Opinion: Kill The Big Game | MMORPG.com

System · May 2023

Opinion: Kill The Big Game | MMORPG.com

The triple-A game was once the darling of the industry. Now, they bring their developers and players anxiety. It's time to bring them down to size.

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Angrakhan · May 2023

Like many truly awful things in 2023, the obvious foundation of these problems lies in capitalism

Wow, way to wear your liberal politics on your sleeve. I guess at least your honest about it. Venezuela is were you're headed if you want to go down the road of socialism. You will not like how that road ends, just ask Venezuelans. I know several because they FLED HERE (the US). Their view of capitalism vs socialism is quite different than yours. Since they lived it, I'll trust theirs since my guess is your opinion is largely armchair political views based on theoretical perfection of socialism vs the brass tacks actual implementation of how socialism plays out in reality.

Anyway...

If you didn't want this article to instantly devolve into a political hot topic diatribe, then maybe you shouldn't make that your exclamation point at the end of your article.

If your point is rather that you think that studios have placed a higher value on profit than quality, then I'd agree with you. Just don't conflate that issue with an impugnment of capitalism as a financial model. It's two separate issues. In a capitalist model that issue is self correcting because what happens is the market reacts negatively to your half-baked, overpriced product an you lose money. In this case lots of money. The offending company will either learn from their mistakes or they will go out of business. In a socialist model the government ultimately controls the pricing and availability of the game which means they have a lot of direct control over how the game is built, so your games all end up being sanitized through the government and you only get to play what they want you to play when they want you to play it. Just ask the Chinese. Maybe what you end up getting is higher quality at launch because it has to go through government approval before its made available, but the flip side is you have to ask yourself how much of what you are playing is propaganda.

See also: https://www.appinchina.co/services/game-publishing/content-restrictions-for-publishing-games-in-china/

Personally, I'd rather have the freedom to choose the content I consume when I have downtime to enjoy a game than have the government dictate what is available to me. You do you, though, I suppose.

riningear · May 2023

while we're here on this topic let me just get this part of the discussion out of the way

Slapshot1188 · May 2023

riningear said:

while we're here on this topic let me just get this part of the discussion out of the way

Oh don't worry about it. AI will eventually eliminate a big chunk of the current workforce because the higher you drive wages, the more incentive there is to reduce headcount. So yeah, those left 10 years from now might be making more money and working less. Those cut will definitely be working less. Win-Win?

But let's not forget if it wasn't for capitalism we probably would not have computer games, or maybe even personal computers.

Shodhan · May 2023

Living almost half of my life under a communist regime and, after its fall, having to bear with their awful offspring in a so-called capitalist freedom, I get sick and tired of people living comfortably in a REAL free world but being disgusted of it. Get a grip!

Leafwhistle · May 2023

Personally, I'd rather have the freedom to choose the content I consume when I have downtime to enjoy a game than have the government dictate what is available to me. You do you, though, I suppose.

She didn't say she wanted that. She said the things she said in the article.

Nick_Shively · May 2023

I personally prefer AAA games, but I wish they had more time to bake like they used to, even if that means they cost even more. Blizzard used to release objectively perfect games. They were done when they were done without publishing release dates years in advance. There were no open betas or public early access, just insane amounts of in house testing.

As far as the capitalism argument goes, games wouldn't even be around without capitalism. It's a luxury good that wouldn't exist if our society didn't value making money. There's nothing inherently wrong with capitalism or wanting to earn a profit.

The problem comes from the mindset of needing to constantly make 'more money' instead of just earning a solid profit, which is often enforced by a board of directors / majority shareholders. This is ironically a form of socialism because it is not the direction of a single CEO but the vast owners of a company voting to push for increased profits.

[Deleted User] · May 2023

The user and all related content has been deleted.

TheDalaiBomba · May 2023

Jesus tap-dancing Christ, do you people not see any shade of color but black and white?

Tell me you know nothing about economies without telling me by reducing things down to "either this or it's socialism all the way down."

This is the real reason we can't have these kind of discussions. It's also the reason we can't have nice things. I am not kidding.

Slapshot1188 · May 2023

templarga said:

Wow, way to jump on the capitalism vs. socialism vs. whatever-ism argument and totally misunderstood what the author said. Yes, capitalism is to blame in part because capitalism is designed to maximize profit for shareholders. Its not BIG C capitalism as a system of government but the gross-profit margins that are designed to make profit for owners. She even elaborates and clarifies, "And to be clear, these decisions regularly, primarily come from executives who care more about money and sales as broadly and quickly as possible instead of the livelihood of the industry and the art of the medium."

The point is that triple AAA games are driven by profit. Many on this forum use the same argument in not such words but people talk about when Blizzard cared about games and the gamer and not their bottom line. Its the same argument.

Games are released early to meet deadlines, deadlines established by quarterly reports to make the company look good. We all know this. Its all about earning reports and stocks and profit.

Stop attacking someone for the same argument, just only in different wording.

