I mean this is better than the previous art style which was instantly forgettable.
But it doesn't pop, or present anything too unique, which is a general problem for Pantheon in my opinion.
Regardless of development time (which is super long) The game is just kind of middling, stock fantasy, improved but still generic art style, gameplay from over 15 years ago. Everything you expect from a MMO and nothing else.
They really need to bring something big and unique to build up hype. Being too mid and not enough significant updates does not inspire any faith.
But...they have climbing implemented... isn't that enough?
Oh yes, and a return to more group oriented game play, even for harvesting and gathering activities like mining.
Big fun.... (Not)
This part here is what will doom the game, even if they do manage to release.
Let's be honest Pantheon was always going to be a low pop game. But low pop with strongly encouraged (read; mandatory) group play does not mix.
They will have to scramble to make changes to leveling as the population is too small to sustain the main mode of play. Then the changes will push away the players they do have, while failing to get any new players.
SWG all over again, but faster.
Genre with high upkeep cost + niche game mechanics + multiplayer centric gameplay that needs a high population = uh oh
I dont know if this is still the case. Pantheon staff said many years ago, 25-50k players is all they need to sustain the game and keep the staff working and making new content. What you call is going to "doom" the game. If what they said is true. I personally think there is way more then 50k players that have been waiting for a game like Pantheon. I know Im one for sure.
I mean this is better than the previous art style which was instantly forgettable.
But it doesn't pop, or present anything too unique, which is a general problem for Pantheon in my opinion.
Regardless of development time (which is super long) The game is just kind of middling, stock fantasy, improved but still generic art style, gameplay from over 15 years ago. Everything you expect from a MMO and nothing else.
They really need to bring something big and unique to build up hype. Being too mid and not enough significant updates does not inspire any faith.
But...they have climbing implemented... isn't that enough?
Oh yes, and a return to more group oriented game play, even for harvesting and gathering activities like mining.
Big fun.... (Not)
This part here is what will doom the game, even if they do manage to release.
Let's be honest Pantheon was always going to be a low pop game. But low pop with strongly encouraged (read; mandatory) group play does not mix.
They will have to scramble to make changes to leveling as the population is too small to sustain the main mode of play. Then the changes will push away the players they do have, while failing to get any new players.
SWG all over again, but faster.
Genre with high upkeep cost + niche game mechanics + multiplayer centric gameplay that needs a high population = uh oh
I dont know if this is still the case. Pantheon staff said many years ago, 25-50k players is all they need to sustain the game and keep the staff working and making new content. What you call is going to "doom" the game. If what they said is true. I personally think there is way more then 50k players that have been waiting for a game like Pantheon. I know Im one for sure.
I was talking more about the number of concurrent players online at any given moment.
If you need groups to do most things in the game you also need a bunch of people online and around your level.
I don't know what the critical number is but we do know that if the population is too low you will spend a lot of time spamming LFG and not much time playing.
Current online player counts are always a fraction of total players.
Some rough googling (so take the numbers with a fist full of salt), WoW has 1.2 million active players and only 200k online at the moment (according to Player Counter).
So about 16%.
So if they did have 25-50k players and we assume a similar percentage online, about 4-8k would be online at any given moment, spread across however many servers and level ranges.
Is that enough to sustain such a heavy group focus? I am not so sure.
The big catch with heavily multiplayer games is that if there aren't many people to play with there isn't much to do, and if there isn't much to do there is no reason to stay.
It is definitely something they have to think about, and find possible solutions for if the population fails to materialize. You don't want to wait till it happens then try to do something.
I mean this is better than the previous art style which was instantly forgettable.
But it doesn't pop, or present anything too unique, which is a general problem for Pantheon in my opinion.
Regardless of development time (which is super long) The game is just kind of middling, stock fantasy, improved but still generic art style, gameplay from over 15 years ago. Everything you expect from a MMO and nothing else.
They really need to bring something big and unique to build up hype. Being too mid and not enough significant updates does not inspire any faith.
But...they have climbing implemented... isn't that enough?
Oh yes, and a return to more group oriented game play, even for harvesting and gathering activities like mining.
Big fun.... (Not)
This part here is what will doom the game, even if they do manage to release.
Let's be honest Pantheon was always going to be a low pop game. But low pop with strongly encouraged (read; mandatory) group play does not mix.
They will have to scramble to make changes to leveling as the population is too small to sustain the main mode of play. Then the changes will push away the players they do have, while failing to get any new players.
SWG all over again, but faster.
Genre with high upkeep cost + niche game mechanics + multiplayer centric gameplay that needs a high population = uh oh
I dont know if this is still the case. Pantheon staff said many years ago, 25-50k players is all they need to sustain the game and keep the staff working and making new content. What you call is going to "doom" the game. If what they said is true. I personally think there is way more then 50k players that have been waiting for a game like Pantheon. I know Im one for sure.
I was talking more about the number of concurrent players online at any given moment.
If you need groups to do most things in the game you also need a bunch of people online and around your level.
I don't know what the critical number is but we do know that if the population is too low you will spend a lot of time spamming LFG and not much time playing.
Current online player counts are always a fraction of total players.
Some rough googling (so take the numbers with a fist full of salt), WoW has 1.2 million active players and only 200k online at the moment (according to Player Counter).
So about 16%.
So if they did have 25-50k players and we assume a similar percentage online, about 4-8k would be online at any given moment, spread across however many servers and level ranges.
Is that enough to sustain such a heavy group focus? I am not so sure.
The big catch with heavily multiplayer games is that if there aren't many people to play with there isn't much to do, and if there isn't much to do there is no reason to stay.
