I still miss Wildstar. It had a nice style of humour. I just noticed the disk box for it the other day as I was looking for something else.
As you say though, the market just wasn't there for it. I felt the same way about EQ2 and as for PvP games I think the only one that ever got it right was Eve Online. Devs persist in thinking PvP will be gentlemanly and that nobody will pick on the little guy which just goes to show how stupid and anachronistic the views of devs can be. It's as if none of them has played a game that features PvP, ever!
The gaming community has changed though and the vast majority simply don't want to be social any more.
Its so funny when this becomes more and more obvious yet some people still demand the majority gets ignored because they have a hardon for socialization xd
I remember having to deal with guild recruitment when I was playing WoW, forced to deal with them cuz I wanted to have decent gear, and with guilds dying every patch or two dealing with that bs was just tiring. Then you have the degenerate metaslaves which are the vast vast vast majority in games like WoW even on a low end heroic level.
It is so much better in games like New world where I can just login, do some quests, farm some materials, craft max power gear, all at my own pace, some days I might decide to play an entire day, others just a few hours, it feels so great. I just login and do what I enjoy, i dont have to wait for the 4 other decent people to login to do content to get the rewards I want.
That is something simple the "muh socialization" types understand but despise, its the simple fact that people want to login, press a button and have fun.
No we dont want to spend time arranging groups, trying to get people to do content or discuss what type of content to do, I want to login, press a button and enjoy the gameplay NOW!
It is why automated group finders were such a huge success, which is the point of my original post, we know automated group finders where people just press a button and get into a dungeon is extremely popular. How delusional do you have to be as a dev to refuse that basic popular feature only for you to change your mind after launch and have to build it from scratch.
I would absolutely understand if they wanted to pander to the hardcore crowd as a niche game, but they dont, otherwise they wouldnt be doing an instant 180 after launch data is shown to them.
I think a large part of the issue is that devs, and maybe some gamers, equate things being tedious with being hardcore. When I hear people talk about WoW back in the early days it sounds like an awful slog, but people like to wax poetic about the good old days of it.
People have evolved past that. I'm in my 30's now, I don't have a lot of time to spend on gaming like I used to. I still enjoy challenging games but I don't like tedious games anymore, and it seems like a lot of these MMO devs like to equate tedium with hardcore gameplay. What does making a game take dozens of hours to actually get to the good part do in terms of making the game fun? Not a damn thing.
Most of us who grew up playing MMOs are old now. It's been said before but a lot of us simply do not have the time to invest in these things anymore and the younger generations of players do not usually like these games because they're slow to start. So MMO's either become more accessible to the casual audience or they stay niche, which no company that's looking to make money wants to do.
X potion works less Y Skill can only be used after more time Z mob now has more HP
Crafting item now requires ingredient A Cost of B now goes up by C gold
I mean… they don’t go and remove a directional compass but they do plenty to add time between kills or increase treadmill to get items. Or even stuff like adding currency or collectibles that take up bag space and pain… which can then be mitigated via cash shop.
This is all balancing between classes, except for the currency and collectables. "Quality of life" (ease of life) is about more teleport points, reducing pvp death penalties, making crafting easier. What you have pointed out is that where studios go against that is when it makes them money. You need to buy bigger bags from the cash shop because you have more materials now, that sort of thing.
When it comes to the debate between "casual" and "hardcore" players, the size of bags are not an issue. It is how fast is the leveling, do I need to group and how often, what are the penalties of dying, how quickly can I port round that map. That sort of thing.
Again… changing frequency of potions, or mob HP or increasing the cost of items is all designed to slow down the pace of leveling.
If it used to take 20 minutes to walk to a dungeon and 30 minutes to clear it but now I can port there but it takes 50 minutes to clear it… at the end of the day it’s 50 minutes time.
It’s just not as easy for some to see. Some folks see “Dungeon Finder and instant port there” and believe it’s a great time saver and would ignore the more subtle changes that take that time and add it right back to the treadmill. Or heaven forbid they add a dungeon or raid that requires grouping.
