I am getting back into some MMOs I dipped into. Trying to level my old abandoned characters. The zones full of nice art and gameplay elements
Is nothing but a ghost town. A Deadzone. No life anywhere besides 1 or 2 players.
What an economical waste of development resources.
I tend to see this rapid deadzoning of leveling Zones start within a month of most modern MMO releases. People progress and move on to higher level Zones and content with little to no reason to come back besides holiday events or crafting stations.
So much wasted resources. These Zones only serve as gates for early players to level through and nothing much else.
Why are MMOs still being designed like this?
Some WOW zones are dead at the lower levels. Everyone is playing the new content / expansion. That's why I want a server merge.
Proud MMORPG.com member since March 2004! Make PvE GREAT Again!
I am getting back into some MMOs I dipped into. Trying to level my old abandoned characters. The zones full of nice art and gameplay elements
Is nothing but a ghost town. A Deadzone. No life anywhere besides 1 or 2 players.
What an economical waste of development resources.
I tend to see this rapid deadzoning of leveling Zones start within a month of most modern MMO releases. People progress and move on to higher level Zones and content with little to no reason to come back besides holiday events or crafting stations.
So much wasted resources. These Zones only serve as gates for early players to level through and nothing much else.
Why are MMOs still being designed like this?
EQ, Aion was horrible when it came to this. At least now you can get content done easier then back in the day. In older MMOs unless a game continually had an influx of new players, zones were always dead like this. Most of the content was group type content so if no one was around to help, you might as well just play something else. You had to actually schedule play times with people.
This happened to me in EQ2; I loved the game at the time, but could not progress in my main story line without grouping up. I was even in the largest guild on my server, but all of them were max level and none wanted to help with old lower level content, so I quite and never went back.
Then you have SWTOR and it's horrible design when you are actually better off most of the time having no one around due to the fact that world objects and items are a shared resource so you found yourself waiting in line for a respawn to click on something. Some of the open world content required groups of players, yet no one wanted to group with randoms so you would see established groups of player roll through and sweep content while you stood on the sidelines LFG watching them complete shit. I left that game early on as well.
Fast forward to today and you have folks who complain about MMOs that are more a solo experience, with empty zones and easy content. At least you can play the game through to it's end game.
Not every game has old zones go obolete though. Rift (in its prime) as well as old games like FFXI and Ragnarok combated this via various ways. Rift had zone events that you had to scale down to in order to get endgame currencies and sometimes green or blue gear if you were lucky, with the idea that scaling down makes it more relavent in feel to still need a large group in order to complete. FFXI also had party scaling but also had some rare monsters in those areas or highly sought after materials for various crafting recipes. Ragnarok just used the rare item method making various enemies from various zones still have value in grinding out. All of those choices were optional which I support. I know GW2 and ESO have the world scaled to you or you scale up to zones, but you honestly dont have a choice in the matter.
Fast forward to today and you have folks who complain about MMOs that are more a solo experience, with empty zones and easy content. At least you can play the game through to it's end game.
They can be largely solo if you want, or otherwise if you want.
ESO is a solo-friendly game, with even some high end content for solo play only. Regardless guilds frequently try to attract new members in zone chat in the cities, from those open to anyone to those with more specific requirements for entry. That the game can be played solo doesn't mean everyone wants to do so.
Also, ESO doesn't have empty zones as characters can't level them into obsolescence nor do new game zones make those previous redundant.
I am getting back into some MMOs I dipped into. Trying to level my old abandoned characters. The zones full of nice art and gameplay elements
Is nothing but a ghost town. A Deadzone. No life anywhere besides 1 or 2 players.
What an economical waste of development resources.
I tend to see this rapid deadzoning of leveling Zones start within a month of most modern MMO releases. People progress and move on to higher level Zones and content with little to no reason to come back besides holiday events or crafting stations.
So much wasted resources. These Zones only serve as gates for early players to level through and nothing much else.
