Advanced UO, without the Player Abuse, would be a huge thing.
There is your sticking point. Either make an MMORPG for ALL players equally, or start picking and choosing how you limit them all equally.
Every rule can be bent to one's advantage. Eventually.
Would I like to see UO part Deux? Maybe. I'm not touching a PvP game ever.
Would it be a massive hit? Highly unlikely.
Profitable? Depends on what they want to make from the game regularly.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
I fear we've long since been in the situation where developers are doing exactly what @Brainy suggests, hence why very few new MMORPGS have been made in the past 5 years or more (in the west at least) yet new games in other genres burst on the scene regularly.
What we do get are fairly generic attempts to build MMOs for the masses using designs proven to generate big revenues at minimal costs.
No you are completely wrong, if they made a game that appealed to a large audience, then it would have a large audience. The fact that these games are all small and failing is exactly the point I am making. They appeal to the extremes, which is either full EZ mode, or super hardcore.
Your example makes zero sense at all. How can you build a game that appeals to the masses and at the same time doesnt appeal to the masses. Contradictory statement. Your suggestion makes no sense due to the contradiction.
If all the games were super successful and highly rated, and had huge customer bases, then maybe your point would be valid. Instead we are seeing exactly opposite of that, which proves they are not appealling to the masses at all.
I am simply saying no the studios are not doing what I said. They are not appealing to the masses. New MMO's have very negative reviews and most have low player counts. If they were doing what I said, which was building good games for large audiences, it would be reflected with high ratings, high player counts, and money.
You cant say games like Elyon are appealing to the masses, if the game is shutting down due to lack of customers. Obviously they didnt appeal the masses or they wouldnt be shutting down.
So your theory that devs are building MMORPGS that appeal to the masses is incorrect. They might be trying, but clearly they are failing in that endeavor.
You misunderstood, they are building games for the masses, just not MMORPG's which apparently the average gamer isn't interested on playing based on all tangible evidence to date.
"Overall" gaming revenues are climbing or holding steady, some sorts of games are appealing to a huge number of players, just not MMORPGs.
Wait, make MMORPGS different, better even and they will come you say?
It already happened, hence the "evolution" of online games away from the MMORPG and into newer sub genres like BRs, MOBAs, Arena Shooters, even smaller scale survival games.
All took elements from earlier online games including MMORPGs to develop more focused styles which appealed greatly to very broad customer bases.
For an MMORPG to ever see WOW type success now would require such a radical design shift it would no longer be recognized as such, resulting yet another new sub genre in its own right.
It's been said before, remake UO into a modern new game, without substantial changes to it's original designs and it's going nowhere beyond a very small, aging niche market.
Ok I see what you were saying now, I agree they have done this to some degree outside the MMORPG space. I agree with the overall theme of your post here.
One thing I dont agree is that another MMO cant get WoW success without radical change. First just looking at WoW, we have yet to see another game that is actually better than or equal to WoW, release. Without seeing this, how can you know a better WoW type game would not bring in the exact same masses as WoW. So until I see this, I wont agree with you.
In regards to a UO replica, yeah I agree you cant replicate that and expect a successful game. You will need to update the raw concepts and remove the forced PVP.
I do think the concept of a UO openworld with skills, crafting, economy merged with some WoW PVE instances, bosses, pve raiding mechanics, and of course separate pve servers from PvP servers would be ultra successful. UO post trammel, DAOC expansions, WoW vanilla were all dancing around the edges of this model. Time will tell if anyone figures this out and puts the money and talent into a game to become the next billion dollar studio.
Get rid of Instances. That's fixed content and that's why people are tired of MMORPGs. They aren't worlds, they are the "same old thing."
A very successful MMORPG is going to need a huge world that's alive, not the same old thing. In that huge world, you can have all kinds of locations. Including places that are empty except for possible Wandering MOBs, maybe some random spawn of resources, whatever. Imagine turning your fixed Instanced content into living world content, where those "empty" spaces are filled with something special. A game where your fixed instanced content isn't a fixed, instanced quest, but rather it comes from a "find", a message, from loot or discovery.
Advanced UO, without the Player Abuse, would be a huge thing.
There is your sticking point. Either make an MMORPG for ALL players equally, or start picking and choosing how you limit them all equally.
Every rule can be bent to one's advantage. Eventually.
Would I like to see UO part Deux? Maybe. I'm not touching a PvP game ever.
Would it be a massive hit? Highly unlikely.
Profitable? Depends on what they want to make from the game regularly.
I'm thinking that limiting abusive behavior applies equally to all Players. I'm really not sure what point you are trying to make here.
If you think I want to see hidden abuses, hidden behind PR claims, like so many open world PvP games have done in the past, then you are mistaken.
I hated the abuses in UO. I saw many friends leave because of it. It destroyed the game as it could have been (without it). And I loved the rest of UO, the Sandbox world, the social atmosphere, etc. I saw the potential for great things ruined because of abusive Players.
I've promoted a number of "fixes" on these forums over the years. I've even stated that if it were my money on the line, I eliminate PvP entirely outside of Sanctioned Wars, and even that would have some limits, such as not allowed in cities.
Rule can't always be bent to an advantage. How many games that don't allow PvP outside of battle zones have that rule bent?
Edit to add: My dream game play is all about Enhanced PvE. In a World that feels alive. That includes MOBs marching om Player Built Cities, Dragon attacks, etc. It also includes deep Lore and mysteries based off of that.
I fear we've long since been in the situation where developers are doing exactly what @Brainy suggests, hence why very few new MMORPGS have been made in the past 5 years or more (in the west at least) yet new games in other genres burst on the scene regularly.
What we do get are fairly generic attempts to build MMOs for the masses using designs proven to generate big revenues at minimal costs.
No you are completely wrong, if they made a game that appealed to a large audience, then it would have a large audience. The fact that these games are all small and failing is exactly the point I am making. They appeal to the extremes, which is either full EZ mode, or super hardcore.
Your example makes zero sense at all. How can you build a game that appeals to the masses and at the same time doesnt appeal to the masses. Contradictory statement. Your suggestion makes no sense due to the contradiction.
If all the games were super successful and highly rated, and had huge customer bases, then maybe your point would be valid. Instead we are seeing exactly opposite of that, which proves they are not appealling to the masses at all.
I am simply saying no the studios are not doing what I said. They are not appealing to the masses. New MMO's have very negative reviews and most have low player counts. If they were doing what I said, which was building good games for large audiences, it would be reflected with high ratings, high player counts, and money.
You cant say games like Elyon are appealing to the masses, if the game is shutting down due to lack of customers. Obviously they didnt appeal the masses or they wouldnt be shutting down.
So your theory that devs are building MMORPGS that appeal to the masses is incorrect. They might be trying, but clearly they are failing in that endeavor.
You misunderstood, they are building games for the masses, just not MMORPG's which apparently the average gamer isn't interested on playing based on all tangible evidence to date.
