The Degradation of MMORPG Worlds/Leveling

nate1980 · October 2023

So, I haven't played an MMORPG in a while, outside of trying out Classic WoW Hardcore servers for a week. I've had the itch to play a MMORPG again, to complete every quest in a game. But when mentally going through all of the options, I can't think of one MMORPG that didn't make leveling faster and easier over time. Leveling is my favorite part of MMORPG's and has been ever since I began playing MMORPG's back in 2001 with DAoC, followed by SWG. All MMORPG's have become a face roll in the leveling sphere, meaning you can't die unless you just auto attacked a large enough group of enemies. It's become a speed race through the content as well, leading to out leveling content.

Am I wrong here? Is there a MMORPG with a lot of leveling content I can chew through that hasn't already been trivialized with expansion releases, number crunches, and world detuning throughout the years?

gameplayingmonkey · October 2023

Your best bet is to play a private server like EQ's P99 or turtleWoW or something. The only new(er) game I can think of that has that sort of feel for leveling is Project Gorgon.

Scot · October 2023

The direction of "ever easier" as I think of it has been going on for a couple of decades and sees no sign of pulling up. The guy above had some good ideas, look at old school MMOs (which have still been made ever easier but not as bad as modern MMOs), even better versions of old school MMOs. The only new MMO I can think of is Embers, but I would not recommend it as it needs another few years to be in a polished state.

nate1980 · October 2023

I'm finished with the first-generation MMORPG's. I've had my fill of them a long time ago. The second generation of MMORPG's, like EQ2/WoW, is probably what I'm looking at. The latest generation of MMORPG's, ones released post 2010 are, as you say, made to be easy and collection simulators.

I won't play EMU servers, because I don't trust the people running them. They're under no obligation to run them fairly or to keep the servers going for 10-20+ years, which is how long many MMORPG's have been running at this point.

Project Gorgon looks like it appeals to the original MMORPG community, which I appreciate, but it's still in Early Access.

Luiden · October 2023

EQ2 turned out to be one of the best PvE MMORPGs of all time, especially for Gen 2. You can still experience it but you to purposely not do all the stuff that makes you level really fast. Actually they may still have progression servers going on.

the state of EQ2 today is horrible though.. so play it through the first 5 to 7 expansions and then just stop because it starts to go downhill.

Cogohi · October 2023

IMO of course.

The fundamental problem with leveling in muliplayer games is that current designs segregates the population. Unless you're playing with people in a very narrow level band near yours somebody is going to get punished with reduced rewards.

I know some have tried like FF:XIV but at best you have a small range of level adjusted dailies and the occasional story mandatory group instance that can be done together.

Once a character hits certain level and gear thresholds they have access to a much larger population to play with. This is why studios focus so much on end-game.

If the leveling experience is something important to you then you're much better off playing single-player or self-hosted multiplayer RPG's.

nate1980 · October 2023

Cogohi said:

IMO of course.

The fundamental problem with leveling in muliplayer games is that current designs segregates the population. Unless you're playing with people in a very narrow level band near yours somebody is going to get punished with reduced rewards.

I know some have tried like FF:XIV but at best you have a small range of level adjusted dailies and the occasional story mandatory group instance that can be done together.

Once a character hits certain level and gear thresholds they have access to a much larger population to play with. This is why studios focus so much on end-game.

If the leveling experience is something important to you then you're much better off playing single-player or self-hosted multiplayer RPG's.

I've already been playing and continue to play through my backlog of Steam games that I accrued while solely playing MMORPG's since 2001. The great thing I loved about DAOC was that it took months, really more than a year for me, to get my first max level character. I still remember fondly the leveling process in DAoC, grouping up with other players and camping places for 8+ hours a day. I can't do that anymore, but solo questing in the MMORPG's that came after it while doing group dungeons through a dungeon finder is rather enjoyable as well. Solo questing isn't impacted by other people within your level range, unless you're talking older school MMORPG's where there were elite quests during the leveling process.

The problem I've pointed out already is that the open world content is too easy and you also out level every zone you're in due to developers speeding up the leveling process and doing level crunches.

I found FF14 to be very good in the early days/expansions, but then they nerfed their dungeons to being just speed runs. Their open world content is pretty fun, up to a point. The big "nope" in my book about FF14 is actually their job customization method, which is to say they don't have one. I'm an RPG enjoyer and have to be able to customize whatever I'm playing in order to feel connected to my character.