Dont even get me started on gear and how it’s made obsolete
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
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The gaming community has changed though and the vast majority simply don't want to be social any more. That's why many - if not most - games are catering to small servers hosted by players with a capacity of 4 to 32 slots and that's why most of them are password-protected. They are for RL family and friends and are locked to Randoms. The companies often do have official servers but these inevitably turn into havens for hackers, cheats and griefers as they have done ever since at least 2015.
I actually think this was an effect of social media, forcing its social bubbles onto gaming, and yes by and large you are right. But more social does not mean Second Life as a MMO, just like any other element from the old days I am suggesting rebalancing not going back to the ark.
Again… changing frequency of potions, or mob HP or increasing the cost of items is all designed to slow down the pace of leveling.
If it used to take 20 minutes to walk to a dungeon and 30 minutes to clear it but now I can port there but it takes 50 minutes to clear it… at the end of the day it’s 50 minutes time.
It’s just not as easy for some to see. Some folks see “Dungeon Finder and instant port there” and believe it’s a great time saver and would ignore the more subtle changes that take that time and add it right back to the treadmill. Or heaven forbid they add a dungeon or raid that requires grouping.
Dont even get me started on gear and how it’s made obsolete
Well masking grind has been here since dot, what it seems to me you are doing is pointing out some things which do make things harder like extra mob hit points and so on, I agree there. What puzzles me is are you saying that on balance these "harder life" changes are occurring more frequently than "easy life" changes? That has demonstrably not happened in any MMORPG ever. There is only one direction ever easier, which may take a step back every now and then but then it takes two steps forward. For example are saying its getting ever harder to get to top level as years go by after launch, because the reverse is clearly what happens in every MMO.
P.S A quick google, here is the first on the list noticing this back in 2013, its been going on a long time:
All MMO devs are delusional on some level post-2004. People went from planning games for a few hundred to a few thousand players to everyone planning for RuneScape playerbase. Also, I’m pretty sure nobody has ever started an mmo from the bottom of the dunning Kruger slope.
The primary thing hardcore MMO developers are delusional about is the size of the market that will actually pay to play their game. It's very easy to get fooled as well because that demographic is VERY LOUD on the forums and discord. Like a cat with its fur all poofed out they can appear much bigger than they actually are. However, when that bill comes due for your sever rental, and payroll is due for your employees they get a rude awakening when the revenue isn't there to cover costs much less make profit. Then suddenly all these new features get announced to cater to the casual player. Funny that. Capitalism works.
They find out that in the end its what sells that matters.
...What I do think is we need to rebalance the where most MMOs now stand and making them more social is key to that. That is because these should be multiplayer games, not solo games where you can't even group in raids because the solo players don't like the idea of anyone grouping ever.
The gaming community has changed though and the vast majority simply don't want to be social any more. That's why many - if not most - games are catering to small servers hosted by players with a capacity of 4 to 32 slots and that's why most of them are password-protected. They are for RL family and friends and are locked to Randoms. The companies often do have official servers but these inevitably turn into havens for hackers, cheats and griefers as they have done ever since at least 2015.
There's a reason why socialization doesn't work in MMOs. Because it's based on grouping people together who don't know each other, in mostly worlds that offer no other reason to socialize in games that actually divide the player base and cause this.
You all are aware of the many complaints about it, you know this. And yet, none of you have mentioned it.
There's a reason why socialization doesn't work in MMOs. Because it's based on grouping people together who don't know each other, in mostly worlds that offer no other reason to socialize in games that actually divide the player base and cause this.
You all are aware of the many complaints about it, you know this. And yet, none of you have mentioned it.
Color me unsurprised.
Well what happened there should not be a surprise. I have mentioned how everything became geared to the casual crowd. So do those who want a game to become ever easier want the "hassle" of interacting with people they don't know? The answer usurpingly is no they do not and indeed their social media bubble gives them the easy way to handle gaming situations like co-op where you need other players.
The question we have to ask ourselves is why do we play certain genres? Why do you play co-op and expect to play with others and play a Massively Multiplayer game and interact with no one? This is a solo game mentality being forced on a Massively Multiplayer game. Fact is, is if co-op offered AI partners for your team, how many casuals would bother even checking if their friends could play?
The preferences of those who prefer gaming to be solo and casual have distorted the gameplay of many genres, which is particularly galling for those of us who support solo play in solo games. We are happy to see both sides of the coin and support both, solo casuals only see one side and their side must claim every game out there!
What do I mean by supporting solo play in solo player games? Well there is a drive to bring all gaming online because we spend more when we are with friends, or in a guild etc. Lets keep games that don't need to be multiplayer 'offline', everything does not have to be a multiplayer live service.
Why do you play co-op and expect to play with others and play a Massively Multiplayer game and interact with no one?
Because I enjoy infinite power progression with fun gameplay that gets refreshed every season/xpac with the introduction of new systems instead of being the same boring thing forever.
And the fact that all that progress and collections exist so long servers are running.
Why do you play co-op and expect to play with others and play a Massively Multiplayer game and interact with no one?
Because I enjoy infinite power progression with fun gameplay that gets refreshed every season/xpac with the introduction of new systems instead of being the same boring thing forever.
And the fact that all that progress and collections exist so long servers are running.
Next question.
Could the same be added to single player games?
Wait, weren't those called expansion packs and DLC's?
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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Wait, weren't those called expansion packs and DLC's?
Maybe these days the DLC model works better but historically those never did very well. Most people would play through the release and put the game down. First DLC's were lucky to get 80% of the original population, 2nd would be down around 50% etc. It was usually a much better investment to develop sequels. Arguably this is what MMO expansions are.
MMO's are designed for constant engagement so there's something to do between content drops. Could SP games do the same? Perhaps but it's incredibly hard to develop solo repeatable content.
I am beginning to think that some of these companies are ok with and knowingly releasing an unfinished crap game because their only intention is making $ off the initial launch, because they know the consumers we have today will buy it. Then they just shut the game down and move on to their next moneymaker.
The question we have to ask ourselves is why do we play certain genres? Why do you play co-op and expect to play with others and play a Massively Multiplayer game and interact with no one? This is a solo game mentality being forced on a Massively Multiplayer game. Fact is, is if co-op offered AI partners for your team, how many casuals would bother even checking if their friends could play?
I don't see it as a solo mentality being forced. I see it as an over correction from the mandatory grouping designs that flounder financially. IMO the right answer is flex content that can accommodate solo and variable group sizes (within reason) without being exclusive to one or the other.
That lets me group when I can but continue to progress if I can't find anybody else or just don't want to deal with people.
I don't see it as a solo mentality being forced. I see it as an over correction from the mandatory grouping designs that flounder financially. IMO the right answer is flex content that can accommodate solo and variable group sizes (within reason) without being exclusive to one or the other.
That lets me group when I can but continue to progress if I can't find anybody else or just don't want to deal with people.
It seems the solo mentality is never forced, only "forced grouping" exists. Funny that. Solo players bang on endlessly about how they must be able to do everything solo, that's "forced soloing" right there.
There can be no flexible approach, because if you allow solo players the option to solo what do you think they are going to do? Allways solo. Well there is a sort of flexibility as I will go on to discuss.
I hope I have just established how we have forced soloing, so don't be shocked when I tell you the answer to this is some forced grouping. Now how will, that work, well lets start where is does work. Raids are still grouping in the main, and it works. "Solo only" players hate that, they want grouping erased from MMOs but there it is just going on being quintessential good MMO gameplay.
So taking that as an example here is what I would do, firstly grouping must not be left to the end, players should not solo to top level then have to jump into a raid group. They must have story points where they have to group just to get used to it. This can be grouping started by just being in a certain area, they don't have to form a group but that skill needs to be taught later along the way. There should be a hop in structure to the grouping that allows people to drop in as needed. It is grouping, but you don't have to build up a sweat to form one.
You could tackle this from other angles as well, the crafting project group and the house building group. It does not have to be about combat. In fact it would be better if players had their MMO grounding in these two types of group before combat. But even with these systems and more in place you are going to have to wait to progress sometimes, that's where the MMO has to give you something else to do while you are waiting. Fishing anyone? Ok being a bit facetious in my final sentence, but you get the idea.
Why do you play co-op and expect to play with others and play a Massively Multiplayer game and interact with no one?
Because I enjoy infinite power progression with fun gameplay that gets refreshed every season/xpac with the introduction of new systems instead of being the same boring thing forever.
And the fact that all that progress and collections exist so long servers are running.
Next question.
But then you are just getting what you get out of every solo game, your progress and collections exist until you decide to delete the game. You are not seeing past the solo to the opportunities of multiplayer. I am not saying this is an easy step, that solo first players should have the easiest time in the world going from solo to massive multiplayer because we have all been there. Nearly all of us start by playing solo games, our first massively multiplayer is a bit of a shock. But you can stay in your comfort zone or jump on the roller coaster ride that MMOs have to offer.
I realise looking back at my posts I am seeming somewhat censorious again, chiding posters which is not my intention. It is just the passion speaking, for me MMORPg's have and can be so much more.
There's a reason why socialization doesn't work in MMOs. Because it's based on grouping people together who don't know each other, in mostly worlds that offer no other reason to socialize in games that actually divide the player base and cause this.
You all are aware of the many complaints about it, you know this. And yet, none of you have mentioned it.
Color me unsurprised.
Well what happened there should not be a surprise. I have mentioned how everything became geared to the casual crowd. So do those who want a game to become ever easier want the "hassle" of interacting with people they don't know? The answer usurpingly is no they do not and indeed their social media bubble gives them the easy way to handle gaming situations like co-op where you need other players.
The question we have to ask ourselves is why do we play certain genres? Why do you play co-op and expect to play with others and play a Massively Multiplayer game and interact with no one? This is a solo game mentality being forced on a Massively Multiplayer game. Fact is, is if co-op offered AI partners for your team, how many casuals would bother even checking if their friends could play?
The preferences of those who prefer gaming to be solo and casual have distorted the gameplay of many genres, which is particularly galling for those of us who support solo play in solo games. We are happy to see both sides of the coin and support both, solo casuals only see one side and their side must claim every game out there!
What do I mean by supporting solo play in solo player games? Well there is a drive to bring all gaming online because we spend more when we are with friends, or in a guild etc. Lets keep games that don't need to be multiplayer 'offline', everything does not have to be a multiplayer live service.
Your third paragraph seems like a mistaken take on it all, by Devs as well as gamers, IMO. I don't think gamers actually want solo game play in MMORPGs. That's just a reaction to all the troubles with grouping. But grouping is only troubled because of poor massively multiplayer game design.
Playing with strangers is always a problem, always has been, always will be. The game has to have the means for players to get to know other players, some social mechanism. And note..."social" is not about grouping in "one-offs", it's about community.
The question we have to ask ourselves is why do we play certain genres? Why do you play co-op and expect to play with others and play a Massively Multiplayer game and interact with no one? This is a solo game mentality being forced on a Massively Multiplayer game. Fact is, is if co-op offered AI partners for your team, how many casuals would bother even checking if their friends could play?
I don't see it as a solo mentality being forced. I see it as an over correction from the mandatory grouping designs that flounder financially. IMO the right answer is flex content that can accommodate solo and variable group sizes (within reason) without being exclusive to one or the other.
That lets me group when I can but continue to progress if I can't find anybody else or just don't want to deal with people.
Exactly right. My above post (immediately above this one) is about handling the grouping in a successful way, and you are talking about when a player wants, or needs, to go it alone. And you have the exact right answer here.
The same applies for small groups vs. large groups.
BUT! I don't think a good game world, in an MMO or otherwise, always does that. Some content has to be more difficult than others, if you want progression to mean anything.
Edit to add, when a game becomes meaningless, it becomes boring.
Your third paragraph seems like a mistaken take on it all, by Devs as well as gamers, IMO. I don't think gamers actually want solo game play in MMORPGs. That's just a reaction to all the troubles with grouping. But grouping is only troubled because of poor massively multiplayer game design.
Playing with strangers is always a problem, always has been, always will be. The game has to have the means for players to get to know other players, some social mechanism. And note..."social" is not about grouping in "one-offs", it's about community.
Well I certainly agree with you somewhat here. It is a two way street, poor grouping experiences can lead to a "solo only" mentality. But conversely we have all had bad grouping experiences, some of us decided to push though that, others decided that characterised the entire experience for them. So I do see this as much down to playing "how I want to play" rather than just formed from bad experiences.