"Overall" gaming revenues are climbing or holding steady, some sorts of games are appealing to a huge number of players, just not MMORPGs.
Wait, make MMORPGS different, better even and they will come you say?
It already happened, hence the "evolution" of online games away from the MMORPG and into newer sub genres like BRs, MOBAs, Arena Shooters, even smaller scale survival games.
All took elements from earlier online games including MMORPGs to develop more focused styles which appealed greatly to very broad customer bases.
For an MMORPG to ever see WOW type success now would require such a radical design shift it would no longer be recognized as such, resulting yet another new sub genre in its own right.
It's been said before, remake UO into a modern new game, without substantial changes to it's original designs and it's going nowhere beyond a very small, aging niche market.
Ok I see what you were saying now, I agree they have done this to some degree outside the MMORPG space. I agree with the overall theme of your post here.
One thing I dont agree is that another MMO cant get WoW success without radical change. First just looking at WoW, we have yet to see another game that is actually better than or equal to WoW, release. Without seeing this, how can you know a better WoW type game would not bring in the exact same masses as WoW. So until I see this, I wont agree with you.
In regards to a UO replica, yeah I agree you cant replicate that and expect a successful game. You will need to update the raw concepts and remove the forced PVP.
I do think the concept of a UO openworld with skills, crafting, economy merged with some WoW PVE instances, bosses, pve raiding mechanics, and of course separate pve servers from PvP servers would be ultra successful. UO post trammel, DAOC expansions, WoW vanilla were all dancing around the edges of this model. Time will tell if anyone figures this out and puts the money and talent into a game to become the next billion dollar studio.
I agree with the idea it would be great to see a modern version of a more open virtual world a la EVE or UO, just not really expecting any big studio to take a chance unless some smaller indie title first has a bit of a breakout hit like Valheim did.
Sadly were such a game to get started on today I could be in my mid 70s before it released should I be blessed to be healthy and live so long.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Advanced UO, without the Player Abuse, would be a huge thing.
There is your sticking point. Either make an MMORPG for ALL players equally, or start picking and choosing how you limit them all equally.
Every rule can be bent to one's advantage. Eventually.
Would I like to see UO part Deux? Maybe. I'm not touching a PvP game ever.
Would it be a massive hit? Highly unlikely.
Profitable? Depends on what they want to make from the game regularly.
I'm thinking that limiting abusive behavior applies equally to all Players. I'm really not sure what point you are trying to make here.
If you think I want to see hidden abuses, hidden behind PR claims, like so many open world PvP games have done in the past, then you are mistaken.
I hated the abuses in UO. I saw many friends leave because of it. It destroyed the game as it could have been (without it). And I loved the rest of UO, the Sandbox world, the social atmosphere, etc. I saw the potential for great things ruined because of abusive Players.
I've promoted a number of "fixes" on these forums over the years. I've even stated that if it were my money on the line, I eliminate PvP entirely outside of Sanctioned Wars, and even that would have some limits, such as not allowed in cities.
Rule can't always be bent to an advantage. How many games that don't allow PvP outside of battle zones have that rule bent?
Edit to add: My dream game play is all about Enhanced PvE. In a World that feels alive. That includes MOBs marching om Player Built Cities, Dragon attacks, etc. It also includes deep Lore and mysteries based off of that.
I'm tired of "Just Games."
I have to ask in all sincerity, why are you willing to have NPCs army's march on player built cities, but not player armies?
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Advanced UO, without the Player Abuse, would be a huge thing.
There is your sticking point. Either make an MMORPG for ALL players equally, or start picking and choosing how you limit them all equally.
Every rule can be bent to one's advantage. Eventually.
Would I like to see UO part Deux? Maybe. I'm not touching a PvP game ever.
Would it be a massive hit? Highly unlikely.
Profitable? Depends on what they want to make from the game regularly.
I'm thinking that limiting abusive behavior applies equally to all Players. I'm really not sure what point you are trying to make here.
If you think I want to see hidden abuses, hidden behind PR claims, like so many open world PvP games have done in the past, then you are mistaken.
I hated the abuses in UO. I saw many friends leave because of it. It destroyed the game as it could have been (without it). And I loved the rest of UO, the Sandbox world, the social atmosphere, etc. I saw the potential for great things ruined because of abusive Players.
I've promoted a number of "fixes" on these forums over the years. I've even stated that if it were my money on the line, I eliminate PvP entirely outside of Sanctioned Wars, and even that would have some limits, such as not allowed in cities.
Rule can't always be bent to an advantage. How many games that don't allow PvP outside of battle zones have that rule bent?
Edit to add: My dream game play is all about Enhanced PvE. In a World that feels alive. That includes MOBs marching om Player Built Cities, Dragon attacks, etc. It also includes deep Lore and mysteries based off of that.
I'm tired of "Just Games."
I have to ask in all sincerity, why are you willing to have NPCs army's march on player built cities, but not player armies?
NPC's don't grief before, during, and afterwards. Why I stopped bothering putting up bases in EvE.
I don't know about Eve, but otherwise that's partly my answer too. The main consideration is that so many gamers are against PvP interfering with their gaming under any circumstances. It's become an emotional thing.
There are other considerations, though, depending on game design. It would likely cost Player retention and initial purchase to some degree, all depending on game design and the strength of communication from the Devs.
As far as MOBs, the key there is "marching on." If MOBs just spawned on top of Players, unexpectedly, they wouldn't like that either. But if the MOBs have to travel overland to get there first, Players can go out and stop them. Failing that, at least Players have a chance to clear out if they feel they need to.
By the way, I'm talking in general here. I don't think that cities built by PvP Guilds and attacking each other harms a game in this way.
Lets go back to the real immersive style of RPG. Lets make a deep dark LOTR/D&D style RPG. Something the opposite of the current games. Even D&D online was kind of cartoony, but it did have a bit of atmosphere in the dungeons.
You're free to go where you want, like everybody else. The vast majority have chosen FFXIV and WoW so that is apparently what most want.
What most want...
Or just the best ones that happen to be around at the moment?
Or just because they have invested so much into them already because these are old MMORPG's that have been around for many years?
It doesn't seem to me that these are MMORPG's that many people actually want. It seems to me, they are just the best we have.
Nobody is holding a gun to their heads. That already invested provided the entertainment it brought at the time whether one stays with the same game or moves to another, so nothing is truly lost by switching. Those that are there want to be, especially now when there is an abundance of online gaming choices otherwise.
It is not about holding a gun to anyones head. I think you missed the point.
It is about the existing games available and how unfortunately there is not an abundance of good modern MMORPG's, and particularly ones that don't just follow the generic formula. The current ones are all old and tired, or just not actually that good. Some used to be good of course too, but are now dumbed down, and received many changes over time, but not in a positive way.
