Epic Games wins antitrust case against Google over their Play app store

Tiller · December 2023

So Epic games sued Google for their play store and won. Is Steam next? Kinda funny when Epic was finding ways to appeal to devs for exclusive rights to games on their platform, stealing many away from Steam..*cough* Ooblets... kinda feel this is just some weird legal route of destroying competition, when they have been doing the exact same thing and it kinda seems dirty.

https://www.reuters.com/legal/google-epic-games-face-off-app-antitrust-trial-nears-end-2023-12-11/

Kazuhiro · December 2023

Is steam next? Seriously? Steam doesn't have the sole method of purchasing games on PCs. Hell it doesn't even have it on the STEAMdeck. Anyone can release and sell a game using WHATEVER method they want on PC. It's only consoles and phones that restrict that, and yes, this is a good thing that google lost. It's basically an extortion racket on phones and consoles. The companies running the racket offer absolutely nothing but take half the money, actual mafia's extort for less. Steam also takes a large chunk of the money, but at any time a developer can self publish a game outside of steam.

Vrika · December 2023

Next Google will appeal and we'll wait a couple of years for that verdict.

mekhere · December 2023

Google ’s Android app store has been protected by anticompetitive barriers. This is the norm in the new nationalized America. No one is allowed to compete anymore. Crypto millionaires made it worse.

Anyway, this lawsuit doesn't even make sense. You're paying apple to only list safe apps. You pay google to give you an audience. What am I missing?

I think epic is looking a way to make their money back from this:
The Federal Trade Commission has secured agreements requiring Epic Games, Inc., creator of the popular video game Fortnite, to pay a total of $520 million in relief over allegations the company violated the Children’s Online Privacy Protection Act (COPPA) and deployed design tricks, known as dark patterns, to dupe millions of players into making unintentional purchases.

ValdemarJ · December 2023

This isn't the same as Steam or the iOS App Store. Google made backroom deals to use their dominant position to inhibit or prevent competition in an open platform (Android).

I could maybe see Epic facing a similar scrutiny if there were determined to have a dominant market position with their game engine and then used that to tie other services and systems to it, which is a general trigger for anticompete legal issues in the US (like Sherman anti-trust, and so on). But that would require someone actually bringing a suit about it having just cause and some proof.

Brainy · December 2023

I am glad Google lost, I think apple also should have lost, but I am not a fan of Epic, because I am certain Epic would do the same thing if roles were reversed. All the exclusives Epics were doing.

Google and Apple have massive monopolies and they abuse that power. I wish it was someone other than epic winning it though.

Theocritus · December 2023

This is all about money made from in-game sales isn't it? I dont think the problem was Google/Apple getting money for listing the game to be sold, but that they also wanted as much as 30% of the in-game sales also....From what I understand, that is the heart of the matter.

ValdemarJ · December 2023

Theocritus said:

This is all about money made from in-game sales isn't it? I dont think the problem was Google/Apple getting money for listing the game to be sold, but that they also wanted as much as 30% of the in-game sales also....From what I understand, that is the heart of the matter.

No, the lawsuit really has nothing to do with the fee cut app stores take. Google was accused and found guilty of using their dominant position in Android to unfairly compete. They paid and gave kickbacks to hardware vendors and large game publishers to only use the Google Play Store on third party devices.

Epic did not request a monetary settlement. Instead they asked the court to remediate Google's practices and allow for third party app stores in the Android ecosystem.

This lawsuit very likely would have gone nowhere if Google only did this for their own branded hardware (Pixel phones) only and didn't try and manipulate the market.

BrotherMaynard · December 2023

ValdemarJ said:

Theocritus said:

This is all about money made from in-game sales isn't it? I dont think the problem was Google/Apple getting money for listing the game to be sold, but that they also wanted as much as 30% of the in-game sales also....From what I understand, that is the heart of the matter.

No, the lawsuit really has nothing to do with the fee cut app stores take. Google was accused and found guilty of using their dominant position in Android to unfairly compete. They paid and gave kickbacks to hardware vendors and large game publishers to only use the Google Play Store on third party devices.