Why are MMOs still being designed like this?
EQ, Aion was horrible when it came to this. At least now you can get content done easier then back in the day. In older MMOs unless a game continually had an influx of new players, zones were always dead like this. Most of the content was group type content so if no one was around to help, you might as well just play something else. You had to actually schedule play times with people.
This happened to me in EQ2; I loved the game at the time, but could not progress in my main story line without grouping up. I was even in the largest guild on my server, but all of them were max level and none wanted to help with old lower level content, so I quite and never went back.
Then you have SWTOR and it's horrible design when you are actually better off most of the time having no one around due to the fact that world objects and items are a shared resource so you found yourself waiting in line for a respawn to click on something. Some of the open world content required groups of players, yet no one wanted to group with randoms so you would see established groups of player roll through and sweep content while you stood on the sidelines LFG watching them complete shit. I left that game early on as well.
Fast forward to today and you have folks who complain about MMOs that are more a solo experience, with empty zones and easy content. At least you can play the game through to it's end game.
In Everquest 2 I have done most of the dungeons with my Mercenary. There's no population to speak of to group with at lower levels. This is the sad reality of a heavily structured grouping game. When the population falls the game becomes unplayable. More people leave.
All the games that feature a strong grouping mechanism are reliant on there being an optimal number of people available to group with. Once that threshold fails to materialize the game is on a downward slide to ruin. So game companies introduce methods to stop the decline like the mercenaries in EQ2.
In SWTOR I mainly played only classes capable of supporting a tank companion by healing them and completed many group quests but where possible I grouped and used it when there were times I could not find anyone. However having that option made it less likely for me to leave the game.
People do repetitive content for its rewards, no content is fun if you have to do it 20 times, if the devs decided to put decent rewards in old zones people would go there.
Endgame currencies that exist and have uses for all xpacs exist, they can very easily be implemented to be rewarded by doing content in old zones, or have an old zone have some form of daily events leading to a bigger event at the end of the week so people are there non stop for the event rewards.
But guess what happens if the rewards are too good, raidloggers and other tryhards start screaming about how they are ""forced"" to do dirty casual content and how it makes their raid rewards less relevant since their epeen will fall because god forbid you give good rewards outside of high end manual group made content
There is a way round this, you could do a late game meta quest where the early zones where invaded, needed help from a disease (you name it) and you have to return. This would be in its own shard, the zones would need changing to reflect whats happening, but that's far less work than brand new zones.
Also if the zones are small it would be helpful if they were designed in a "two directional" way like some of the zones in SWTOR. There the two sides entered from different ends and I was astonished at how much of a different feel that gave to the zone. You could still do that with larger zones, but I doubt that effect would be noticeable.
1: Levels need to be compressed so that the difference between a new character and max level character resembles that of what currently would be the difference between level 1 and level 5, or so. Darkfall Online, while skill based, is closer to something like this than what most level based games are.
It changes the dynamic a quite a bit. It allows the new players to group with the high level players right from the start and contribute, even if only a little, and when high level characters go back to "starter" areas they still have challenging combat.
2. Hubs need to serve a purpose for everyone of all levels. New player start there, old players hang out there for trade, quests, missions, recruiting, harvesting nearby, etc.
3. Areas closest to the hubs should have content for all ranges, and all areas outside of that should have small to big group content. If a larger group of starting characters wander into the most dangerous areas they should be able to organize well enough to accomplish something, and high level characters should be able to find something fun and useful to do in all areas.
I still don't get it why they waste like 60-70% of content for this. Make the leveling short like 10% of the content then move on with horizontal progression.
Like 1-3 hubs for leveling, rest is endgame with different sets/skills/cosmetics to earn.
Here is my take... A game who's leveling zones are empty is a game that is dying, and it's only a matter of how fast. Fix the real problem, not the symptom.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
I still don't get it why they waste like 60-70% of content for this. Make the leveling short like 10% of the content then move on with horizontal progression.