@Luiden I'd love to play EQ2. I've only dabble in it a few times many years ago and I don't think I made it past the teens before getting sucked into a new MMORPG. The reason why I haven't given that one another change is because I've read you out level the content, which is my gripe that led to this thread getting created. I understand MMORPG's aren't made for people like me anymore (the leveling enjoyers), but it sucks that developer's nerf their open world content to where you quickly out level and never get to experience the content it was originally designed to be experienced. I think it's a big lost opportunity to not keep at least some servers evergreen, where content stays the same where new players can hop in the game years later and experience everything the way it was once before.

I understand that progression servers exist. Unfortunately, they're targeted towards hardcore players who know the game already. There's no way a casual dad gamer will make it through all the content of the expansion before they move the server to the next expansion. I can play around 10 hours a week. The last server I looked up swapped to a new expansion every 16 weeks. That's insanely fast. I'd need at least a year per expansion I imagine.

Quizzical · October 2023

You're largely correct, but DDO and LotRO at least have adjustable difficulty. If you want the game to be hard during the leveling process, those allow you to make it so. Both allow the difficulty to scale all the way up to being nearly impossible, so it's not like how some games have a choice between too easy and way too easy.

nate1980 · October 2023

Quizzical said:

You're largely correct, but DDO and LotRO at least have adjustable difficulty. If you want the game to be hard during the leveling process, those allow you to make it so. Both allow the difficulty to scale all the way up to being nearly impossible, so it's not like how some games have a choice between too easy and way too easy.

I liked both of those games back when they first released. I've tried going back to both games but had issues with them for different reasons.

In DDO, I couldn't find groups to do many of the quests and I'm a quest completionist. Last time I played LOTRO was when they released high elves. The game ran so poorly I quit, and I always have a modern PC. I read that the game is just poorly optimized, which is a shame. I also couldn't see the font on the launcher on my TV to even log in when I tried again a few years ago. I play all games on my PC using a 60" tv now and sit on the couch. I can't do small screens and gaming chairs anymore. Everything must be large screen at 4k resolution, max graphics, while I lay reclined on my couch/recliner. Haha

Edit: I just watched a YouTube video by LazyPeon about LOTRO. I think I might give the game another shot. I can always get up next to the TV to login.

Last I played, I was a High Elf and I felt so lost after their tutorial zone. I didn't know where I was in the world in relation to the regular starting zones which flowed naturally from where you did your tutorial. Any advise?

Dammam · October 2023

I also enjoy the leveling process and have noticed how trivial leveling has become in MMOs lately. When the official classic WoW servers became available, me and the group I used to play with many years ago decided to re-sub and jump in to see how we remembered it. In the process, we also used this as an opportunity to test out retail, since most of us quit around WotLK. My take-away from that was:

Classic WoW leveling was easier for us than we remembered, in large part due to us being better than we were when we first played it

Retail leveling was far easier than classic by design

nate1980 · October 2023

Dammam said:

I also enjoy the leveling process and have noticed how trivial leveling has become in MMOs lately. When the official classic WoW servers became available, me and the group I used to play with many years ago decided to re-sub and jump in to see how we remembered it. In the process, we also used this as an opportunity to test out retail, since most of us quit around WotLK. My take-away from that was:
Classic WoW leveling was easier for us than we remembered, in large part due to us being better than we were when we first played it
Retail leveling was far easier than classic by design

Well, we're talking MMORPG's, so I define harder by the amount of mobs you can pull at once, how high above your level you can solo, and by how long it takes to kill things and to level.

I also played Classic WoW when it released. I thought it was a lot of fun. I had to think strategically before pulling, otherwise I'd pull more than my Warrior could handle solo. There were camps of mobs that were untouchable for me, since I couldn't solo the 3-5 mobs that were in those camps. Retail, by comparison, I can just run around gathering the 10-15 mobs I can string together, pop a CD or two, and mow everything down (I played Prot Pally in Retail).

I hope there's a day when someone releases an MMORPG with Souls-like action combat to make soloing mechanically challenging as well, but I doubt that'll ever happen. I don't think the general public enjoy having to learn mob behavior to win a battle. But I have single player RPG's for that itch. MMO's scratch the [level slowly over a long period of time] itch, or at least they used to.