And the wider social context proves this is about a "solo only" mindset. For me social is not just about 'grouping one offs', but that's part of the package. One of the reasons I think this is down to "solo only" mentality is when you pull back from grouping to the wider social question in MMOs where are the "solo only" players? Well they are doing what they always do, not engaging. They won't join a guild, they won't roleplay, won't do "pastime" gameplay (hello fishing) and they tend to do little trading. Now we may have posters on here who say "I love soloing, never group" but I do fishing or whatever, by all means say so, it is heartening to hear players I think of as "just capes rushing by" getting involved somehow.
Right that's me for today, actually have a game to play.
OP's question...I would say yes many are...its soo much easier nowadays to get stuck or caught up in your own little private echo chamber where you can have only people that agree with your every thought..
Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.
OP's question...I would say yes many are...its soo much easier nowadays to get stuck or caught up in your own little private echo chamber where you can have only people that agree with your every thought..
And what about people who want to work on their own vision, their own project? Should they listen to the larger echo chamber of people who have no actual investment, no actual stake in their work other than they are supremely displeased?
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Yes the Devs are dumbasses that have been duped by the small vocal minority that claims to like that shit
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Because I enjoy infinite power progression with fun gameplay that gets refreshed every season/xpac with the introduction of new systems instead of being the same boring thing forever.
And the fact that all that progress and collections exist so long servers are running.
Next question.
But then you are just getting what you get out of every solo game
You dont, single player games:
-END, that is a major aspect, mmorpgs never end and that is the point.
-All the collections are also irrelevant because the game ends and you wont be playing it again, at least for a very long time.
-They almost never receive seasonal updates with a similar frequency or consistency nor do they make entire overhauls to combat systems like mmos do every few xpacs.
So no, single player games are nothing like mmos in this regard.
More importantly, you seem to assume that everyone must love socialization and group content, and it is just bad experiences or social anxiety stopping people from doing that again.
As I explained earlier, the reason forcing group content fails is simple, people want to have fun now, yes I enjoyed raids or m+ when I was playing WoW but I cant be bothered wasting my time with guild finding every patch or waiting for the other 4 decent people just to do the only content that gives non trash gear rewards, or even worse deal with the pugfinders where the higher io, the more hours it takes and the more metaslaves exist.
In games that treat solo players like equals, you can just login and go do stuff that reward you instantly, no wasting time waiting for other people or arguing what to do. It is why automated group finders were such a popular success.
You press a button, and you get to do content, no effort required.
Edit: Not only that, content should be easy enough that it doesnt require preparation, no I dont want to watch a 10 minute bloody guide to do content, no I just blindly que into one and will learn how it works that way
Which is what I just did in NW since they introduced auto group finder
Comments
As you say though, the market just wasn't there for it. I felt the same way about EQ2 and as for PvP games I think the only one that ever got it right was Eve Online. Devs persist in thinking PvP will be gentlemanly and that nobody will pick on the little guy which just goes to show how stupid and anachronistic the views of devs can be. It's as if none of them has played a game that features PvP, ever!
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
If it used to take 20 minutes to walk to a dungeon and 30 minutes to clear it but now I can port there but it takes 50 minutes to clear it… at the end of the day it’s 50 minutes time.
It’s just not as easy for some to see. Some folks see “Dungeon Finder and instant port there” and believe it’s a great time saver and would ignore the more subtle changes that take that time and add it right back to the treadmill. Or heaven forbid they add a dungeon or raid that requires grouping.
Dont even get me started on gear and how it’s made obsolete
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Well masking grind has been here since dot, what it seems to me you are doing is pointing out some things which do make things harder like extra mob hit points and so on, I agree there. What puzzles me is are you saying that on balance these "harder life" changes are occurring more frequently than "easy life" changes? That has demonstrably not happened in any MMORPG ever. There is only one direction ever easier, which may take a step back every now and then but then it takes two steps forward. For example are saying its getting ever harder to get to top level as years go by after launch, because the reverse is clearly what happens in every MMO.
P.S A quick google, here is the first on the list noticing this back in 2013, its been going on a long time:
Where’s the Challenge: Have MMOs Become Too Easy? – Techgage
They find out that in the end its what sells that matters.
You all are aware of the many complaints about it, you know this.
And yet, none of you have mentioned it.
Color me unsurprised.
Once upon a time....
The question we have to ask ourselves is why do we play certain genres? Why do you play co-op and expect to play with others and play a Massively Multiplayer game and interact with no one? This is a solo game mentality being forced on a Massively Multiplayer game. Fact is, is if co-op offered AI partners for your team, how many casuals would bother even checking if their friends could play?
The preferences of those who prefer gaming to be solo and casual have distorted the gameplay of many genres, which is particularly galling for those of us who support solo play in solo games. We are happy to see both sides of the coin and support both, solo casuals only see one side and their side must claim every game out there!
What do I mean by supporting solo play in solo player games? Well there is a drive to bring all gaming online because we spend more when we are with friends, or in a guild etc. Lets keep games that don't need to be multiplayer 'offline', everything does not have to be a multiplayer live service.
Wait, weren't those called expansion packs and DLC's?
Parry 2
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Maybe these days the DLC model works better but historically those never did very well. Most people would play through the release and put the game down. First DLC's were lucky to get 80% of the original population, 2nd would be down around 50% etc. It was usually a much better investment to develop sequels. Arguably this is what MMO expansions are.
MMO's are designed for constant engagement so there's something to do between content drops. Could SP games do the same? Perhaps but it's incredibly hard to develop solo repeatable content.
There can be no flexible approach, because if you allow solo players the option to solo what do you think they are going to do? Allways solo. Well there is a sort of flexibility as I will go on to discuss.
I hope I have just established how we have forced soloing, so don't be shocked when I tell you the answer to this is some forced grouping. Now how will, that work, well lets start where is does work. Raids are still grouping in the main, and it works. "Solo only" players hate that, they want grouping erased from MMOs but there it is just going on being quintessential good MMO gameplay.
So taking that as an example here is what I would do, firstly grouping must not be left to the end, players should not solo to top level then have to jump into a raid group. They must have story points where they have to group just to get used to it. This can be grouping started by just being in a certain area, they don't have to form a group but that skill needs to be taught later along the way. There should be a hop in structure to the grouping that allows people to drop in as needed. It is grouping, but you don't have to build up a sweat to form one.
You could tackle this from other angles as well, the crafting project group and the house building group. It does not have to be about combat. In fact it would be better if players had their MMO grounding in these two types of group before combat. But even with these systems and more in place you are going to have to wait to progress sometimes, that's where the MMO has to give you something else to do while you are waiting. Fishing anyone? Ok being a bit facetious in my final sentence, but you get the idea.
I realise looking back at my posts I am seeming somewhat censorious again, chiding posters which is not my intention. It is just the passion speaking, for me MMORPg's have and can be so much more.
I don't think gamers actually want solo game play in MMORPGs.
That's just a reaction to all the troubles with grouping.
But grouping is only troubled because of poor massively multiplayer game design.
Playing with strangers is always a problem, always has been, always will be.
The game has to have the means for players to get to know other players, some social mechanism.
And note..."social" is not about grouping in "one-offs", it's about community.
Once upon a time....
And you have the exact right answer here.
The same applies for small groups vs. large groups.
BUT!
I don't think a good game world, in an MMO or otherwise, always does that. Some content has to be more difficult than others, if you want progression to mean anything.
Edit to add, when a game becomes meaningless, it becomes boring.
Once upon a time....
And the wider social context proves this is about a "solo only" mindset. For me social is not just about 'grouping one offs', but that's part of the package. One of the reasons I think this is down to "solo only" mentality is when you pull back from grouping to the wider social question in MMOs where are the "solo only" players? Well they are doing what they always do, not engaging. They won't join a guild, they won't roleplay, won't do "pastime" gameplay (hello fishing) and they tend to do little trading. Now we may have posters on here who say "I love soloing, never group" but I do fishing or whatever, by all means say so, it is heartening to hear players I think of as "just capes rushing by" getting involved somehow.
Right that's me for today, actually have a game to play.
Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.
And what about people who want to work on their own vision, their own project? Should they listen to the larger echo chamber of people who have no actual investment, no actual stake in their work other than they are supremely displeased?
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo