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Musings of an MMO Vet

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  • AxehiltAxehilt Member RarePosts: 10,504
    Originally posted by Rydeson

    I know that feeling buddy..  The genre has been assimilated by the borg..  The days of adventure role playing are gone.. I grew up with paper and pencil AD&D and loved it, and for a time EQ and similar games were a good online substitute for that fun.. Then the arcade whack a mole crowd showed up..  These people didn't care about anything other then "loot" that makes them stronger and where is the next mob to kill..  Practicing your skills in forage, sense heading, safe fall, etc etc are probably considered all worthless time sinks.. I have hopes that one day we'll get a new updated gameplay version of "old school" where playing a character matters..

    "These players" care about gameplay.  Loot is a minor part of that, but every MMORPG has loot and not every MMORPG is equally successful (and the difference is mainly in the gameplay.)

    Playing your character still matters.  It's just that playing your character now involves hard/interesting decisions instead of repeatedly falling down a mountain just to train up Safe Fall.  Why would you want the game to task you with something that repetitive and dull?

    "What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver

  • Flyte27Flyte27 Member RarePosts: 4,574
    Originally posted by Axehilt
    Originally posted by Flyte27

    You are probably in the wrong genre if you are playing a game about having adventures in which all you are really doing is looking for the highest efficiency loot grind.  It's fairly obvious that I am in the wrong genre now, but that won't stop me from writing what I think is good.  I'd rather not argue about weather or not you feel x feature is in current games or x is what everyone wants.  People keep dragging me in that direction.  What I would rather talk about is what I actually wrote down a few comments ago.  It wasn't a complaint, but ideas on how to make the genre better IMO.  All you seem interested in is talking about financial stats about games or pointing out how there is a game out there for people and telling them go play it.  If there was such a game I would be playing it.  Dark Souls and Blood Borne are the closest I see and I'm playing them currently.  Divinity Original Sin is a fairly good game as well and I've been playing that.  Grand Theft Auto V is somewhat amusing even with the GPS just for the dialogue.  None of them are MMOs though.  I think if you really were interested in current MMOs you would be either playing them or talking about them instead of trying to defend them rather blindly.

    Eh, the genre is fine for players who play games for gameplay.  It's true that a lot of games are poorly designed and fail to deliver gameplay at the same quality as they ought to, but the well-designed MMORPGs are great games with meaty systems which reward a fair amount of skill mastery.

    If Bloodborne has gameplay-intensive travel which doesn't repeat itself too often, then you're right that travel definitely wouldn't be a timesink in that sort of game.  It's very different than what MMORPGs offer, and MMORPGs would have to allow fast travel (or something like it) for their travel to avoid the repetition that makes gameplay less interesting, but an MMORPG could choose to implement travel that way and it would work.  Puzzle Pirates was completely different from typical MMORPGs, but they did it perfect: gameplay just happened to be travel -- you weren't sitting there passively watching a run action, you were sailing or bilging or rigging.

    Most games do opt for fast travel systems, and a lot of them finally caught on to using Diablo's waypoints where once you've traveled there once you can teleport there (FFXIV, GW2).  So they skip the boring travel and only give you the eventful travel.  Exactly like how the Lord of the Rings story doesn't spend excessive time on Gandalf's running back and forth between places in both books -- because good entertainers know their audience's time isn't something to be wasted. 

    Personally I think you could also do it as a serious of randomly created instances which always stem off from some central location, with ramping difficulty such that surviving all the way to the end was rare (and dying reset the whole thing.) Additional cities could act as checkpoints for surviving far enough, and would start you at that level for your next series of instance runs.  Basically a very similar setup to the original Diablo (and similarly you could also do such a game with only one town.)  It wouldn't really have to be an MMO of any sort to be fun, but I suppose an MMO version of it might be something like giant GW2 zones where the world events actually end in either success or failure -- so as a giant collective of players on this large map you need to work together to beat the challenges at hand to complete the map and move on to the next one (or fail and have it reset but everyone saves their progression.)

    But yeah, there is tons of potential for travel.  The only thing that doesn't work is the empty non-gameplay that most MMORPGs use.  Any form of dense gameplay, whether it be combat or dialog or sailing or whatever, will make travel a fun experience.

    Bloodborne has some of the old school and some of the new school.

    Yes it has fast travel once you get to certain points.  It also has locked doors and other shortcuts that open from the opposite side.

    It doesn't have a GPS, quest log, or quest markers.

    If you die you have to start back at the closest fast travel point.  Mobs always respawn when you die or fast travel.

    The most you get from quests is talking to NPCs and seeing what they have to say.  They give some hints as to where to go and what to do, but nothing else to help you out.

