Is it important to you that Developers play their own game?

Dattelis · July 2023

When I ask about developer's playing their own game, I dont mean showing off features in a stream or talking about past development stuff. I mean actually playing their game and understanding certain dynamics about their game that add weight to developmental decisions. A prime example used to be Ghostcrawler back in the day when he worked at Blizzard. Love him or hate him, he was a guy you could obviously tell was playing the game he helped design. He would oftain post and keep his ear in on what people were griping about and officially address it in a blue post while also giving his logic behind choices and how things may have differed in the past.

The only developer I honestly feels plays their own game is Yoshida of FF14. The guy obviously doesn't do high end content but he does play his own game and admittedly plays WoW. This can be reflected upon in certain types of content that come out which usually favor a more casual crowd (some hitting, some missing).

Those are just my personal opinion of examples and I'm sure others have their own in regards to maybe GW2/Albion/ESO/etc. I'm mainly bringing this up because personally, it makes me feel connected to the game and community more when you see the development team (or parts of it) actually sounding like gamers who play their own game.

Let me know your thoughts and maybe the reason you feel its important/not important. Maybe even some times you remember developers acting like gamers that stuck with you.

Angrakhan · July 2023

Depends what you mean by "developer" I guess. I find gamers lump anyone working at a game studio a "developer" as opposed to the folks actually writing code who are, in fact, developers.

I would hope the game designers (who may or may not write code) actively play their own game a lot. I don't see how they can make informed decisions about the systems and adjustments they are making to the game otherwise. I mean if you just rely on forum feedback then you're just chasing the squeaky wheel which may or may not be factual information. Everyone thinks their class in underpowered and some other class is overpowered. You gotta take feedback with a grain of salt and there's no better way to determine what's what than to put your hands on your game and see. You bored and frustrated? Guess what, so is your player base.

Now do I think the rank and file coders need to be playing the game? It doesn't hurt but isn't necessary as long as they're putting out code that matches the designer's vision. Same thing for artists, musicians, HR, janitorial staff, or whatever else you might lump into the "developer" bucket.

Dibdabs · July 2023

In all honesty, it SHOULD matter, but that's assuming whoever plays the game that their company produces can cast a critical eye on what they're playing. Then, they have to be able to give useful input to the company to change things for the better. As seen from the number of shit games that have been released lately it seems obvious that either the people who play are convinced the game is fantastic or they're too scared to make waves and maybe risk their job.

Wargfoot · July 2023

It is probably important for a developer to play lots of games.

DigDuggy · July 2023

It would help them understand the practical good/bad things about their game outside of testing. Honestly, though, I don't care unless the are trading of killing me.

nate1980 · July 2023

While it'd be nice if they did, I don't expect them to. Gaming is a hobby that not everyone has time for. People get married, have kids, have social obligations, and other hobbies.

I no more expect them to play their own game than I expect factory workers to drive the cars they make, or the appliances or products they build.

Iselin · July 2023

It's important to me that developers improve their games when they make changes. How they get the expert knowledge to do good work, be it by playing the game, data analysis, listening to trusted sources, or whatever, makes zero difference to me.

olepi · July 2023

Most of who we would call "developers" don't need to play the game they are working on. Let's say I'm a database developer, my job is to make sure that transactions are fast and secure, with no errors. It doesn't matter at all what the particular data is, as long as my database can store and retrieve it accurately and efficiently. Swords, dinosaur eggs, cars, it makes no difference.

Or maybe I'm a graphics designer, creating 3-D models for animals in the game. Do I need to play the game to do my job? No. I just need to have a list of animals to model, and the required actions.

Musical creator? Network coder? Login and account processing? None of these need to play the game.

The game's architects do need to play, to at least understand how the game flows and which systems work well and which ones don't. The architects, or maybe they are called creative and story directors, do need to play their game enough to know if it is good or not.

Most of the other functions can be outsourced and the people doing the database, network code, 3-D graphics, music, etc, may never even see the game they are working on.

ValdemarJ · July 2023

Wargfoot said:

It is probably important for a developer to play lots of games.

Agreed, and the few I know do just that. There are all sorts of roles in game and software development and all the people I know who work in that industry play games.

Personally, if they don't primarily play their own games at leisure time, I don't care. I might not either, especially at larger more corporate studios.

On the other hand dog-fooding is a thing that has been shown to have positive benefits to software development. So, I do expect there to be people, specifically in design, that would play and engage with the stuff they're building. And in 20+ years of experience doing pre-release volunteer testing (alpha, beta, whatevs) they all do that.

Sovrath · July 2023

As it has been said, some developers don't need to play their games. The people who are responsible for the game play, how it feels to be in the game, how encounters play out most likely play their games.

When I was making my skyrim mod (stay tuned for a large update!) I finally went in game and it was a hoot I tells ya! A very different experience to finally walk the halls as opposed to looking at the halls and rooms from a god's eye view.

However, after a while I realized the flow felt wrong. A lot felt wrong actually. I felt that the hub area came too quickly and that no flavor or "feeling" was really established. I also felt that the rooms were too linear (flow) and I'd go to one room, the straight to the next, then straight to the next.

It was at that point I created a new entrance and a new "pre-dungeon to inform the player of the dangers, how things would go down, some flavor for some of the books, etc. I removed a room that was in the "linear flow of rooms" and added starter section to the hub and then put that room off to the side of the starter section.

As I did these things it felt much better to go through it. Not a linear walk in a straight line but a space one could explore.

So the people who are in charge of the player experience need and probably do play their games.

olepi · July 2023

A true story -- Motorola wanted to develop a satellite phone system in the late 1980's, called Iridium. They launched over 60 satellites over 10 years and spent over $5 Billion dollars. The phone actually did work.

Then a VP wanted to see how it worked, and he discovered that the phone didn't work inside buildings, was far too large and bulky, and was way too expensive. It was a commercial failure. It did meet the specs, but apparently nobody really tried it as a phone until it was finished. One of the largest bankruptices in tech history.

https://content.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,1898610_1898625_1898640,00.html

Moral of the story: just meeting the specs isn't enough. You have to actually try to use it in real life to see if it is any good.

mekhere · July 2023

This is a very sensitive subject. When a developer plays their own game, they make friends with their communities. They start to play the game outside of work and then tend to rebalance, or as they say nerf overpowered classes to favor the PvP in their realms favor. This happened back when EQ, DAOC, and other PC games were popular. It can be a great thing to balance the game, but it does backfire. They can and will nerf classes to help themselves and their friends. If you ever request the guidance of a dev, approach it like a workplace relationship. Do not get that close to it inside the game. You'll go down with it when it gets caught cheating.

Utinni · July 2023

Incredibly important to understanding your game. Unfortunately requiring that the devs be proficient in the game they work on has already gone to court and lost as discrimination.

Cactus_LFRez · July 2023

I am not sure developers could really ever play their own game in the way a player would, since they know all the background information and how certain mechanics work.
Which is why even a dev active in the game will have a different perspective than regular players.

That said, devs should always be playing the game while in the development stage and afterward, like a chef tasting the food.

Scot · July 2023

I don't want to make out we have some sort of superior discourse here, but I think the most important thing for developers to do may be to read forums about games similar to the one they are making. We see so many booby basic mistakes made again and again, so many great new systems that never see the light of day again, developers check those forums.

And yes, I do think they should play but only up to a point as I assume you are talking for them doing this in work time.

Sovrath · July 2023

Scot said:

I don't want to make out we have some sort of superior discourse here, but I think the most important thing for developers to do may be to read forums about games similar to the one they are making. We see so many booby basic mistakes made again and again, so many great new systems that never see the light of day again, developers check those forums.

And yes, I do think they should play but only up to a point as I assume you are talking for them doing this in work time.

I think part of the problem is that you get young developers who are "risk takers" and they have all these ideas and are willing to do what it takes to get the money to see their vision realized.

They might not even have experience but they so believe they can do it. On one hand "great" but when using others' money, not so great.

But I agree, I'm astonished on how many ridiculous mistakes or bad judgement calls these developers continually make.

Scot · July 2023

Sovrath said:

Scot said:

I don't want to make out we have some sort of superior discourse here, but I think the most important thing for developers to do may be to read forums about games similar to the one they are making. We see so many booby basic mistakes made again and again, so many great new systems that never see the light of day again, developers check those forums.

And yes, I do think they should play but only up to a point as I assume you are talking for them doing this in work time.

I think part of the problem is that you get young developers who are "risk takers" and they have all these ideas and are willing to do what it takes to get the money to see their vision realized.

They might not even have experience but they so believe they can do it. On one hand "great" but when using others' money, not so great.

But I agree, I'm astonished on how many ridiculous mistakes or bad judgement calls these developers continually make.

I would have no problems with a young gun saying "we read about that but decided to do this our way". But it so often seems they have no idea, have done no investigation at all. Take Caspian's views on how a PvP regional control player base would behave, that was perhaps the most shocking naivety I have seen.

ValdemarJ · July 2023

Scot said:

Sovrath said:

Scot said:

I don't want to make out we have some sort of superior discourse here, but I think the most important thing for developers to do may be to read forums about games similar to the one they are making. We see so many booby basic mistakes made again and again, so many great new systems that never see the light of day again, developers check those forums.

And yes, I do think they should play but only up to a point as I assume you are talking for them doing this in work time.

I think part of the problem is that you get young developers who are "risk takers" and they have all these ideas and are willing to do what it takes to get the money to see their vision realized.

They might not even have experience but they so believe they can do it. On one hand "great" but when using others' money, not so great.

But I agree, I'm astonished on how many ridiculous mistakes or bad judgement calls these developers continually make.

I would have no problems with a young gun saying "we read about that but decided to do this our way". But it so often seems they have no idea, have done no investigation at all. Take Caspian's views on how a PvP regional control player base would behave, that was perhaps the most shocking naivety I have seen.

You are doing a great disservice to industry professionals by lumping Kickstarter hacks in the same pool and then drawing conclusions from that.

Scot · July 2023

ValdemarJ said:

Scot said:

Sovrath said:

Scot said:

I don't want to make out we have some sort of superior discourse here, but I think the most important thing for developers to do may be to read forums about games similar to the one they are making. We see so many booby basic mistakes made again and again, so many great new systems that never see the light of day again, developers check those forums.

And yes, I do think they should play but only up to a point as I assume you are talking for them doing this in work time.

I think part of the problem is that you get young developers who are "risk takers" and they have all these ideas and are willing to do what it takes to get the money to see their vision realized.

They might not even have experience but they so believe they can do it. On one hand "great" but when using others' money, not so great.

But I agree, I'm astonished on how many ridiculous mistakes or bad judgement calls these developers continually make.

I would have no problems with a young gun saying "we read about that but decided to do this our way". But it so often seems they have no idea, have done no investigation at all. Take Caspian's views on how a PvP regional control player base would behave, that was perhaps the most shocking naivety I have seen.

You are doing a great disservice to industry professionals by lumping Kickstarter hacks in the same pool and then drawing conclusions from that.

I thought he had worked on "numerous credited and uncredited titles in the Free Roaming Adventure and RTS genres including Dungeons & Dragon: Dragonshard, Mercenaries, and Star Wars Battlefront".

At least that's what he claims. But as a general principle, would an industry professional be more likey to play? I can't call that.

Sovrath · July 2023

ValdemarJ said:

Scot said:

Sovrath said:

Scot said:

I don't want to make out we have some sort of superior discourse here, but I think the most important thing for developers to do may be to read forums about games similar to the one they are making. We see so many booby basic mistakes made again and again, so many great new systems that never see the light of day again, developers check those forums.

And yes, I do think they should play but only up to a point as I assume you are talking for them doing this in work time.

I think part of the problem is that you get young developers who are "risk takers" and they have all these ideas and are willing to do what it takes to get the money to see their vision realized.

They might not even have experience but they so believe they can do it. On one hand "great" but when using others' money, not so great.

But I agree, I'm astonished on how many ridiculous mistakes or bad judgement calls these developers continually make.

I would have no problems with a young gun saying "we read about that but decided to do this our way". But it so often seems they have no idea, have done no investigation at all. Take Caspian's views on how a PvP regional control player base would behave, that was perhaps the most shocking naivety I have seen.

You are doing a great disservice to industry professionals by lumping Kickstarter hacks in the same pool and then drawing conclusions from that.

To be fair, I think in this instance he's just addressing "kickstarter" hacks.

So was I.

I imagine if someone is a veteran of the games industry they have learned a few things from their experience. With some outliers here and there.

Scot · July 2023

Sovrath said:

ValdemarJ said:

Scot said:

Sovrath said:

Scot said:

I don't want to make out we have some sort of superior discourse here, but I think the most important thing for developers to do may be to read forums about games similar to the one they are making. We see so many booby basic mistakes made again and again, so many great new systems that never see the light of day again, developers check those forums.

And yes, I do think they should play but only up to a point as I assume you are talking for them doing this in work time.

I think part of the problem is that you get young developers who are "risk takers" and they have all these ideas and are willing to do what it takes to get the money to see their vision realized.

They might not even have experience but they so believe they can do it. On one hand "great" but when using others' money, not so great.

But I agree, I'm astonished on how many ridiculous mistakes or bad judgement calls these developers continually make.

I would have no problems with a young gun saying "we read about that but decided to do this our way". But it so often seems they have no idea, have done no investigation at all. Take Caspian's views on how a PvP regional control player base would behave, that was perhaps the most shocking naivety I have seen.

You are doing a great disservice to industry professionals by lumping Kickstarter hacks in the same pool and then drawing conclusions from that.

To be fair, I think in this instance he's just addressing "kickstarter" hacks.

So was I.

I imagine if someone is a veteran of the games industry they have learned a few things from their experience. With some outliers here and there.

I would have thought they would have had someone who would say "hang on" even if they had not played themselves. But then we see some corkers coming out in AAA MMOs like the GW "find the quest text" and Rift's "lets leave no space for players to roleplay in, fill it to the brim!". That said in reply they might say "we knew about that and went ahead anyway."

Howdy, Stranger!

Is it important to you that Developers play their own game?

Comments

Howdy, Stranger!

Quick Links

Is it important to you that Developers play their own game?

Comments