I'm advocating for a different take on MMORPG's, a different perspective, and explained why many of the more oldschool systems were succesful. So I explained a bunch of elements I think are missing, and why a lot of the more oldschool systems could actually potentially create 'better' games than what we currently have in the genre. So again it is not so much about people playing these current MMORPG's, it is about making NEW games that could be even more fun than those using what we have learned.
I'd rather play new fresh takes that improve and have more fun experiences, than be playing the same game for over 15 years that got dumbed down over time.
You seem to think that the current large MMORPG's are what everyone wants... The vast majority of players don't actually know what they want, and you can bet their ass if a more fun game comes along they will play it. And so what I'm arguing for is that they might be surprised by an MMORPG's with a more oldschool take.
I explained why I think this is the fact, and how you can see it happening in other genre's a lot.
How many good modern MMORPGs there are and which ones they are depends on who you're talking to. That is the point each and every time this issue is raised.
I know that each droning voice of complaint expressed over the dearth of games in forums is matched by at least one not heard because that person is too busy spending their time on the game they enjoy rather than lamenting here.
While discontent is often shouted satisfaction is often silent.
I think people are capable of determining what they want for themselves. They certainly better know what they want than you do. The only wants you are qualified to speak on are your own. What you are hoping is that if people see what you want they will magically want it as well.
Build your diamond then, and see if they will come. We'll see if it turns into the field of dreams you imagine. Just remember that such a field already existed and was largely abandoned in the past so don't get your hopes up too high for many to be rushing back to a similar one in the future.
I fear we've long since been in the situation where developers are doing exactly what @Brainy suggests, hence why very few new MMORPGS have been made in the past 5 years or more (in the west at least) yet new games in other genres burst on the scene regularly.
What we do get are fairly generic attempts to build MMOs for the masses using designs proven to generate big revenues at minimal costs.
No you are completely wrong, if they made a game that appealed to a large audience, then it would have a large audience. The fact that these games are all small and failing is exactly the point I am making. They appeal to the extremes, which is either full EZ mode, or super hardcore.
Your example makes zero sense at all. How can you build a game that appeals to the masses and at the same time doesnt appeal to the masses. Contradictory statement. Your suggestion makes no sense due to the contradiction.
If all the games were super successful and highly rated, and had huge customer bases, then maybe your point would be valid. Instead we are seeing exactly opposite of that, which proves they are not appealling to the masses at all.
I am simply saying no the studios are not doing what I said. They are not appealing to the masses. New MMO's have very negative reviews and most have low player counts. If they were doing what I said, which was building good games for large audiences, it would be reflected with high ratings, high player counts, and money.
You cant say games like Elyon are appealing to the masses, if the game is shutting down due to lack of customers. Obviously they didnt appeal the masses or they wouldnt be shutting down.
So your theory that devs are building MMORPGS that appeal to the masses is incorrect. They might be trying, but clearly they are failing in that endeavor.
You misunderstood, they are building games for the masses, just not MMORPG's which apparently the average gamer isn't interested on playing based on all tangible evidence to date.
"Overall" gaming revenues are climbing or holding steady, some sorts of games are appealing to a huge number of players, just not MMORPGs.
Wait, make MMORPGS different, better even and they will come you say?
It already happened, hence the "evolution" of online games away from the MMORPG and into newer sub genres like BRs, MOBAs, Arena Shooters, even smaller scale survival games.
All took elements from earlier online games including MMORPGs to develop more focused styles which appealed greatly to very broad customer bases.
For an MMORPG to ever see WOW type success now would require such a radical design shift it would no longer be recognized as such, resulting yet another new sub genre in its own right.
It's been said before, remake UO into a modern new game, without substantial changes to it's original designs and it's going nowhere beyond a very small, aging niche market.
Ok I see what you were saying now, I agree they have done this to some degree outside the MMORPG space. I agree with the overall theme of your post here.
One thing I dont agree is that another MMO cant get WoW success without radical change. First just looking at WoW, we have yet to see another game that is actually better than or equal to WoW, release. Without seeing this, how can you know a better WoW type game would not bring in the exact same masses as WoW. So until I see this, I wont agree with you.
In regards to a UO replica, yeah I agree you cant replicate that and expect a successful game. You will need to update the raw concepts and remove the forced PVP.
I do think the concept of a UO openworld with skills, crafting, economy merged with some WoW PVE instances, bosses, pve raiding mechanics, and of course separate pve servers from PvP servers would be ultra successful. UO post trammel, DAOC expansions, WoW vanilla were all dancing around the edges of this model. Time will tell if anyone figures this out and puts the money and talent into a game to become the next billion dollar studio.
I agree with the idea it would be great to see a modern version of a more open virtual world a la EVE or UO, just not really expecting any big studio to take a chance unless some smaller indie title first has a bit of a breakout hit like Valheim did.
Sadly were such a game to get started on today I could be in my mid 70s before it released should I be blessed to be healthy and live so long.
That's the thing. A large studio won't take that chance as there is no reason to expect there would be enough players interested for the revenue potential to be worth the bother. Every recent attempt to offer MMORPGs with old school elements has gone poorly. The older games still in operation don't draw many players in. No large company looking at that reality is going the roll the dice on such a project.
Only the smaller companies are open to that kind of risk, and there lack of resources are going to make any game they produce for short of modern expectations. As a result such games will tend to get few players and the large companies will see the results and have their prudence in avoiding such games confirmed.
Players just expressing the desire for such games won't motivate larger companies to provide them. That interest has to first be demonstrated before they will bite. Likely the best way to inspire the making of new games like those in the past is for players to collectively play those remaining games of the past even if those titles are no longer at their prime. With enough doing so perhaps market interest will be noticed and then accommodated.
Get rid of Instances. That's fixed content and that's why people are tired of MMORPGs. They aren't worlds, they are the "same old thing."
A very successful MMORPG is going to need a huge world that's alive, not the same old thing. In that huge world, you can have all kinds of locations. Including places that are empty except for possible Wandering MOBs, maybe some random spawn of resources, whatever. Imagine turning your fixed Instanced content into living world content, where those "empty" spaces are filled with something special. A game where your fixed instanced content isn't a fixed, instanced quest, but rather it comes from a "find", a message, from loot or discovery.
Create "Worlds" again, not just games.
Nah I will keep the main dungeon boss instances, epic dungeon instances, and world boss instances.
Thinking a world without instances is just someones utopia. In reality when you put other players into the mix there is always going to be problems. Boss camping Dungeon camping Chest camping Rare mob camping 1 guy tagging a world boss and running it around the zone for 30 minutes while his guild logs in. People training mobs while you on the boss Going all the way across the zone to a dungeon with a group of friends only to find the dungeon is cleared. Only the top guild gets every world boss because they have people sitting on boss watch rotations Multiple groups fighting for the same dungeon spots Groups stealing the boss kill after you clear the entire dungeon etc...
