So, for you are MMORPGS really "fun" or is it the fact many are very good at making the player believe they are achieving something?
I overthink and overanalyse everything, so "fun" is a concept I have spent a lot of time thinking of and reading up on.
I am definitely in Raph Koster's camp, with his theory that fun = learning.
I'm like that too, but not everybody is like me. Astrology describes three basic types:
1) cardinal -- the starter outer, the learner,
2) fixed -- the maker, takes the ideas of the cardinal and makes it real, and
3) mutable -- takes the results of the fixed and uses it for a purpose.
To make a simple example, the learner figures out how to build buildings. The fixed actually makes buildings, and the mutable uses those buildings for stuff, like markets, banks, etc.
People can get satisfaction and fun from all of those aspects, not just learning.
Fun nowadays is a more ephemeral thing than it used to be when I first started playing MMORPGs. There are a lot of things that take the fun out of the games we play because of the perceived need to keep doing them or feel you're losing something. Now they are designed to keep you playing but in the past I played because I wanted to be with my friends. I think it's inevitable as time passed and these game became more expensive to make and more difficult to maintain a population.
I have greatly enjoyed decorating my house in EQ2 and raiding in Everquest even at the dreadful threat of losing my corpse for good but such experiences are not so common in the games I play now mainly because I have lost the friends I once played with in Everquest. I find making new friends in the games I play now more difficult so I end up playing alone and with strangers.
I flit from game to game and they are fun for a few months then not so much. The problem is probably me.
What made Everquest work well was that your friends didnt outlevel you quickly...Now MMOs are all about hitting max level in a few days and doing it mostly solo or with strangers youll never see again.
The other side of that coin is that if you fell behind, you were never catching up. True in a lot of MMOs though, especially first gen.
"are MMORPGS really "fun" or is it the fact many are very good at making the player believe they are achieving something?'
It's an interesting question. I think it really depends on the game in question and the individual.
Personally, I'm not the kind of player who's going to play a game where I have to grind a lot before I get to the stuff I might find enjoyable. A bit of grinding is ok, but the game has to capture my imagination in some way, I have to enjoy being there, learning about the world, it's lore, learning new skills and finding out what they do. But sometimes, even if a game's world does interest me, if there's too much focus on grinding mobs for levels I'm just going to give up, because I'll start to feel like I'm wasting my time sitting at the computer.
World of Warcraft lost me in this way. My friend got me a sub to play with him, and I liked the world, I wanted to learn about the classes, the lore, I wanted to be involved in the big overarching story quests, the PvP battles between clans, I wanted to get stuck in with all that kind of stuff, and then people were saying I had to reach such and such a level first, so instead of doing the fun stuff I was just going around killing things and doing the exact same quests over and over in different areas and it was mind numbing.
I did do the grinding in Runescape back in the day because it was the first online game I ever got to play with my friends and it was just a novel experience to be able to play with and chat with friends from home. The fun part was figuring out the quests and helping each other. Would I enjoy Runescape if I started playing now as an adult? Hard to say, I lost my account to a scam because I was a gullible twelve year old kid when I played it, and I ended up being glad that it happened because it led to me finding a game that my friends and I ended up liking even more - a game called Akanbar, and the reason we liked it more was that it had a lot of features we had wished could be in Runescape in terms of solid guild structures and bases with ranks and player run cities, and it felt like so much more was possible in terms of being involved in a story since the game was text based, the people there played roles and didn't type in texting language and say lol so there was more immersion into the world, and it had great combat/PvP that was so much more fun than pointing the mouse and clicking, where level and how much you'd grinded wasn't the defining factor...
So are these games fun? It depends on the person and it depends on the game. If a world captures my imagination, keeps my attention outside of just grinding things, and if I enjoy inhabiting my character within that world, then it's fun for me. But a lot of MMOs genuinely wouldn't be fun for me too. What more can be said, like all art, games are subjective.
For me the high point of any game is trying out my overpowered store bought gear for the very first time, especially in a full loot PvP game where I can kill some new player in the starter area and dry loot him. Of course, I don't need any of the low-level stuff because I win via credit card, so I toss his garbage into a cave someplace. I hope the guy I looted is a child crying in real life somewhere.
Probably the most fun I've had is playing my Warg in LOTRO.
What made it fun was playing against people I knew who were good natured. If my pack was able to take out one of them, I'd write a poem about delicious hobbit toes, and if they blew me up they'd talk about their new Wargfoot skin rug in the hallway.
We had some people who knew the correct attitude to have when going into PvP and I learned some things from them about respecting the opposition enough to make it fun. Because of this, if one of them was getting ganged up on, often times I'd hold the pack back and allow the battle to play out - we'd murder them in the end quite often, but tried not to interrupt a good 3v3 when they'd occur.
So, for you are MMORPGS really "fun" or is it the fact many are very good at making the player believe they are achieving something?
I overthink and overanalyse everything, so "fun" is a concept I have spent a lot of time thinking of and reading up on.
I am definitely in Raph Koster's camp, with his theory that fun = learning.
So, a game starts with the core, underlying lessons it is trying to teach. Then the mechanics that teach those lessons. Then with an IP on top of it to motivate us to engage.
For me, I have fun learning the mechanics. I have fun learning the world. I have fun learning recipes and crafting. I have fun learning to play with other people. I have fun learning to lead other people.
Learning is a two stage process. First stage is the theory - like learning a new rotation, or reading a guide for a boss. Then there is application of that knowledge, which is how mastery occurs.
But once I've mastered the bits of the game that I'm interested in, the fun stops and the "work" begins.
I can still take joy in the virtual world (looking at sunsets etc). I can still take comfort in playing through familiar content. There is also still fun to be had in playing with other people, as other people provide a constant source of learning (even if all they teach u is new ways to be idiots!!!).
My issue is that modern MMORPGs tend to be quite shallow in terms of mechanics, so the learning is too quick and easy. I feel I have mastered them (mentally) within a few hours, after which it's just a case of putting in the hours to develop any required reflexes. Additionally, even when the mechanics aren't shallow, I've probably seen them before and so they don't offer much to sink my teeth into.
I like strategy and timing much better than the mechanics that you like, while I like that a little too. The problem is that usually MOBs don't change up much, so the not a lot of strategy once you know them. That's something I want to see changed.
Thew biggest thing for me is the world and the story behind what's going on. Lore and current. This is another thing where I want to see change happen over time. The world should change as far as where MOB camps are and their sizes and assets (structures, defenses, etc.). I don't want to see changes to the map very often. It doesn't make sense that new dungeons pop up and then disappear very often, as an example. However, new sections to dungeons and cave systems would be welcome, and there should be a reasoning behind it.
I guess the kind of changes I want to see would be best described as evolutions to said world and it's NPCs, MOBs, Lore, and Events.
I've mentioned "discoveries", and I'd like to have that in the world, but also in what players can do with their abilities. This should never end, but I think it's best if discoveries slow down as a player "evolves."
I also really like the idea of players building things. Not just construction, but a lot in the way of dedication to group efforts. A deep Lore, and discoveries in that past history, and then groups of players dedicating to creations like museums, libraries, and colleges, and any mix of those, is one example. Temples to deities and building that deity's place in the game might be another. And of course, player cities where those previous 2 (and anything else, thieves guild anyone?) can also be a part of.
I look at a game like New World and Im nto srue what to think.....So far, it has been too easy...I dont need to group....the pace is too quick so we arent going to talk anyway, so whats the point? Also why bother gathering and crafting when there are tons of drops and quest rewards? Maybe at end game its a necessity, but mid game there is zero reason to do crafting/gathering/grouping.,.....How are we ever going to get back to role play and grouping if the game is too easy to begin with?
I look at a game like New World and Im nto srue what to think.....So far, it has been too easy...I dont need to group....the pace is too quick so we arent going to talk anyway, so whats the point? Also why bother gathering and crafting when there are tons of drops and quest rewards? Maybe at end game its a necessity, but mid game there is zero reason to do crafting/gathering/grouping.,.....How are we ever going to get back to role play and grouping if the game is too easy to begin with?
I look at a game like New World and Im nto srue what to think.....So far, it has been too easy...I dont need to group....the pace is too quick so we arent going to talk anyway, so whats the point?
I strongly believe that teamwork and social interaction requires both time and space.
Games where you are always on the move, press buttons constantly and are generally quick paced require you to constantly focus on your character and your actions.
In these games even if you are on a team you don't have much capacity for teamwork, it doesn't allow much space to coordinate with other players or react to them, much less have down time to chill.
So, for you are MMORPGS really "fun" or is it the fact many are very good at making the player believe they are achieving something?
If I am currently playing a game I do. When I no longer find a game fun I quit playing it. For how long I leave depends on the why of it. If I'm just currently tired of it and feel I need a break it may be a short departure. If it is due a change I find displeasing it may well be forever. There are many MMORPG options available. I need not endure dissatisfaction in order to play something.
When it's 90 degrees' out and I'm feeling emo and my grass won't cut itself, I log into a violent video game and love every minute of it.
This user is a registered flex offender. Someone who is registered as being a flex offender is a person who feels the need to flex about everything they say. Always be the guy that paints the house in the dark. Lucidity can be forged with enough liquidity and pharmed for decades with enough compound interest that a reachable profit would never end.
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The other side of that coin is that if you fell behind, you were never catching up. True in a lot of MMOs though, especially first gen.
It's an interesting question. I think it really depends on the game in question and the individual.
Personally, I'm not the kind of player who's going to play a game where I have to grind a lot before I get to the stuff I might find enjoyable. A bit of grinding is ok, but the game has to capture my imagination in some way, I have to enjoy being there, learning about the world, it's lore, learning new skills and finding out what they do. But sometimes, even if a game's world does interest me, if there's too much focus on grinding mobs for levels I'm just going to give up, because I'll start to feel like I'm wasting my time sitting at the computer.
World of Warcraft lost me in this way. My friend got me a sub to play with him, and I liked the world, I wanted to learn about the classes, the lore, I wanted to be involved in the big overarching story quests, the PvP battles between clans, I wanted to get stuck in with all that kind of stuff, and then people were saying I had to reach such and such a level first, so instead of doing the fun stuff I was just going around killing things and doing the exact same quests over and over in different areas and it was mind numbing.
I did do the grinding in Runescape back in the day because it was the first online game I ever got to play with my friends and it was just a novel experience to be able to play with and chat with friends from home. The fun part was figuring out the quests and helping each other. Would I enjoy Runescape if I started playing now as an adult? Hard to say, I lost my account to a scam because I was a gullible twelve year old kid when I played it, and I ended up being glad that it happened because it led to me finding a game that my friends and I ended up liking even more - a game called Akanbar, and the reason we liked it more was that it had a lot of features we had wished could be in Runescape in terms of solid guild structures and bases with ranks and player run cities, and it felt like so much more was possible in terms of being involved in a story since the game was text based, the people there played roles and didn't type in texting language and say lol so there was more immersion into the world, and it had great combat/PvP that was so much more fun than pointing the mouse and clicking, where level and how much you'd grinded wasn't the defining factor...
So are these games fun? It depends on the person and it depends on the game. If a world captures my imagination, keeps my attention outside of just grinding things, and if I enjoy inhabiting my character within that world, then it's fun for me. But a lot of MMOs genuinely wouldn't be fun for me too. What more can be said, like all art, games are subjective.
Good times.
What made it fun was playing against people I knew who were good natured. If my pack was able to take out one of them, I'd write a poem about delicious hobbit toes, and if they blew me up they'd talk about their new Wargfoot skin rug in the hallway.
We had some people who knew the correct attitude to have when going into PvP and I learned some things from them about respecting the opposition enough to make it fun. Because of this, if one of them was getting ganged up on, often times I'd hold the pack back and allow the battle to play out - we'd murder them in the end quite often, but tried not to interrupt a good 3v3 when they'd occur.
The problem is that usually MOBs don't change up much, so the not a lot of strategy once you know them. That's something I want to see changed.
Thew biggest thing for me is the world and the story behind what's going on. Lore and current.
This is another thing where I want to see change happen over time. The world should change as far as where MOB camps are and their sizes and assets (structures, defenses, etc.).
I don't want to see changes to the map very often. It doesn't make sense that new dungeons pop up and then disappear very often, as an example. However, new sections to dungeons and cave systems would be welcome, and there should be a reasoning behind it.
I guess the kind of changes I want to see would be best described as evolutions to said world and it's NPCs, MOBs, Lore, and Events.
I've mentioned "discoveries", and I'd like to have that in the world, but also in what players can do with their abilities. This should never end, but I think it's best if discoveries slow down as a player "evolves."
I also really like the idea of players building things. Not just construction, but a lot in the way of dedication to group efforts.
A deep Lore, and discoveries in that past history, and then groups of players dedicating to creations like museums, libraries, and colleges, and any mix of those, is one example.
Temples to deities and building that deity's place in the game might be another.
And of course, player cities where those previous 2 (and anything else, thieves guild anyone?) can also be a part of.
Once upon a time....
Games where you are always on the move, press buttons constantly and are generally quick paced require you to constantly focus on your character and your actions.
In these games even if you are on a team you don't have much capacity for teamwork, it doesn't allow much space to coordinate with other players or react to them, much less have down time to chill.
If I am currently playing a game I do. When I no longer find a game fun I quit playing it. For how long I leave depends on the why of it. If I'm just currently tired of it and feel I need a break it may be a short departure. If it is due a change I find displeasing it may well be forever. There are many MMORPG options available. I need not endure dissatisfaction in order to play something.
Someone who is registered as being a flex offender is a person who feels the need to flex about everything they say.
Always be the guy that paints the house in the dark.
Lucidity can be forged with enough liquidity and pharmed for decades with enough compound interest that a reachable profit would never end.