Kyleran · October 2023

nate1980 said:

Dammam said:

I also enjoy the leveling process and have noticed how trivial leveling has become in MMOs lately. When the official classic WoW servers became available, me and the group I used to play with many years ago decided to re-sub and jump in to see how we remembered it. In the process, we also used this as an opportunity to test out retail, since most of us quit around WotLK. My take-away from that was:
Classic WoW leveling was easier for us than we remembered, in large part due to us being better than we were when we first played it
Retail leveling was far easier than classic by design

Well, we're talking MMORPG's, so I define harder by the amount of mobs you can pull at once, how high above your level you can solo, and by how long it takes to kill things and to level.

I also played Classic WoW when it released. I thought it was a lot of fun. I had to think strategically before pulling, otherwise I'd pull more than my Warrior could handle solo. There were camps of mobs that were untouchable for me, since I couldn't solo the 3-5 mobs that were in those camps. Retail, by comparison, I can just run around gathering the 10-15 mobs I can string together, pop a CD or two, and mow everything down (I played Prot Pally in Retail).

I hope there's a day when someone releases an MMORPG with Souls-like action combat to make soloing mechanically challenging as well, but I doubt that'll ever happen. I don't think the general public enjoy having to learn mob behavior to win a battle. But I have single player RPG's for that itch. MMO's scratch the [level slowly over a long period of time] itch, or at least they used to.

Everything is relative. When Vanilla WOW released its leveling was considered easy mode for casuals in n the eyes of players of 1st Gen MMORPGs, outside of the occasional camps of epic mobs or dungeons content.

nate1980 · October 2023

Kyleran said:

nate1980 said:

Dammam said:

I also enjoy the leveling process and have noticed how trivial leveling has become in MMOs lately. When the official classic WoW servers became available, me and the group I used to play with many years ago decided to re-sub and jump in to see how we remembered it. In the process, we also used this as an opportunity to test out retail, since most of us quit around WotLK. My take-away from that was:
Classic WoW leveling was easier for us than we remembered, in large part due to us being better than we were when we first played it
Retail leveling was far easier than classic by design

Well, we're talking MMORPG's, so I define harder by the amount of mobs you can pull at once, how high above your level you can solo, and by how long it takes to kill things and to level.

I also played Classic WoW when it released. I thought it was a lot of fun. I had to think strategically before pulling, otherwise I'd pull more than my Warrior could handle solo. There were camps of mobs that were untouchable for me, since I couldn't solo the 3-5 mobs that were in those camps. Retail, by comparison, I can just run around gathering the 10-15 mobs I can string together, pop a CD or two, and mow everything down (I played Prot Pally in Retail).

I hope there's a day when someone releases an MMORPG with Souls-like action combat to make soloing mechanically challenging as well, but I doubt that'll ever happen. I don't think the general public enjoy having to learn mob behavior to win a battle. But I have single player RPG's for that itch. MMO's scratch the [level slowly over a long period of time] itch, or at least they used to.

Everything is relative. When Vanilla WOW released its leveling was considered easy mode for casuals in n the eyes of players of 1st Gen MMORPGs, outside of the occasional camps of epic mobs or dungeons content.

Oh I agree. I had to fight even con to green con mobs in DAoC if I was solo, which I'd do while waiting in line for a group. Later in levels I could take on orange con mobs. I had to rest in-between fighting mobs to regain stamina and health. By comparison, Classic WoW is much more solo player friendly. I enjoy both, but liked the originals a lot more.

Quizzical · October 2023

nate1980 said:

Kyleran said:

nate1980 said:

Dammam said:

I also enjoy the leveling process and have noticed how trivial leveling has become in MMOs lately. When the official classic WoW servers became available, me and the group I used to play with many years ago decided to re-sub and jump in to see how we remembered it. In the process, we also used this as an opportunity to test out retail, since most of us quit around WotLK. My take-away from that was:
Classic WoW leveling was easier for us than we remembered, in large part due to us being better than we were when we first played it
Retail leveling was far easier than classic by design

Well, we're talking MMORPG's, so I define harder by the amount of mobs you can pull at once, how high above your level you can solo, and by how long it takes to kill things and to level.

I also played Classic WoW when it released. I thought it was a lot of fun. I had to think strategically before pulling, otherwise I'd pull more than my Warrior could handle solo. There were camps of mobs that were untouchable for me, since I couldn't solo the 3-5 mobs that were in those camps. Retail, by comparison, I can just run around gathering the 10-15 mobs I can string together, pop a CD or two, and mow everything down (I played Prot Pally in Retail).

I hope there's a day when someone releases an MMORPG with Souls-like action combat to make soloing mechanically challenging as well, but I doubt that'll ever happen. I don't think the general public enjoy having to learn mob behavior to win a battle. But I have single player RPG's for that itch. MMO's scratch the [level slowly over a long period of time] itch, or at least they used to.

Everything is relative. When Vanilla WOW released its leveling was considered easy mode for casuals in n the eyes of players of 1st Gen MMORPGs, outside of the occasional camps of epic mobs or dungeons content.

Oh I agree. I had to fight even con to green con mobs in DAoC if I was solo, which I'd do while waiting in line for a group. Later in levels I could take on orange con mobs. I had to rest in-between fighting mobs to regain stamina and health. By comparison, Classic WoW is much more solo player friendly. I enjoy both, but liked the originals a lot more.

If you max the landscape difficulty on LotRO, you'll find it challenging to beat a same-level mob one on one.

nate1980 · October 2023

Quizzical said:

nate1980 said:

Kyleran said:

nate1980 said:

Dammam said:

I also enjoy the leveling process and have noticed how trivial leveling has become in MMOs lately. When the official classic WoW servers became available, me and the group I used to play with many years ago decided to re-sub and jump in to see how we remembered it. In the process, we also used this as an opportunity to test out retail, since most of us quit around WotLK. My take-away from that was:
Classic WoW leveling was easier for us than we remembered, in large part due to us being better than we were when we first played it
Retail leveling was far easier than classic by design

Well, we're talking MMORPG's, so I define harder by the amount of mobs you can pull at once, how high above your level you can solo, and by how long it takes to kill things and to level.

I also played Classic WoW when it released. I thought it was a lot of fun. I had to think strategically before pulling, otherwise I'd pull more than my Warrior could handle solo. There were camps of mobs that were untouchable for me, since I couldn't solo the 3-5 mobs that were in those camps. Retail, by comparison, I can just run around gathering the 10-15 mobs I can string together, pop a CD or two, and mow everything down (I played Prot Pally in Retail).

I hope there's a day when someone releases an MMORPG with Souls-like action combat to make soloing mechanically challenging as well, but I doubt that'll ever happen. I don't think the general public enjoy having to learn mob behavior to win a battle. But I have single player RPG's for that itch. MMO's scratch the [level slowly over a long period of time] itch, or at least they used to.

Everything is relative. When Vanilla WOW released its leveling was considered easy mode for casuals in n the eyes of players of 1st Gen MMORPGs, outside of the occasional camps of epic mobs or dungeons content.

Oh I agree. I had to fight even con to green con mobs in DAoC if I was solo, which I'd do while waiting in line for a group. Later in levels I could take on orange con mobs. I had to rest in-between fighting mobs to regain stamina and health. By comparison, Classic WoW is much more solo player friendly. I enjoy both, but liked the originals a lot more.

If you max the landscape difficulty on LotRO, you'll find it challenging to beat a same-level mob one on one.

I find that cool. I'll give LOTRO another shot. Going to add it back to my list of games to play.

Dattelis · October 2023

So you 'completed' classic wow or am I mis-reading?

Luiden · October 2023

nate1980 said:

Oh I agree. I had to fight even con to green con mobs in DAoC if I was solo, which I'd do while waiting in line for a group. Later in levels I could take on orange con mobs. I had to rest in-between fighting mobs to regain stamina and health. By comparison, Classic WoW is much more solo player friendly. I enjoy both, but liked the originals a lot more.

Nothing beats the combat of DAOC in both RVR and PVE. At level 5 you weren't pulling multiple mobs in that game or you were getting your face smashed into the ground. That game had so much combat complexity that I can't think of a single game that even comes close to what you had to learn about your class. It's laughable to compare today's MMORPGs against DAOC and unless you played it.. people just don't get it.

It did take forever to level in that game but the journey was worth it. It had so many classes and the variety was so great that I didn't mind the slow journey. I can still remember being level 28 with a few months into the game.. got into a group with a Champion and thought.. I've never grouped with this class.. I have no idea what this is or what he does... it was kind of wild the depth that game had.

But those are found memories now, like you said I don't have the time now to commit like I did in the past but that doesn't mean I don't want to play that game. I would always be behind and I would be okay with that because the fun of doing those open dungeons at level 15 was next level. There is just so much that today's MMORPGs get wrong that players will never experience.

I don't know if gamers will ever get the chance to have that kind of experience again. Playing those MMORPGs was more than just playing a video game.. it was a life investment. I can't even contemplate investing any of my time to a modern MMORPG today because it's a poor investment, there is no return on investment here. Like you said, you login and start pulling 5 to 10 mobs at once and level to 25 in a hour or so.. all the time just running through content that somebody spent a significant time to create but no player will appreciate. It just seems silly.

Dammam · October 2023

Luiden said:

nate1980 said:

[ ... ]

[ ... ]
It did take forever to level in that game but the journey was worth it. It had so many classes and the variety was so great that I didn't mind the slow journey.
[ ... ]
I would always be behind and I would be okay with that because the fun of doing those open dungeons at level 15 was next level. There is just so much that today's MMORPGs get wrong that players will never experience.
[ ... ]

I just wanted to highlight the points that stood out for me. I also play games for the experience and not a rank on some scoreboard. That's not to say there's anything wrong with competitive games, but that's where some of this culture shift and change in how MMORPG's are designed comes from, in my opinion.

I think of RPG's as games where the fun is in the journey, the adventure and character growth. I definitely don't think of them as having a linear measure of success, such that can be defined by a score or finish time. Sure, there can be levels and skill points that mark a linear progression, but that is more about conveying character growth than a win-score. I didn't win Skyrim or WoW or Eve or whatever game the moment I maxed out a skill or talent tree. I won each time I walked away with a great experience, I wonderful story to share, and a memory that would draw me back in. Like you said, the journey is what an RPG is about.

Now, however, the focus is on getting to the end, of beating the game, collecting the best loot, and doing it as quick as anyone. It is more like a race than a journey. It misses the whole point of these games, in my opinion.

Akulas · October 2023

The best part of playing a MMORPG is the leveling. They have made leveling delibrately boring so people will say leveling is boring. You're never going to find a 2010+ game where you have to manage your resources throughout every encounters and have a chance at meaningful loot drops. DAoC is basically it. Project Gorgon looks promising and worth a look. Otherwise if anything else exists like that I'd like to know about it.

Pr0tag0ni5t · October 2023

I just jumped back into Ember's adrift. Lots of improvements since launch. They have their anniversary event going right now you can play the game for free starting Oct 13th to Nov 5th.

I bought it back when they had pre launch purchases and played through a few rounds of testing. It was a little to niche for me. But like you I was itching to play an actual MMORPG and saw this event and thought I would give it a try again with a year since launch, I have been having a great time. Small improvements have made the game much more enjoyable and the community there is great, everyone helps out. I would say it most resembles EQ if you had to compare it to any previous MMO, with its pace of leveling, grouping and bag runs

You should try it out, for that matter everyone should try it out, its free.

My in game name is Hrothgar.

Scot · October 2023

Quizzical said:

You're largely correct, but DDO and LotRO at least have adjustable difficulty. If you want the game to be hard during the leveling process, those allow you to make it so. Both allow the difficulty to scale all the way up to being nearly impossible, so it's not like how some games have a choice between too easy and way too easy.

The problem with adjustable difficulty and I am not saying its a huge problem because MMORPG's were taken over by solo players, but for those who play in a guild expecting someone to hold themselves back with a higher difficulty setting is a big ask. This is the same as expecting players not to use the best leveling options and so on, you just have to let your members go at their own pace. But this means you have fragmented what the guild wants to do which goes against what guilds were designed to do in the first place, bring players together.

cameltosis · October 2023

The degradation of the leveling process is an inevitable consequence of poor design choices.

Different classes, different player capabilities, different gear scores all make it impossible to balance solo content. Literally impossible. However, the linear nature of quest design and progression means that a lot of content is mandatory. You might be able to skip the occasional quest or dungeon here or there, but not much and not without hardship.

So, if you put a reasonable amount of challenging content into your game, using the standard themepark template, then that challenging content will prevent a certain percentage of players from progressing. Those players then quit.

Devs long ago decided that the solution was to dumb down nearly all leveling content. That way, it doesn't block progress and, in theory, players stick around longer and make it to endgame. This is the easiest solution to the problem......but it doesn't work. For every extra player who sticks around because the game is easier, you lose a player who quits because they're bored. Not to mention, those players who have now made it to endgame because the game is easy just can't cope with the big jump to difficult group content, and quit anyway.

Alternate solutions to the original problem of "roadblocks":

1) Train your players!

Most games, but especially MMORPGs, are absolutely terrible at training their players how to be good. For the most part, we get a small amount of information about the core mechanics, then we're left to figure things out by ourselves. For some of us (myself included), this is great! I love figuring things out for myself, experimenting with the mechanics and setups, theory-crafting builds etc.

For the average player, this isn't enough. If you are new to MMORPGs, you need something to explain what rotations are, what situational abilities are, what each combat role does.....and then give you quests / tasks to make sure you really do understand! The game should then give you plenty of on-ramps, slowly taking you from very easy to very difficult content.

2) Non-linear Content / Multiple Routes to Progress

A roadblock in a linear game can be fatal. A roadblock in a non-linear game just means you have to take a different route. It's not fatal!

Sadly, the RPG world has been hyper-focused on telling stories (instead of roleplaying /sigh), but storytelling requires linearity. So, designing an MMORPG to be non-linear means breaking the storytelling habit.

Multiple routes to progress might be slightly easier, though more costly. ESO is probably a good example of this. If you get stuck on a quest, you can just cancel the quest and go pretty much anywhere else in the game and start a new quest.

3) Focus on Groups

Balancing an RPG with different classes for solo content is impossible. But, balancing for groups is better. So, you could (theoretically) design your game to be group-focused. Not only does this improve balance, but newbies can be trained / carried by more experienced players.

However, a group-focused leveling experience is akin to shooting yourself in the foot......if you build the game around vertical progression. After the initial rush, finding a group becomes the roadblock and players quit anyway. So, you'd need to design around horizontal progression, something no mmorpg has yet done.

Quizzical · October 2023

Scot said:

Quizzical said:

You're largely correct, but DDO and LotRO at least have adjustable difficulty. If you want the game to be hard during the leveling process, those allow you to make it so. Both allow the difficulty to scale all the way up to being nearly impossible, so it's not like how some games have a choice between too easy and way too easy.

The problem with adjustable difficulty and I am not saying its a huge problem because MMORPG's were taken over by solo players, but for those who play in a guild expecting someone to hold themselves back with a higher difficulty setting is a big ask. This is the same as expecting players not to use the best leveling options and so on, you just have to let your members go at their own pace. But this means you have fragmented what the guild wants to do which goes against what guilds were designed to do in the first place, bring players together.

That's not a problem for solo content, which includes nearly all of the leveling content of most MMORPGs these days.

kitarad · October 2023

Josh Strife Hayes played Everquest for 100 hours. Levelling without other people is a terrible grind. Without parties Everquest levelling is a terrible chore. It's not just making levelling an experience but also one you don't end up loathing. Quite the balance.

nate1980 · October 2023

Dattelis said:

So you 'completed' classic wow or am I mis-reading?

I played my fill of it. I quit once it became apparent that the community was hellbent on ruining the experience. You know, mage boosting, mix/maxing for raids, RMT, and GDKP's. I followed it via forums over the years as TBC, and WoTLK released and found that I was right to leave. Things got worse, and Blizzard didn't help by releasing boosts and the token.

I did return for Hardcore servers, but I wasn't happy with the ruleset, since it allowed too many freedoms that would result in RMT, GDKP's, and twinking which would impact the leveling experience for players who aren't sending gold and items to their alts. So I left and finally uninstalled BNET.

Sovrath · October 2023

kitarad said:

Josh Strife Hayes played Everquest for 100 hours. Levelling without other people is a terrible grind. Without parties Everquest levelling is a terrible chore. It's not just making levelling an experience but also one you don't end up loathing. Quite the balance.

I've seen that video recently. Funny but also gives one something to think about when it comes to Everquest.

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