That's not completely correct, though. It wasn't about the fee in terms of its percentage or similar complaints; but it was (among other things) about Google taking a cut out of in-app purchases. Not only did Google take a cut out of any sale of an app through the Google Play store (to which nobody was objecting), but it was also taking a cut out of transactions made within those apps, while also not allowing any competing app distribution platform on Android, which holds a dominant position in the market (to which many, including Epic, were objecting).

The jury found Google guilty of this behaviour and it's part of the ruling, including the finding that Epic was injured as a result of this behaviour (i.e. Google taking a cut out of Fortnite in-app sales).

It's pretty wild, to be honest, 5-0 victory for Epic. Google lost on every single count. I don't even remember such high-profile case with such a clear outcome:

Yes, Google has created an antitrust market;
Yes, Google willfully acquired or maintained a monopoly;
3 counts of 'Yes, Google did injure Epic as a result of its violation of antitrust law' sub-questions;
Yes, Google did unreasonably restrain trade;
Yes, Google did unlawfully tie Google Play Store with Google Play Billing;

All in all, a pretty remarkable verdict. Google will appeal, of course. The million dollar question (or perhaps the 100-billion dollar question) is how will this be remedied by the courts, especially given that this anti-competitive behaviour goes back many years during which time Google had always been in breach of the antitrust law and countless other entities doing business through Google Play have been affected.

If Google loses its appeal, I wouldn't be surprised to see a follow-up class action lawsuit against Google, grouping thousands of small developers who used in-app purchases and Google took a cut out of their revenues. It will be interesting to watch.

Kyleran · December 2023

BrotherMaynard said:

ValdemarJ said:

Theocritus said:

This is all about money made from in-game sales isn't it? I dont think the problem was Google/Apple getting money for listing the game to be sold, but that they also wanted as much as 30% of the in-game sales also....From what I understand, that is the heart of the matter.

No, the lawsuit really has nothing to do with the fee cut app stores take. Google was accused and found guilty of using their dominant position in Android to unfairly compete. They paid and gave kickbacks to hardware vendors and large game publishers to only use the Google Play Store on third party devices.

That's not completely correct, though. It wasn't about the fee in terms of its percentage or similar complaints; but it was (among other things) about Google taking a cut out of in-app purchases. Not only did Google take a cut out of any sale of an app through the Google Play store (to which nobody was objecting), but it was also taking a cut out of transactions made within those apps, while also not allowing any competing app distribution platform on Android, which holds a dominant position in the market (to which many, including Epic, were objecting).

The jury found Google guilty of this behaviour and it's part of the ruling, including the finding that Epic was injured as a result of this behaviour (i.e. Google taking a cut out of Fortnite in-app sales).

It's pretty wild, to be honest, 5-0 victory for Epic. Google lost on every single count. I don't even remember such high-profile case with such a clear outcome:

Yes, Google has created an antitrust market;
Yes, Google willfully acquired or maintained a monopoly;
3 counts of 'Yes, Google did injure Epic as a result of its violation of antitrust law' sub-questions;
Yes, Google did unreasonably restrain trade;
Yes, Google did unlawfully tie Google Play Store with Google Play Billing;

All in all, a pretty remarkable verdict. Google will appeal, of course. The million dollar question (or perhaps the 100-billion dollar question) is how will this be remedied by the courts, especially given that this anti-competitive behaviour goes back many years during which time Google had always been in breach of the antitrust law and countless other entities doing business through Google Play have been affected.

If Google loses its appeal, I wouldn't be surprised to see a follow-up class action lawsuit against Google, grouping thousands of small developers who used in-app purchases and Google took a cut out of their revenues. It will be interesting to watch.

But in the end isn't it the consumers who are "hurt" by anti competitive practices?

If so where is the documentation on how consumers were injured by Google's practices, because as one I'm not so sure I have been.

I actually don't care if Epic has been injured, that doesn't seem to have hurt me, the consumer either considering they are giving away free games left and right.

