I'm not a real fan of P:G. It's very much an 'everybody does everything' type of game. The graphics are very substandard -- Unity store assets, and not particularly good ones at that. Buying the game is one thing, but now adding a subscription on top of that is a financial strain I don't really need. If I wanted to pay for something like this, I'd rather pick up EQ1. At least that way I could get multiple games for the price of a single subscription, and all of the games are better looking that P:G.
Developers can't afford to be altruistic. This group is discovering that the hard way. The VIP just doesn't stack up against competing alternatives.
Regardless, and as slapshot mentioned in the duplicate thread, this was already announced during the Kickstarter but for slightly less.
With the caveat that things could change from their initial VIP announcement. Seems to me they were straight shooters with what would happen.
Nothing more needs to be said.
If I were to make a game and kickstart it AND announce that once the game goes live there would be an initial $1000 fee then people should not expect anything different when it happens.
They should use their money wisely and consider not playing but they shouldn't be surprised.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
I'm not a real fan of P:G. It's very much an 'everybody does everything' type of game. The graphics are very substandard -- Unity store assets, and not particularly good ones at that. Buying the game is one thing, but now adding a subscription on top of that is a financial strain I don't really need. If I wanted to pay for something like this, I'd rather pick up EQ1. At least that way I could get multiple games for the price of a single subscription, and all of the games are better looking that P:G.
Developers can't afford to be altruistic. This group is discovering that the hard way. The VIP just doesn't stack up against competing alternatives.
Regardless, and as slapshot mentioned in the duplicate thread, this was already announced during the Kickstarter but for slightly less.
With the caveat that things could change from their initial VIP announcement. Seems to me they were straight shooters with what would happen.
Nothing more needs to be said.
If I were to make a game and kickstart it AND announce that once the game goes live there would be an initial $1000 fee then people should not expect anything different when it happens.
They should use their money wisely and consider not playing but they shouldn't be surprised.
The issue isn't the VIP only, nor announcing it. When EQ1 character models and landscape look appreciably better to me, then there's a problem. If they had bothered to upgrade the graphics, then I wouldn't have an issue with P:G. Using Unity store assets as placeholders is fine for development. Using Unity store assets in a finished game is another. Charging a subscription is a clear sign they consider the game to be in a finished state.
Evaluating the quality of graphics alone, P:G is sub-standard to similar offerings on the market. It isn't what I would expect in 2021.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Everyone here is OK now with a BTP early access indie Unity asset MMO selling in-game advantages in sub/membership form for premium/AAA MMO prices?
So if they used your prices this would be fine? I guess it would in one way, but you would then have PG looking to raise money in other ways. So I am not convinced they have got it wrong, but as I said you do not seem to get much for a subscription. So not nailing myself to either side of this debate.
My prices were just an example of what I'd be fine with paying each month cause it's very minimal and I feel for everything that is being offered that is the appropriate value.
The issue isn't the VIP only, nor announcing it. When EQ1 character models and landscape look appreciably better to me, then there's a problem. If they had bothered to upgrade the graphics, then I wouldn't have an issue with P:G. Using Unity store assets as placeholders is fine for development. Using Unity store assets in a finished game is another. Charging a subscription is a clear sign they consider the game to be in a finished state.
Evaluating the quality of graphics alone, P:G is sub-standard to similar offerings on the market. It isn't what I would expect in 2021.
hmmm I don't really agree with that.
Unless they actually came out and said "we will use unity assets only for placeholders" and then we find out that's not the case.
This is the problem with Indy games such as this, the players just don't understand what they are looking at and keep trying to cast these games in light of much higher budgeted games or games that have larger studios.
This is a game made by two people unless something has changed since the time I backed it and now.
I do know that it looks a LOT better than when I first stepped into the game. Including its optimization.
No, this game is a "we are two people we can only do what we can do so we will cut corners where we can and capitalize on our strengths" type of game.
So I guess they purchased assets. People say that. So let's say they did. Unity sells their assets so people CAN use them in their games. That's the whole idea.
I realize some people think that their only purpose is to be placeholders but nowhere do I see this except in people's opinions.
If I was a one-person developer you bet your patooty I'd be using assets in place of modeling stuff so I could leverage what I actually would bring to the table for a game.
You say it's substandard to similar offerings on the market? Ok, that might be but I don't know of many two-person developed MMORPG's so it's to those types of games I'd be comparing it to.
I wouldn't be comparing it to games that had larger studios or larger budgets.
It's a passion project and one that they hope will be shared by other players. Not much more to it.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Everyone here is OK now with a BTP early access indie Unity asset MMO selling in-game advantages in sub/membership form for premium/AAA MMO prices?
I am ok with it. This does not mean I see enough value in it though. But I am not playing the game so I am not sure if I can evaluate the sub correctly.
Appreciate the honesty of saying you don't play the game.
Let me explain how progression in this game works for those who haven't played or just played briefly.
Most unlocks and increase to character power to be able to experience higher content is done by donating specific items to NPC or selling items to NPC for in-game currency(councils). EVERY crafting skill requires massive amounts of items = massive amounts of inventory space so in reality inventory space IS what allows every character to progress. The more inventory space a character has the faster they'll progress.
EVERY extra inventory unlock in the game requires specific items to be donated to npcs ALL OVER the world. It can take you 5-20 minutes just to make a run with items to donate to a specific NPC. Some items that certain NPC require are very rare and anyone with a brain that works would not discard(throw on the ground) a very valuable donation or even high value(council) item. This means EVERYONE must collect and save valuable items in... inventory. If you ran to donate to npc all over the world everytime you got something to donate you will be running around all day long...
This game is largely an inventory management game. The amount of items a long-time player will drop on the ground especially when they're starting out before most or all extra storage is unlocked across multiple characters = hundreds of hours of gameplay when you consider the value of everything that was discarded. Some players when just starting are unaware of what items will be needed later or what items are more valuable than others so along with being given very little inventory to begin with the FOMO that comes into play at every point in the game(even high level) is unlike any other game I've ever played and is probably my least favorite part of PG.
The issue isn't the VIP only, nor announcing it. When EQ1 character models and landscape look appreciably better to me, then there's a problem. If they had bothered to upgrade the graphics, then I wouldn't have an issue with P:G. Using Unity store assets as placeholders is fine for development. Using Unity store assets in a finished game is another. Charging a subscription is a clear sign they consider the game to be in a finished state.
Evaluating the quality of graphics alone, P:G is sub-standard to similar offerings on the market. It isn't what I would expect in 2021.
hmmm I don't really agree with that.
Unless they actually came out and said "we will use unity assets only for placeholders" and then we find out that's not the case.
This is the problem with Indy games such as this, the players just don't understand what they are looking at and keep trying to cast these games in light of much higher budgeted games or games that have larger studios.
This is a game made by two people unless something has changed since the time I backed it and now.
I do know that it looks a LOT better than when I first stepped into the game. Including its optimization.
No, this game is a "we are two people we can only do what we can do so we will cut corners where we can and capitalize on our strengths" type of game.
So I guess they purchased assets. People say that. So let's say they did. Unity sells their assets so people CAN use them in their games. That's the whole idea.
I realize some people think that their only purpose is to be placeholders but nowhere do I see this except in people's opinions.
If I was a one-person developer you bet your patooty I'd be using assets in place of modeling stuff so I could leverage what I actually would bring to the table for a game.
You say it's substandard to similar offerings on the market? Ok, that might be but I don't know of many two-person developed MMORPG's so it's to those types of games I'd be comparing it to.
I wouldn't be comparing it to games that had larger studios or larger budgets.
It's a passion project and one that they hope will be shared by other players. Not much more to it.
"I realize some people think that their only purpose is to be placeholders but nowhere do I see this except in people's opinions."
They said they were placeholders. Their mods said they are placeholders. Their mod that is in my guild said they are placeholders...
How much of the game have you played? I mean no disrespect saying this but everything you wrote seems like it's written by a person who hasn't played the game much.
"This is the problem with Indy games such as this, the players just don't
understand what they are looking at and keep trying to cast these games
in light of much higher budgeted games or games that have larger
studios."
Exactly. This IS not a higher budgeted game yet they are now charging higher budgeted game prices. This is not ESO, WoW it's a Unity Asset game. Charging the same 3 Month sub price of LOTRO or DDO for just perks/temporary character boosts is slimy and I expected better from these people.
This VIP is actually more predatory than ESO Plus. I never thought I'd say that an indie game made by two people is more predatory than a mega corp AAA game but it's 2021 anything goes and here we are.
ESO gives players the option to increase inventory with in-game gold OR buy extra inventory as one-time purchases in their cash shop. The ONLY way to get these extra inventory spaces in PG is by paying them the ongoing VIP fee... you also cannot access what you put into your inventory until you pay them again...
15 slots per character x8 = 120 slots
+
75 extra shared inventory space
=
195 extra slots
that is A LOT of extra inventory even for veteran players who already have multiple bank alts.
IF a new player who already bought the base game for $30-$40 is starting out completely clueless about how inventory in the game works they might get VIP for FOMO reasons or just cause they're miserable doing inventory management all the time. THAT IMO is the most predatory part of this VIP. Designing a miserable inventory experience for new players to sell them 'relief' for a price(VIP).
IMO this was a great opportunity for them after 3 years of people extensively playing their game to do something exciting for existing and future players. They could create a few different VIP like VIP 1, 2, 3. Each one with unique perks all for a BTP DLC cost that could possibly go on sale whenever Steam has one. Instead they decided to go the other route and sell temporary monthly character boosts and collect money for a it. This VIP is just a different way of selling xp pots/boosts. For those who didn't read my previous post inventory in this game IS xp/progression.
If the $99.99 is what they really want why not offer something fun like a Lifetime Sub of VIP 1 for $99.99 as a DLC on Steam? $99.99 one-time is still 2-3x more than they make from selling their base game.
"I realize some people think that their only purpose is to be placeholders but nowhere do I see this except in people's opinions."
They said they were placeholders. Their mods said they are placeholders. Their mod that is in my guild said they are placeholders...
How much of the game have you played? I mean no disrespect saying this but everything you wrote seems like it's written by a person who hasn't played the game much.
"This is the problem with Indy games such as this, the players just don't
understand what they are looking at and keep trying to cast these games
in light of much higher budgeted games or games that have larger
studios."
Exactly. This IS not a higher budgeted game yet they are now charging higher budgeted game prices. This is not ESO, WoW it's a Unity Asset game. Charging the same 3 Month sub price of LOTRO or DDO for just perks/temporary character boosts is slimy and I expected better from these people.
This VIP is actually more predatory than ESO Plus. I never thought I'd say that an indie game made by two people is more predatory than a mega corp AAA game but it's 2021 anything goes and here we are.
ESO gives players the option to increase inventory with in-game gold OR buy extra inventory as one-time purchases in their cash shop. The ONLY way to get these extra inventory spaces in PG is by paying them the ongoing VIP fee... you also cannot access what you put into your inventory until you pay them again...
15 slots per character x8 = 120 slots
+
75 extra shared inventory space
=
195 extra slots
that is A LOT of extra inventory even for veteran players who already have multiple bank alts.
IF a new player who already bought the base game for $30-$40 is starting out completely clueless about how inventory in the game works they might get VIP for FOMO reasons or just cause they're miserable doing inventory management all the time. THAT IMO is the most predatory part of this VIP. Designing a miserable inventory experience for new players to sell them 'relief' for a price(VIP).
IMO this was a great opportunity for them after 3 years of people extensively playing their game to do something exciting for existing and future players. They could create a few different VIP like VIP 1, 2, 3. Each one with unique perks all for a BTP DLC cost that could possibly go on sale whenever Steam has one. Instead they decided to go the other route and sell temporary monthly character boosts and collect money for a it. This VIP is just a different way of selling xp pots/boosts. For those who didn't read my previous post inventory in this game IS xp/progression.
If the $99.99 is what they really want why not offer something fun like a Lifetime Sub of VIP 1 for $99.99 as a DLC on Steam? $99.99 one-time is still 2-3x more than they make from selling their base game.
So that first quote was in reference to unity assets and what some developers and players have said about them specifically Not what the developers of project Gorgon have said about them. I have not seen any quotes from Project Gorgon's devs regarding the assets and what they were to change them to.
Which is why I also said this at the start.
"Unless they actually came out and said "we will use unity assets only
for placeholders" and then we find out that's not the case."
Just to clarify.
As far as how much of the game played. I don't really know as I've only ever dropped in for a few hours at a time. Additionally, I'm not interested in its quests so for me it was just running around and exploring.
I would say I have not mastered it by any stretch of the imagination, simply been a tourist.
As far as what they are charging, it's not at all, per month equal to what a modern game charges for a sub, but it's close.
However, I don't really look at it as a qualitative comparison. There really isn't any way to measure how much more polished and expansive a game like Elder Scrolls Online is compared to project gorgon and then extrapolating some sort of reasonable charge based on that difference.
The way it is, is that Project Gorgon offers its player experience, it's developed by two people and they have determined that, with the limited amount of players they have, they need x dollars (what is it? $12 or so?) in order to be able to take the pressure off and add better development.
Project Gorgon doesn't offer better graphics or more of everything but it does offer a different experience that you won't find in many games. It's that experience that they are charging for and hoping that players will see it the same way.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
I don't see what the big deal is honestly. You can obviously still play without VIP, and it's not really very pay to win. They gotta make money somehow.
The question is what MMO is left that does not have this type of thing? If they dont have it, its become so industry standard they get ya coming or going, so why not have it as well. Leaves you with the dilemma, do you stop MMOing, or do you find the game thats lesser of the evils? Myself, I go with the lesser of evils. When they break my fun and immersion, I may stop playing MMOs.
All the complaint over the optional P:G VIP was much ado about nothing from the start. It is simply the realization of what they said they would do. I suppose people are so used to complaining when companies don't do what they say it has now bled over to when they do.
Aside from that, what could be effectively be done against it? For those that threaten to leave over it, P:G already has all you apparently wanted to contribute. They lose nothing from your departure. Any that stay but don't purchase VIP are neutral to the outcome. Any that do purchase it boost their revenue.
Essentially, the ball is in their court while those opposed don't even have a court to put a ball in if they had one.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
All the complaint over the optional P:G VIP was much ado about nothing from the start. It is simply the realization of what they said they would do. I suppose people are so used to complaining when companies don't do what they say it has now bled over to when they do.
Aside from that, what could be effectively be done against it? For those that threaten to leave over it, P:G already has all you apparently wanted to contribute. They lose nothing from your departure. Any that stay but don't purchase VIP are neutral to the outcome. Any that do purchase it boost their revenue.
Essentially, the ball is in their court while those opposed don't even have a court to put a ball in if they had one.
I'm gonna talk to the boss and see if I can't get you a raise. You've been doing great work this week.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
I started playing the game about 3,4 months ago. I started with the demo and bought the game after a few hours of play. I upgraded to VIP after a week or so. These were my reasons:
It's an indie game with a relative limited player base. So money needs to come from somewhere to keep it going, I like playing it, I want to continue playing it.
When I go the cinema 11.99 won't even get me a ticket to get through the door, not to speak of anything else. And whatever that cinema ticket costs, its for what, 2, may be 3 hours of entertainment? I spent about 30 or so hours a week if not more playing this game. So it doesn't seem expensive in comparison.
And lets keep it straight, it is NOT pay to win. You can do anything and everything without VIP subscription, no limits, no handicaps. You can not have as many alts. You are a bit more limited with inventory space. But none of that prevents you from doing any content, from doing it successfully and as well as any player with VIP.
So anybody who wants to play the game and can't afford (or doesn't want) to pay for a subscription can play it - no discrimination.
So, hm, frankly, I don't really understand what the upset is about. You don't need to buy the subscription, so just play the game without!
According to steam charts after the announcement of this optional sub fee the game has the same amount of customers now as it did then. Seems this didnt have much effect on the game at all.
May 2021 - 110.6 average users Feb 2023 - 110.9 average users
I guess that keeps the servers going, nobody getting rich off those numbers.
I started playing the game about 3,4 months ago. I started with the demo and bought the game after a few hours of play. I upgraded to VIP after a week or so. These were my reasons:
It's an indie game with a relative limited player base. So money needs to come from somewhere to keep it going, I like playing it, I want to continue playing it.
When I go the cinema 11.99 won't even get me a ticket to get through the door, not to speak of anything else. And whatever that cinema ticket costs, its for what, 2, may be 3 hours of entertainment? I spent about 30 or so hours a week if not more playing this game. So it doesn't seem expensive in comparison.
And lets keep it straight, it is NOT pay to win. You can do anything and everything without VIP subscription, no limits, no handicaps. You can not have as many alts. You are a bit more limited with inventory space. But none of that prevents you from doing any content, from doing it successfully and as well as any player with VIP.
So anybody who wants to play the game and can't afford (or doesn't want) to pay for a subscription can play it - no discrimination.
So, hm, frankly, I don't really understand what the upset is about. You don't need to buy the subscription, so just play the game without!
Comments
With the caveat that things could change from their initial VIP announcement. Seems to me they were straight shooters with what would happen.
Nothing more needs to be said.
If I were to make a game and kickstart it AND announce that once the game goes live there would be an initial $1000 fee then people should not expect anything different when it happens.
They should use their money wisely and consider not playing but they shouldn't be surprised.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
My prices were just an example of what I'd be fine with paying each month cause it's very minimal and I feel for everything that is being offered that is the appropriate value.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Aside from that, what could be effectively be done against it? For those that threaten to leave over it, P:G already has all you apparently wanted to contribute. They lose nothing from your departure. Any that stay but don't purchase VIP are neutral to the outcome. Any that do purchase it boost their revenue.
Essentially, the ball is in their court while those opposed don't even have a court to put a ball in if they had one.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
https://biturl.top/rU7bY3
Beyond the shadows there's always light
May 2021 - 110.6 average users
Feb 2023 - 110.9 average users
I guess that keeps the servers going, nobody getting rich off those numbers.