    I wouldn't mind if there were a few more NPCs here and there, but the NPCs that are there are pretty interesting.

    There are small tutorials at the start of the game, but after that you are on your own.

    Basically it is Dark Souls as it is made by the same people, but it has more of a Castlevania theme to it.

    The game utilizes darkness and allows the player to use torches to light their way in those areas.  

    I think MMOs could learn a lot form this developer in terms of making an MMORPG harder and more interesting.  It would be nice if there was a little more dialogue at times, but other then that the concept is fairly good.  It would just need to be changed to accommodate a much larger world.

  • AxehiltAxehilt Member RarePosts: 10,504
    Originally posted by Flyte27

    Bloodborne has some of the old school and some of the new school.

    Yes it has fast travel once you get to certain points.  It also has locked doors and other shortcuts that open from the opposite side.

    It doesn't have a GPS, quest log, or quest markers.

    If you die you have to start back at the closest fast travel point.  Mobs always respawn when you die or fast travel.

    The most you get from quests is talking to NPCs and seeing what they have to say.  They give some hints as to where to go and what to do, but nothing else to help you out.

    I wouldn't mind if there were a few more NPCs here and there, but the NPCs that are there are pretty interesting.

    There are small tutorials at the start of the game, but after that you are on your own.

    Basically it is Dark Souls as it is made by the same people, but it has more of a Castlevania theme to it.

    The game utilizes darkness and allows the player to use torches to light their way in those areas.  

    I think MMOs could learn a lot form this developer in terms of making an MMORPG harder and more interesting.  It would be nice if there was a little more dialogue at times, but other then that the concept is fairly good.  It would just need to be changed to accommodate a much larger world.

    Well quest-related stuff I've always felt is meaningless because what it replaced was never a significant source of gameplay.

    The rest just sounds like gameplay-focused design, which is great.  Not an oldschool/newschool thing though, since only early MMORPGs were timesink-focused designs.  All other games (including everything that came before MMORPGs -- much more oldschool than early MMORPGs) have been gameplay-focused.

    "What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver

  • Flyte27Flyte27 Member RarePosts: 4,574
    Originally posted by Axehilt
    Originally posted by Flyte27

    Bloodborne has some of the old school and some of the new school.

    Yes it has fast travel once you get to certain points.  It also has locked doors and other shortcuts that open from the opposite side.

    It doesn't have a GPS, quest log, or quest markers.

    If you die you have to start back at the closest fast travel point.  Mobs always respawn when you die or fast travel.

    The most you get from quests is talking to NPCs and seeing what they have to say.  They give some hints as to where to go and what to do, but nothing else to help you out.

    I wouldn't mind if there were a few more NPCs here and there, but the NPCs that are there are pretty interesting.

    There are small tutorials at the start of the game, but after that you are on your own.

    Basically it is Dark Souls as it is made by the same people, but it has more of a Castlevania theme to it.

    The game utilizes darkness and allows the player to use torches to light their way in those areas.  

    I think MMOs could learn a lot form this developer in terms of making an MMORPG harder and more interesting.  It would be nice if there was a little more dialogue at times, but other then that the concept is fairly good.  It would just need to be changed to accommodate a much larger world.

    Well quest-related stuff I've always felt is meaningless because what it replaced was never a significant source of gameplay.

    The rest just sounds like gameplay-focused design, which is great.  Not an oldschool/newschool thing though, since only early MMORPGs were timesink-focused designs.  All other games (including everything that came before MMORPGs -- much more oldschool than early MMORPGs) have been gameplay-focused.

    I think it's a good basis for starting on making a game with some real meaningful choices and exploration.  It's not perfect in terms of being fun.  As I said I think it could use a few more NPCs here and there to break up the monotony that most games face at times.  To that end I think having a variety of things to do outside of combat is very important.  This means you have something you can concentrate on that is different.  It has to be done well enough that it is interesting though.  Throwing in something quirky, but fun can cheer you up and make you laugh.  Perhaps the opposite at other times.  I still think there needs to be more to a game then just combat if the game is going to be a long one.

  • QuirhidQuirhid Member UncommonPosts: 6,230
    Originally posted by Flyte27
    Originally posted by Axehilt
    Originally posted by Flyte27

    Bloodborne has some of the old school and some of the new school.

    Yes it has fast travel once you get to certain points.  It also has locked doors and other shortcuts that open from the opposite side.

    It doesn't have a GPS, quest log, or quest markers.

    If you die you have to start back at the closest fast travel point.  Mobs always respawn when you die or fast travel.

    The most you get from quests is talking to NPCs and seeing what they have to say.  They give some hints as to where to go and what to do, but nothing else to help you out.