Epic however has "hurt" me in their attempts to force me to use their service by signing game developers to exclusive deals, blocking me from purchasing games on the platform of my choice.

cameltosis · December 2023

I obviously don't understand the case, or american law, well enough to understand this ruling. Seems batshit crazy to me.

By that, I have no idea how Epic won against Google, but lost against Apple, when to my eyes they were basically exactly the same case. Apple gets to keep their monopoly within their own ecosystem, but Google does not get to keep their monopoly within their own ecosystem.

Not that I really care, I dislike Google, Epic and Apple and it's extremely rare for any of them to get my money.

I also think that Google will never end up paying any fines. Intel got done by the EU for bribing manufacturers into using their chips, at the time it was the biggest EU fine ever. Clear cut evidence of bribery and antitrust stuff.......but recently Intel won their appeal and no longer have to pay anything! So, just have your lawyers tie things up for years and it'll probably go away.

I can also see that, given Apple is allowed their monopoly and Google isn't, Google will simply update their business model to regain control.

Quizzical · December 2023

I predict that the lawyers will win. Whether anyone else besides lawyers will also win is an open question.

Vrika · December 2023

cameltosis said:

I obviously don't understand the case, or american law, well enough to understand this ruling. Seems batshit crazy to me.

By that, I have no idea how Epic won against Google, but lost against Apple, when to my eyes they were basically exactly the same case. Apple gets to keep their monopoly within their own ecosystem, but Google does not get to keep their monopoly within their own ecosystem.

Google's and Apple's legal situations are different because Google can be sued for their Android license policies, whereas Apple does not give IOS licenses to other manufacturers at all.

I think it's a problem of outdated legislation being applied to something it was never designed for. This is a case where legislators should make a new law on how platforms like Android and IOS must behave, instead of courts trying to apply existing laws.

BrotherMaynard · January 23

So Apple has lost this court battle, their appeal was refused to be considered. They will charge a commission for purchases made outside their payment system, plus will make a few other changes. However, they themselves said it is questionable how successful this will be, given the huge number of small developers. They are sure to follow large developers (and Epic especially) very diligently, though.

Since this rejection of Apple's appeal means the earlier decision stands, including the verdict on several counts concerning Apple's illegal behaviour, it will be interesting to see what legal action will follow. I would bet there are already lawyers preparing campaigns to get devs to file class-action against Apple.

ValdemarJ · January 23

BrotherMaynard said:

So Apple has lost this court battle, their appeal was refused to be considered. They will charge a commission for purchases made outside their payment system, plus will make a few other changes. However, they themselves said it is questionable how successful this will be, given the huge number of small developers. They are sure to follow large developers (and Epic especially) very diligently, though.

Since this rejection of Apple's appeal means the earlier decision stands, including the verdict on several counts concerning Apple's illegal behaviour, it will be interesting to see what legal action will follow. I would bet there are already lawyers preparing campaigns to get devs to file class-action against Apple.

I don't see a class action gaining traction, but I do expect that eventually third party stores will not be paying a full revenue commission, like the 27% mentioned in the article. Maybe they will get away with charging a much lower flatrate commission, but not the same or more as they do with third party stores.

I feel like you're confusing Google's illegal behavior with the other case and decision that Apple can't bar third party app stores. Apple wasn't found guilty of antitrust behavior, like Google was. All of the verdicts in Epic vs Apple were in Apple's favor, with the exception of allowing app developers to link to other payment systems.

It looks like Apple doesn't have to include them in their app store, but can't prevent or discourage developers from linking to external systems. Apple may be able to negotiate a commission on what revenue they make from those third party stores.

Google on the other hand lost their verdicts concerning anti-trust.

I think the EU antitrust probe into Apple payment methods is going to have a lot more teeth than the US. I haven't been following it recently though, so I don't know where it's at.

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Epic Games wins antitrust case against Google over their Play app store

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Epic Games wins antitrust case against Google over their Play app store

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Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV