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Camelot Unchained's April Update Details Efforts to Develop 'One of the Most Powerful MMO AI Systems

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  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 17,586
    nurso said:
    nurso said:
    As Slapshot said, this game is supposed to be like 90% PvP.


    I understand that CU needed to do some extra work on pathfinding in order to ensure their destructible world worked with NPCs and pets. But decent "AI"? Seems like a bit of a waste of time......unless they are planning to pivot towards being PvE.
    A good AI is needed for e.g. the NPC castle defenders or the mobs defending Places of Power or spawning in The Depths ... especially The Depths should not provide the rare craft ingredients without a little struggle. The NPC AI is of course not only needed for CU, but also for FSR.
    Sure, like I said... good AI is always a plus, but it's more like the icing on the cake for the RvR focused game.  The issue is that we still need the cake...

    Is it though? In the current newsletter, it was indicated why a more complex AI is needed:
    At this point in development we have a very powerful AI engine, which is built to support sophisticated behaviors interacting with the environment and thousands of other entities.
    and
    Once marked up, the world becomes alive with possible exploitations by our NPCs. We can have certain creatures prefer to live and operate within specific land features, such as on snowy surfaces, or muddy river banks. Or we can have them seek the unique resources of a given area. We could have NPCs avoid water, or seek it, for a variety of purposes. The possibilities are endless.
    Surely, an MMORPG should definitely have a living, breathing world, even if the game itself has a PvP focus.
    From Mark's Foundational Principle number 2 above:

    "Secondly, to make sure that the first point is followed, let’s just say that there are no NPC drops at all and damn few NPCs."

    That was the whole premise here.  It wasn't to build some living breathing full fledged PvE MMORPG.  It was to make a game where people fought each other over territory.  There would be NPCs but they would be secondary.  

    Would it be fun to have a full, living and breathing world?  Sure... but 10 years in.... how about we focus on what was promised first, then go build on that for the next decade?

    SovrathKyleranRaagnarzMcSleaz

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  • nursonurso Member UncommonPosts: 327
    nurso said:
    nurso said:
    As Slapshot said, this game is supposed to be like 90% PvP.


    I understand that CU needed to do some extra work on pathfinding in order to ensure their destructible world worked with NPCs and pets. But decent "AI"? Seems like a bit of a waste of time......unless they are planning to pivot towards being PvE.
    A good AI is needed for e.g. the NPC castle defenders or the mobs defending Places of Power or spawning in The Depths ... especially The Depths should not provide the rare craft ingredients without a little struggle. The NPC AI is of course not only needed for CU, but also for FSR.
    Sure, like I said... good AI is always a plus, but it's more like the icing on the cake for the RvR focused game.  The issue is that we still need the cake...

    Is it though? In the current newsletter, it was indicated why a more complex AI is needed:
    At this point in development we have a very powerful AI engine, which is built to support sophisticated behaviors interacting with the environment and thousands of other entities.
    and
    Once marked up, the world becomes alive with possible exploitations by our NPCs. We can have certain creatures prefer to live and operate within specific land features, such as on snowy surfaces, or muddy river banks. Or we can have them seek the unique resources of a given area. We could have NPCs avoid water, or seek it, for a variety of purposes. The possibilities are endless.
    Surely, an MMORPG should definitely have a living, breathing world, even if the game itself has a PvP focus.
    From Mark's Foundational Principle number 2 above:

    "Secondly, to make sure that the first point is followed, let’s just say that there are no NPC drops at all and damn few NPCs."

    That was the whole premise here.  It wasn't to build some living breathing full fledged PvE MMORPG.  It was to make a game where people fought each other over territory.  There would be NPCs but they would be secondary.  

    Would it be fun to have a full, living and breathing world?  Sure... but 10 years in.... how about we focus on what was promised first, then go build on that for the next decade?

    CU will not have PvE progression, BUT
    Camelot Unchained will have all kinds of NPCs (non-player characters) to kill, summon/capture or talk to - guards, animals, NPC helpers, spirits, pets...there will be dungeons and big monsters guarding important places or being killed for meat, scale or fur, just it will all revolve around RvR.
    Source: https://camelotunchained.fandom.com/wiki/PvE_in_Camelot_Unchained
    There will be NPCs of course (as I’ve stated before) since towns need citizens, structures need guards, crafters need leather, etc. The world won’t be empty but NPCs will not be dropping tokens, items, etc. However, you will be able to scavenge/skin/etc. materials from them of course but again, not items, tokens, etc. There is also a difference between PvE-NPCs (cows) and RvR-NPCs (guards, human or otherwise) but no item or token drops. I also promise that there will not be PvE expansions with new tiers of gear drops that become required to complete. This game is a RvR-focused MMORPG and will remain such.
    Source: https://camelotunchained.com/v3/ks-update-evening-update-april-9-2013/
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 17,586
    Yes I understand that, but as he stated in his Foundational Principle 2, there was supposed to be "damn few" NPCs. We are 10 years in and seem to be no closer to release than we were at least 6+ years ago.  Advanced AI is a great feature, but it's not a core need for a game like this IMHO.  Also, I tested the last time he bragged about his "advanced pathfindingI" and it was pretty... basic, but pretty much all that was needed for an RvR game.