Yeah no thanks, I dont have time or patience for all that. When me and my friends log in, we want to have fun. We dont want all these issues interferring with that. I also want to experience the content of the game and I dont want to have to play 16 hours a day for a year just to have a shot at a boss kill.
Advanced UO, without the Player Abuse, would be a huge thing.
There is your sticking point. Either make an MMORPG for ALL players equally, or start picking and choosing how you limit them all equally.
Every rule can be bent to one's advantage. Eventually.
Would I like to see UO part Deux? Maybe. I'm not touching a PvP game ever.
Would it be a massive hit? Highly unlikely.
Profitable? Depends on what they want to make from the game regularly.
I'm thinking that limiting abusive behavior applies equally to all Players. I'm really not sure what point you are trying to make here.
If you think I want to see hidden abuses, hidden behind PR claims, like so many open world PvP games have done in the past, then you are mistaken.
I hated the abuses in UO. I saw many friends leave because of it. It destroyed the game as it could have been (without it). And I loved the rest of UO, the Sandbox world, the social atmosphere, etc. I saw the potential for great things ruined because of abusive Players.
I've promoted a number of "fixes" on these forums over the years. I've even stated that if it were my money on the line, I eliminate PvP entirely outside of Sanctioned Wars, and even that would have some limits, such as not allowed in cities.
Rule can't always be bent to an advantage. How many games that don't allow PvP outside of battle zones have that rule bent?
Edit to add: My dream game play is all about Enhanced PvE. In a World that feels alive. That includes MOBs marching om Player Built Cities, Dragon attacks, etc. It also includes deep Lore and mysteries based off of that.
I'm tired of "Just Games."
I have to ask in all sincerity, why are you willing to have NPCs army's march on player built cities, but not player armies?
NPC's don't grief before, during, and afterwards. Why I stopped bothering putting up bases in EvE.
Apparently you never had a Sleeper Dreadnaught drop on top of your mining fleet in a nullsec asteroid belt.
Point being, NPCs could very easily be set to do all of the things players do to make the overall gaming experience unpleasant.
So what people are really saying is they don't mind their bases being attacked as long as there is little to no chance of losing.
So I put forth, what is the point of the NPC attack in the first place, just skip the whole thing and leave my base in peace.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I can totally accept an NPC killing and taking my shit. A real player no, no no!!! Yeah I cannot explain it but a real life person would gloat and make me feel hurt but NPCs cannot do that.
Edit to add: My dream game play is all about Enhanced PvE. In a World that feels alive. That includes MOBs marching om Player Built Cities, Dragon attacks, etc. It also includes deep Lore and mysteries based off of that.
I'm tired of "Just Games."
while not my "dream game" I've absolutely love a game where pve npc's/monsters marched on cities and actually could take them.
People want a quest? The quest would be to sneak in (or liberate the city) in order to get your stuff.
But most people wouldn't like that. I remember someone complaining in Rift that an invasion was keeping them from "questing."
ugh.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Edit to add: My dream game play is all about Enhanced PvE. In a World that feels alive. That includes MOBs marching om Player Built Cities, Dragon attacks, etc. It also includes deep Lore and mysteries based off of that.
I'm tired of "Just Games."
while not my "dream game" I've absolutely love a game where pve npc's/monsters marched on cities and actually could take them.
People want a quest? The quest would be to sneak in (or liberate the city) in order to get your stuff.
But most people wouldn't like that. I remember someone complaining in Rift that an invasion was keeping them from "questing."
ugh.
That happened when there were no longer enough players to clear the mobs in the rift and you would be stuck in the inn while trying to pelt a few. Anyone would be justifiably angry when the game did not tailor the rift down. I think they did do that when the game's population got scarily scarce.
I can totally accept an NPC killing and taking my shit. A real player no, no no!!! Yeah I cannot explain it but a real life person would gloat and make me feel hurt but NPCs cannot do that.
It seems to me that the problem is that Players who do that will do it a lot and the gloating highlights the fact that you can't do anything about it. They don't play "fair", they use numbers and trick ambushes and anything else, and you can't win in the big picture. Players (most) don't mind losing a battle (NPCs and game design), but they do mind losing an unfair war (the typical gank setup and repetition).
Edit to add: My dream game play is all about Enhanced PvE. In a World that feels alive. That includes MOBs marching om Player Built Cities, Dragon attacks, etc. It also includes deep Lore and mysteries based off of that.
I'm tired of "Just Games."
while not my "dream game" I've absolutely love a game where pve npc's/monsters marched on cities and actually could take them.
People want a quest? The quest would be to sneak in (or liberate the city) in order to get your stuff.
But most people wouldn't like that. I remember someone complaining in Rift that an invasion was keeping them from "questing."
ugh.
That happened when there were no longer enough players to clear the mobs in the rift and you would be stuck in the inn while trying to pelt a few. Anyone would be justifiably angry when the game did not tailor the rift down. I think they did do that when the game's population got scarily scarce.
Except that ..is exactly how EVE worked in null sec, if your corporation or alliance didn't have enough defenders to eject the player attackers your option was to log off.
This could go on for days, weeks even, so then the corp had to make a decision, put up with it, or abandon the area and relocate elsewhere.
As a player the additional choice was to find a new corp which could better defend their space, or go back to high sec but it had its own risks to deal with such mercenary corps or "The Code."
Justifiable angry? When a game is coded so a player can't always do what they wish, when they wish? Regardless whether it's a player or npc?
Totally explains how and why MMORPGs devolved the way they did into an easy mode every is a winner mode that they are today, devs did it at the players request....
Put another way, "you" were partly responsible....so no more complaining, you got what you asked for, yes?
BTW, I was part of the problem too, I hated when Rifts overran the world....and walked away from EVE years ago because the extra "challenge" eventually wore me out.
I like my safe little space in New World....and do what I want, when I want, like watch Netflix while gaming.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Get rid of Instances. That's fixed content and that's why people are tired of MMORPGs. They aren't worlds, they are the "same old thing."
A very successful MMORPG is going to need a huge world that's alive, not the same old thing. In that huge world, you can have all kinds of locations. Including places that are empty except for possible Wandering MOBs, maybe some random spawn of resources, whatever. Imagine turning your fixed Instanced content into living world content, where those "empty" spaces are filled with something special. A game where your fixed instanced content isn't a fixed, instanced quest, but rather it comes from a "find", a message, from loot or discovery.
Create "Worlds" again, not just games.
Nah I will keep the main dungeon boss instances, epic dungeon instances, and world boss instances.
Thinking a world without instances is just someones utopia. In reality when you put other players into the mix there is always going to be problems. Boss camping Dungeon camping Chest camping Rare mob camping 1 guy tagging a world boss and running it around the zone for 30 minutes while his guild logs in. People training mobs while you on the boss Going all the way across the zone to a dungeon with a group of friends only to find the dungeon is cleared. Only the top guild gets every world boss because they have people sitting on boss watch rotations Multiple groups fighting for the same dungeon spots Groups stealing the boss kill after you clear the entire dungeon etc...
Yeah no thanks, I dont have time or patience for all that. When me and my friends log in, we want to have fun. We dont want all these issues interferring with that. I also want to experience the content of the game and I dont want to have to play 16 hours a day for a year just to have a shot at a boss kill.
All, or most at any rate, of those problems are built into the game type that you seem to want, fixed content.
You won't have most of that, if not all of it, in a world like I'm talking about. A "living world" where Boss MOBs could be anywhere but are not fixed for your uneventful and boring convenience.
You're making the choice to continue the same old thing that's become monotonous boredom to most. That's your right. But your argument is based on the flaws of your own gaming wants. Not mine.
Edit to add: My dream game play is all about Enhanced PvE. In a World that feels alive. That includes MOBs marching om Player Built Cities, Dragon attacks, etc. It also includes deep Lore and mysteries based off of that.
I'm tired of "Just Games."
while not my "dream game" I've absolutely love a game where pve npc's/monsters marched on cities and actually could take them.
People want a quest? The quest would be to sneak in (or liberate the city) in order to get your stuff.
But most people wouldn't like that. I remember someone complaining in Rift that an invasion was keeping them from "questing."
ugh.
I don't know, there will always be some complaints. That doesn't mean that there are a lot of gamers who feel the same.
Just imagine.
Players attempting to defeat the MOB March, and if that fails it serves to slow the March down. The Great Exodus of caravans moving needed Player supplies and equipment to another city, where a temporary "camp" is being set up and defended by Players outside its walls.
Mages Gating Players into their well protected Towers to run Raids inside their city against the invading horde. Players running Raids from outside. The great battles to free their city. Guilds from around the game world coming to make their mark on the World and its history.
Player Clerics taking back their Temples and calling on the powers of their Deities to set up defensive Wards, forming command centers for the retaking of their city. Warriors (and others) earning in-game medals for killing Named MOBs. Assassins running silent attacks to kill MOB leaders. Thieves opening locks, disarming Traps, setting Traps, and scouting for locations of MOB Bosses.
Quarter by quarter, area by area, the retaking of the city.
Edit to add: My dream game play is all about Enhanced PvE. In a World that feels alive. That includes MOBs marching om Player Built Cities, Dragon attacks, etc. It also includes deep Lore and mysteries based off of that.
I'm tired of "Just Games."
while not my "dream game" I've absolutely love a game where pve npc's/monsters marched on cities and actually could take them.
People want a quest? The quest would be to sneak in (or liberate the city) in order to get your stuff.
But most people wouldn't like that. I remember someone complaining in Rift that an invasion was keeping them from "questing."
ugh.
That happened when there were no longer enough players to clear the mobs in the rift and you would be stuck in the inn while trying to pelt a few. Anyone would be justifiably angry when the game did not tailor the rift down. I think they did do that when the game's population got scarily scarce.
Except that ..is exactly how EVE worked in null sec, if your corporation or alliance didn't have enough defenders to eject the player attackers your option was to log off.
This could go on for days, weeks even, so then the corp had to make a decision, put up with it, or abandon the area and relocate elsewhere.
As a player the additional choice was to find a new corp which could better defend their space, or go back to high sec but it had its own risks to deal with such mercenary corps or "The Code."
Justifiable angry? When a game is coded so a player can't always do what they wish, when they wish? Regardless whether it's a player or npc?
Totally explains how and why MMORPGs devolved the way they did into an easy mode every is a winner mode that they are today, devs did it at the players request....
Put another way, "you" were partly responsible....so no more complaining, you got what you asked for, yes?
BTW, I was part of the problem too, I hated when Rifts overran the world....and walked away from EVE years ago because the extra "challenge" eventually wore me out.
I like my safe little space in New World....and do what I want, when I want, like watch Netflix while gaming.
Definitely spoiled these days.....
With Rifts the failing population meant you had to walk away from the game. It was fine as long as there were people you can call to come help clear but once that failed I wasn't wrong when I said justifiably because you're paying a monthly sub to log in and not be able to play. I don't want that so yes I think it was justifiable.
Edit to add: My dream game play is all about Enhanced PvE. In a World that feels alive. That includes MOBs marching om Player Built Cities, Dragon attacks, etc. It also includes deep Lore and mysteries based off of that.
I'm tired of "Just Games."
while not my "dream game" I've absolutely love a game where pve npc's/monsters marched on cities and actually could take them.
People want a quest? The quest would be to sneak in (or liberate the city) in order to get your stuff.
But most people wouldn't like that. I remember someone complaining in Rift that an invasion was keeping them from "questing."
ugh.
That happened when there were no longer enough players to clear the mobs in the rift and you would be stuck in the inn while trying to pelt a few. Anyone would be justifiably angry when the game did not tailor the rift down. I think they did do that when the game's population got scarily scarce.
Except that ..is exactly how EVE worked in null sec, if your corporation or alliance didn't have enough defenders to eject the player attackers your option was to log off.
This could go on for days, weeks even, so then the corp had to make a decision, put up with it, or abandon the area and relocate elsewhere.
As a player the additional choice was to find a new corp which could better defend their space, or go back to high sec but it had its own risks to deal with such mercenary corps or "The Code."
Justifiable angry? When a game is coded so a player can't always do what they wish, when they wish? Regardless whether it's a player or npc?
Totally explains how and why MMORPGs devolved the way they did into an easy mode every is a winner mode that they are today, devs did it at the players request....
Put another way, "you" were partly responsible....so no more complaining, you got what you asked for, yes?
BTW, I was part of the problem too, I hated when Rifts overran the world....and walked away from EVE years ago because the extra "challenge" eventually wore me out.
I like my safe little space in New World....and do what I want, when I want, like watch Netflix while gaming.
Definitely spoiled these days.....
With Rifts the failing population meant you had to walk away from the game. It was fine as long as there were people you can call to come help clear but once that failed I wasn't wrong when I said justifiably because you're paying a monthly sub to log in and not be able to play. I don't want that so yes I think it was justifiable.
Again, same complaint lodged against EVE players regularly find themselves stationed camped by either players or sometimes NPC pirate fleets in high sec which makes it unprofitable to PVE.
In Rift I recall having to set aside whatever goals I had in the invaded zone and relocate elsewhere.
I never played the game at time where player populations were so low there were no options but totally logging off.
I even returned once and the invasions had been greatly turned down so were a total non factor that time around.
But again, do you really want to play a MMORPG which is an unpredictable virtual world? One where an in game event such as a dragon attack could randomly destroy everything you and your guiild created? I don't see that being any different than if players so the same.
Or are you admitting you are only fine with more challenge npc content if it doesn't inconvenience your game play? If so, you already have what you asked for.
Me, I'd accept a world where devs triggered earthquakes or tsunamis to randomly wipe parts of the world clean, with no sense of fairness, you know, much like the real world.
Think of the possibilities, players could perhaps "pray" or pay tribute to whatever in game dieties they followed, but they should never be able to tell for sure how much is enough, just that in the long run those who devote more time or resources to such activities seem to prosper over those who don't.
I suppose that's why despite being a care bear I kept coming back to EVE for 10 years, as well as played on many PVP servers in other games.
They offered a sense of randomness which made them more of a virtual world and less an exercise of "chores" most MMORPG gameplay has devolved into.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Edit to add: My dream game play is all about Enhanced PvE. In a World that feels alive. That includes MOBs marching om Player Built Cities, Dragon attacks, etc. It also includes deep Lore and mysteries based off of that.
I'm tired of "Just Games."
while not my "dream game" I've absolutely love a game where pve npc's/monsters marched on cities and actually could take them.
People want a quest? The quest would be to sneak in (or liberate the city) in order to get your stuff.
But most people wouldn't like that. I remember someone complaining in Rift that an invasion was keeping them from "questing."
ugh.
I don't know, there will always be some complaints. That doesn't mean that there are a lot of gamers who feel the same.
Just imagine.
Players attempting to defeat the MOB March, and if that fails it serves to slow the March down. The Great Exodus of caravans moving needed Player supplies and equipment to another city, where a temporary "camp" is being set up and defended by Players outside its walls.
Mages Gating Players into their well protected Towers to run Raids inside their city against the invading horde. Players running Raids from outside. The great battles to free their city. Guilds from around the game world coming to make their mark on the World and its history.
Player Clerics taking back their Temples and calling on the powers of their Deities to set up defensive Wards, forming command centers for the retaking of their city. Warriors (and others) earning in-game medals for killing Named MOBs. Assassins running silent attacks to kill MOB leaders. Thieves opening locks, disarming Traps, setting Traps, and scouting for locations of MOB Bosses.
Quarter by quarter, area by area, the retaking of the city.
Who wouldn't want to participate in that?
What a story that would be, eh?
I don't have the time to go into full detail, but literally every activity you described happens in EVE every day, it's just players who are the heros and villains, not some computer generated event.
You want assassin's, EVE'S Stealth fleets fit the bill.
Corporations can and often award their members medals they create themselves for service above and beyond.
Retaking cities quarter by quarter? In my first 6 months in EVE I was part of a massive Raven battleship fleet (200+) that relentlessly pounded star system after system nightly, knocking down all defenses and setting the stage for the conquest fleet running behind us.
It took 2 or 3 months of nightly effort but resulted in the permanent destruction of the BOB Empire.
The logistics were phenomenal, the fleet had to coordinate healing fleets, recon activities and maneuver capitol ship fleets into place to prevent any interference with our "scorched space ways" fleet.
The small corp I was part of actually claimed a star system in our name during the war but the leadership traded it for a full fitted mothership which were quite costly and difficult to obtain in EVE's earlier days.
Besides, we were a mercenaey stealth Corp at heart who had been originally hired to perform stealth recon, gate camp enemy resupply routes etc. so holding sovereignty wasn't really our thing.
The game you are seeking already exists....but ny guess is you, like many others will have a list of reasons not to.
You'll never get the game you want, exactly the way you want. I play what's available rather than wish for that which is unlikely to ever happen, but to each their own.
Cheers.....have to go down and do my daily "chores" in New World....
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Edit to add: My dream game play is all about Enhanced PvE. In a World that feels alive. That includes MOBs marching om Player Built Cities, Dragon attacks, etc. It also includes deep Lore and mysteries based off of that.
I'm tired of "Just Games."
while not my "dream game" I've absolutely love a game where pve npc's/monsters marched on cities and actually could take them.
People want a quest? The quest would be to sneak in (or liberate the city) in order to get your stuff.
But most people wouldn't like that. I remember someone complaining in Rift that an invasion was keeping them from "questing."
ugh.
It's one of the things I loved in Tabula Rasa, how the aliens could trek across the map and take over bases you'd have to fight to control and protect.
Think the thing to say is that players have to always have a way to engage with the game and progress through content. Base/city capture should not be an insurmountable proposition if it's in the way of doing quests.
Relocate the quest NPCs to a temporary refugee camp for example. Or give the quest itself bonus for participating in a rescue.
This does present a bit thing regarding challenge in games though too, in terms of why many games swing challenge towards the lowest common denominator, and why it ends up leaving PvE in a lackluster state. Trying to tune that line where the content is engaging and scales to meet player challenge without blowing past their ability to achieve is hard.
It is not about holding a gun to anyones head. I think you missed the point.
It is about the existing games available and how unfortunately there is not an abundance of good modern MMORPG's, and particularly ones that don't just follow the generic formula. The current ones are all old and tired, or just not actually that good. Some used to be good of course too, but are now dumbed down, and received many changes over time, but not in a positive way.
I'm advocating for a different take on MMORPG's, a different perspective, and explained why many of the more oldschool systems were succesful. So I explained a bunch of elements I think are missing, and why a lot of the more oldschool systems could actually potentially create 'better' games than what we currently have in the genre. So again it is not so much about people playing these current MMORPG's, it is about making NEW games that could be even more fun than those using what we have learned.
I'd rather play new fresh takes that improve and have more fun experiences, than be playing the same game for over 15 years that got dumbed down over time.
You seem to think that the current large MMORPG's are what everyone wants... The vast majority of players don't actually know what they want, and you can bet their ass if a more fun game comes along they will play it. And so what I'm arguing for is that they might be surprised by an MMORPG's with a more oldschool take.
I explained why I think this is the fact, and how you can see it happening in other genre's a lot.
How many good modern MMORPGs there are and which ones they are depends on who you're talking to. That is the point each and every time this issue is raised.
I know that each droning voice of complaint expressed over the dearth of games in forums is matched by at least one not heard because that person is too busy spending their time on the game they enjoy rather than lamenting here.
While discontent is often shouted satisfaction is often silent.
I think people are capable of determining what they want for themselves. They certainly better know what they want than you do. The only wants you are qualified to speak on are your own. What you are hoping is that if people see what you want they will magically want it as well.
Build your diamond then, and see if they will come. We'll see if it turns into the field of dreams you imagine. Just remember that such a field already existed and was largely abandoned in the past so don't get your hopes up too high for many to be rushing back to a similar one in the future.
They only see what is infront of their eyes. You seem to think everyone is an expert game designer and world builder. They are most definitely not.
I've argued giving context and reason, in a positive way, with hope for a better experience than what we have. My very argument is actually saying that I think people can be proven wrong. It also hasn't been done before, otherwise I wouldn't be be arguing for it in the first place. A new game copying the generic formula is actually, nothing new.
You can stay in your negative never changing tired old garden. I'll hope for others or myself to build a new one, taking the best of what we have learned and what people once loved, adding in interesting unique features, and a new vision that many can enjoy.
Started playing mmorpg's in 1996 and have been hooked ever since. It began with Kingdom of Drakkar, Ultima Online, Everquest, DAoC, WoW...
Get rid of Instances. That's fixed content and that's why people are tired of MMORPGs. They aren't worlds, they are the "same old thing."
A very successful MMORPG is going to need a huge world that's alive, not the same old thing. In that huge world, you can have all kinds of locations. Including places that are empty except for possible Wandering MOBs, maybe some random spawn of resources, whatever. Imagine turning your fixed Instanced content into living world content, where those "empty" spaces are filled with something special. A game where your fixed instanced content isn't a fixed, instanced quest, but rather it comes from a "find", a message, from loot or discovery.
Create "Worlds" again, not just games.
Nah I will keep the main dungeon boss instances, epic dungeon instances, and world boss instances.
Thinking a world without instances is just someones utopia. In reality when you put other players into the mix there is always going to be problems. Boss camping Dungeon camping Chest camping Rare mob camping 1 guy tagging a world boss and running it around the zone for 30 minutes while his guild logs in. People training mobs while you on the boss Going all the way across the zone to a dungeon with a group of friends only to find the dungeon is cleared. Only the top guild gets every world boss because they have people sitting on boss watch rotations Multiple groups fighting for the same dungeon spots Groups stealing the boss kill after you clear the entire dungeon etc...
Yeah no thanks, I dont have time or patience for all that. When me and my friends log in, we want to have fun. We dont want all these issues interferring with that. I also want to experience the content of the game and I dont want to have to play 16 hours a day for a year just to have a shot at a boss kill.
All, or most at any rate, of those problems are built into the game type that you seem to want, fixed content.
You won't have most of that, if not all of it, in a world like I'm talking about. A "living world" where Boss MOBs could be anywhere but are not fixed for your uneventful and boring convenience.
You're making the choice to continue the same old thing that's become monotonous boredom to most. That's your right. But your argument is based on the flaws of your own gaming wants. Not mine.
I like your vision. You are thinking bigger and better, more dynamic, out of the box... So so many people are unable to actually think outside of the systems and style we currently have in the genre. When you say to the typical person "envision your own MMORPG", the picture they have in their head just usually mimics what we already have.
I do think the future of MMORPG's either target a VERY specific feature strongly (like a big focus around a rogelite system + risk vs reward + PvP) or will have to be bigger and better than what we currently envision... A large open PvE sandbox world that includes dynamically changing enemy settlements, a dynamic world, also possibly dynamic AI generated content like NPC dialogue/quests etc.
Or a sort of hybrid of those that I just mentioned.
These are just 'ideas' of course. The nice thing about games is they are creatively endless and tech is becoming less and less of a bottleneck as time goes on.
In my eyes, there seems to be a fast growing audience these days in gaming of people who want more risk vs reward in their games. They are tired of how dumbed down so many games are and are finding a thrill with the risk vs reward. You can definitely see this on streaming platforms like twitch. This is why survival, BR, Tarkov/Dark & Darker, roguelike/roguelite games and Dark Souls blew up in recent years...
So I think we should revisit that, as funnily enough, the oldschool MMORPG's actually had a lot of this already!
I was playing an MMORPG in 1996 where if you died in a bosses lair, your gear would be stripped and thrown randomly around the lair. You would actually lose a constitution point semi-permanantly and lose maximum hp if it was a beast that could "eat" you like a dragon. If you can't get your gear... literally bye gear.
Fighting bosses where you could legitimatly take a hit to stats, and need to get the help of another large guild in order to to get all your gear back if you died, was a real thrill.
Started playing mmorpg's in 1996 and have been hooked ever since. It began with Kingdom of Drakkar, Ultima Online, Everquest, DAoC, WoW...
Comments
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
A very successful MMORPG is going to need a huge world that's alive, not the same old thing.
In that huge world, you can have all kinds of locations. Including places that are empty except for possible Wandering MOBs, maybe some random spawn of resources, whatever.
Imagine turning your fixed Instanced content into living world content, where those "empty" spaces are filled with something special. A game where your fixed instanced content isn't a fixed, instanced quest, but rather it comes from a "find", a message, from loot or discovery.
Create "Worlds" again, not just games.
Once upon a time....
I'm really not sure what point you are trying to make here.
If you think I want to see hidden abuses, hidden behind PR claims, like so many open world PvP games have done in the past, then you are mistaken.
I hated the abuses in UO. I saw many friends leave because of it. It destroyed the game as it could have been (without it). And I loved the rest of UO, the Sandbox world, the social atmosphere, etc. I saw the potential for great things ruined because of abusive Players.
I've promoted a number of "fixes" on these forums over the years.
I've even stated that if it were my money on the line, I eliminate PvP entirely outside of Sanctioned Wars, and even that would have some limits, such as not allowed in cities.
Rule can't always be bent to an advantage. How many games that don't allow PvP outside of battle zones have that rule bent?
Edit to add:
My dream game play is all about Enhanced PvE. In a World that feels alive.
That includes MOBs marching om Player Built Cities, Dragon attacks, etc.
It also includes deep Lore and mysteries based off of that.
I'm tired of "Just Games."
Once upon a time....
Sadly were such a game to get started on today I could be in my mid 70s before it released should I be blessed to be healthy and live so long.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
The main consideration is that so many gamers are against PvP interfering with their gaming under any circumstances. It's become an emotional thing.
There are other considerations, though, depending on game design.
It would likely cost Player retention and initial purchase to some degree, all depending on game design and the strength of communication from the Devs.
As far as MOBs, the key there is "marching on."
If MOBs just spawned on top of Players, unexpectedly, they wouldn't like that either.
But if the MOBs have to travel overland to get there first, Players can go out and stop them. Failing that, at least Players have a chance to clear out if they feel they need to.
By the way, I'm talking in general here. I don't think that cities built by PvP Guilds and attacking each other harms a game in this way.
Once upon a time....
I know that each droning voice of complaint expressed over the dearth of games in forums is matched by at least one not heard because that person is too busy spending their time on the game they enjoy rather than lamenting here.
While discontent is often shouted satisfaction is often silent.
I think people are capable of determining what they want for themselves. They certainly better know what they want than you do. The only wants you are qualified to speak on are your own. What you are hoping is that if people see what you want they will magically want it as well.
Build your diamond then, and see if they will come. We'll see if it turns into the field of dreams you imagine. Just remember that such a field already existed and was largely abandoned in the past so don't get your hopes up too high for many to be rushing back to a similar one in the future.
That's the thing. A large studio won't take that chance as there is no reason to expect there would be enough players interested for the revenue potential to be worth the bother. Every recent attempt to offer MMORPGs with old school elements has gone poorly. The older games still in operation don't draw many players in. No large company looking at that reality is going the roll the dice on such a project.
Only the smaller companies are open to that kind of risk, and there lack of resources are going to make any game they produce for short of modern expectations. As a result such games will tend to get few players and the large companies will see the results and have their prudence in avoiding such games confirmed.
Players just expressing the desire for such games won't motivate larger companies to provide them. That interest has to first be demonstrated before they will bite. Likely the best way to inspire the making of new games like those in the past is for players to collectively play those remaining games of the past even if those titles are no longer at their prime. With enough doing so perhaps market interest will be noticed and then accommodated.
Nah I will keep the main dungeon boss instances, epic dungeon instances, and world boss instances.
Thinking a world without instances is just someones utopia. In reality when you put other players into the mix there is always going to be problems.
Boss camping
Dungeon camping
Chest camping
Rare mob camping
1 guy tagging a world boss and running it around the zone for 30 minutes while his guild logs in.
People training mobs while you on the boss
Going all the way across the zone to a dungeon with a group of friends only to find the dungeon is cleared.
Only the top guild gets every world boss because they have people sitting on boss watch rotations
Multiple groups fighting for the same dungeon spots
Groups stealing the boss kill after you clear the entire dungeon
etc...
Yeah no thanks, I dont have time or patience for all that. When me and my friends log in, we want to have fun. We dont want all these issues interferring with that. I also want to experience the content of the game and I dont want to have to play 16 hours a day for a year just to have a shot at a boss kill.
Point being, NPCs could very easily be set to do all of the things players do to make the overall gaming experience unpleasant.
So what people are really saying is they don't mind their bases being attacked as long as there is little to no chance of losing.
So I put forth, what is the point of the NPC attack in the first place, just skip the whole thing and leave my base in peace.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Players (most) don't mind losing a battle (NPCs and game design), but they do mind losing an unfair war (the typical gank setup and repetition).
Once upon a time....
This could go on for days, weeks even, so then the corp had to make a decision, put up with it, or abandon the area and relocate elsewhere.
As a player the additional choice was to find a new corp which could better defend their space, or go back to high sec but it had its own risks to deal with such mercenary corps or "The Code."
Justifiable angry? When a game is coded so a player can't always do what they wish, when they wish? Regardless whether it's a player or npc?
Totally explains how and why MMORPGs devolved the way they did into an easy mode every is a winner mode that they are today, devs did it at the players request....
Put another way, "you" were partly responsible....so no more complaining, you got what you asked for, yes?
BTW, I was part of the problem too, I hated when Rifts overran the world....and walked away from EVE years ago because the extra "challenge" eventually wore me out.
I like my safe little space in New World....and do what I want, when I want, like watch Netflix while gaming.
Definitely spoiled these days.....
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
You won't have most of that, if not all of it, in a world like I'm talking about. A "living world" where Boss MOBs could be anywhere but are not fixed for your uneventful and boring convenience.
You're making the choice to continue the same old thing that's become monotonous boredom to most. That's your right. But your argument is based on the flaws of your own gaming wants. Not mine.
Once upon a time....
Just imagine.
Players attempting to defeat the MOB March, and if that fails it serves to slow the March down.
The Great Exodus of caravans moving needed Player supplies and equipment to another city, where a temporary "camp" is being set up and defended by Players outside its walls.
Mages Gating Players into their well protected Towers to run Raids inside their city against the invading horde.
Players running Raids from outside.
The great battles to free their city.
Guilds from around the game world coming to make their mark on the World and its history.
Player Clerics taking back their Temples and calling on the powers of their Deities to set up defensive Wards, forming command centers for the retaking of their city.
Warriors (and others) earning in-game medals for killing Named MOBs.
Assassins running silent attacks to kill MOB leaders.
Thieves opening locks, disarming Traps, setting Traps, and scouting for locations of MOB Bosses.
Quarter by quarter, area by area, the retaking of the city.
Who wouldn't want to participate in that?
What a story that would be, eh?
Once upon a time....
In Rift I recall having to set aside whatever goals I had in the invaded zone and relocate elsewhere.
I never played the game at time where player populations were so low there were no options but totally logging off.
I even returned once and the invasions had been greatly turned down so were a total non factor that time around.
But again, do you really want to play a MMORPG which is an unpredictable virtual world? One where an in game event such as a dragon attack could randomly destroy everything you and your guiild created? I don't see that being any different than if players so the same.
Or are you admitting you are only fine with more challenge npc content if it doesn't inconvenience your game play? If so, you already have what you asked for.
Me, I'd accept a world where devs triggered earthquakes or tsunamis to randomly wipe parts of the world clean, with no sense of fairness, you know, much like the real world.
Think of the possibilities, players could perhaps "pray" or pay tribute to whatever in game dieties they followed, but they should never be able to tell for sure how much is enough, just that in the long run those who devote more time or resources to such activities seem to prosper over those who don't.
I suppose that's why despite being a care bear I kept coming back to EVE for 10 years, as well as played on many PVP servers in other games.
They offered a sense of randomness which made them more of a virtual world and less an exercise of "chores" most MMORPG gameplay has devolved into.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
You want assassin's, EVE'S Stealth fleets fit the bill.
Corporations can and often award their members medals they create themselves for service above and beyond.
Retaking cities quarter by quarter? In my first 6 months in EVE I was part of a massive Raven battleship fleet (200+) that relentlessly pounded star system after system nightly, knocking down all defenses and setting the stage for the conquest fleet running behind us.
It took 2 or 3 months of nightly effort but resulted in the permanent destruction of the BOB Empire.
The logistics were phenomenal, the fleet had to coordinate healing fleets, recon activities and maneuver capitol ship fleets into place to prevent any interference with our "scorched space ways" fleet.
The small corp I was part of actually claimed a star system in our name during the war but the leadership traded it for a full fitted mothership which were quite costly and difficult to obtain in EVE's earlier days.
Besides, we were a mercenaey stealth Corp at heart who had been originally hired to perform stealth recon, gate camp enemy resupply routes etc. so holding sovereignty wasn't really our thing.
The game you are seeking already exists....but ny guess is you, like many others will have a list of reasons not to.
You'll never get the game you want, exactly the way you want. I play what's available rather than wish for that which is unlikely to ever happen, but to each their own.
Cheers.....have to go down and do my daily "chores" in New World....
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Think the thing to say is that players have to always have a way to engage with the game and progress through content. Base/city capture should not be an insurmountable proposition if it's in the way of doing quests.
Relocate the quest NPCs to a temporary refugee camp for example. Or give the quest itself bonus for participating in a rescue.
This does present a bit thing regarding challenge in games though too, in terms of why many games swing challenge towards the lowest common denominator, and why it ends up leaving PvE in a lackluster state. Trying to tune that line where the content is engaging and scales to meet player challenge without blowing past their ability to achieve is hard.