Except of course... if your argument was in fact correct then we should be flush in all these Crowdfunded games that avoid all the same problems caused by the big bad AAA executives that "care more about money and sales as broadly and quickly as possible instead of the livelihood of the industry and the art of the medium".

But as has been proven over and over again, cutting out the "evil" executives does not result in any better game, faster development, less bugs, or happier employees.

Iselin · May 2023

IDk. I get your point but if I like a game I want it to be big...

... Huge even

And never end. If I don;t like it much I don;t care.

I'm the same with books, films and TV series I like. I'm still mad that Amazon canceled The Expanse

ValdemarJ · May 2023

We need games across the spectrum studio sizes, types, and budgets, from AAA to self-published indie single person developer. They all bring something different with their own strengths and weaknesses.

While I agree with the author, that capitalism drives anti-consumer practices, like predatory monetization, poor quality controls, and poor work environments, I don't see any evidence to think that small or large businesses are any better or worse at this and we can easily come up with all sorts of examples to support that idea.

What is rarely, if ever, pointed out in these articles is the huge role gaming sites play in supporting this sort of behavior when it benefits and suits them. Maybe a big part of the entire solution is for the industry PR mouthpiece (gaming sites) to start making changes themselves to stop promoting that money hungry machine. But then again, these sites are also capitalist in nature and subject to the same problems gaming studios are. They're driven by clicks and profit, not moralizations.

Ryukan · May 2023

The big game does not need to be killed. Publishers/developers need to stop killing the big game themselves by not releasing crappy, half-assed wannabe AAA games at AAA prices. What really needs to be killed is the "Games as Live Services we can just fix it later" crap.

Champie · May 2023

Iselin said:

I'm still mad that Amazon canceled The Expanse

I was happy that Amazon ended the show when they did.

Alverant · May 2023

TheDalaiBomba said:

Jesus tap-dancing Christ, do you people not see any shade of color but black and white?

Tell me you know nothing about economies without telling me by reducing things down to "either this or it's socialism all the way down."

I wouldn't be surprised if any of the know what "socialism" is apart from "the angry man on TV said to hate it".

Alverant · May 2023

riningear said:

while we're here on this topic let me just get this part of the discussion out of the way

For those who didn't click the link, the tweet is:

i want shorter games with worse graphics made by people who are paid more to work less and i'm not kidding

I'm not kidding either. Shorter games with worse graphics means less grind (both for the player and those who do the actual work) and a lower price with lower system requirements so more people can play the game. The people who make the game already get lousy pay and excessive hours. I'm for raising the former and lowering the latter.

Nick_Shively · May 2023

Alverant said:

riningear said:

while we're here on this topic let me just get this part of the discussion out of the way

For those who didn't click the link, the tweet is:

i want shorter games with worse graphics made by people who are paid more to work less and i'm not kidding

I'm not kidding either. Shorter games with worse graphics means less grind (both for the player and those who do the actual work) and a lower price with lower system requirements so more people can play the game. The people who make the game already get lousy pay and excessive hours. I'm for raising the former and lowering the latter.

That's great for you, but not everyone (probably most people) don't think that way. If I'm paying $60-70 for a game, I want it to be the best possible. That goes for visuals, performance, and depth of gameplay mechanics.

In current work climates, delivering a worse product won't decrease how much employees work. They'll just be moved over to a new project quicker. The only precedent what you're suggesting would set is that you're willing to pay more (or the same) for less.

ValdemarJ · May 2023

Alverant said:

riningear said:

while we're here on this topic let me just get this part of the discussion out of the way

For those who didn't click the link, the tweet is:

i want shorter games with worse graphics made by people who are paid more to work less and i'm not kidding

I'm not kidding either. Shorter games with worse graphics means less grind (both for the player and those who do the actual work) and a lower price with lower system requirements so more people can play the game. The people who make the game already get lousy pay and excessive hours. I'm for raising the former and lowering the latter.

Hmm, I don't like that message at all and I think that take is so oversimplified that it is essentially meaningless. This is just one many reasons why I hate Twitter, it is reductive to a harmful level for quality communication. All nuance is lost and results in a series of useless takes that make for great soundbites or getting the echo chamber on a bandwagon, but nothing productive.

Quizzical · May 2023

There are no-budget indie games developed by one person or a few people in their free time, there are games developed in hopes of making a profit, and there aren't many other games at all. The second category is capitalism, and while there are some genuinely good games of the first type, what you can do with that severe lack of resources is pretty limited.

Capitalism does not dictate that there must be huge budgets, big hype about launch day, or crunch time for developers. It's customers that dictate that, and a lot of game studios cater to it because that's what what a lot of people will pay for.

If you think that crunch is evil, or at least bad for the industry, then put your money where your mouth is. Don't buy big budget games at launch. Buy small indie games or AAA games well after launch instead.

Capitalism only pushes companies to buy what customers will pay well for. It can just as easily push companies to delay launch however long it takes to make a polished product as it can to rush development to meet some fixed launch date. Vote with your wallet and capitalism will push companies to do what people vote for.