    All time classic  MY NEW FAVORITE POST!  (Keep laying those bricks)

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  • RandomCasualtyRandomCasualty Member UncommonPosts: 330
    For the length of time this has taken, EA should have just rebuilt DAOC from the ground up on a prettier engine. That would have done me fine
  • DarkhawkeDarkhawke Member UncommonPosts: 212
    For the length of time this has taken, EA should have just rebuilt DAOC from the ground up on a prettier engine. That would have done me fine
    They cannot , they do not have the rights to it,  matter a fact there are many words and phrases from DAOC that CU cannot use.
  • olepiolepi Member EpicPosts: 3,017
    For the length of time this has taken, EA should have just rebuilt DAOC from the ground up on a prettier engine. That would have done me fine

    DAOC had complex characters with lots of powers, not like today's arcade/action level powers like New World or ESO. Not sure how it would work on console controllers.

    I don't think a reworked DAOC would succeed today.


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  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 43,975
    edited May 2023
    olepi said:
    For the length of time this has taken, EA should have just rebuilt DAOC from the ground up on a prettier engine. That would have done me fine

    DAOC had complex characters with lots of powers, not like today's arcade/action level powers like New World or ESO. Not sure how it would work on console controllers.

    I don't think a reworked DAOC would succeed today.


    So far I don't believe there's any plans to deliver CU on consoles, though 10 yrs later when it finally releases that may change.

    ;)

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  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 43,975
    Darkhawke said:
    For the length of time this has taken, EA should have just rebuilt DAOC from the ground up on a prettier engine. That would have done me fine
    They cannot , they do not have the rights to it,  matter a fact there are many words and phrases from DAOC that CU cannot use.
    CSE can't, EA could but have shown absolutely no interest in doing so

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • DarkhawkeDarkhawke Member UncommonPosts: 212
    Kyleran said:
    Darkhawke said:
    For the length of time this has taken, EA should have just rebuilt DAOC from the ground up on a prettier engine. That would have done me fine
    They cannot , they do not have the rights to it,  matter a fact there are many words and phrases from DAOC that CU cannot use.
    CSE can't, EA could but have shown absolutely no interest in doing so
    Ahh right thx , was thinking Broadsword had rights to DAOC at this point . 
  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 24,273
    edited May 2023
    If you can't make the game you said you were going to make solid enough to launch, move the goal posts and build something else. Or at least say that's what you are doing while still trying to get what you originally intended done and using the new goal post as an excuse for delays. You pick which one it is.
  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 24,273
    Ok mate don't hold back. :)
    Sovrath
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 43,975
    Scot said:
    If you can't make the game you said you were going to make solid enough to launch, move the goal posts and build something else. Or at least say that's what you are doing while still trying to get what you originally intended done and using the new goal post as an excuse for delays. You pick which one it is.
    Yes, all of the above.

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • NildenNilden Member EpicPosts: 3,916
    El Risitas Man behind Spanish laughing guy meme dies - BBC News

    HA HA HA HA!!!

    Camelot Unchained's April Update Details Efforts to Develop 'One of the Most Powerful MMO AI Systems

    AI for a P V P game, where it's least needed because the entire focus is supposed to be fighting other players!

    HA HA HA HA!!

    In a game that's 10+ years since it's kickstarter! HAHAA!

    I'm sure this will help the Ragnarok game that no one asked for that has zero players!  Where they betrayed their backers by not even making the game they said they would. HAAAH AHAA AHAHAH!!

    What an absolute joke.

    Way to jump on that AI bandwagon!

    English Idiom Jump on the bandwagon - UCLnetcom

    Do they have concept art for the AI???

    HA HA HA HA HA HA!!

    HA!



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  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 17,586
    Do not forget that Mark's partner and Co-Founder Andrew Meggs who was the main programmer behind this left the company a year or two ago.

    All time classic  MY NEW FAVORITE POST!  (Keep laying those bricks)

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

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  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 43,975
    Do not forget that Mark's partner and Co-Founder Andrew Meggs who was the main programmer behind this left the company a year or two ago.

    Clearly he lost faith in the project, it's not a good sign that a contract position at Meta looked to be the better opportunity.

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 17,586
    Kyleran said:
    Do not forget that Mark's partner and Co-Founder Andrew Meggs who was the main programmer behind this left the company a year or two ago.

    Clearly he lost faith in the project, it's not a good sign that a contract position at Meta looked to be the better opportunity.
    Or Mark lost faith in him...

    Neither is good though.  
    Kyleran

    All time classic  MY NEW FAVORITE POST!  (Keep laying those bricks)

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 18,719
    Rubrubgrr said:
    CAMELOT UNHINGED! PISS OFf MARK..WE R SIK OF TELLING YOU..BUT WONT STOP...GTFO OUT OF THE GENRE...U R BLACKBALLED..THE COMMUNITY HAS SPOKEN AGAIN AND AGAIN..BUT THESE DIPSHITS KEEP GETTING PAYED TO PROMOTE U..../FACEPALM!

    "TO MANY TIMES...TO MANY LIES! DOO DA DOO DOO..."TO MANY TIMES TO MANY LIES" ....
    FYI, there are styles under "format" that let you go even larger in case you want to really let it all hang out, like this...

    CAMELOT UNHINGED! PISS OFf MARK...

    KyleranValdemarJ
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