It is definitely something they have to think about, and find possible solutions for if the population fails to materialize. You don't want to wait till it happens then try to do something.
Pantheon has that problem in mind. Classes in Pantheon will not be piggin holed into just a set role. All classes can (with much work) unlock all of their skill tree's. So a healer will be able to fully spec into their other areas of skills, like Damage, Debuff, Pets etc. This is like the Rogue class, thats DPS but minors in CC. This means if you dont have an Enchanter or Bard around, a Rogue can get the job done. Healers will do this in their own way. Joining a team with a healer already means another healer can being a different depth to the team. Making them more enjoyable to play.
Also, there is 3 healers in the game, each with damage and other skill sets that make them playable in other sub rolls. Making healers fun to play as they just wont be healing. This will help the population want to play them more. Also Healers makes up about a 3rd of the class choices. Again making it more likely someone will roll one.
Pantheon has also designed the game to be an alt-ahloics dream. This will be a game, much like EQ1 and 2. People who want to play this type of game, will be making many chars. I cant count how many times in EQ1 that we would make a team without asking what char they were playing. You just wanted to team with your friends and guildies. After you got a team worked out, you would ask, who wants to be the healer tonight? Now, who wants to play CC?
MAIN POINT: Of corse there will be times you will wait for a class to log in but that has been mitigated in this game.
I mean this is better than the previous art style which was instantly forgettable.
But it doesn't pop, or present anything too unique, which is a general problem for Pantheon in my opinion.
Regardless of development time (which is super long) The game is just kind of middling, stock fantasy, improved but still generic art style, gameplay from over 15 years ago. Everything you expect from a MMO and nothing else.
They really need to bring something big and unique to build up hype. Being too mid and not enough significant updates does not inspire any faith.
But...they have climbing implemented... isn't that enough?
Oh yes, and a return to more group oriented game play, even for harvesting and gathering activities like mining.
Big fun.... (Not)
This part here is what will doom the game, even if they do manage to release.
Let's be honest Pantheon was always going to be a low pop game. But low pop with strongly encouraged (read; mandatory) group play does not mix.
They will have to scramble to make changes to leveling as the population is too small to sustain the main mode of play. Then the changes will push away the players they do have, while failing to get any new players.
SWG all over again, but faster.
Genre with high upkeep cost + niche game mechanics + multiplayer centric gameplay that needs a high population = uh oh
I dont know if this is still the case. Pantheon staff said many years ago, 25-50k players is all they need to sustain the game and keep the staff working and making new content. What you call is going to "doom" the game. If what they said is true. I personally think there is way more then 50k players that have been waiting for a game like Pantheon. I know Im one for sure.
I was talking more about the number of concurrent players online at any given moment.
If you need groups to do most things in the game you also need a bunch of people online and around your level.
I don't know what the critical number is but we do know that if the population is too low you will spend a lot of time spamming LFG and not much time playing.
Current online player counts are always a fraction of total players.
Some rough googling (so take the numbers with a fist full of salt), WoW has 1.2 million active players and only 200k online at the moment (according to Player Counter).
So about 16%.
So if they did have 25-50k players and we assume a similar percentage online, about 4-8k would be online at any given moment, spread across however many servers and level ranges.
Is that enough to sustain such a heavy group focus? I am not so sure.
The big catch with heavily multiplayer games is that if there aren't many people to play with there isn't much to do, and if there isn't much to do there is no reason to stay.
It is definitely something they have to think about, and find possible solutions for if the population fails to materialize. You don't want to wait till it happens then try to do something.
Pantheon has that problem in mind. Classes in Pantheon will not be piggin holed into just a set role. All classes can (with much work) unlock all of their skill tree's. So a healer will be able to fully spec into their other areas of skills, like Damage, Debuff, Pets etc. This is like the Rogue class, thats DPS but minors in CC. This means if you dont have an Enchanter or Bard around, a Rogue can get the job done. Healers will do this in their own way. Joining a team with a healer already means another healer can being a different depth to the team. Making them more enjoyable to play.
Also, there is 3 healers in the game, each with damage and other skill sets that make them playable in other sub rolls. Making healers fun to play as they just wont be healing. This will help the population want to play them more. Also Healers makes up about a 3rd of the class choices. Again making it more likely someone will roll one.
Pantheon has also designed the game to be an alt-ahloics dream. This will be a game, much like EQ1 and 2. People who want to play this type of game, will be making many chars. I cant count how many times in EQ1 that we would make a team without asking what char they were playing. You just wanted to team with your friends and guildies. After you got a team worked out, you would ask, who wants to be the healer tonight? Now, who wants to play CC?
MAIN POINT: Of corse there will be times you will wait for a class to log in but that has been mitigated in this game.
I would also recommend they look into,
Group finder, it doesn't have to work the same way as WoW, but an easy tool to find and advertise groups. Or even have open groups anyone can join.
Exemplar, let higher level players choose to lower their level to group with lower level players. And reward them for doing so.
Make grouping as easy and plentiful as possible. It is a lot like match making in a shooter or fighting game. Super important especially at launch.
Oh yes, and a return to more group oriented game play, even for harvesting and gathering activities like mining.
Big fun.... (Not)
Whats even worse about this group harvesting/mining mechanic the way I understand it is that they require the group to wait around for a long time guarding the miner(s) while the rest of the group get nothing.
So they are essentially turning people against harvesters.
I know if I have to wait around 10 min while a harvester does their thing, while I get nothing, I am going to kick that person from my group. I know its not their fault, but its not my fault or the other non-harvesters fault either.
So that means less people will be able to form groups. What a dumb idea.
Pantheon has that problem in mind. Classes in Pantheon will not be piggin holed into just a set role. All classes can (with much work) unlock all of their skill tree's. So a healer will be able to fully spec into their other areas of skills, like Damage, Debuff, Pets etc. This is like the Rogue class, thats DPS but minors in CC. This means if you dont have an Enchanter or Bard around, a Rogue can get the job done. Healers will do this in their own way. Joining a team with a healer already means another healer can being a different depth to the team. Making them more enjoyable to play.
Also, there is 3 healers in the game, each with damage and other skill sets that make them playable in other sub rolls. Making healers fun to play as they just wont be healing. This will help the population want to play them more. Also Healers makes up about a 3rd of the class choices. Again making it more likely someone will roll one.
Pantheon has also designed the game to be an alt-ahloics dream. This will be a game, much like EQ1 and 2. People who want to play this type of game, will be making many chars. I cant count how many times in EQ1 that we would make a team without asking what char they were playing. You just wanted to team with your friends and guildies. After you got a team worked out, you would ask, who wants to be the healer tonight? Now, who wants to play CC?
MAIN POINT: Of corse there will be times you will wait for a class to log in but that has been mitigated in this game.
So what you are saying is they are going to dumb down the game so any random group of classes/people can just kill everything. This doesnt sound like a great plan to me. How are they going to have challenging content with this concept.
I would rather them make X amount of classes CC, healer, tank, dps classes and require those classes to complete challenging content. I am not a fan of anyone can win anything gameplay.
I remember in DAOC you could have classes that were 50% one class/ 50% another class and you would need 2 of those to equal a full class. Having just half of a class would not cut it, you needed 2 (1/2) or 1 full, anything less was a massive disadvantage and very high risk.
I think this is less about 'less work' and more to do with the glut of new UE5 games coming out. They will be lost in the white noise if they keep the hodgepodge asset store look.
Oh yes, and a return to more group oriented game play, even for harvesting and gathering activities like mining.
Big fun.... (Not)
Whats even worse about this group harvesting/mining mechanic the way I understand it is that they require the group to wait around for a long time guarding the miner(s) while the rest of the group get nothing.
So they are essentially turning people against harvesters.
I know if I have to wait around 10 min while a harvester does their thing, while I get nothing, I am going to kick that person from my group. I know its not their fault, but its not my fault or the other non-harvesters fault either.
So that means less people will be able to form groups. What a dumb idea.
Well, this probably hearkens back to more old school design where players had a reputation and people knew who to group with or help or who to go for crafting.
Lineage 2 had this. You would group with a spoiler and help them level and the spoiler would use an ability on a mob before you killed it. The Spoiler would then use another skill to claim various materials. At the end of the session you either used those mats for your guild (if it was a guild group) or you would divide them up with the group.
So if a player is used to Theme park games where you run to do quests and everyone gets their reward they are not going to like a game where it's the players who make the community and you learn who is trustworthy and who is not.
Personally I prefer this. It's more interesting when you have an actual community who works together or works against various groups. In many cases players would actually help others in the world. Or hinder them.
Yup, not for everyone.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Oh yes, and a return to more group oriented game play, even for harvesting and gathering activities like mining.
Big fun.... (Not)
Whats even worse about this group harvesting/mining mechanic the way I understand it is that they require the group to wait around for a long time guarding the miner(s) while the rest of the group get nothing.
So they are essentially turning people against harvesters.
I know if I have to wait around 10 min while a harvester does their thing, while I get nothing, I am going to kick that person from my group. I know its not their fault, but its not my fault or the other non-harvesters fault either.
So that means less people will be able to form groups. What a dumb idea.
Well, this probably hearkens back to more old school design where players had a reputation and people knew who to group with or help or who to go for crafting.
Lineage 2 had this. You would group with a spoiler and help them level and the spoiler would use an ability on a mob before you killed it. The Spoiler would then use another skill to claim various materials. At the end of the session you either used those mats for your guild (if it was a guild group) or you would divide them up with the group.
So if a player is used to Theme park games where you run to do quests and everyone gets their reward they are not going to like a game where it's the players who make the community and you learn who is trustworthy and who is not.
Personally I prefer this. It's more interesting when you have an actual community who works together or works against various groups. In many cases players would actually help others in the world. Or hinder them.
Yup, not for everyone.
Highlighted above by me. My response to that is that you can't pigeonhole players like that, especially these days with gamers getting really tired of the "same old same old" of that style of gaming. There's a lot of gamers that go either way, still liking it or wanting something more. Is that a 50-50 split, or some other split? I don't know but I think it weighs more heavily in the "wanting something more" directions.
I have to ask, what is this "Spoiler" thing? That sounds very gamey to me. Yeah, something different, but not in the right direction, which would be "worldly", in my opinion.
As to the thread topic, I don't think that you can force socialization like that and make players happy. It's too confining, and the natural tendency of the human animal is to revolt against such harnessing of their activities.
HOWEVER, I suspect that people might be missing the point of what they are doing. I think these players doing the guarding will be fighting MOB that spawn as a result of the harvesting actions. In UO, they had Earth Elementals of the same color as the ore that players mined, that spawned and attacked. They were tough at the higher end of the ore color spectrum. Now make them even tougher so that the miner can't handle them on their own. This may be what they are doing.
Now, add that to lumberjacking for wood. Spawn Wood Sprites that require extra guardians to protect the lumberjack player. They could do this with everything that players harvest.
This would be a whole lot better, don't you think?
((The Themepark nature of the game is still a big concern, as players really are tired of that (I am certain). But there's not yet anything better made.))
Oh yes, and a return to more group oriented game play, even for harvesting and gathering activities like mining.
Big fun.... (Not)
Whats even worse about this group harvesting/mining mechanic the way I understand it is that they require the group to wait around for a long time guarding the miner(s) while the rest of the group get nothing.
So they are essentially turning people against harvesters.
I know if I have to wait around 10 min while a harvester does their thing, while I get nothing, I am going to kick that person from my group. I know its not their fault, but its not my fault or the other non-harvesters fault either.
So that means less people will be able to form groups. What a dumb idea.
Well, this probably hearkens back to more old school design where players had a reputation and people knew who to group with or help or who to go for crafting.
Lineage 2 had this. You would group with a spoiler and help them level and the spoiler would use an ability on a mob before you killed it. The Spoiler would then use another skill to claim various materials. At the end of the session you either used those mats for your guild (if it was a guild group) or you would divide them up with the group.
So if a player is used to Theme park games where you run to do quests and everyone gets their reward they are not going to like a game where it's the players who make the community and you learn who is trustworthy and who is not.
Personally I prefer this. It's more interesting when you have an actual community who works together or works against various groups. In many cases players would actually help others in the world. Or hinder them.
Yup, not for everyone.
Highlighted above by me. My response to that is that you can't pigeonhole players like that, especially these days with gamers getting really tired of the "same old same old" of that style of gaming. There's a lot of gamers that go either way, still liking it or wanting something more. Is that a 50-50 split, or some other split? I don't know but I think it weighs more heavily in the "wanting something more" directions.
I have to ask, what is this "Spoiler" thing? That sounds very gamey to me. Yeah, something different, but not in the right direction, which would be "worldly", in my opinion.
As to the thread topic, I don't think that you can force socialization like that and make players happy. It's too confining, and the natural tendency of the human animal is to revolt against such harnessing of their activities.
HOWEVER, I suspect that people might be missing the point of what they are doing. I think these players doing the guarding will be fighting MOB that spawn as a result of the harvesting actions. In UO, they had Earth Elementals of the same color as the ore that players mined, that spawned and attacked. They were tough at the higher end of the ore color spectrum. Now make them even tougher so that the miner can't handle them on their own. This may be what they are doing.
Now, add that to lumberjacking for wood. Spawn Wood Sprites that require extra guardians to protect the lumberjack player. They could do this with everything that players harvest.
This would be a whole lot better, don't you think?
((The Themepark nature of the game is still a big concern, as players really are tired of that (I am certain). But there's not yet anything better made.))
This is exactly what they were doing in the demo I watched.
Group went to mine, miner got started, 10 (placeholder) bears spawned, party went to attack....and miner skated away with all of ore..
Not sure it showed this feature in as positive a light as they had been hoping for.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Oh yes, and a return to more group oriented game play, even for harvesting and gathering activities like mining.
Big fun.... (Not)
Whats even worse about this group harvesting/mining mechanic the way I understand it is that they require the group to wait around for a long time guarding the miner(s) while the rest of the group get nothing.
So they are essentially turning people against harvesters.
I know if I have to wait around 10 min while a harvester does their thing, while I get nothing, I am going to kick that person from my group. I know its not their fault, but its not my fault or the other non-harvesters fault either.
So that means less people will be able to form groups. What a dumb idea.
Well, this probably hearkens back to more old school design where players had a reputation and people knew who to group with or help or who to go for crafting.
Lineage 2 had this. You would group with a spoiler and help them level and the spoiler would use an ability on a mob before you killed it. The Spoiler would then use another skill to claim various materials. At the end of the session you either used those mats for your guild (if it was a guild group) or you would divide them up with the group.
So if a player is used to Theme park games where you run to do quests and everyone gets their reward they are not going to like a game where it's the players who make the community and you learn who is trustworthy and who is not.
Personally I prefer this. It's more interesting when you have an actual community who works together or works against various groups. In many cases players would actually help others in the world. Or hinder them.
Yup, not for everyone.
Highlighted above by me. My response to that is that you can't pigeonhole players like that, especially these days with gamers getting really tired of the "same old same old" of that style of gaming. There's a lot of gamers that go either way, still liking it or wanting something more. Is that a 50-50 split, or some other split? I don't know but I think it weighs more heavily in the "wanting something more" directions.
I have to ask, what is this "Spoiler" thing? That sounds very gamey to me. Yeah, something different, but not in the right direction, which would be "worldly", in my opinion.
As to the thread topic, I don't think that you can force socialization like that and make players happy. It's too confining, and the natural tendency of the human animal is to revolt against such harnessing of their activities.
HOWEVER, I suspect that people might be missing the point of what they are doing. I think these players doing the guarding will be fighting MOB that spawn as a result of the harvesting actions. In UO, they had Earth Elementals of the same color as the ore that players mined, that spawned and attacked. They were tough at the higher end of the ore color spectrum. Now make them even tougher so that the miner can't handle them on their own. This may be what they are doing.
Now, add that to lumberjacking for wood. Spawn Wood Sprites that require extra guardians to protect the lumberjack player. They could do this with everything that players harvest.
This would be a whole lot better, don't you think?
((The Themepark nature of the game is still a big concern, as players really are tired of that (I am certain). But there's not yet anything better made.))
This is exactly what they were doing in the demo I watched.
Group went to mine, miner got started, 10 (placeholder) bears spawned, party went to attack....and miner skated away with all of ore..
Not sure it showed this feature in as positive a light as they had been hoping for.
I think this is a definite step up in socialization, but a small one. It would fit very well for guilds, as the resources could then be shared. But in a Themepark game, if the power gaps prevail as expected, they'll run into that same problem of player division. Unless, of course, they drastically curtail the old power gaps. Or, they could go with Scaling, but that's a lousy answer to the problem. Themeparks don't need huge power gaps, just the strings of quests to run.
I noticed that Raph Koster said, in his recent responses here, that "the ding" was important, leading me to think along these lines then, also. SWG was too much power gap, but I think Raph had to compromise with others in the development. I say that because of the "running up hill" incident, where Raph wanted running up hills to slow the player down, others didn't want to bother, and Raph put the question to the gamers (which won his point by a large margin).
Oh yes, and a return to more group oriented game play, even for harvesting and gathering activities like mining.
Big fun.... (Not)
Whats even worse about this group harvesting/mining mechanic the way I understand it is that they require the group to wait around for a long time guarding the miner(s) while the rest of the group get nothing.
So they are essentially turning people against harvesters.
I know if I have to wait around 10 min while a harvester does their thing, while I get nothing, I am going to kick that person from my group. I know its not their fault, but its not my fault or the other non-harvesters fault either.
So that means less people will be able to form groups. What a dumb idea.
Well, this probably hearkens back to more old school design where players had a reputation and people knew who to group with or help or who to go for crafting.
Lineage 2 had this. You would group with a spoiler and help them level and the spoiler would use an ability on a mob before you killed it. The Spoiler would then use another skill to claim various materials. At the end of the session you either used those mats for your guild (if it was a guild group) or you would divide them up with the group.
So if a player is used to Theme park games where you run to do quests and everyone gets their reward they are not going to like a game where it's the players who make the community and you learn who is trustworthy and who is not.
Personally I prefer this. It's more interesting when you have an actual community who works together or works against various groups. In many cases players would actually help others in the world. Or hinder them.
Yup, not for everyone.
Highlighted above by me. My response to that is that you can't pigeonhole players like that, especially these days with gamers getting really tired of the "same old same old" of that style of gaming. There's a lot of gamers that go either way, still liking it or wanting something more. Is that a 50-50 split, or some other split? I don't know but I think it weighs more heavily in the "wanting something more" directions.
I have to ask, what is this "Spoiler" thing? That sounds very gamey to me. Yeah, something different, but not in the right direction, which would be "worldly", in my opinion.
As to the thread topic, I don't think that you can force socialization like that and make players happy. It's too confining, and the natural tendency of the human animal is to revolt against such harnessing of their activities.
HOWEVER, I suspect that people might be missing the point of what they are doing. I think these players doing the guarding will be fighting MOB that spawn as a result of the harvesting actions. In UO, they had Earth Elementals of the same color as the ore that players mined, that spawned and attacked. They were tough at the higher end of the ore color spectrum. Now make them even tougher so that the miner can't handle them on their own. This may be what they are doing.
Now, add that to lumberjacking for wood. Spawn Wood Sprites that require extra guardians to protect the lumberjack player. They could do this with everything that players harvest.
This would be a whole lot better, don't you think?
((The Themepark nature of the game is still a big concern, as players really are tired of that (I am certain). But there's not yet anything better made.))
This is exactly what they were doing in the demo I watched.
Group went to mine, miner got started, 10 (placeholder) bears spawned, party went to attack....and miner skated away with all of ore..
Not sure it showed this feature in as positive a light as they had been hoping for.
This kind of thing would be fine if everyone in the group got a cut of the ore/gems and XP.
Group rewards for a group effort.
Otherwise, even if you are helping a guild crafter, who might eventually make gear for you with the ore, that is a multiple degrees removed from the action of defending the crafter. Split the loot and XP right when it happens and it has a more clear benefit to all involved.
Oh yes, and a return to more group oriented game play, even for harvesting and gathering activities like mining.
Big fun.... (Not)
Whats even worse about this group harvesting/mining mechanic the way I understand it is that they require the group to wait around for a long time guarding the miner(s) while the rest of the group get nothing.
So they are essentially turning people against harvesters.
I know if I have to wait around 10 min while a harvester does their thing, while I get nothing, I am going to kick that person from my group. I know its not their fault, but its not my fault or the other non-harvesters fault either.
So that means less people will be able to form groups. What a dumb idea.
Well, this probably hearkens back to more old school design where players had a reputation and people knew who to group with or help or who to go for crafting.
Lineage 2 had this. You would group with a spoiler and help them level and the spoiler would use an ability on a mob before you killed it. The Spoiler would then use another skill to claim various materials. At the end of the session you either used those mats for your guild (if it was a guild group) or you would divide them up with the group.
So if a player is used to Theme park games where you run to do quests and everyone gets their reward they are not going to like a game where it's the players who make the community and you learn who is trustworthy and who is not.
Personally I prefer this. It's more interesting when you have an actual community who works together or works against various groups. In many cases players would actually help others in the world. Or hinder them.
Yup, not for everyone.
Highlighted above by me. My response to that is that you can't pigeonhole players like that, especially these days with gamers getting really tired of the "same old same old" of that style of gaming. There's a lot of gamers that go either way, still liking it or wanting something more. Is that a 50-50 split, or some other split? I don't know but I think it weighs more heavily in the "wanting something more" directions.
I have to ask, what is this "Spoiler" thing? That sounds very gamey to me. Yeah, something different, but not in the right direction, which would be "worldly", in my opinion.
As to the thread topic, I don't think that you can force socialization like that and make players happy. It's too confining, and the natural tendency of the human animal is to revolt against such harnessing of their activities.
HOWEVER, I suspect that people might be missing the point of what they are doing. I think these players doing the guarding will be fighting MOB that spawn as a result of the harvesting actions. In UO, they had Earth Elementals of the same color as the ore that players mined, that spawned and attacked. They were tough at the higher end of the ore color spectrum. Now make them even tougher so that the miner can't handle them on their own. This may be what they are doing.
Now, add that to lumberjacking for wood. Spawn Wood Sprites that require extra guardians to protect the lumberjack player. They could do this with everything that players harvest.
This would be a whole lot better, don't you think?
((The Themepark nature of the game is still a big concern, as players really are tired of that (I am certain). But there's not yet anything better made.))
It’s not pigeon holing. If players are used to very safe and predictable gameplay they might be very surprised by game mechanics that allow other players to screw them over.
whether or not they are tired of traditional theme park game play is besides the point. They might want something different but I bet dollars to donuts they might not want it to be that different!
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Oh yes, and a return to more group oriented game play, even for harvesting and gathering activities like mining.
Big fun.... (Not)
Whats even worse about this group harvesting/mining mechanic the way I understand it is that they require the group to wait around for a long time guarding the miner(s) while the rest of the group get nothing.
So they are essentially turning people against harvesters.
I know if I have to wait around 10 min while a harvester does their thing, while I get nothing, I am going to kick that person from my group. I know its not their fault, but its not my fault or the other non-harvesters fault either.
So that means less people will be able to form groups. What a dumb idea.
Well, this probably hearkens back to more old school design where players had a reputation and people knew who to group with or help or who to go for crafting.
Lineage 2 had this. You would group with a spoiler and help them level and the spoiler would use an ability on a mob before you killed it. The Spoiler would then use another skill to claim various materials. At the end of the session you either used those mats for your guild (if it was a guild group) or you would divide them up with the group.
So if a player is used to Theme park games where you run to do quests and everyone gets their reward they are not going to like a game where it's the players who make the community and you learn who is trustworthy and who is not.
Personally I prefer this. It's more interesting when you have an actual community who works together or works against various groups. In many cases players would actually help others in the world. Or hinder them.
Yup, not for everyone.
Highlighted above by me. My response to that is that you can't pigeonhole players like that, especially these days with gamers getting really tired of the "same old same old" of that style of gaming. There's a lot of gamers that go either way, still liking it or wanting something more. Is that a 50-50 split, or some other split? I don't know but I think it weighs more heavily in the "wanting something more" directions.
I have to ask, what is this "Spoiler" thing? That sounds very gamey to me. Yeah, something different, but not in the right direction, which would be "worldly", in my opinion.
As to the thread topic, I don't think that you can force socialization like that and make players happy. It's too confining, and the natural tendency of the human animal is to revolt against such harnessing of their activities.
HOWEVER, I suspect that people might be missing the point of what they are doing. I think these players doing the guarding will be fighting MOB that spawn as a result of the harvesting actions. In UO, they had Earth Elementals of the same color as the ore that players mined, that spawned and attacked. They were tough at the higher end of the ore color spectrum. Now make them even tougher so that the miner can't handle them on their own. This may be what they are doing.
Now, add that to lumberjacking for wood. Spawn Wood Sprites that require extra guardians to protect the lumberjack player. They could do this with everything that players harvest.
This would be a whole lot better, don't you think?
((The Themepark nature of the game is still a big concern, as players really are tired of that (I am certain). But there's not yet anything better made.))
This is exactly what they were doing in the demo I watched.
Group went to mine, miner got started, 10 (placeholder) bears spawned, party went to attack....and miner skated away with all of ore..
Not sure it showed this feature in as positive a light as they had been hoping for.
This kind of thing would be fine if everyone in the group got a cut of the ore/gems and XP.
Group rewards for a group effort.
Otherwise, even if you are helping a guild crafter, who might eventually make gear for you with the ore, that is a multiple degrees removed from the action of defending the crafter. Split the loot and XP right when it happens and it has a more clear benefit to all involved.
That’s what we use to do in Lineage 2. Party over? Split the loot.
But there’s a difference between agreeing to split loot and having systems to that automatically do it.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Oh yes, and a return to more group oriented game play, even for harvesting and gathering activities like mining.
Big fun.... (Not)
Whats even worse about this group harvesting/mining mechanic the way I understand it is that they require the group to wait around for a long time guarding the miner(s) while the rest of the group get nothing.
So they are essentially turning people against harvesters.
I know if I have to wait around 10 min while a harvester does their thing, while I get nothing, I am going to kick that person from my group. I know its not their fault, but its not my fault or the other non-harvesters fault either.
So that means less people will be able to form groups. What a dumb idea.
Well, this probably hearkens back to more old school design where players had a reputation and people knew who to group with or help or who to go for crafting.
Lineage 2 had this. You would group with a spoiler and help them level and the spoiler would use an ability on a mob before you killed it. The Spoiler would then use another skill to claim various materials. At the end of the session you either used those mats for your guild (if it was a guild group) or you would divide them up with the group.
So if a player is used to Theme park games where you run to do quests and everyone gets their reward they are not going to like a game where it's the players who make the community and you learn who is trustworthy and who is not.
Personally I prefer this. It's more interesting when you have an actual community who works together or works against various groups. In many cases players would actually help others in the world. Or hinder them.
Yup, not for everyone.
Highlighted above by me. My response to that is that you can't pigeonhole players like that, especially these days with gamers getting really tired of the "same old same old" of that style of gaming. There's a lot of gamers that go either way, still liking it or wanting something more. Is that a 50-50 split, or some other split? I don't know but I think it weighs more heavily in the "wanting something more" directions.
I have to ask, what is this "Spoiler" thing? That sounds very gamey to me. Yeah, something different, but not in the right direction, which would be "worldly", in my opinion.
As to the thread topic, I don't think that you can force socialization like that and make players happy. It's too confining, and the natural tendency of the human animal is to revolt against such harnessing of their activities.
HOWEVER, I suspect that people might be missing the point of what they are doing. I think these players doing the guarding will be fighting MOB that spawn as a result of the harvesting actions. In UO, they had Earth Elementals of the same color as the ore that players mined, that spawned and attacked. They were tough at the higher end of the ore color spectrum. Now make them even tougher so that the miner can't handle them on their own. This may be what they are doing.
Now, add that to lumberjacking for wood. Spawn Wood Sprites that require extra guardians to protect the lumberjack player. They could do this with everything that players harvest.
This would be a whole lot better, don't you think?
((The Themepark nature of the game is still a big concern, as players really are tired of that (I am certain). But there's not yet anything better made.))
This is exactly what they were doing in the demo I watched.
Group went to mine, miner got started, 10 (placeholder) bears spawned, party went to attack....and miner skated away with all of ore..
Not sure it showed this feature in as positive a light as they had been hoping for.
This kind of thing would be fine if everyone in the group got a cut of the ore/gems and XP.
Group rewards for a group effort.
Otherwise, even if you are helping a guild crafter, who might eventually make gear for you with the ore, that is a multiple degrees removed from the action of defending the crafter. Split the loot and XP right when it happens and it has a more clear benefit to all involved.
That’s what we use to do in Lineage 2. Party over? Split the loot.
But there’s a difference between agreeing to split loot and having systems to that automatically do it.
I was implying a system that automatically does it. And at that rate you don't have to split loot, everyone could get their own loot table. So people are not competing for loot when they are suppose to be cooperating.
I was implying a system that automatically does it. And at that rate you don't have to split loot, everyone could get their own loot table. So people are not competing for loot when they are suppose to be cooperating.
That depends on the game. Not all games are about cooperating with everyone.
Again "In Lineage " (once ... in band camp ...) the entire game was about the players. you learned who to trust, who were the best crafters, the trustworthy crafters, which guilds/alliances were griefers and which were pretty chill. There was a real reason to join guilds. And alliances.
For my tastes it was a lot more interesting and led to a lot more interesting and meaningful encounters.
Post edited by Sovrath on
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Pantheon has that problem in mind. Classes in Pantheon will not be piggin holed into just a set role. All classes can (with much work) unlock all of their skill tree's. So a healer will be able to fully spec into their other areas of skills, like Damage, Debuff, Pets etc. This is like the Rogue class, thats DPS but minors in CC. This means if you dont have an Enchanter or Bard around, a Rogue can get the job done. Healers will do this in their own way. Joining a team with a healer already means another healer can being a different depth to the team. Making them more enjoyable to play.
Also, there is 3 healers in the game, each with damage and other skill sets that make them playable in other sub rolls. Making healers fun to play as they just wont be healing. This will help the population want to play them more. Also Healers makes up about a 3rd of the class choices. Again making it more likely someone will roll one.
Pantheon has also designed the game to be an alt-ahloics dream. This will be a game, much like EQ1 and 2. People who want to play this type of game, will be making many chars. I cant count how many times in EQ1 that we would make a team without asking what char they were playing. You just wanted to team with your friends and guildies. After you got a team worked out, you would ask, who wants to be the healer tonight? Now, who wants to play CC?
MAIN POINT: Of corse there will be times you will wait for a class to log in but that has been mitigated in this game.
So what you are saying is they are going to dumb down the game so any random group of classes/people can just kill everything. This doesnt sound like a great plan to me. How are they going to have challenging content with this concept.
I would rather them make X amount of classes CC, healer, tank, dps classes and require those classes to complete challenging content. I am not a fan of anyone can win anything gameplay.
I remember in DAOC you could have classes that were 50% one class/ 50% another class and you would need 2 of those to equal a full class. Having just half of a class would not cut it, you needed 2 (1/2) or 1 full, anything less was a massive disadvantage and very high risk.
If you call Pantheon a dumbed down game you really have not been following anything about this game.
All I have to say on this is that Art should be the last thing they work on, all the mechanics can be tested gray box, so, the fact they are getting to the final art touches, is a good sign, it means they are adding the final skin to the game.
We shall see however.
Some days Common Sense and game building don't have a damn thing in common.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
I mean this is better than the previous art style which was instantly forgettable.
But it doesn't pop, or present anything too unique, which is a general problem for Pantheon in my opinion.
Regardless of development time (which is super long) The game is just kind of middling, stock fantasy, improved but still generic art style, gameplay from over 15 years ago. Everything you expect from a MMO and nothing else.
They really need to bring something big and unique to build up hype. Being too mid and not enough significant updates does not inspire any faith.
But...they have climbing implemented... isn't that enough?
Oh yes, and a return to more group oriented game play, even for harvesting and gathering activities like mining.
Big fun.... (Not)
This part here is what will doom the game, even if they do manage to release.
Let's be honest Pantheon was always going to be a low pop game. But low pop with strongly encouraged (read; mandatory) group play does not mix.
They will have to scramble to make changes to leveling as the population is too small to sustain the main mode of play. Then the changes will push away the players they do have, while failing to get any new players.
SWG all over again, but faster.
Genre with high upkeep cost + niche game mechanics + multiplayer centric gameplay that needs a high population = uh oh
I dont know if this is still the case. Pantheon staff said many years ago, 25-50k players is all they need to sustain the game and keep the staff working and making new content. What you call is going to "doom" the game. If what they said is true. I personally think there is way more than 50k players that have been waiting for a game like Pantheon. I know Im one for sure.
I am one of those as well. But keep in mind that as time goes on, more investment is taken, and the development costs go up. That means they need ever more money (and presumably players) to reach the same level of stability they thought they would need 6 years back.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
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"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Comments
If you need groups to do most things in the game you also need a bunch of people online and around your level.
I don't know what the critical number is but we do know that if the population is too low you will spend a lot of time spamming LFG and not much time playing.
Current online player counts are always a fraction of total players.
Some rough googling (so take the numbers with a fist full of salt), WoW has 1.2 million active players and only 200k online at the moment (according to Player Counter).
So about 16%.
So if they did have 25-50k players and we assume a similar percentage online, about 4-8k would be online at any given moment, spread across however many servers and level ranges.
Is that enough to sustain such a heavy group focus?
I am not so sure.
The big catch with heavily multiplayer games is that if there aren't many people to play with there isn't much to do, and if there isn't much to do there is no reason to stay.
It is definitely something they have to think about, and find possible solutions for if the population fails to materialize.
You don't want to wait till it happens then try to do something.
Also, there is 3 healers in the game, each with damage and other skill sets that make them playable in other sub rolls. Making healers fun to play as they just wont be healing. This will help the population want to play them more. Also Healers makes up about a 3rd of the class choices. Again making it more likely someone will roll one.
Pantheon has also designed the game to be an alt-ahloics dream. This will be a game, much like EQ1 and 2. People who want to play this type of game, will be making many chars. I cant count how many times in EQ1 that we would make a team without asking what char they were playing. You just wanted to team with your friends and guildies. After you got a team worked out, you would ask, who wants to be the healer tonight? Now, who wants to play CC?
MAIN POINT: Of corse there will be times you will wait for a class to log in but that has been mitigated in this game.
Group finder, it doesn't have to work the same way as WoW, but an easy tool to find and advertise groups. Or even have open groups anyone can join.
Exemplar, let higher level players choose to lower their level to group with lower level players. And reward them for doing so.
Make grouping as easy and plentiful as possible. It is a lot like match making in a shooter or fighting game.
Super important especially at launch.
Whats even worse about this group harvesting/mining mechanic the way I understand it is that they require the group to wait around for a long time guarding the miner(s) while the rest of the group get nothing.
So they are essentially turning people against harvesters.
I know if I have to wait around 10 min while a harvester does their thing, while I get nothing, I am going to kick that person from my group. I know its not their fault, but its not my fault or the other non-harvesters fault either.
So that means less people will be able to form groups. What a dumb idea.
I would rather them make X amount of classes CC, healer, tank, dps classes and require those classes to complete challenging content. I am not a fan of anyone can win anything gameplay.
I remember in DAOC you could have classes that were 50% one class/ 50% another class and you would need 2 of those to equal a full class. Having just half of a class would not cut it, you needed 2 (1/2) or 1 full, anything less was a massive disadvantage and very high risk.
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I dont think the graphics will matter at all.
To me I think High end graphics are like advertising, it drives people to your game initially but then they leave if the gameplay sucks.
Good gameplay, will build word of mouth, it might start slow but gains momentum.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
My response to that is that you can't pigeonhole players like that, especially these days with gamers getting really tired of the "same old same old" of that style of gaming.
There's a lot of gamers that go either way, still liking it or wanting something more. Is that a 50-50 split, or some other split? I don't know but I think it weighs more heavily in the "wanting something more" directions.
I have to ask, what is this "Spoiler" thing? That sounds very gamey to me. Yeah, something different, but not in the right direction, which would be "worldly", in my opinion.
As to the thread topic, I don't think that you can force socialization like that and make players happy. It's too confining, and the natural tendency of the human animal is to revolt against such harnessing of their activities.
HOWEVER, I suspect that people might be missing the point of what they are doing.
I think these players doing the guarding will be fighting MOB that spawn as a result of the harvesting actions.
In UO, they had Earth Elementals of the same color as the ore that players mined, that spawned and attacked. They were tough at the higher end of the ore color spectrum.
Now make them even tougher so that the miner can't handle them on their own.
This may be what they are doing.
Now, add that to lumberjacking for wood. Spawn Wood Sprites that require extra guardians to protect the lumberjack player.
They could do this with everything that players harvest.
This would be a whole lot better, don't you think?
((The Themepark nature of the game is still a big concern, as players really are tired of that (I am certain). But there's not yet anything better made.))
Once upon a time....
Group went to mine, miner got started, 10 (placeholder) bears spawned, party went to attack....and miner skated away with all of ore..
Not sure it showed this feature in as positive a light as they had been hoping for.
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It would fit very well for guilds, as the resources could then be shared.
But in a Themepark game, if the power gaps prevail as expected, they'll run into that same problem of player division.
Unless, of course, they drastically curtail the old power gaps.
Or, they could go with Scaling, but that's a lousy answer to the problem.
Themeparks don't need huge power gaps, just the strings of quests to run.
I noticed that Raph Koster said, in his recent responses here, that "the ding" was important, leading me to think along these lines then, also.
SWG was too much power gap, but I think Raph had to compromise with others in the development. I say that because of the "running up hill" incident, where Raph wanted running up hills to slow the player down, others didn't want to bother, and Raph put the question to the gamers (which won his point by a large margin).
Once upon a time....
Group rewards for a group effort.
Otherwise, even if you are helping a guild crafter, who might eventually make gear for you with the ore, that is a multiple degrees removed from the action of defending the crafter.
Split the loot and XP right when it happens and it has a more clear benefit to all involved.
whether or not they are tired of traditional theme park game play is besides the point. They might want something different but I bet dollars to donuts they might not want it to be that different!
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
But there’s a difference between agreeing to split loot and having systems to that automatically do it.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
And at that rate you don't have to split loot, everyone could get their own loot table.
So people are not competing for loot when they are suppose to be cooperating.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
We shall see however.
Some days Common Sense and game building don't have a damn thing in common.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018