I agree that crunch is bad, not just for the humans who develop games, but also for the quality of the games themselves. I want games made by developers doing their best quality work, and when you're being forced to work 60+ hour weeks, you're going to be too tired to do your best quality work. And so I don't play (or pay for) AAA games right at the rushed launch at the end of a crunch period.

Aeander · May 2023

Okay, so I'm going to give my quick input on 'le politics'. Lots of fucking dunce takes here. There are many degrees of regulation between hypercapitalist American dystopian ruined by generations of useless and immoral Reaganomics, and the non-functioning socialist dystopia of Venezuala. Most of those degrees are more functioning capitalism, and if the level of capitalism we are at cannot provide fair hours, decent wages, higher education, and health care, our nation is broken and needs to change which level of capitalism it is operating on.

Now, for the actual topic at hand. I'm tired of the totally unnuanced debate between indies and AAA. There are great indies. There are also a lot of fucking shit ones. There are a lot of great AA and AAA games. There are also a lot of shit ones.

Indies are generally not more creative either. Especially not these days. They are just a different breed of non-creative. The vast majority of them are some obnoxious combination of roguelikes/lites, 2D platformers/metroidvanias, cards, and survival mechanics. These are genres that AAA rarely does, sure, but they aren't unique or special anymore.

Ultimately, just figure out what developers and franchises you actually like, across the spectrum. I think that for most types of games, the market is generally doing a good job of supplying them. And if a no lifer like me can fill all of my free hours with quality games, and never run out, you cynnical lot can too.

Quizzical · May 2023

Aeander said:

if the level of capitalism we are at cannot provide fair hours, decent wages

The problem is that "fair" hours and "decent" wages are very open-ended terms. No matter what the hours and wages are, it will always be easy for someone to demagogue them as not good enough.

One huge advantage of capitalism is that if you don't like the wages or hours at your job, you can quit and go somewhere else that is more to your liking. If no one will offer you wages and hours that you're satisfied with, then the problem is that your labor isn't productive enough. That can be due to government interference that makes you less productive, as can happen with excessive taxes or regulations. Sometimes the problem is that people simply expect to get paid more than they produce, and no economic system can deliver that to everyone at once.

finefluff · May 2023

I want big elder scrolls VI

Kyleran · May 2023

Quizzical said:

Aeander said:

if the level of capitalism we are at cannot provide fair hours, decent wages

The problem is that "fair" hours and "decent" wages are very open-ended terms. No matter what the hours and wages are, it will always be easy for someone to demagogue them as not good enough.

One huge advantage of capitalism is that if you don't like the wages or hours at your job, you can quit and go somewhere else that is more to your liking. If no one will offer you wages and hours that you're satisfied with, then the problem is that your labor isn't productive enough. That can be due to government interference that makes you less productive, as can happen with excessive taxes or regulations. Sometimes the problem is that people simply expect to get paid more than they produce, and no economic system can deliver that to everyone at once.

Yet in some cases, people do produce far more than they are paid, but the benefits are not distributed as equitably as they should be perhaps.

Excessively high executive salaries are just one example but clearly the human tendency to take advantage of the situation is why laissez-faire or naked capitalism rarely works and government intervention is necessary to ensure some level of equity in the system.

How much intervention is very debatable of course, too much or two little can both lead to situations of political strife and civil unrest.

waveslayer · May 2023

gotta say this to the first poster, SOCIALISM is simply when the workers own the means of production, there is nothing about socialism that takes freedom away, get outta your right wing echo chamber and you will be more free.

I thought the article was about having to much expectations about games...maybe I am wrong

richrem1 · May 2023

Greedy assholes have been oppressing workers for thousands of years. "There's nothing new under the sun." If you pull your head out of your ass for a moment, you'll see how greed is ruining everything, even our ecosystem. Without laws and regulation, these coporate MOFO's would crack the earth in half to save a nickle.

AAA or indie has no meaning for me; when I see that only talent, skill and choices made, matter. Look at SpaceBourne 2, made by 1 dev (or is so claims), and has done a better job than other indie or AAA companies have in the same genre. Just because you have millions of dollars to blow, doesn't mean your product is going to be good. Take a look at Dual Universe, Star (Scam) Citizen, Cyberpunk 2077, etc.; and realize the mess they are after so much money was blown making them.

Scot · May 2023

I do blame the corporate culture for much of what has gone wrong with gaming over the past 20 years but I don't blame capitalism, we would not have a gaming sector without it.

I think in any area of our lives we should seek to do better and expect others to do so as well. So I think I have never disagreed with Victoria more here, AAA must go on and it must become AAA+. Yes it causes all sorts of issues but so does having better cars, look at how much a hybrid infrastructure will cost, should be abandon that?

"A game’s scope broadens as it’s developed, then is toned back as the developers are pressured to finish, which then inevitably creates compromises."

Victoria's friend's quote could apply to any business or governmental project, I have had to take part in many streamlining exercises of government projects myself. Particularly if the news media starts honking about delivery times, is that so different from the gaming media honking about release schedules?

Always aim to be the best, but plan for the worst, we can't expect gaming or any other human endeavour to do more than that.

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Opinion: Kill The Big Game | MMORPG.com

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