time that we were able to play RPGs with other people online. I was just as immersed in Might and Magic and The Bard's Tale long before I played an MMO. And the first MUD I ever played had minimal story elements but I was still back online night after night to play.
Old MMOs didn't require some sort of genius intelligence to conquer either. The lack of a minimap or quest pointers doesn't make a game harder, it just makes it slower. Wandering the area north of town until you find the gnarled tree and then traveling west to the cave entrance isn't hard. It just takes time and patience. But as soon as you've done it once, it's pretty easy the next time. A minimap and other QoL improvements just make this process quicker.
And hand holding was still there, it just wasn't doled out by the game itself. Hand holding was done by the guilds. Back in the day, the guilds held the knowledge. They held it tight and members weren't allowed to politely give it away to strangers. But once you were accepted into a good guild, a whole new world quickly opened up. You now had all the secrets at your fingertips, others to help power level you past the boring stuff, good leveling gear was handed to you (you didn't even have to buy it from a cash shop), and raid mechanics were explained in full by experienced players.
While we're at it, let's get off our high horses about group play and how solo play has ruined MMOs. Leveling in a group with 5 other players is not much different than grinding mobs by yourself. There was community, for sure, and that community is very important, but don't think that grinding solo changes that. I spent as much time typing in guild chat as I did talking to the players I was currently grouped up with. I can do the same as I solo.
Simply put, old school MMOs aren't better than the new stuff. We blame difficulty, cash shops, and bean counters for all of the woes of modern MMOs, but the real problem is the number of online options available. And while innovation in MMOs has been stagnant for nearly two decades, other forms of online games continue to evolve and adapt, all the while stealing more and more of the online player base.
Aaaaand we have a winner. We just tell ourselves all that stuff because it makes us feel better. The idea that the games ‘back in the day’ were better or more complex is idiotic at best, I was there, it is nonsense. The only thing they were is different from current day games which is fine, unless change scares you.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
Simply put, old school MMOs aren't better than the new stuff. We blame difficulty, cash shops, and bean counters for all of the woes of modern MMOs, but the real problem is the number of online options available. And while innovation in MMOs has been stagnant for nearly two decades, other forms of online games continue to evolve and adapt, all the while stealing more and more of the online player base.
So breaking this down. Your theory is that new MMO's are not popular anymore is because there are too many options? So you believe they will continue to be unpopular, because every new release will be another option further dividing the playerbase?
You dont think it has anything to do with quality of the MMO at all? Yet hundreds of millions of MMO players are sitting on the sideline completely. How does this even make sense?
I agree with a lot of what you said, I played all those games you mentioned and still do dabble with Everquest I & II, just started playing Ultima again with some old friends I used to play with, and also jump back into LOTRO where I have a Lifetime VIP account. There are also many I no longer play but the one that fits what you think should be is FF XIV, I think that they have the perfect model, it's highly able to be played Solo to a point, It also requires you to complete specific dungeons/raids which require full groups but unlike many of these new LFG (look for group) methods they have the best, you can request a dungeon run and it will automatically put together a group and drop you in, you run the dungeon and get your loot. I made many friends from these while I played FF XIV and we just went on more without needing the grouping. If new MMORPG's would use old school world design with this better grouping I think it would be better. I usually on have 2 hrs to play on the weekdays and maybe a 4 - 6 hour stretch on a weekend and this method would make for more partaking of what the devs put in.
This whole article and many of the subsequent comments seem to be based on this false supposition that the old school MMOs are dead and gone. In fact most are still online. If you think they are so much better, go play them! It's not that hard.
This whole article and many of the subsequent comments seem to be based on this false supposition that the old school MMOs are dead and gone. In fact most are still online. If you think they are so much better, go play them! It's not that hard.
When DAoC launched this was a cell phone:
Technology has changed. Not just graphics but the backends of these games are 2 decades old. In DAoC you can literally still see people flying when they run due to lag.
Also, the story parts of an MMORPG are important. When you have played that same storyline 50 times it loses much of it's luster.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
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Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
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This whole article and many of the subsequent comments seem to be based on this false supposition that the old school MMOs are dead and gone. In fact most are still online. If you think they are so much better, go play them! It's not that hard.
Do you also read the same exact book over and over again for eternity? Never gets old right, because hey nothing gets old if you like it right?
Pretty much most people that dont have some form of dementia are going to be bored after 20+ years of playing a game.
Sorry no game ever made could hold my attention that long. Maybe in the very very distant furture, but nothing exists yet.
EverQuest was my first MMO love. In 1999 people were on dial up, the notion of partying with a group of players in a fantasy setting was mostly unheard of. Each character was a locked class that had to contribute their skills towards group success as you inched along a zone together. All of this never done before in gaming to the scale that EverQuest delivered.
While today's MMOs can offer similar mechanics, most of these people long for an experience they will never have again. Because old school MMOing was a culmination of conditions from that time. Nothing short of a time machine and personal memory wipe will create that magic again.
I think people get hung up on the past too much and they don't spend enough time trying to find enjoyment in what's available now.
This most likely due to being able to burn through the content of "what's available now" in a couple of months, if that.
Classic MMORPGs used to be juggernauts with tons of content and complex systems. Sadly this also became their downfall. Games such as these became too complex, time consuming and expensive to create and maintain so companies began scaling back features. New MMORPGs are nothing new. They are just old MMORPGs with bits cut off and a cash shop shoehorned in. Big fucking whoop.
My first mmo was Anarchy Online in 2000. Back then the mmo wasn't mainstream and only PC geeks played them. The playerbase was so different back then. In Anarchy Online the weekends were very social. Every bar and nightclub would be filled with players getting to know each other. The Devs would have ingame parties that players would show up for. The game even had an a website radio service that you could play ingame. The social part of the mmo seems dead now. Older players will always have fond memories of those days. In ESO i go to an inn and never see players being social and just hanging out together.
SImply put because people with actual intelligence played those games. There wasn't hand holding. They were deep and developed by people who loved games and not by accountants. Most importantly they were actual games not real life wallet simulators. Its not surprising the younger generations don't like "old school" games, because the participation trophy winners don't know how to cope with losing or defeat or even worse...having to actually spend time learning and getting better BEFORE achieving any success.
Old school MMORPG's were actual worlds to be immersed in. Not glorified lobby style games. Old school games actually required to be be *gasp* social and know how to interact with people for the benefit of you all (group, guild, raid etc) since you couldn't do a lot of stuff solo. You don't like that there were plenty of other games that were designed to play solo like ARPG's, 1st Person Shooters, Solo RPG's and many others. MMORPG's were designed to fill the social aspect of gaming specifically where the game was a world, and everyone was intertwined and had to some degree work together to "conquer". But as soon as bean counters took over for actual gamers when it came to the development of MMORPG's the quality went down the shitter. They made the games easy enough for 3 year olds to play, or at least they make them for the current generation with the attention span of said 3 year olds. Everything became instant gratification, or if it wasn't, just open you wallet and you can instantly get what you want.
Let me be clear, that doesn't mean every aspect of newer MMORPG's are bad. Things like action combat, a mail system, shared banking space for accounts, an auction house, mounts etc are ways in which the MMORPG genre did improve some over the older games such as UO EQ DAOC. So it's not all new is bad, but challenge, requirement to work with others to do things, and lack of failure/consequences for playing bad no longer really exist and it robbed the genre of what made people want to interact and work together. Which was the whole point of MMORPG's.
Oh come on! Give me a break already. Old school MMOs weren't some masterful works of art filled with amazing worlds and storylines that were better than any other form of entertainment at the time. The worlds were immersive because it was the first time that we were able to play RPGs with other people online. I was just as immersed in Might and Magic and The Bard's Tale long before I played an MMO. And the first MUD I ever played had minimal story elements but I was still back online night after night to play.
Old MMOs didn't require some sort of genius intelligence to conquer either. The lack of a minimap or quest pointers doesn't make a game harder, it just makes it slower. Wandering the area north of town until you find the gnarled tree and then traveling west to the cave entrance isn't hard. It just takes time and patience. But as soon as you've done it once, it's pretty easy the next time. A minimap and other QoL improvements just make this process quicker.
And hand holding was still there, it just wasn't doled out by the game itself. Hand holding was done by the guilds. Back in the day, the guilds held the knowledge. They held it tight and members weren't allowed to politely give it away to strangers. But once you were accepted into a good guild, a whole new world quickly opened up. You now had all the secrets at your fingertips, others to help power level you past the boring stuff, good leveling gear was handed to you (you didn't even have to buy it from a cash shop), and raid mechanics were explained in full by experienced players.
While we're at it, let's get off our high horses about group play and how solo play has ruined MMOs. Leveling in a group with 5 other players is not much different than grinding mobs by yourself. There was community, for sure, and that community is very important, but don't think that grinding solo changes that. I spent as much time typing in guild chat as I did talking to the players I was currently grouped up with. I can do the same as I solo.
Simply put, old school MMOs aren't better than the new stuff. We blame difficulty, cash shops, and bean counters for all of the woes of modern MMOs, but the real problem is the number of online options available. And while innovation in MMOs has been stagnant for nearly two decades, other forms of online games continue to evolve and adapt, all the while stealing more and more of the online player base.
Well to me the difference here is that Raagnarz is telling us why old MMOs were better and why new MMOs are better, where as I can't see one area where Splatter thinks Old MMOs were better so it is Splatter who gets my "Oh Come On!"
Sure the newness of playing online was a huge pulling factor in the early days but that goes for FPS too, do we see a decline in online FPS, nope. Sure there are more online options available, but is any other online genre been as badly as affected by the passing of the last twenty years, nope. So this is to do with the history of MMOs and the decisions studios made, you can't get get away from that. Are the players blameless then, of course not.
You did need to put your thinking cap on back in the day to play a MMO, in fact that can be said for gaming as a whole it is not as if the MMO genre was some special case, easy-mode design has effected gaming across the board. You did not have to be a genius the problem is that as the former CEO of Electronic Arts said when he joined the company, "We want everyone and their mum to be able to play our games". Putting gaming marketing first spelled the end of grouping as even a occasional necessity and so much else in MMO-land. Dungeons are the last hold out of group play and you will see them regular attacked on here by solo players.
You were right about joining a guild but that's still a social activity right? Solo supremacy in MMOs leads no room for anything social, it was the cuckoo that forced so much gameplay out of the nest. So do you need a guild today? That's a rarity, the cuckoo will accept no challenge to ruling the nest.
Looking at what has improved, well as Slapshot alluded to, it is mostly graphics and how well the systems work. Looking at new systems that are better I would say the economic systems are far more fully rounded, if crafting and or trading are your bag that's a big plus in some MMOs. If the MMO actually supports guilds the administration of them is far better, they used to have so few features. Account sharing is good if done properly, I don't agree with an account name that all players can see for example. Other systems are rarities like WHO's "lore book", but the odd MMO does come up with them.
I think people get hung up on the past too much and they don't spend enough time trying to find enjoyment in what's available now.
This most likely due to being able to burn through the content of "what's available now" in a couple of months, if that.
Classic MMORPGs used to be juggernauts with tons of content and complex systems. Sadly this also became their downfall. Games such as these became too complex, time consuming and expensive to create and maintain so companies began scaling back features. New MMORPGs are nothing new. They are just old MMORPGs with bits cut off and a cash shop shoehorned in. Big fucking whoop.
This 100% Anarchy Online had 200 levels to get to the max and it was hella hard to do. Some said old MMOs weren't complex. They never played AO back in the day. And when you got to the point of making your own implants a mistake was bad. We didn't have websites to look up info. It had to come from ingame players.
"Why Do You Think Old-School MMO Design Is So Alluring To Fans Of The Genre Even Today?"
Please link to these thriving old school mmos to support your hypothesis of them being so alluring.
I think people have played those games and those that like these types of games (e.g. me) would like to continue experiencing the type of game play that they offer.
I did play Vanguard emulator prior to the holiday and have every intention to start again.
But if a game came along with better controls and interface, a new world, a compelling world, I'd play that.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
I think people get hung up on the past too much and they don't spend enough time trying to find enjoyment in what's available now.
This most likely due to being able to burn through the content of "what's available now" in a couple of months, if that.
Classic MMORPGs used to be juggernauts with tons of content and complex systems. Sadly this also became their downfall. Games such as these became too complex, time consuming and expensive to create and maintain so companies began scaling back features. New MMORPGs are nothing new. They are just old MMORPGs with bits cut off and a cash shop shoehorned in. Big fucking whoop.
This 100% Anarchy Online had 200 levels to get to the max and it was hella hard to do. Some said old MMOs weren't complex. They never played AO back in the day. And when you got to the point of making your own implants a mistake was bad. We didn't have websites to look up info. It had to come from ingame players.
Removing choices that a player would regret was something that they completed in what I think of as the MMO Middle Ages. The idea is that if you made a bad choice you might think of leaving the game and marketing did not want that, besides you had to think and once again no game should require you to do that.
Choosing you avatar's statistics and skills was the first to go. Then the choices you could make along the way where removed or made reversible, like a quest that made you pick a side and get bonuses from your side. Inevitably one set of bonuses would be seen as better and player regret would ensue. Then class specialization and finally actual classes were made as cookie cutter as possible. A "healer" whats that you cry? Well they do now.
SImply put because people with actual intelligence played those games. There wasn't hand holding. They were deep and developed by people who loved games and not by accountants. Most importantly they were actual games not real life wallet simulators. Its not surprising the younger generations don't like "old school" games, because the participation trophy winners don't know how to cope with losing or defeat or even worse...having to actually spend time learning and getting better BEFORE achieving any success.
Old school MMORPG's were actual worlds to be immersed in. Not glorified lobby style games. Old school games actually required to be be *gasp* social and know how to interact with people for the benefit of you all (group, guild, raid etc) since you couldn't do a lot of stuff solo. You don't like that there were plenty of other games that were designed to play solo like ARPG's, 1st Person Shooters, Solo RPG's and many others. MMORPG's were designed to fill the social aspect of gaming specifically where the game was a world, and everyone was intertwined and had to some degree work together to "conquer". But as soon as bean counters took over for actual gamers when it came to the development of MMORPG's the quality went down the shitter. They made the games easy enough for 3 year olds to play, or at least they make them for the current generation with the attention span of said 3 year olds. Everything became instant gratification, or if it wasn't, just open you wallet and you can instantly get what you want.
Let me be clear, that doesn't mean every aspect of newer MMORPG's are bad. Things like action combat, a mail system, shared banking space for accounts, an auction house, mounts etc are ways in which the MMORPG genre did improve some over the older games such as UO EQ DAOC. So it's not all new is bad, but challenge, requirement to work with others to do things, and lack of failure/consequences for playing bad no longer really exist and it robbed the genre of what made people want to interact and work together. Which was the whole point of MMORPG's.
Oh come on! Give me a break already. Old school MMOs weren't some masterful works of art filled with amazing worlds and storylines that were better than any other form of entertainment at the time. The worlds were immersive because it was the first time that we were able to play RPGs with other people online. I was just as immersed in Might and Magic and The Bard's Tale long before I played an MMO. And the first MUD I ever played had minimal story elements but I was still back online night after night to play.
Old MMOs didn't require some sort of genius intelligence to conquer either. The lack of a minimap or quest pointers doesn't make a game harder, it just makes it slower. Wandering the area north of town until you find the gnarled tree and then traveling west to the cave entrance isn't hard. It just takes time and patience. But as soon as you've done it once, it's pretty easy the next time. A minimap and other QoL improvements just make this process quicker.
And hand holding was still there, it just wasn't doled out by the game itself. Hand holding was done by the guilds. Back in the day, the guilds held the knowledge. They held it tight and members weren't allowed to politely give it away to strangers. But once you were accepted into a good guild, a whole new world quickly opened up. You now had all the secrets at your fingertips, others to help power level you past the boring stuff, good leveling gear was handed to you (you didn't even have to buy it from a cash shop), and raid mechanics were explained in full by experienced players.
While we're at it, let's get off our high horses about group play and how solo play has ruined MMOs. Leveling in a group with 5 other players is not much different than grinding mobs by yourself. There was community, for sure, and that community is very important, but don't think that grinding solo changes that. I spent as much time typing in guild chat as I did talking to the players I was currently grouped up with. I can do the same as I solo.
Simply put, old school MMOs aren't better than the new stuff. We blame difficulty, cash shops, and bean counters for all of the woes of modern MMOs, but the real problem is the number of online options available. And while innovation in MMOs has been stagnant for nearly two decades, other forms of online games continue to evolve and adapt, all the while stealing more and more of the online player base.
Your choice of "high horse" is amusing as your post is dripping of elitism and assumed authority to speak for others. If you really don't understand how quest pointers and trails dumbs down games, I don't know what to tell you. And I will never understand the supposed constitutional right people like you claim to soloing in mmorpgs. And while you "could" type in guild chat while you solo, chances are you don't or if you do, you are showing off your yahoo chat room skills and showing how clever you are and not doing anything to add to the cooperative intent of a guild.
I also find it interesting how you equate guilds teaching game lore, design, strategy, etc. to hand holding. You still had to learn, you still had to practice your role and learn the script in ways that simply don't exist anymore. And leveling in a group is much different than soloing unless the game is so poorly designed that the challenge and interaction of the group content ends up in you mindlessly spamming buttons without risk, just like the solo experience in most games today. Every time this soloing nonsense comes up I wonder if it is just a mask for people's lack of social skills and self confidence bubbling up. That, or it's just self entitled arrogance, which seems to be more likely here.
Old MMORPGS you could solo. (many did) Newish MMORPGs you can solo (many do) Not all old MMOs were tab targeting (many were) Not all new MMOs are action based (Many are) Old MMOs were not filled with complex systems New MMOs are not filled with complex systems
Old MMOS were not worlds to live in. They were a series of rooms that remained mostly empty save for the content the team wanted the player base to find. Options were plentiful and remain so for all manner of MMOs regardless of era.
I was part of that golden era of MMOs as a player with NWN and Asheron's Call and even contributed work on one of the 2nd gen entries. (Which does not grant any more opinion points just the point of experience of being there and being here)
The 'there are more options now' statement that was made earlier in the thread is a valid one because where the complete lack of ingenuity and technological advancement has stagnated the MMORPG genre it has been picked up by smaller server-based games.
Games that could not have been made in the golden era of MMORPGs (dial-up era)
The social skill requirement is more prevalent today than ever. Nearly all games are online or have an online component. From Minecraft to Fortnite to Call of Duty to Forza to Valheim to Fifa to Rainbow Six Seige to Raft to Monster Hunter to Necesse to V Rising and thousands and thousands of others, players demonstrate their social skills in gaming just fine.
The reason why old school mmorpgs are not as popular today is two reasons:
1) They are not the type of game that talented developers want to make. 2) The projects that are being worked on are recycle projects, poorly made and underfunded.
There will be a one here and a one there over the next few years but it would take advances in technology we do not have to create the 'world to live in' game that people inaccurately attribute to old mmos.
I think a lot of that ‘worlds to live in’ feeling comes from the fact that during the ‘golden era’ 95% of all games were offline, online was an actual feature, and a pretty spectacular one that made worlds, you guessed it, feel alive. These days 95% of the games has an online component and many people are actively trying to get offline more. Paradoxically, when all worlds came to live none of them felt that special anymore.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
Comments
I agree I think Pantheon is going down the same road as Embers did with its lack of QOL and will suffer for it.
However some new school games to me feel like I am watching a movie where my character is on autoplay. It feels like I am on a rollercoaster without much control watching the game fly by.
What exactly are the new mechanics from new school games that old school games don't have that people think is necessary other than graphics and auction house?
I mentioned in previous post UO has most of the QOL issues people want. What else is there?
/Cheers,
Lahnmir
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
The social aspect through grouping, guild and community is the greatest loss, which slowly shifted to social media but that's not the same thing. Playing in a bubble that moves from one game to the next does not have the esprit that gaming with different guilds once had. Indeed even if you played different games with the same guild it would not always be with the same players.
But there are other strong factors factors as well, from the loss of strategy that action combat has brought in, to the overall simplification and ever easier gameplay.
I guess I am averse to sitting on my arse for 20 over minutes reading a novel while I meditate or using bind wound over and over. That is my breaking point.
Games will never be the way they used to be because people are not what they used to be.
I'm not an IT Specialist, Game Developer, or Clairvoyant in real life, but like others on here, I play one on the internet.
Oh come on! Give me a break already. Old school MMOs weren't some masterful works of art filled with amazing worlds and storylines that were better than any other form of entertainment at the time. The worlds were immersive because it was the first time that we were able to play RPGs with other people online. I was just as immersed in Might and Magic and The Bard's Tale long before I played an MMO. And the first MUD I ever played had minimal story elements but I was still back online night after night to play.
Old MMOs didn't require some sort of genius intelligence to conquer either. The lack of a minimap or quest pointers doesn't make a game harder, it just makes it slower. Wandering the area north of town until you find the gnarled tree and then traveling west to the cave entrance isn't hard. It just takes time and patience. But as soon as you've done it once, it's pretty easy the next time. A minimap and other QoL improvements just make this process quicker.
And hand holding was still there, it just wasn't doled out by the game itself. Hand holding was done by the guilds. Back in the day, the guilds held the knowledge. They held it tight and members weren't allowed to politely give it away to strangers. But once you were accepted into a good guild, a whole new world quickly opened up. You now had all the secrets at your fingertips, others to help power level you past the boring stuff, good leveling gear was handed to you (you didn't even have to buy it from a cash shop), and raid mechanics were explained in full by experienced players.
While we're at it, let's get off our high horses about group play and how solo play has ruined MMOs. Leveling in a group with 5 other players is not much different than grinding mobs by yourself. There was community, for sure, and that community is very important, but don't think that grinding solo changes that. I spent as much time typing in guild chat as I did talking to the players I was currently grouped up with. I can do the same as I solo.
Simply put, old school MMOs aren't better than the new stuff. We blame difficulty, cash shops, and bean counters for all of the woes of modern MMOs, but the real problem is the number of online options available. And while innovation in MMOs has been stagnant for nearly two decades, other forms of online games continue to evolve and adapt, all the while stealing more and more of the online player base.
/Cheers,
Lahnmir
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
So breaking this down. Your theory is that new MMO's are not popular anymore is because there are too many options? So you believe they will continue to be unpopular, because every new release will be another option further dividing the playerbase?
You dont think it has anything to do with quality of the MMO at all? Yet hundreds of millions of MMO players are sitting on the sideline completely. How does this even make sense?
Technology has changed. Not just graphics but the backends of these games are 2 decades old. In DAoC you can literally still see people flying when they run due to lag.
Also, the story parts of an MMORPG are important. When you have played that same storyline 50 times it loses much of it's luster.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Pretty much most people that dont have some form of dementia are going to be bored after 20+ years of playing a game.
Sorry no game ever made could hold my attention that long. Maybe in the very very distant furture, but nothing exists yet.
While today's MMOs can offer similar mechanics, most of these people long for an experience they will never have again. Because old school MMOing was a culmination of conditions from that time. Nothing short of a time machine and personal memory wipe will create that magic again.
Sure the newness of playing online was a huge pulling factor in the early days but that goes for FPS too, do we see a decline in online FPS, nope. Sure there are more online options available, but is any other online genre been as badly as affected by the passing of the last twenty years, nope. So this is to do with the history of MMOs and the decisions studios made, you can't get get away from that. Are the players blameless then, of course not.
You did need to put your thinking cap on back in the day to play a MMO, in fact that can be said for gaming as a whole it is not as if the MMO genre was some special case, easy-mode design has effected gaming across the board. You did not have to be a genius the problem is that as the former CEO of Electronic Arts said when he joined the company, "We want everyone and their mum to be able to play our games". Putting gaming marketing first spelled the end of grouping as even a occasional necessity and so much else in MMO-land. Dungeons are the last hold out of group play and you will see them regular attacked on here by solo players.
You were right about joining a guild but that's still a social activity right? Solo supremacy in MMOs leads no room for anything social, it was the cuckoo that forced so much gameplay out of the nest. So do you need a guild today? That's a rarity, the cuckoo will accept no challenge to ruling the nest.
Looking at what has improved, well as Slapshot alluded to, it is mostly graphics and how well the systems work. Looking at new systems that are better I would say the economic systems are far more fully rounded, if crafting and or trading are your bag that's a big plus in some MMOs. If the MMO actually supports guilds the administration of them is far better, they used to have so few features. Account sharing is good if done properly, I don't agree with an account name that all players can see for example. Other systems are rarities like WHO's "lore book", but the odd MMO does come up with them.
Anarchy Online had 200 levels to get to the max and it was hella hard to do. Some said old MMOs weren't complex. They never played AO back in the day. And when you got to the point of making your own implants a mistake was bad. We didn't have websites to look up info. It had to come from ingame players.
I think people have played those games and those that like these types of games (e.g. me) would like to continue experiencing the type of game play that they offer.
I did play Vanguard emulator prior to the holiday and have every intention to start again.
But if a game came along with better controls and interface, a new world, a compelling world, I'd play that.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Choosing you avatar's statistics and skills was the first to go. Then the choices you could make along the way where removed or made reversible, like a quest that made you pick a side and get bonuses from your side. Inevitably one set of bonuses would be seen as better and player regret would ensue. Then class specialization and finally actual classes were made as cookie cutter as possible. A "healer" whats that you cry? Well they do now.
I also find it interesting how you equate guilds teaching game lore, design, strategy, etc. to hand holding. You still had to learn, you still had to practice your role and learn the script in ways that simply don't exist anymore. And leveling in a group is much different than soloing unless the game is so poorly designed that the challenge and interaction of the group content ends up in you mindlessly spamming buttons without risk, just like the solo experience in most games today. Every time this soloing nonsense comes up I wonder if it is just a mask for people's lack of social skills and self confidence bubbling up. That, or it's just self entitled arrogance, which seems to be more likely here.
But is it a lost art? I mean to say, the only mmorpg that I know of that people tout its realm vs realm is dark age of camelot.
if anything it seems that "exciting and well done realm vs realm" was an outlier.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다
/Cheers,
Lahnmir
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer