9.5 is waaaay too generous for a game that almost everyone considers a slog after the story. The game has barely a shell of endgame as well. An endgame that wasn't improved since last falls endgame closed beta BTW.
I feel like they scored it as a disposable game and not one designed to keep you playing a long time.
Game plays and looks exactly like Diablo Immortal and is setting a crazy precedent for monetization. Hard pass for me.
You clearly didn't even play the game or know anything about the monetization for it if you think that it looks like Diablo Immortal or has comparable monetization. You're opinion is no longer valid.
While injecting hyperbole and placing things into extremes makes for flawed commentary, there are valid things to express concern over, especially if one does enjoy the game and is invested in it's long-term wellbeing.
Personally I don't have an issue with it unless there are more then 3 forms of monetization. For Diablo 4 it is: Box Price, Cash Shop, Battlepass. Borderline, but not a deal breaker. Meanwhile, PoE has the following: Lootboxes, Battlepass, Cash Shop, Supporter Packs
The cold hard truth is though that this won't be changing. Any game with ongoing monetization is going to likely have a battlepass and a cash shop at the absolute minimum. I don't really care as long as it is not P2W or P2 Stash Tab. Also, judging by how successful these games have been....people just play games they enjoy and don't care about monetization very much at the end of the day. I mean, Diablo 4 has already sold like 10 million copies roughly and it has not even been out a month.
Game plays and looks exactly like Diablo Immortal and is setting a crazy precedent for monetization. Hard pass for me.
You clearly didn't even play the game or know anything about the monetization for it if you think that it looks like Diablo Immortal or has comparable monetization. You're opinion is no longer valid.
While injecting hyperbole and placing things into extremes makes for flawed commentary, there are valid things to express concern over, especially if one does enjoy the game and is invested in it's long-term wellbeing.
Personally I don't have an issue with it unless there are more then 3 forms of monetization. For Diablo 4 it is: Box Price, Cash Shop, Battlepass. Borderline, but not a deal breaker. Meanwhile, PoE has the following: Lootboxes, Battlepass, Cash Shop, Supporter Packs
The cold hard truth is though that this won't be changing. Any game with ongoing monetization is going to likely have a battlepass and a cash shop at the absolute minimum. I don't really care as long as it is not P2W or P2 Stash Tab. Also, judging by how successful these games have been....people just play games they enjoy and don't care about monetization very much at the end of the day. I mean, Diablo 4 has already sold like 10 million copies roughly and it has not even been out a month.
That addresses one side of it, but like the link illustrates the pricing point matters too, (highlighted by the comparison between similar goods in D4 and PoE even). For out-the-gate costs to be competitive with a matured shop and model is moving the goal posts on intended revenue.
This is something that can be seen in parallel with Immortal's launch and how Immortal's prices compared to it's contemporaries.
While D:IV is still nowhere near that level of egregious, it's also still not a great trend and is something to watch going forward.
Game plays and looks exactly like Diablo Immortal and is setting a crazy precedent for monetization. Hard pass for me.
You clearly didn't even play the game or know anything about the monetization for it if you think that it looks like Diablo Immortal or has comparable monetization. You're opinion is no longer valid.
While injecting hyperbole and placing things into extremes makes for flawed commentary, there are valid things to express concern over, especially if one does enjoy the game and is invested in it's long-term wellbeing.
Personally I don't have an issue with it unless there are more then 3 forms of monetization. For Diablo 4 it is: Box Price, Cash Shop, Battlepass. Borderline, but not a deal breaker. Meanwhile, PoE has the following: Lootboxes, Battlepass, Cash Shop, Supporter Packs
The cold hard truth is though that this won't be changing. Any game with ongoing monetization is going to likely have a battlepass and a cash shop at the absolute minimum. I don't really care as long as it is not P2W or P2 Stash Tab. Also, judging by how successful these games have been....people just play games they enjoy and don't care about monetization very much at the end of the day. I mean, Diablo 4 has already sold like 10 million copies roughly and it has not even been out a month.
That addresses one side of it, but like the link illustrates the pricing point matters too, (highlighted by the comparison between similar goods in D4 and PoE even). For out-the-gate costs to be competitive with a matured shop and model is moving the goal posts on intended revenue.
This is something that can be seen in parallel with Immortal's launch and how Immortal's prices compared to it's contemporaries.
While D:IV is still nowhere near that level of egregious, it's also still not a great trend and is something to watch going forward.
I am sorry but PoE throws the box price as an argument out the window by having 400+$ supporter packs.
Again, reality check here: We can watch it all we want. At the end of the day, it is a video game microtransaction for in game content of some kind, no one actually cares. The gaming industry has moved the goal post and will continue to move the goal post forward. I honestly don't give a shit at this point. If I am playing a game that I enjoy; monetization will never ruin it for me in 99% of circumstances. If for some reason it does change in the future and it does ruin a game for me, so what? I enjoyed it until I didn't. Not the end of the world.
I hadn't brought up box price specifically, but that would be part of things.
And by all means feel free to hold that as your opinion. If I were a more cynical person I'd point at it as part of the problem.
But for me personally, I still see there to be valid reason to hold developers and publishers accountable in the same way one would hold any other consumer industry accountable.
I hadn't brought up box price specifically, but that would be part of things.
I mean, if you are comparing specific things in the item shop. In order to get all the QoL features of PoE you have to spend about the cost of Diablo 4 in the cash shop. You also have 400$ armor sets in PoE that if you want you have to purchase their monster sized supporter packs. Not to mention the little thing we like to call, gambling loot boxes, which, imo, is the worst monetization you can have in any video game. 60$ is also the standard price point for an armor set in PoE (which does not include weapons) while 28$ is the most expensive armor set in D4 (which includes weapons)
I just find that everyone argues about this from a disingenuous, hypocritical perspective. Everyone has that one game, where they still play it, even with extreme monetization problems. Then they just go and attack every other game and try to pretend like they are on some morale high horse because they act like they are cool for not buying a red shirt in a video game as if they are going to win some internet prize. No one cares. People can play what they want and can spend what they want; we won't stop them by crying about it on one of the most niche forums about video games on the internet.
I play PoE and I have been playing D4. I think both have terrible monetization. Is it gonna stop me from playing them? No.
I'd point out the link has a breakdown of that, as well as an analysis of cost progression over time. Hence the point of bringing up out-the-gate costs, as that's not just talking about box price, but the pricing of commodities in general at start, which when compared to PoE at launch can be noted as higher.
You have to compare it to their cash shop years into the game's lifecycle for PoE for it to be higher.
Which then, when the initial costs are higher, and ABK's displayed trends across titles, what expectations are to be had about the game in the long term?
As to your hypocritical argument, feel free to look back in my own post history and find any point where I am hypocritical about this. An assumptive argument like this statement about hyperbole is often little more than a method of dismissing external or conflicting opinion in and of itself. Why not simply take the perspectives of others as just the perspective of others?
Monetization is an element that does bother me in the games I play, because there are many ways I perceive that it can affect my own play. Especially when I know the game is either withholding something, or making an intentionally worse experience just to incentivize pay. I'm most often more critical of the games I do or have played, because I inherently would rather comment on the things I am most familiar with rather than try and argue an unknown.
You don't have to care if you don't want to. Remember though, you're not everyone, and other people are still free to care.
You don't have to care if you don't want to. Remember though, you're not everyone, and other people are still free to care.
This is the disingenuous part. Maybe you are one of the VERY VERY FEW who argue from a morale high ground of never having an exception to the rules you apply to gaming monetization. I never claimed you were hypocritical; I just claim that most people who act like they are some righteous crusader fighting for the little guy against the big meanie game developers (who aren't even the ones at fault 90% for monetization decisions) when in reality they are just as excited to buy that new Destiny 2 expansion or PoE supporter pack as the next guy. The reason I know that most gamers are this way is pretty obvious. The whole strategy of the game's industry to monetize us through stuff like early access, battlepasses, loot boxes, ect WORKS. People can whine about this all they want, but at the end of the day...even if you play a F2P and don't spend a cent you are at fault for where the game industry is.
Once again; I don't give a shit about what form of monetization D4 is going to take in the future. If I am playing it and enjoying it; I will continue to play it and enjoy it. If I don't, I don't. Monetization could or could not have a baring on that decision. If people want to make changes they need to STOP PLAYING THESE GAMES AND STOP BUYING MICROTRANSACTIONS. Complaining about MTX doesn't matter at all if you are playing the game you are complaining about. This includes if you aren't spending money because you provide the value of the game to other players by merely existing. You are just a number on a spreadsheet. The only thing that matters to Bobby Kotick or Andrew Wilson is that you are a 1 on that spreadsheet and not a 0.
I made it to level 83 but can't see myself really going any higher because the grind just to get one more level is to dam boring.
Someone did an XP graphic that shows visually what the 75+ level grind requires. I personally also think that the XP requirements and XP earned at higher levels is way, way too grindy
Having said that, we won't know until the first season launches what they consider reasonable, average level achievements to complete seasons. If you can get all season achievements and battle pass unlocks by reaching level 70, that would be one thing and doable by a large portion of season players and would indicate that they consider going beyond that an option for a small portion of the player base.
But if the requirements for a complete season have you getting to 90+ that would be lunacy with the current XP curve. We shall see when the season details become known.
This is the chart:
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
I really want to play it, but at the $70.00 price tag and the cash shop makes it a hard sell for me at-least.
D3 is the same exact game, except it has more features. I would save your money until this is on the clearance rack at walmart next to the sims expansions.
The reviewer here obviously hasn't played any of this game or any of the previous series. It lacks features that were in both d2 and d3 at launch.
The cash shop is not a concern because no one is playing this game.
The queues were gone in the first week. Why this is in this review weeks later is beyond me.
Gameplay, the reviewer describes the healing effect with shields? I mean the clunky hidden global cd doesn't get a mention? The sorcs innability to become unstoppable to avoid the many end game ccs? Worried about who you see in game as opposed to the fact you can't group in game because there is no group function. This is some amateur paid shill scoring here.
Conclusion: The game is less than 4/10. Diablo isn't even in it.
You don't have to care if you don't want to. Remember though, you're not everyone, and other people are still free to care.
This is the disingenuous part. Maybe you are one of the VERY VERY FEW who argue from a morale high ground of never having an exception to the rules you apply to gaming monetization. I never claimed you were hypocritical; I just claim that most people who act like they are some righteous crusader fighting for the little guy against the big meanie game developers (who aren't even the ones at fault 90% for monetization decisions) when in reality they are just as excited to buy that new Destiny 2 expansion or PoE supporter pack as the next guy. The reason I know that most gamers are this way is pretty obvious. The whole strategy of the game's industry to monetize us through stuff like early access, battlepasses, loot boxes, ect WORKS. People can whine about this all they want, but at the end of the day...even if you play a F2P and don't spend a cent you are at fault for where the game industry is.
Once again; I don't give a shit about what form of monetization D4 is going to take in the future. If I am playing it and enjoying it; I will continue to play it and enjoy it. If I don't, I don't. Monetization could or could not have a baring on that decision. If people want to make changes they need to STOP PLAYING THESE GAMES AND STOP BUYING MICROTRANSACTIONS. Complaining about MTX doesn't matter at all if you are playing the game you are complaining about. You are just a number on a spreadsheet. The only thing that matters to Bobby Kotick or Andrew Wilson is that you are a 1 on that spreadsheet and not a 0.
Even by this rationale, what is the claim you're making meant to achieve? Does it serve any function beyond being a reason you've made to dismiss the opinions of others?
Certainly I could even agree with you and say that the average consumer is hypocritical.
And you know what? I could probably do that using D4 as a demonstration piece a month from now. The people saying they love the game now? When they're finally done playing and think about it, how more likely will they be to finally have the clarity to reflect on the issues they ran into while playing and give a more honest retrospective? For the one's still playing, Not so likely, but the ones that have moved on will have done so for a reason, and will have the opportunity to compare it to their current ideals and acknowledge it.
Very point I made on the last page. People don't have to LOVE a game to enjoy it. Hence the pointing at the ironic flip to the way you're presenting your argument, where the notion of complaining about this game at all has already garnered hyperbolic 'haters' comments multiple times.
And what's the point of advocating a boycott in a vacuum? Talking about the bad practices in a title is the only way to propagate understanding of them. The "vote with your wallet" argument only extends as far as the self, and then what? That doesn't provide any others with insight or rationale, nor does it stop a company from advertising as it wants.
This is a point in case with Diablo Immortal. The only reason anyone was aware of their poor monetization and ludicrously expensive gacha style practices was because of individuals commenting on it, because ABK sure as hell was avoiding showing off or drawing any sort of attention to it both pre and post-launch. Do you mean to say people should just shut up and let people find this sort of thing out on their own, only learning about such things after investing time and money?
Is that the change being argued for here?
You don't have to give a shit. You also don't have to be against others giving a shit.
The sorcs innability to become unstoppable to avoid the many end game ccs?
Immunity is unstoppable+ and you get that from flame shield. Teleport is also usable when CC'd so that's a second way to deal with it.
Yeah, sors and necros are lacking in unstoppable counters compared to other classes that have it in abundance but it's not a flat "inability" as you claim.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Blood Mist is that for necros. Tooltip doesn't mention it, but it is usable when CC'd to break stun/hold in addition to it's temp invuln and life steal.
Necros also have conditional means of drawing damage and focus away from themselves with pets like the bone golem's taunt. Plus they have a lot of CC options as their offset.
This is a point in case with Diablo Immortal. The only reason anyone was aware of their poor monetization and ludicrously expensive gacha style practices was because of individuals commenting on it, because ABK sure as hell was avoiding showing off or drawing any sort of attention to it both pre and post-launch.
I promise you that anyone who looks at the MMORPG forums or reddit already knew what kind of monetization was going to be in Diablo Immortal. It also isn't like people couldn't just play the game and see it for themselves...it was free to play after all. Diablo Immortal is also a perfect example of people crying about it not changing a thing. Diablo Immortal just celebrated it's one year anniversary and has arguably gotten as much content over the past year as any other live service game. What happened when people cried about it? Nothing. You know why? People still played it.
The difference between me and you is that if I play a game for a month and have a great time playing it, then IF they monetize it in a way that ruins the experience for me; I still got to enjoy it for that month and you just get a couple of internet points for being some random guy who told me so while not playing the game. Who wins in that scenario? The guy who enjoyed the game for a month to then find they no longer enjoy the game -- or the guy who sat on the side lines not enjoying the game for that month just so they could say "I told you so!" at the end of it?
This is a point in case with Diablo Immortal. The only reason anyone was aware of their poor monetization and ludicrously expensive gacha style practices was because of individuals commenting on it, because ABK sure as hell was avoiding showing off or drawing any sort of attention to it both pre and post-launch.
I promise you that anyone who looks at the MMORPG forums or reddit already knew what kind of monetization was going to be in Diablo Immortal. It also isn't like people couldn't just play the game and see it for themselves...it was free to play after all. Diablo Immortal is also a perfect example of people crying about it not changing a thing. Diablo Immortal just celebrated it's one year anniversary and has arguably gotten as much content over the past year as any other live service game. What happened when people cried about it? Nothing. You know why? People still played it.
The difference between me and you is that if I play a game for a month and have a great time playing it, then they monetize it in a way that ruins the experience for me; I still got to enjoy it for that month and you just get a couple of internet points for being some random guy who told me so while not playing the game. Who wins in that scenario? The guy who enjoyed the game for a month to then find they no longer enjoy the game -- or the guy who sat on the side lines not enjoying the game for that month just so they could say "I told you so!" at the end of it?
And so your solution is to complain at length about people who complain about such business practices?
I don't know if I should use the word "genius" or not...
When you have individual players paying 1mil or more, what's the expected outcome for Immortal? The fact it's got ~500 mil a year later in spite of being literally hundreds of times more costly than other gacha games like Genshin, kind of itself speaks to a smaller heavy-spending community. It's not exactly easy to dissuade whales from being whales in games made to cater to whales, but there is merit to making general consumers more conscious.
And it seems you didn't regard my prior statements too well given your assumptions in this one.
To restate;
"Monetization is an element that does bother me in the games I play, because there are many ways I perceive that it can affect my own play. Especially when I know the game is either withholding something, or making an intentionally worse experience just to incentivize pay. I'm most often more critical of the games I do or have played, because I inherently would rather comment on the things I am most familiar with rather than try and argue an unknown."
If I play a game I enjoy, I don't want to see that game to get worse, I want it to get better. I want others to be able to enjoy it.
I'm not going to use hyperbolic assumptions about others in the process to try and hold such a position or assert it in a manner that tells someone they have to feel a certain way.
If you like the game then good for you. If someone else doesn't like the game, or has issues with a certain element of the game, that's their prerogative and they are just as free to express that perspective.
Does attacking the opinions of others make you enjoy the game more?
This is a point in case with Diablo Immortal. The only reason anyone was aware of their poor monetization and ludicrously expensive gacha style practices was because of individuals commenting on it, because ABK sure as hell was avoiding showing off or drawing any sort of attention to it both pre and post-launch.
I promise you that anyone who looks at the MMORPG forums or reddit already knew what kind of monetization was going to be in Diablo Immortal. It also isn't like people couldn't just play the game and see it for themselves...it was free to play after all. Diablo Immortal is also a perfect example of people crying about it not changing a thing. Diablo Immortal just celebrated it's one year anniversary and has arguably gotten as much content over the past year as any other live service game. What happened when people cried about it? Nothing. You know why? People still played it.
The difference between me and you is that if I play a game for a month and have a great time playing it, then they monetize it in a way that ruins the experience for me; I still got to enjoy it for that month and you just get a couple of internet points for being some random guy who told me so while not playing the game. Who wins in that scenario? The guy who enjoyed the game for a month to then find they no longer enjoy the game -- or the guy who sat on the side lines not enjoying the game for that month just so they could say "I told you so!" at the end of it?
And so your solution is to complain at length about people who complain about such business practices?
I don't know if I should use the word "genius" or not...
Absolutely! If even one person in this thread looks at this and says "oh hey, maybe all this whining IS useless" I am happy. It doesn't have to be this thread either, it can be anywhere. My solution is also to NOT BUY OR PLAY GAMES YOU DON'T LIKE THE MONETIZATION OF though. That is literally the only way to stop it. I thought that was pretty clear; guess not.
Blood Mist is that for necros. Tooltip doesn't mention it, but it is usable when CC'd to break stun/hold in addition to it's temp invuln and life steal.
Necros also have conditional means of drawing damage and focus away from themselves with pets like the bone golem's taunt. Plus they have a lot of CC options as their offset.
Yeah, I tested both Mist Form on my necro and Flame Shield on my sorc with the Ghostwalker aspect that increases your moving speed while unstoppable and for 4 seconds after and it works with both of those skills.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
This is a point in case with Diablo Immortal. The only reason anyone was aware of their poor monetization and ludicrously expensive gacha style practices was because of individuals commenting on it, because ABK sure as hell was avoiding showing off or drawing any sort of attention to it both pre and post-launch.
I promise you that anyone who looks at the MMORPG forums or reddit already knew what kind of monetization was going to be in Diablo Immortal. It also isn't like people couldn't just play the game and see it for themselves...it was free to play after all. Diablo Immortal is also a perfect example of people crying about it not changing a thing. Diablo Immortal just celebrated it's one year anniversary and has arguably gotten as much content over the past year as any other live service game. What happened when people cried about it? Nothing. You know why? People still played it.
The difference between me and you is that if I play a game for a month and have a great time playing it, then they monetize it in a way that ruins the experience for me; I still got to enjoy it for that month and you just get a couple of internet points for being some random guy who told me so while not playing the game. Who wins in that scenario? The guy who enjoyed the game for a month to then find they no longer enjoy the game -- or the guy who sat on the side lines not enjoying the game for that month just so they could say "I told you so!" at the end of it?
And so your solution is to complain at length about people who complain about such business practices?
I don't know if I should use the word "genius" or not...
Absolutely! If even one person in this thread looks at this and says "oh hey, maybe all this whining IS useless" I am happy. It doesn't have to be this thread either, it can be anywhere. My solution is also to NOT BUY OR PLAY GAMES YOU DON'T LIKE THE MONETIZATION OF though. That is literally the only way to stop it. I thought that was pretty clear; guess not.
Addressed elements of this already in edit, but also have to address the Catch 22 created by this statement.
Something that was itself already addressed, and ironically in a way acknowledged by you.
When games don't advertise their monetization model and bury the lead, most consumers will not be conscious of what the costs of investing into such a title are before already investing at least some into a game. That's part of the whole point of F2P is pushing people towards sunk cost scenarios.
So, don't buy games you don't like the monetization of? Alright, and how do people become conscious of that. Well as you stated in the case of Immortal plenty of peeps on here and reddit apparently were aware of it...and how?
Oh yeah, others posted links and information about it to press the discussion of that factor.
People making decisions in a void are not going to have the tools for making good, independent decisions. Awareness matters.
I'm not going to be reductive towards the differing opinions of others as a result.
This is a point in case with Diablo Immortal. The only reason anyone was aware of their poor monetization and ludicrously expensive gacha style practices was because of individuals commenting on it, because ABK sure as hell was avoiding showing off or drawing any sort of attention to it both pre and post-launch.
I promise you that anyone who looks at the MMORPG forums or reddit already knew what kind of monetization was going to be in Diablo Immortal. It also isn't like people couldn't just play the game and see it for themselves...it was free to play after all. Diablo Immortal is also a perfect example of people crying about it not changing a thing. Diablo Immortal just celebrated it's one year anniversary and has arguably gotten as much content over the past year as any other live service game. What happened when people cried about it? Nothing. You know why? People still played it.
The difference between me and you is that if I play a game for a month and have a great time playing it, then they monetize it in a way that ruins the experience for me; I still got to enjoy it for that month and you just get a couple of internet points for being some random guy who told me so while not playing the game. Who wins in that scenario? The guy who enjoyed the game for a month to then find they no longer enjoy the game -- or the guy who sat on the side lines not enjoying the game for that month just so they could say "I told you so!" at the end of it?
And so your solution is to complain at length about people who complain about such business practices?
I don't know if I should use the word "genius" or not...
Absolutely! If even one person in this thread looks at this and says "oh hey, maybe all this whining IS useless" I am happy. It doesn't have to be this thread either, it can be anywhere. My solution is also to NOT BUY OR PLAY GAMES YOU DON'T LIKE THE MONETIZATION OF though. That is literally the only way to stop it. I thought that was pretty clear; guess not.
Addressed elements of this already in edit, but also have to address the Catch 22 created by this statement.
Something that was itself already addressed, and ironically in a way acknowledged by you.
When games don't advertise their monetization model and bury the lead, most consumers will not be conscious of what the costs of investing into such a title are before already investing at least some into a game. That's part of the whole point of F2P is pushing people towards sunk cost scenarios.
So, don't buy games you don't like the monetization of? Alright, and how do people become conscious of that. Well as you stated in the case of Immortal plenty of peeps on here and reddit apparently were aware of it...and how?
Oh yeah, others posted links and information about it to press the discussion of that factor.
People making decisions in a void are not going to have the tools for making good, independent decisions. Awareness matters.
I'm not going to be reductive towards the differing opinions of others as a result.
Sure you are right in that some information being out there is a result of people posting it, but I still hold steadfast in that people who complain endlessly about monetization are typically the same people who they themselves participate in it. Regardless of how we get the information though, the end of the day, if we buy it, they will keep doing it. Call it a catch 22, but again, it is our fault for letting it get to this point by buying into it in the first place. I will be reductive as hell towards it because people who complain endlessly about monetization in video games are often the ones who are least impacted by it and throw out words like "predatory monetization" when there aren't even loot boxes involved. Stuff like FOMO might be horrible, but would you call a sale that lasts 3 days at the super market predatory? Probably not. In the same way, I wouldn't call something like 3 days of early access predatory.
This is a point in case with Diablo Immortal. The only reason anyone was aware of their poor monetization and ludicrously expensive gacha style practices was because of individuals commenting on it, because ABK sure as hell was avoiding showing off or drawing any sort of attention to it both pre and post-launch.
I promise you that anyone who looks at the MMORPG forums or reddit already knew what kind of monetization was going to be in Diablo Immortal. It also isn't like people couldn't just play the game and see it for themselves...it was free to play after all. Diablo Immortal is also a perfect example of people crying about it not changing a thing. Diablo Immortal just celebrated it's one year anniversary and has arguably gotten as much content over the past year as any other live service game. What happened when people cried about it? Nothing. You know why? People still played it.
The difference between me and you is that if I play a game for a month and have a great time playing it, then they monetize it in a way that ruins the experience for me; I still got to enjoy it for that month and you just get a couple of internet points for being some random guy who told me so while not playing the game. Who wins in that scenario? The guy who enjoyed the game for a month to then find they no longer enjoy the game -- or the guy who sat on the side lines not enjoying the game for that month just so they could say "I told you so!" at the end of it?
And so your solution is to complain at length about people who complain about such business practices?
I don't know if I should use the word "genius" or not...
Absolutely! If even one person in this thread looks at this and says "oh hey, maybe all this whining IS useless" I am happy. It doesn't have to be this thread either, it can be anywhere. My solution is also to NOT BUY OR PLAY GAMES YOU DON'T LIKE THE MONETIZATION OF though. That is literally the only way to stop it. I thought that was pretty clear; guess not.
Addressed elements of this already in edit, but also have to address the Catch 22 created by this statement.
Something that was itself already addressed, and ironically in a way acknowledged by you.
When games don't advertise their monetization model and bury the lead, most consumers will not be conscious of what the costs of investing into such a title are before already investing at least some into a game. That's part of the whole point of F2P is pushing people towards sunk cost scenarios.
So, don't buy games you don't like the monetization of? Alright, and how do people become conscious of that. Well as you stated in the case of Immortal plenty of peeps on here and reddit apparently were aware of it...and how?
Oh yeah, others posted links and information about it to press the discussion of that factor.
People making decisions in a void are not going to have the tools for making good, independent decisions. Awareness matters.
I'm not going to be reductive towards the differing opinions of others as a result.
Sure you are right in that some information being out there is a result of people posting it, but I still hold steadfast in that people who complain endlessly about monetization are typically the same people who they themselves participate in it. Regardless of how we get the information though, the end of the day, if we buy it, they will keep doing it. Call it a catch 22, but again, it is our fault for letting it get to this point by buying into it in the first place. I will be reductive as hell towards it because people who complain endlessly about monetization in video games are often the ones who are least impacted by it and throw out words like "predatory monetization" when there aren't even loot boxes involved.
Given I do not share in the assumptions you make about others, can't say I can agree with that perspective.
In part, yes it is the fault of at least some consumers for the trends in monetization. However, part of that drift is to monetize less people for more money. Rest of the time it's nickel and dime.
To which again, when a game buries the lead in terms of cost, what do consumers have they can rely on before being caught up in sunk cost. People here have even commented on how freebies in games ties into that by giving you premium and shop goods in games that give you an incentive around further consumption.
You can't see the merit in a person that speaks from experience on not buying into something?
It's notable that this comment of yours again bases itself on making a broad assumptive assertion about others. I'm simply unwilling to do that, not without a substantiating element to back it.
Similarly, what's with the hyperbolic examples of game elements? Is that what people are claiming? Where? What's actually been said?
It's easy to dismiss things when they are reductively turned into generic hyperbolic remarks. However, there is something to be said about your early statement of dishonesty and hypocrisy for doing so.
I am not sure any game should get as high as a 9.5, that's partly due to how I think scoring systems should work and the score inflation we have seen ever since scores went from a few magazines to loads of gaming websites. The game is clearly good though, it deserved a very high score.
To those who say the review is short, you are forgetting there was a pre-review and many sites gave the game a score before the game had launched! We don't just need reviews for players who buy before the game even launches, indeed do players like that even bother with reviews before they buy?
Most of the concerns mentioned by posters revolve around end game and direction. We are seeing this increasingly in new MMO releases. End game has always been an issue, my guess would be that we are increasingly seeing this because games are increasingly being brought out too early. As to the feeling of a lack of direction, I think that is being caused by two factors. Modern games are catering more and more for the casual, and casuals only need a casual sense of direction, but more than that studios do try to hold up the game for the more committed player, so you get a mish mash of play styles which do not seem to have a focused direction.
The way solo/multiplayer is being handled was intriguing, how do you handle it better? I suppose you could have players only appear an area when you go though a "gate", a demarked area like entering/exiting a town. This is an immersion issue and here I lean to the gameplay side, whatever is best for gameplay. I could put up with players popping in and out. Can you group in solo or is it just grouping by being associate by location quests?
I really want to play it, but at the $70.00 price tag and the cash shop makes it a hard sell for me at-least.
In all honesty - if I had to review the cash shop at the moment, I would say the cosmetics are "meh" and I really wouldn't even spend $2 on them! Thankfully that means you don't even need to look at the cash shop, as it won't affect your journey in any way. TBH the loot you pick up is quite cool as it is! I've always felt i prefer the in-game transmogs (skins) which you earn from salavging gear than what I see in the shop
Once season one hits - the cash shop will then expand to add in the battlepass, and presumably the ability to unlock ranks of the battlepass with money.
Honestly, right now this seems to be the norm, and as season one is launched in about two to three weeks, you have plenty of time to dip into the game - experience the story, the gameplay and make your own decision.
If you are a huge fan of ARP(MMO)G which is what I feel D4 is - I can easily predict you will get a good 70 to 100 hours out of the game. In this day and age, that's alot of value for $70, compared to other titles at least!
Glad to see that this site reviewer is also on the same page as me. In my opinion, Diablo 4 raise the standard for "classic genre" by a lot. The game has a good story, one of the best core gameplay out there for Isometric ARPG genre, also the combination between character skillset & item that resulted in tons of build that actually work (even on T4 of course, still working on the Druid companion build btw ).
And then we have the scaling system which beautifully integrated to the game (not half baked) which make every place in D4 worth visiting due to it's challenge and loot ofc. Instead of just camping on the 10% content like many other game (*cough lost ark *cough).
Overall, i like nearly everything on D4 (except that crappy $$ costume microtransaction, i mean why add average costume while your ingame costume design are super good anyway). Keep up to the good work Blizzard, and i hope we got more "Team based" content in this game later on.
Is a 9.5 a bit high? Yeah, probably. But my group is still playing it semi-obsessively since launch. On my 3rd character level 60+ and yeah, it's getting to be a bit of a slog redoing stuff but we keep finding some new stuff to do as well.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Comments
I feel like they scored it as a disposable game and not one designed to keep you playing a long time.
Personally I don't have an issue with it unless there are more then 3 forms of monetization. For Diablo 4 it is: Box Price, Cash Shop, Battlepass. Borderline, but not a deal breaker. Meanwhile, PoE has the following: Lootboxes, Battlepass, Cash Shop, Supporter Packs
The cold hard truth is though that this won't be changing. Any game with ongoing monetization is going to likely have a battlepass and a cash shop at the absolute minimum. I don't really care as long as it is not P2W or P2 Stash Tab. Also, judging by how successful these games have been....people just play games they enjoy and don't care about monetization very much at the end of the day. I mean, Diablo 4 has already sold like 10 million copies roughly and it has not even been out a month.
This is something that can be seen in parallel with Immortal's launch and how Immortal's prices compared to it's contemporaries.
While D:IV is still nowhere near that level of egregious, it's also still not a great trend and is something to watch going forward.
Again, reality check here: We can watch it all we want. At the end of the day, it is a video game microtransaction for in game content of some kind, no one actually cares. The gaming industry has moved the goal post and will continue to move the goal post forward. I honestly don't give a shit at this point. If I am playing a game that I enjoy; monetization will never ruin it for me in 99% of circumstances. If for some reason it does change in the future and it does ruin a game for me, so what? I enjoyed it until I didn't. Not the end of the world.
And by all means feel free to hold that as your opinion. If I were a more cynical person I'd point at it as part of the problem.
But for me personally, I still see there to be valid reason to hold developers and publishers accountable in the same way one would hold any other consumer industry accountable.
I just find that everyone argues about this from a disingenuous, hypocritical perspective. Everyone has that one game, where they still play it, even with extreme monetization problems. Then they just go and attack every other game and try to pretend like they are on some morale high horse because they act like they are cool for not buying a red shirt in a video game as if they are going to win some internet prize. No one cares. People can play what they want and can spend what they want; we won't stop them by crying about it on one of the most niche forums about video games on the internet.
I play PoE and I have been playing D4. I think both have terrible monetization. Is it gonna stop me from playing them? No.
You have to compare it to their cash shop years into the game's lifecycle for PoE for it to be higher.
Which then, when the initial costs are higher, and ABK's displayed trends across titles, what expectations are to be had about the game in the long term?
As to your hypocritical argument, feel free to look back in my own post history and find any point where I am hypocritical about this. An assumptive argument like this statement about hyperbole is often little more than a method of dismissing external or conflicting opinion in and of itself. Why not simply take the perspectives of others as just the perspective of others?
Monetization is an element that does bother me in the games I play, because there are many ways I perceive that it can affect my own play. Especially when I know the game is either withholding something, or making an intentionally worse experience just to incentivize pay. I'm most often more critical of the games I do or have played, because I inherently would rather comment on the things I am most familiar with rather than try and argue an unknown.
You don't have to care if you don't want to. Remember though, you're not everyone, and other people are still free to care.
Once again; I don't give a shit about what form of monetization D4 is going to take in the future. If I am playing it and enjoying it; I will continue to play it and enjoy it. If I don't, I don't. Monetization could or could not have a baring on that decision. If people want to make changes they need to STOP PLAYING THESE GAMES AND STOP BUYING MICROTRANSACTIONS. Complaining about MTX doesn't matter at all if you are playing the game you are complaining about. This includes if you aren't spending money because you provide the value of the game to other players by merely existing. You are just a number on a spreadsheet. The only thing that matters to Bobby Kotick or Andrew Wilson is that you are a 1 on that spreadsheet and not a 0.
Having said that, we won't know until the first season launches what they consider reasonable, average level achievements to complete seasons. If you can get all season achievements and battle pass unlocks by reaching level 70, that would be one thing and doable by a large portion of season players and would indicate that they consider going beyond that an option for a small portion of the player base.
But if the requirements for a complete season have you getting to 90+ that would be lunacy with the current XP curve. We shall see when the season details become known.
This is the chart:
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
D3 is the same exact game, except it has more features. I would save your money until this is on the clearance rack at walmart next to the sims expansions.
The reviewer here obviously hasn't played any of this game or any of the previous series. It lacks features that were in both d2 and d3 at launch.
The cash shop is not a concern because no one is playing this game.
The queues were gone in the first week. Why this is in this review weeks later is beyond me.
Gameplay, the reviewer describes the healing effect with shields? I mean the clunky hidden global cd doesn't get a mention? The sorcs innability to become unstoppable to avoid the many end game ccs? Worried about who you see in game as opposed to the fact you can't group in game because there is no group function. This is some amateur paid shill scoring here.
Conclusion: The game is less than 4/10. Diablo isn't even in it.
Certainly I could even agree with you and say that the average consumer is hypocritical.
And you know what? I could probably do that using D4 as a demonstration piece a month from now. The people saying they love the game now? When they're finally done playing and think about it, how more likely will they be to finally have the clarity to reflect on the issues they ran into while playing and give a more honest retrospective? For the one's still playing, Not so likely, but the ones that have moved on will have done so for a reason, and will have the opportunity to compare it to their current ideals and acknowledge it.
Very point I made on the last page. People don't have to LOVE a game to enjoy it. Hence the pointing at the ironic flip to the way you're presenting your argument, where the notion of complaining about this game at all has already garnered hyperbolic 'haters' comments multiple times.
And what's the point of advocating a boycott in a vacuum? Talking about the bad practices in a title is the only way to propagate understanding of them. The "vote with your wallet" argument only extends as far as the self, and then what? That doesn't provide any others with insight or rationale, nor does it stop a company from advertising as it wants.
This is a point in case with Diablo Immortal. The only reason anyone was aware of their poor monetization and ludicrously expensive gacha style practices was because of individuals commenting on it, because ABK sure as hell was avoiding showing off or drawing any sort of attention to it both pre and post-launch. Do you mean to say people should just shut up and let people find this sort of thing out on their own, only learning about such things after investing time and money?
Is that the change being argued for here?
You don't have to give a shit. You also don't have to be against others giving a shit.
Yeah, sors and necros are lacking in unstoppable counters compared to other classes that have it in abundance but it's not a flat "inability" as you claim.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Necros also have conditional means of drawing damage and focus away from themselves with pets like the bone golem's taunt. Plus they have a lot of CC options as their offset.
The difference between me and you is that if I play a game for a month and have a great time playing it, then IF they monetize it in a way that ruins the experience for me; I still got to enjoy it for that month and you just get a couple of internet points for being some random guy who told me so while not playing the game. Who wins in that scenario? The guy who enjoyed the game for a month to then find they no longer enjoy the game -- or the guy who sat on the side lines not enjoying the game for that month just so they could say "I told you so!" at the end of it?
I don't know if I should use the word "genius" or not...
When you have individual players paying 1mil or more, what's the expected outcome for Immortal? The fact it's got ~500 mil a year later in spite of being literally hundreds of times more costly than other gacha games like Genshin, kind of itself speaks to a smaller heavy-spending community. It's not exactly easy to dissuade whales from being whales in games made to cater to whales, but there is merit to making general consumers more conscious.
And it seems you didn't regard my prior statements too well given your assumptions in this one.
To restate;
"Monetization is an element that does bother me in the games I play, because there are many ways I perceive that it can affect my own play. Especially when I know the game is either withholding something, or making an intentionally worse experience just to incentivize pay. I'm most often more critical of the games I do or have played, because I inherently would rather comment on the things I am most familiar with rather than try and argue an unknown."
If I play a game I enjoy, I don't want to see that game to get worse, I want it to get better. I want others to be able to enjoy it.
I'm not going to use hyperbolic assumptions about others in the process to try and hold such a position or assert it in a manner that tells someone they have to feel a certain way.
If you like the game then good for you. If someone else doesn't like the game, or has issues with a certain element of the game, that's their prerogative and they are just as free to express that perspective.
Does attacking the opinions of others make you enjoy the game more?
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Something that was itself already addressed, and ironically in a way acknowledged by you.
When games don't advertise their monetization model and bury the lead, most consumers will not be conscious of what the costs of investing into such a title are before already investing at least some into a game. That's part of the whole point of F2P is pushing people towards sunk cost scenarios.
So, don't buy games you don't like the monetization of? Alright, and how do people become conscious of that. Well as you stated in the case of Immortal plenty of peeps on here and reddit apparently were aware of it...and how?
Oh yeah, others posted links and information about it to press the discussion of that factor.
People making decisions in a void are not going to have the tools for making good, independent decisions. Awareness matters.
I'm not going to be reductive towards the differing opinions of others as a result.
In part, yes it is the fault of at least some consumers for the trends in monetization. However, part of that drift is to monetize less people for more money. Rest of the time it's nickel and dime.
To which again, when a game buries the lead in terms of cost, what do consumers have they can rely on before being caught up in sunk cost. People here have even commented on how freebies in games ties into that by giving you premium and shop goods in games that give you an incentive around further consumption.
You can't see the merit in a person that speaks from experience on not buying into something?
It's notable that this comment of yours again bases itself on making a broad assumptive assertion about others. I'm simply unwilling to do that, not without a substantiating element to back it.
Similarly, what's with the hyperbolic examples of game elements? Is that what people are claiming? Where? What's actually been said?
It's easy to dismiss things when they are reductively turned into generic hyperbolic remarks. However, there is something to be said about your early statement of dishonesty and hypocrisy for doing so.
To those who say the review is short, you are forgetting there was a pre-review and many sites gave the game a score before the game had launched! We don't just need reviews for players who buy before the game even launches, indeed do players like that even bother with reviews before they buy?
Most of the concerns mentioned by posters revolve around end game and direction. We are seeing this increasingly in new MMO releases. End game has always been an issue, my guess would be that we are increasingly seeing this because games are increasingly being brought out too early. As to the feeling of a lack of direction, I think that is being caused by two factors. Modern games are catering more and more for the casual, and casuals only need a casual sense of direction, but more than that studios do try to hold up the game for the more committed player, so you get a mish mash of play styles which do not seem to have a focused direction.
The way solo/multiplayer is being handled was intriguing, how do you handle it better? I suppose you could have players only appear an area when you go though a "gate", a demarked area like entering/exiting a town. This is an immersion issue and here I lean to the gameplay side, whatever is best for gameplay. I could put up with players popping in and out. Can you group in solo or is it just grouping by being associate by location quests?
In all honesty - if I had to review the cash shop at the moment, I would say the cosmetics are "meh" and I really wouldn't even spend $2 on them! Thankfully that means you don't even need to look at the cash shop, as it won't affect your journey in any way. TBH the loot you pick up is quite cool as it is! I've always felt i prefer the in-game transmogs (skins) which you earn from salavging gear than what I see in the shop
Once season one hits - the cash shop will then expand to add in the battlepass, and presumably the ability to unlock ranks of the battlepass with money.
Honestly, right now this seems to be the norm, and as season one is launched in about two to three weeks, you have plenty of time to dip into the game - experience the story, the gameplay and make your own decision.
If you are a huge fan of ARP(MMO)G which is what I feel D4 is - I can easily predict you will get a good 70 to 100 hours out of the game. In this day and age, that's alot of value for $70, compared to other titles at least!
And then we have the scaling system which beautifully integrated to the game (not half baked) which make every place in D4 worth visiting due to it's challenge and loot ofc. Instead of just camping on the 10% content like many other game (*cough lost ark *cough).
Overall, i like nearly everything on D4 (except that crappy $$ costume microtransaction, i mean why add average costume while your ingame costume design are super good anyway). Keep up to the good work Blizzard, and i hope we got more "Team based" content in this game later on.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
but it becomes a bore real fast.
i'd give it a 6-7