Like 1-3 hubs for leveling, rest is endgame with different sets/skills/cosmetics to earn.
What I think would be even better is if each ability you gain Horizontally also had a small-ish vertical progression to it. "Hubs" should be very important for a variety of things like @Child@ChildoftheShadows just said, Highlighted by me):
1: Levels need to be compressed so that the difference between a new character and max level character resembles that of what currently would be the difference between level 1 and level 5, or so. Darkfall Online, while skill based, is closer to something like this than what most level based games are.
It changes the dynamic a quite a bit. It allows the new players to group with the high level players right from the start and contribute, even if only a little, and when high level characters go back to "starter" areas they still have challenging combat.
2. Hubs need to serve a purpose for everyone of all levels. New player start there, old players hang out there for trade, quests, missions, recruiting, harvesting nearby, etc.
3. Areas closest to the hubs should have content for all ranges, and all areas outside of that should have small to big group content. If a larger group of starting characters wander into the most dangerous areas they should be able to organize well enough to accomplish something, and high level characters should be able to find something fun and useful to do in all areas.
I liked Darkfall's advancement judging from the little I played in BETA. Twice, as a newb, an advanced tester showed up in newb hunting grounds and started attacking us. There were only about 5-8 of us, and we took them down both times. One was on that cool "arrow over the hill" shot while that one tried to run, although me and another guy weren't sure which of us, or both, made the shot.
The other time was a guy that ran into a shack and tried to "jump-avoid glitch" damage. I aimed high and got him. They may have had a fix in for that just before this happened.
Here is my take... A game who's leveling zones are empty is a game that is dying, and it's only a matter of how fast. Fix the real problem, not the symptom.
I agree, If no one is playing It's not good enough to withstand the test of time.
I still don't get it why they waste like 60-70% of content for this. Make the leveling short like 10% of the content then move on with horizontal progression.
Like 1-3 hubs for leveling, rest is endgame with different sets/skills/cosmetics to earn.
and this is what has ruined the genre.....MMORPGs used to be about the journey....now it is get me to max level in an hour or I will quit. THis is why cash shops have been so prevalent...Dont want to level? Buy the XP potion in the cash shop......Cant get that great Sword of Uber killing in game? Its on sale in the cash shop!....and people wonder why these games are the way they are now.
I liked how Vanguard did it. There were high level dungeons even in low level zones. So there was a reason to come back.
In Ryzom, there are specific zones, but some of the predators in those zones are much higher than the other mobs. So you can easily kill the herbivores, and so can the predators. And, they can kill you. Plus wandering elite monsters in all zones.
I'm not a fan of ESO's One Tamriel, where every zone is the same level as you are, and they all seem the same. No way to go after a much higher area, since it all scales. Sure, you can go back to an earlier zone, and the wolves there will be exactly the same as the wolves everywhere, always. Boring.
I still don't get it why they waste like 60-70% of content for this. Make the leveling short like 10% of the content then move on with horizontal progression.
Like 1-3 hubs for leveling, rest is endgame with different sets/skills/cosmetics to earn.
and this is what has ruined the genre.....MMORPGs used to be about the journey....now it is get me to max level in an hour or I will quit. THis is why cash shops have been so prevalent...Dont want to level? Buy the XP potion in the cash shop......Cant get that great Sword of Uber killing in game? Its on sale in the cash shop!....and people wonder why these games are the way they are now.
In all fairness many players view the end game activities as the part they want to get to quickly, with little interest in grinding out levels / quests or traversing the game world, especially after their first character.
Developers well understand this so they design in monetization tricks to encourage players to keep paying
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I liked how Vanguard did it. There were high level dungeons even in low level zones. So there was a reason to come back.
In Ryzom, there are specific zones, but some of the predators in those zones are much higher than the other mobs. So you can easily kill the herbivores, and so can the predators. And, they can kill you. Plus wandering elite monsters in all zones.
I'm not a fan of ESO's One Tamriel, where every zone is the same level as you are, and they all seem the same. No way to go after a much higher area, since it all scales. Sure, you can go back to an earlier zone, and the wolves there will be exactly the same as the wolves everywhere, always. Boring.
I remember that, However I remember many long dungeons start at low level say 20 and at the end of them they would be impossible for level 40...... Always thought that was strange !
I liked how Vanguard did it. There were high level dungeons even in low level zones. So there was a reason to come back.
In Ryzom, there are specific zones, but some of the predators in those zones are much higher than the other mobs. So you can easily kill the herbivores, and so can the predators. And, they can kill you. Plus wandering elite monsters in all zones.
I'm not a fan of ESO's One Tamriel, where every zone is the same level as you are, and they all seem the same. No way to go after a much higher area, since it all scales. Sure, you can go back to an earlier zone, and the wolves there will be exactly the same as the wolves everywhere, always. Boring.
But there's no reason to play in the rest of those low level zones. No interaction with other players, division between the levels, affecting everything else like the Economy too.
In all fairness many players view the end game activities as the part they want to get to quickly, with little interest in grinding out levels / quests or traversing the game world, especially after their first character.
Developers well understand this so they design in monetization tricks to encourage players to keep paying
So Players want to skip the major part of the game because there's that "End Game" that's the carrot on the stick. And that End Game can't keep up with demand and the Players always waiting for more, or leaving for another game, or hopping around between them looking for something to do. That's not a good design, if you ask me.
and this is what has ruined the genre.....MMORPGs used to be about the journey....now it is get me to max level in an hour or I will quit. THis is why cash shops have been so prevalent...Dont want to level? Buy the XP potion in the cash shop......Cant get that great Sword of Uber killing in game? Its on sale in the cash shop!....and people wonder why these games are the way they are now.
We need that "Journey" back. We need to get rid of CSs. On top of that, we need to get rid of fixed, scriptable, content. The RMTers will be just as well off. They'll be selling less for more money and break even. But the game will be much better for that "less" in the form of no Scripting. Players playing the economic game will have a big "win" for their play style. ----
Overall, the answer seems to me to be Horizontal Progression mixed with lowER, but not "low", power gaps, in a huge world designed for exploration and DISCOVERIES.
Players who have skilled up or levelled just their Base abilities, without any added Horizontal Progression Abilities, can still play with all of the others (who have added choices through that Horizontal P).
Each horizontal gained ability should have a degree of progression. That keeps the game going with progression for a long, long time. - Exploration and Discovery add game play. - Worldly GM Events (major wars against Evil, etc.) add game play. - Some sort of controlled Warfare adds to game play. - Economy works as a simulation to "realism" and adds hugely to game play. - The World is ONE WORLD, not broken up into "zones."
I liked how Vanguard did it. There were high level dungeons even in low level zones. So there was a reason to come back.
In Ryzom, there are specific zones, but some of the predators in those zones are much higher than the other mobs. So you can easily kill the herbivores, and so can the predators. And, they can kill you. Plus wandering elite monsters in all zones.
I'm not a fan of ESO's One Tamriel, where every zone is the same level as you are, and they all seem the same. No way to go after a much higher area, since it all scales. Sure, you can go back to an earlier zone, and the wolves there will be exactly the same as the wolves everywhere, always. Boring.
But there's no reason to play in the rest of those low level zones. No interaction with other players, division between the levels, affecting everything else like the Economy too.
In all fairness many players view the end game activities as the part they want to get to quickly, with little interest in grinding out levels / quests or traversing the game world, especially after their first character.
Developers well understand this so they design in monetization tricks to encourage players to keep paying
So Players want to skip the major part of the game because there's that "End Game" that's the carrot on the stick. And that End Game can't keep up with demand and the Players always waiting for more, or leaving for another game, or hopping around between them looking for something to do. That's not a good design, if you ask me.
and this is what has ruined the genre.....MMORPGs used to be about the journey....now it is get me to max level in an hour or I will quit. THis is why cash shops have been so prevalent...Dont want to level? Buy the XP potion in the cash shop......Cant get that great Sword of Uber killing in game? Its on sale in the cash shop!....and people wonder why these games are the way they are now.
We need that "Journey" back. We need to get rid of CSs. On top of that, we need to get rid of fixed, scriptable, content. The RMTers will be just as well off. They'll be selling less for more money and break even. But the game will be much better for that "less" in the form of no Scripting. Players playing the economic game will have a big "win" for their play style. ----
Overall, the answer seems to me to be Horizontal Progression mixed with lowER, but not "low", power gaps, in a huge world designed for exploration and DISCOVERIES.
Players who have skilled up or levelled just their Base abilities, without any added Horizontal Progression Abilities, can still play with all of the others (who have added choices through that Horizontal P).
Each horizontal gained ability should have a degree of progression. That keeps the game going with progression for a long, long time. - Exploration and Discovery add game play. - Worldly GM Events (major wars against Evil, etc.) add game play. - Some sort of controlled Warfare adds to game play. - Economy works as a simulation to "realism" and adds hugely to game play. - The World is ONE WORLD, not broken up into "zones."
Or simply a larger world, beleave it or now WoW was Large world
I liked how Vanguard did it. There were high level dungeons even in low level zones. So there was a reason to come back.
In Ryzom, there are specific zones, but some of the predators in those zones are much higher than the other mobs. So you can easily kill the herbivores, and so can the predators. And, they can kill you. Plus wandering elite monsters in all zones.
I'm not a fan of ESO's One Tamriel, where every zone is the same level as you are, and they all seem the same. No way to go after a much higher area, since it all scales. Sure, you can go back to an earlier zone, and the wolves there will be exactly the same as the wolves everywhere, always. Boring.
But there's no reason to play in the rest of those low level zones. No interaction with other players, division between the levels, affecting everything else like the Economy too.
In all fairness many players view the end game activities as the part they want to get to quickly, with little interest in grinding out levels / quests or traversing the game world, especially after their first character.
Developers well understand this so they design in monetization tricks to encourage players to keep paying
So Players want to skip the major part of the game because there's that "End Game" that's the carrot on the stick. And that End Game can't keep up with demand and the Players always waiting for more, or leaving for another game, or hopping around between them looking for something to do. That's not a good design, if you ask me.
and this is what has ruined the genre.....MMORPGs used to be about the journey....now it is get me to max level in an hour or I will quit. THis is why cash shops have been so prevalent...Dont want to level? Buy the XP potion in the cash shop......Cant get that great Sword of Uber killing in game? Its on sale in the cash shop!....and people wonder why these games are the way they are now.
We need that "Journey" back. We need to get rid of CSs. On top of that, we need to get rid of fixed, scriptable, content. The RMTers will be just as well off. They'll be selling less for more money and break even. But the game will be much better for that "less" in the form of no Scripting. Players playing the economic game will have a big "win" for their play style. ----
Overall, the answer seems to me to be Horizontal Progression mixed with lowER, but not "low", power gaps, in a huge world designed for exploration and DISCOVERIES.
Players who have skilled up or levelled just their Base abilities, without any added Horizontal Progression Abilities, can still play with all of the others (who have added choices through that Horizontal P).
Each horizontal gained ability should have a degree of progression. That keeps the game going with progression for a long, long time. - Exploration and Discovery add game play. - Worldly GM Events (major wars against Evil, etc.) add game play. - Some sort of controlled Warfare adds to game play. - Economy works as a simulation to "realism" and adds hugely to game play. - The World is ONE WORLD, not broken up into "zones."
Or simply a larger world, beleave it or now WoW was Large world
Comments
Some players like it that way.
Proud MMORPG.com member since March 2004! Make PvE GREAT Again!
They can be largely solo if you want, or otherwise if you want.
ESO is a solo-friendly game, with even some high end content for solo play only. Regardless guilds frequently try to attract new members in zone chat in the cities, from those open to anyone to those with more specific requirements for entry. That the game can be played solo doesn't mean everyone wants to do so.
Also, ESO doesn't have empty zones as characters can't level them into obsolescence nor do new game zones make those previous redundant.
All the games that feature a strong grouping mechanism are reliant on there being an optimal number of people available to group with. Once that threshold fails to materialize the game is on a downward slide to ruin. So game companies introduce methods to stop the decline like the mercenaries in EQ2.
In SWTOR I mainly played only classes capable of supporting a tank companion by healing them and completed many group quests but where possible I grouped and used it when there were times I could not find anyone. However having that option made it less likely for me to leave the game.
Also if the zones are small it would be helpful if they were designed in a "two directional" way like some of the zones in SWTOR. There the two sides entered from different ends and I was astonished at how much of a different feel that gave to the zone. You could still do that with larger zones, but I doubt that effect would be noticeable.
Make the leveling short like 10% of the content then move on with horizontal progression.
Like 1-3 hubs for leveling, rest is endgame with different sets/skills/cosmetics to earn.
1997 Meridian 59 'til 2019 ESO
Waiting for Camelot Unchained & Pantheon
Just play the current one " turtle WoW". it will be the most populated for a long time.
A game who's leveling zones are empty is a game that is dying, and it's only a matter of how fast.
Fix the real problem, not the symptom.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
"Hubs" should be very important for a variety of things like @Child@ChildoftheShadows just said, Highlighted by me):
I liked Darkfall's advancement judging from the little I played in BETA.
Twice, as a newb, an advanced tester showed up in newb hunting grounds and started attacking us. There were only about 5-8 of us, and we took them down both times.
One was on that cool "arrow over the hill" shot while that one tried to run, although me and another guy weren't sure which of us, or both, made the shot.
The other time was a guy that ran into a shack and tried to "jump-avoid glitch" damage. I aimed high and got him. They may have had a fix in for that just before this happened.
Once upon a time....
and this is what has ruined the genre.....MMORPGs used to be about the journey....now it is get me to max level in an hour or I will quit. THis is why cash shops have been so prevalent...Dont want to level? Buy the XP potion in the cash shop......Cant get that great Sword of Uber killing in game? Its on sale in the cash shop!....and people wonder why these games are the way they are now.
------------
2024: 47 years on the Net.
Developers well understand this so they design in monetization tricks to encourage players to keep paying
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
However I remember many long dungeons start at low level say 20 and at the end of them they would be impossible for level 40...... Always thought that was strange !
So Players want to skip the major part of the game because there's that "End Game" that's the carrot on the stick. And that End Game can't keep up with demand and the Players always waiting for more, or leaving for another game, or hopping around between them looking for something to do.
That's not a good design, if you ask me.
We need that "Journey" back.
We need to get rid of CSs.
On top of that, we need to get rid of fixed, scriptable, content. The RMTers will be just as well off. They'll be selling less for more money and break even. But the game will be much better for that "less" in the form of no Scripting. Players playing the economic game will have a big "win" for their play style.
----
Overall, the answer seems to me to be Horizontal Progression mixed with lowER,
but not "low", power gaps, in a huge world designed for exploration and DISCOVERIES.
Players who have skilled up or levelled just their Base abilities, without any added Horizontal Progression Abilities, can still play with all of the others (who have added choices through that Horizontal P).
Each horizontal gained ability should have a degree of progression.
That keeps the game going with progression for a long, long time.
- Exploration and Discovery add game play.
- Worldly GM Events (major wars against Evil, etc.) add game play.
- Some sort of controlled Warfare adds to game play.
- Economy works as a simulation to "realism" and adds hugely to game play.
- The World is ONE WORLD, not broken up into "zones."
Once upon a time....
Once upon a time....