    I wouldn't mind if there were a few more NPCs here and there, but the NPCs that are there are pretty interesting.

    There are small tutorials at the start of the game, but after that you are on your own.

    Basically it is Dark Souls as it is made by the same people, but it has more of a Castlevania theme to it.

    The game utilizes darkness and allows the player to use torches to light their way in those areas.  

    I think MMOs could learn a lot form this developer in terms of making an MMORPG harder and more interesting.  It would be nice if there was a little more dialogue at times, but other then that the concept is fairly good.  It would just need to be changed to accommodate a much larger world.

    Well quest-related stuff I've always felt is meaningless because what it replaced was never a significant source of gameplay.

    The rest just sounds like gameplay-focused design, which is great.  Not an oldschool/newschool thing though, since only early MMORPGs were timesink-focused designs.  All other games (including everything that came before MMORPGs -- much more oldschool than early MMORPGs) have been gameplay-focused.

    I think it's a good basis for starting on making a game with some real meaningful choices and exploration.  It's not perfect in terms of being fun.  As I said I think it could use a few more NPCs here and there to break up the monotony that most games face at times.  To that end I think having a variety of things to do outside of combat is very important.  This means you have something you can concentrate on that is different.  It has to be done well enough that it is interesting though.  Throwing in something quirky, but fun can cheer you up and make you laugh.  Perhaps the opposite at other times.  I still think there needs to be more to a game then just combat if the game is going to be a long one.

    Sadly, it looks as though it takes a major effort to make even a half decent combat system plus the encounters. Adding on "other stuff" and make it also interesting is a hurdle on top of another; yet combat is probably "the game maker-feature" more than any other.

    You do crafting and terraforming well, for example, but neglect combat... Your game is likely to fail or is only going to be enjoyed by a relatively small niché.

    That's just how it is. In the meantime, it is pointless to bash games and their devs which specifically go for combat as their main, and perhaps their sole, activity in their game. Combat is the meat, the rest is just garnish. Although since the combat has stayed pretty much the same for a very long time, "the meat" is getting quite stale. You can do tank 'n' spank combat in only so many games before it gets old.

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • Flyte27Flyte27 Member RarePosts: 4,574
    Originally posted by Quirhid
    Originally posted by Flyte27
    Originally posted by Axehilt
    Originally posted by Flyte27

    Bloodborne has some of the old school and some of the new school.

    Yes it has fast travel once you get to certain points.  It also has locked doors and other shortcuts that open from the opposite side.

    It doesn't have a GPS, quest log, or quest markers.

    If you die you have to start back at the closest fast travel point.  Mobs always respawn when you die or fast travel.

    The most you get from quests is talking to NPCs and seeing what they have to say.  They give some hints as to where to go and what to do, but nothing else to help you out.

    I wouldn't mind if there were a few more NPCs here and there, but the NPCs that are there are pretty interesting.

    There are small tutorials at the start of the game, but after that you are on your own.

    Basically it is Dark Souls as it is made by the same people, but it has more of a Castlevania theme to it.

    The game utilizes darkness and allows the player to use torches to light their way in those areas.  

    I think MMOs could learn a lot form this developer in terms of making an MMORPG harder and more interesting.  It would be nice if there was a little more dialogue at times, but other then that the concept is fairly good.  It would just need to be changed to accommodate a much larger world.

    Well quest-related stuff I've always felt is meaningless because what it replaced was never a significant source of gameplay.

    The rest just sounds like gameplay-focused design, which is great.  Not an oldschool/newschool thing though, since only early MMORPGs were timesink-focused designs.  All other games (including everything that came before MMORPGs -- much more oldschool than early MMORPGs) have been gameplay-focused.

    I think it's a good basis for starting on making a game with some real meaningful choices and exploration.  It's not perfect in terms of being fun.  As I said I think it could use a few more NPCs here and there to break up the monotony that most games face at times.  To that end I think having a variety of things to do outside of combat is very important.  This means you have something you can concentrate on that is different.  It has to be done well enough that it is interesting though.  Throwing in something quirky, but fun can cheer you up and make you laugh.  Perhaps the opposite at other times.  I still think there needs to be more to a game then just combat if the game is going to be a long one.

    Sadly, it looks as though it takes a major effort to make even a half decent combat system plus the encounters. Adding on "other stuff" and make it also interesting is a hurdle on top of another; yet combat is probably "the game maker-feature" more than any other.

    You do crafting and terraforming well, for example, but neglect combat... Your game is likely to fail or is only going to be enjoyed by a relatively small niché.

    That's just how it is. In the meantime, it is pointless to bash games and their devs which specifically go for combat as their main, and perhaps their sole, activity in their game. Combat is the meat, the rest is just garnish. Although since the combat has stayed pretty much the same for a very long time, "the meat" is getting quite stale. You can do tank 'n' spank combat in only so many games before it gets old.

    Perhaps they could make a 2D game then?  Some of the early MMOs were able to pull off having various different things to do in game besides combat.  Some people would spend all day mining in Ultima Online.  I see some 2D indie games that seem to be very popular on Steam and on PSN.  I haven't tried them yet myself.

    The combat doesn't have to be the meat.  It is just one aspect of the game that many have chose to focus on.  Many people seem to relate to combat.  Some can't seem to grasp anything but combat. 

  • QuirhidQuirhid Member UncommonPosts: 6,230
    Originally posted by Flyte27
    Originally posted by Quirhid
    Originally posted by Flyte27
     

    Sadly, it looks as though it takes a major effort to make even a half decent combat system plus the encounters. Adding on "other stuff" and make it also interesting is a hurdle on top of another; yet combat is probably "the game maker-feature" more than any other.

    You do crafting and terraforming well, for example, but neglect combat... Your game is likely to fail or is only going to be enjoyed by a relatively small niché.

    That's just how it is. In the meantime, it is pointless to bash games and their devs which specifically go for combat as their main, and perhaps their sole, activity in their game. Combat is the meat, the rest is just garnish. Although since the combat has stayed pretty much the same for a very long time, "the meat" is getting quite stale. You can do tank 'n' spank combat in only so many games before it gets old.

    Perhaps they could make a 2D game then?  Some of the early MMOs were able to pull off having various different things to do in game besides combat.  Some people would spend all day mining in Ultima Online.  I see some 2D indie games that seem to be very popular on Steam and on PSN.  I haven't tried them yet myself.

    The combat doesn't have to be the meat.  It is just one aspect of the game that many have chose to focus on.  Many people seem to relate to combat.  Some can't seem to grasp anything but combat. 

    People grasp things other than combat just fine. Its just that things other than combat are often so dull in MMORPGs. Very few are willing to clicking on a resource node repeatedly for crafting materials for example. And before you say its not always like that, even in games like Eve Online it is not far from it.

    I've proposed a couple of times that especially crafting and resource gathering should be done by NPC's which the player manages rather than doing the monotonous labor himself/herself. Running a transport company is more fun that driving a truck from A to B. Managing a city is far more fun than constructing buildings block by block.

    Games like Transport Tycoon, Sim City and Skylines have the right level of gameplay related to non-combat activities. Why not take a page from their book? Why not make non-combat activities with fun gameplay for a change?

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member EpicPosts: 5,851
    Originally posted by Quirhid
    Originally posted by Flyte27
    Originally posted by Quirhid
    Originally posted by Flyte27
     

    Sadly, it looks as though it takes a major effort to make even a half decent combat system plus the encounters. Adding on "other stuff" and make it also interesting is a hurdle on top of another; yet combat is probably "the game maker-feature" more than any other.

    You do crafting and terraforming well, for example, but neglect combat... Your game is likely to fail or is only going to be enjoyed by a relatively small niché.

    That's just how it is. In the meantime, it is pointless to bash games and their devs which specifically go for combat as their main, and perhaps their sole, activity in their game. Combat is the meat, the rest is just garnish. Although since the combat has stayed pretty much the same for a very long time, "the meat" is getting quite stale. You can do tank 'n' spank combat in only so many games before it gets old.

    Perhaps they could make a 2D game then?  Some of the early MMOs were able to pull off having various different things to do in game besides combat.  Some people would spend all day mining in Ultima Online.  I see some 2D indie games that seem to be very popular on Steam and on PSN.  I haven't tried them yet myself.

    The combat doesn't have to be the meat.  It is just one aspect of the game that many have chose to focus on.  Many people seem to relate to combat.  Some can't seem to grasp anything but combat. 

    People grasp things other than combat just fine. Its just that things other than combat are often so dull in MMORPGs. Very few are willing to clicking on a resource node repeatedly for crafting materials for example. And before you say its not always like that, even in games like Eve Online it is not far from it.

    I've proposed a couple of times that especially crafting and resource gathering should be done by NPC's which the player manages rather than doing the monotonous labor himself/herself. Running a transport company is more fun that driving a truck from A to B. Managing a city is far more fun than constructing buildings block by block.

    Games like Transport Tycoon, Sim City and Skylines have the right level of gameplay related to non-combat activities. Why not take a page from their book? Why not make non-combat activities with fun gameplay for a change?

    Hands on management? I've always thought that NPCs as general laborers without any real skill, and being directed by the player as well as having the player perform the skilled parts while managing labor vs. costs has some real potential.

    Once upon a time....

  • RydesonRydeson Member UncommonPosts: 3,852

         I wanted to pipe in on that little topic of crafting / resource gathering..  Yes, there needs to be more options for the player.. I would like to see a hybrid system that encompasses all of it..   I want the option to gather the materials myself, however, I want the option to send a "squire or henchman" to do it for me.. Plus I also want the option to buy the mats off a NPC as well..  What makes the difference on what one chooses can be "how much $$" and how fast to get it..  Here is a off the hip example:

    1. NPC:  Lumberjack NPC sells Oak for 50 copper each..  Maple for 1 silver each..  Pine for 30 copper each..   NPC has an unlimited supply of various wood for the region.. (NOTE = for the region).. This mean that if that zone only has Maple and Oak trees, do not expect to find Pine on his list..
    2. Player:  Player can harvest any material in the game.  It doesn't matter if it's wood, ore, leather, etc etc.. However, how much he can harvest and how fast depends on the skill level he chooses.. What I recommend is a skill tree that effects their ability to harvest..  Spend 2 skill points to increase "rate" of harvest.. or spend 2 skill points on "amount" that is harvested..  There is a maximum number of skills points a character can employ..  No one can be a master lumberjack and miner at the same time..   Average player might be able to harvest 10 units of Oak per attempt (cooldown required). As he skills up he will be able to get 12, or 15 unites per attempt, or reduce his cooldown too.. 
    3. Henchman:  This is your NPC controlled "go for" person.. You control him much like your helpers in SWTOR.. You assign him a task, and he'll go out and perform that task with variable results..  Those results will ALWAYS be less then if you did it yourself..  and yes, Henchmen can be leveled up too.. 
         So for those people that only want to hack and slash their way through the game and care nothing about trade skills and the economy of the game.. They can and regardless of player economy  there will always be NPC vendors to buy your mats from..  YES, the NPC vendor will most likely be your "ceiling" price on mats.. Why would anyone buy something off a player, when you can get it from the NPC cheaper.. That is the game's control on inflation over time, so that newbies don't end up paying GOLD prices for copper materials.. LOL 
         Also, I would love to see destructible gear..  I would like to see a repeat economy where players have to buy new weapons, and armor or whatever.. Things shouldn't last forever.. As for magic items?  hmm tricky area.. I think today's games hand out too many "magic" items..  The use of "EPIC" gear is as common as fast food burgers.. One on every street corner.. LOL
  • Flyte27Flyte27 Member RarePosts: 4,574
    Originally posted by Rydeson

         I wanted to pipe in on that little topic of crafting / resource gathering..  Yes, there needs to be more options for the player.. I would like to see a hybrid system that encompasses all of it..   I want the option to gather the materials myself, however, I want the option to send a "squire or henchman" to do it for me.. Plus I also want the option to buy the mats off a NPC as well..  What makes the difference on what one chooses can be "how much $$" and how fast to get it..  Here is a off the hip example:

    1. NPC:  Lumberjack NPC sells Oak for 50 copper each..  Maple for 1 silver each..  Pine for 30 copper each..   NPC has an unlimited supply of various wood for the region.. (NOTE = for the region).. This mean that if that zone only has Maple and Oak trees, do not expect to find Pine on his list..
    2. Player:  Player can harvest any material in the game.  It doesn't matter if it's wood, ore, leather, etc etc.. However, how much he can harvest and how fast depends on the skill level he chooses.. What I recommend is a skill tree that effects their ability to harvest..  Spend 2 skill points to increase "rate" of harvest.. or spend 2 skill points on "amount" that is harvested..  There is a maximum number of skills points a character can employ..  No one can be a master lumberjack and miner at the same time..   Average player might be able to harvest 10 units of Oak per attempt (cooldown required). As he skills up he will be able to get 12, or 15 unites per attempt, or reduce his cooldown too.. 
    3. Henchman:  This is your NPC controlled "go for" person.. You control him much like your helpers in SWTOR.. You assign him a task, and he'll go out and perform that task with variable results..  Those results will ALWAYS be less then if you did it yourself..  and yes, Henchmen can be leveled up too.. 
         So for those people that only want to hack and slash their way through the game and care nothing about trade skills and the economy of the game.. They can and regardless of player economy  there will always be NPC vendors to buy your mats from..  YES, the NPC vendor will most likely be your "ceiling" price on mats.. Why would anyone buy something off a player, when you can get it from the NPC cheaper.. That is the game's control on inflation over time, so that newbies don't end up paying GOLD prices for copper materials.. LOL 
         Also, I would love to see destructible gear..  I would like to see a repeat economy where players have to buy new weapons, and armor or whatever.. Things shouldn't last forever.. As for magic items?  hmm tricky area.. I think today's games hand out too many "magic" items..  The use of "EPIC" gear is as common as fast food burgers.. One on every street corner.. LOL

    I like the idea of having crafting options for people who like to do that.  I'm not sure hiring henchmen to do that would be good for the game though.  That would be like current EQ where you can hire henchmen and other things they added that remove incentives for interacting with others in the game.  If you had henchmen people who liked to gather wouldn't have much purpose.

  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member EpicPosts: 5,851
    Originally posted by Rydeson

         I wanted to pipe in on that little topic of crafting / resource gathering..  Yes, there needs to be more options for the player.. I would like to see a hybrid system that encompasses all of it..   I want the option to gather the materials myself, however, I want the option to send a "squire or henchman" to do it for me.. Plus I also want the option to buy the mats off a NPC as well..  What makes the difference on what one chooses can be "how much $$" and how fast to get it..  Here is a off the hip example:

    1. NPC:  Lumberjack NPC sells Oak for 50 copper each..  Maple for 1 silver each..  Pine for 30 copper each..   NPC has an unlimited supply of various wood for the region.. (NOTE = for the region).. This mean that if that zone only has Maple and Oak trees, do not expect to find Pine on his list..
    2. Player:  Player can harvest any material in the game.  It doesn't matter if it's wood, ore, leather, etc etc.. However, how much he can harvest and how fast depends on the skill level he chooses.. What I recommend is a skill tree that effects their ability to harvest..  Spend 2 skill points to increase "rate" of harvest.. or spend 2 skill points on "amount" that is harvested..  There is a maximum number of skills points a character can employ..  No one can be a master lumberjack and miner at the same time..   Average player might be able to harvest 10 units of Oak per attempt (cooldown required). As he skills up he will be able to get 12, or 15 unites per attempt, or reduce his cooldown too.. 
    3. Henchman:  This is your NPC controlled "go for" person.. You control him much like your helpers in SWTOR.. You assign him a task, and he'll go out and perform that task with variable results..  Those results will ALWAYS be less then if you did it yourself..  and yes, Henchmen can be leveled up too.. 
         So for those people that only want to hack and slash their way through the game and care nothing about trade skills and the economy of the game.. They can and regardless of player economy  there will always be NPC vendors to buy your mats from..  YES, the NPC vendor will most likely be your "ceiling" price on mats.. Why would anyone buy something off a player, when you can get it from the NPC cheaper.. That is the game's control on inflation over time, so that newbies don't end up paying GOLD prices for copper materials.. LOL 
         Also, I would love to see destructible gear..  I would like to see a repeat economy where players have to buy new weapons, and armor or whatever.. Things shouldn't last forever.. As for magic items?  hmm tricky area.. I think today's games hand out too many "magic" items..  The use of "EPIC" gear is as common as fast food burgers.. One on every street corner.. LOL

    I like your idea. I'd like it to be refined, I think, since this needs to be thought through. But I think that's the sort of thing that true MMORPGs need to go to.

    I prefer skills gaining on use, not spending points.

    I think the player should "train" his NPCs, and that would limit them to a skill ability below the players. Which would give the player who practices his skill by using it a leg up on the economic competition scale.

    I really like the idea of resources in areas/zones. As in your example of maple and oak but not pine trees in an area. Same can go for minerals, crops, etc. However, there might be a smallish amount of most resources in a particular area that's dominated by a few resources. So instead of NO PINE trees, you might have A FEW.

    You can add in rarer resources, so in that area you've mentioned as an example, there might be the rarer Walnut, Cherry, or Hickory trees (which could be rare in any zone, this making them a rarer resource overall).

    Zoned resources give the option of having caravan trade. Players can run these too in a similar manner?

     

    Once upon a time....

  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member EpicPosts: 5,851
    Originally posted by Flyte27
    Originally posted by Rydeson

         I wanted to pipe in on that little topic of crafting / resource gathering..  Yes, there needs to be more options for the player.. I would like to see a hybrid system that encompasses all of it..   I want the option to gather the materials myself, however, I want the option to send a "squire or henchman" to do it for me.. Plus I also want the option to buy the mats off a NPC as well..  What makes the difference on what one chooses can be "how much $$" and how fast to get it..  Here is a off the hip example:

    1. NPC:  Lumberjack NPC sells Oak for 50 copper each..  Maple for 1 silver each..  Pine for 30 copper each..   NPC has an unlimited supply of various wood for the region.. (NOTE = for the region).. This mean that if that zone only has Maple and Oak trees, do not expect to find Pine on his list..
    2. Player:  Player can harvest any material in the game.  It doesn't matter if it's wood, ore, leather, etc etc.. However, how much he can harvest and how fast depends on the skill level he chooses.. What I recommend is a skill tree that effects their ability to harvest..  Spend 2 skill points to increase "rate" of harvest.. or spend 2 skill points on "amount" that is harvested..  There is a maximum number of skills points a character can employ..  No one can be a master lumberjack and miner at the same time..   Average player might be able to harvest 10 units of Oak per attempt (cooldown required). As he skills up he will be able to get 12, or 15 unites per attempt, or reduce his cooldown too.. 
    3. Henchman:  This is your NPC controlled "go for" person.. You control him much like your helpers in SWTOR.. You assign him a task, and he'll go out and perform that task with variable results..  Those results will ALWAYS be less then if you did it yourself..  and yes, Henchmen can be leveled up too.. 
         So for those people that only want to hack and slash their way through the game and care nothing about trade skills and the economy of the game.. They can and regardless of player economy  there will always be NPC vendors to buy your mats from..  YES, the NPC vendor will most likely be your "ceiling" price on mats.. Why would anyone buy something off a player, when you can get it from the NPC cheaper.. That is the game's control on inflation over time, so that newbies don't end up paying GOLD prices for copper materials.. LOL 
         Also, I would love to see destructible gear..  I would like to see a repeat economy where players have to buy new weapons, and armor or whatever.. Things shouldn't last forever.. As for magic items?  hmm tricky area.. I think today's games hand out too many "magic" items..  The use of "EPIC" gear is as common as fast food burgers.. One on every street corner.. LOL

    I like the idea of having crafting options for people who like to do that.  I'm not sure hiring henchmen to do that would be good for the game though.  That would be like current EQ where you can hire henchmen and other things they added that remove incentives for interacting with others in the game.  If you had henchmen people who liked to gather wouldn't have much purpose.

    In my mind, henchmen NPCs do 2 more things besides free up player time for adventure.

    1. They equalize players to script using gold sellers to some extent and allow other game design to do more in this regard. Because they give scripts directly to all players. (This will probably kill this thread in this community, eh?)
    2. They allow the game design to get away from fantasy massive production where a single player churns out 100 swords in a few minutes. This can lead to a much more viable economy.

    Once upon a time....

  • HothloveHothlove Member UncommonPosts: 126

    My first MMO ever was everquest so I can make a comment here like many.

     

    What has changed is MMO's are more easy to play now alone and grouping is still an options. In everquest back then (SOL expac) people would run to me and ask if I would go hunts some bee's or orc's at orc hill. We would venture into crushbone and zone many times back and forth (3-5minutes zoning with 512mb ram pc 2700). I couldn't do or din't know how to kill anything on my own(wizard). Now those days are gonne where you sometimes had to wait for an hour in queue to a camped spot to join a group, that might split up to quick.

     

    I then played Daoc and it's still one of those games where you do best to team in RvR, now that it has a groupfinder it's more enjoyable.

    When WoW came it put everything upside down. Now you didn't have to group at all to level and there was meaningfull quest that gave rewards all the time and good exp.

    I have played most MMO's worth playing and my favourite memories goes to EQ, WoW and Daoc. A modern MMO MUST have PvP! I dread games that are only about PVE that's is why I got bored of EQ. 

    But why does so many games not have any decent PVP? I'm not talking about balance but I only think DAOC does it right, heck even EQ PVP server could be fun. WOW's PVP is ok but really not that great. WOW is a very gear dependent game and some get high arena rating other dont. When playing WOW before getting the best PVP gear you have to suck it up, and when you get all the gear there is nothing more to achieve but atleast you can go back to the PVE, where in DAOC the PVE wasn't nothing to write home about.

    There are not many games that is 100% perfect. LOTRO was fun since I liked the books but only once and endgame was thin and PVMP bad.

    EQ2 could be a great game but the leveling is a hassle, the quests are annoying and though the pvp (bg's) is alright.

    The old games tend to be great pre 2010, while the new like gw2 and eso are just are bore since gw2 only has 10 skills and eso is dreary questing, like we already did a ton of times before. Even SWTOR is boring since the dialogs are dry and the leveling takes too long.

    Many of those asian MMO's are very grindy and I just don't dig it, even EQ is extremely grindy starting at level 70+, I can't stomach a game that takes too much grind if there are no options for PVP in between.

    A MMO should be challenging but not annoying. If it's too easy to pve it's not cool since everyone can do it. If you have to look up things all the time on the web it's bad aswell.

    My 3 loved mmo's daoc, wow and eq have become boring. THe games has probably gotten alot better with age but I'm bored with the games because I've played em too much.

    I like many others haven't found a MMO yet that held my interest for more than a week. Lately I've been playing Farcry 4 and it was a fresh breeze in a world with 10000 MMO's. Maybe I or you just need to play something else for a year.

  • RydesonRydeson Member UncommonPosts: 3,852

    Originally posted by Flyte27

    Originally posted by Rydeson

         I wanted to pipe in on that little topic of crafting / resource gathering..  Yes, there needs to be more options for the player.. I would like to see a hybrid system that encompasses all of it..   I want the option to gather the materials myself, however, I want the option to send a "squire or henchman" to do it for me.. Plus I also want the option to buy the mats off a NPC as well..  What makes the difference on what one chooses can be "how much $$" and how fast to get it..  Here is a off the hip example:

    1. NPC:  Lumberjack NPC sells Oak for 50 copper each..  Maple for 1 silver each..  Pine for 30 copper each..   NPC has an unlimited supply of various wood for the region.. (NOTE = for the region).. This mean that if that zone only has Maple and Oak trees, do not expect to find Pine on his list..
    2. Player:  Player can harvest any material in the game.  It doesn't matter if it's wood, ore, leather, etc etc.. However, how much he can harvest and how fast depends on the skill level he chooses.. What I recommend is a skill tree that effects their ability to harvest..  Spend 2 skill points to increase "rate" of harvest.. or spend 2 skill points on "amount" that is harvested..  There is a maximum number of skills points a character can employ..  No one can be a master lumberjack and miner at the same time..   Average player might be able to harvest 10 units of Oak per attempt (cooldown required). As he skills up he will be able to get 12, or 15 unites per attempt, or reduce his cooldown too.. 
    3. Henchman:  This is your NPC controlled "go for" person.. You control him much like your helpers in SWTOR.. You assign him a task, and he'll go out and perform that task with variable results..  Those results will ALWAYS be less then if you did it yourself..  and yes, Henchmen can be leveled up too.. 
         So for those people that only want to hack and slash their way through the game and care nothing about trade skills and the economy of the game.. They can and regardless of player economy  there will always be NPC vendors to buy your mats from..  YES, the NPC vendor will most likely be your "ceiling" price on mats.. Why would anyone buy something off a player, when you can get it from the NPC cheaper.. That is the game's control on inflation over time, so that newbies don't end up paying GOLD prices for copper materials.. LOL 
         Also, I would love to see destructible gear..  I would like to see a repeat economy where players have to buy new weapons, and armor or whatever.. Things shouldn't last forever.. As for magic items?  hmm tricky area.. I think today's games hand out too many "magic" items..  The use of "EPIC" gear is as common as fast food burgers.. One on every street corner.. LOL

    I like the idea of having crafting options for people who like to do that.  I'm not sure hiring henchmen to do that would be good for the game though.  That would be like current EQ where you can hire henchmen and other things they added that remove incentives for interacting with others in the game.  If you had henchmen people who liked to gather wouldn't have much purpose.

         Henchman would be a small side thing used in crafting..  I definitely don't want henchmen being used as a replacement to social group interaction.. I would consider them more like "offline" help.. One thing, I hate the idea that a tailor can sit down with 400 units of wool and make 40 robes in 5 minutes.. As much as I want product coming OUT of the game, I want to be realistic about product going into the game as well..   So this means making production time for both character and henchmen slower then what people have become accustom to of late..  NO MORE "create all" and spit out 200 pairs of boots in 3 minutes.. LOL

    Originally posted by Amaranthar

    I like your idea. I'd like it to be refined, I think, since this needs to be thought through. But I think that's the sort of thing that true MMORPGs need to go to.

    I prefer skills gaining on use, not spending points.  I chose the point system to be a hard cap on how much talent a character can have, similar to SWG.. Sure the more you use something you become better at it, but there has to be a ceiling.. I don't want players being "grandmasters" in everything..

    I think the player should "train" his NPCs, and that would limit them to a skill ability below the players. Which would give the player who practices his skill by using it a leg up on the economic competition scale. Yep, that was my thought too.. I had envisioned that a player might mine ore at a rate of 10 units per pick, and have a cooldown of 1 pick per 10 minutes.. Now as the player levels their mining skill, they will be able to increase that to 11 units per pick and maybe reduce the cooldown 20 seconds.. etc etc..  As for the henchman.. He defaults to "running" a task to pick up 40 ore, but that will take them 6 hours?..  This would be a significant reduction in the rate of resourcing vs. the player.. Plus keep in mind too that if the henchman is out resourcing ore, they are unable to "craft" that robe you want them to do while your character is offline.. LOL 

    I really like the idea of resources in areas/zones. As in your example of maple and oak but not pine trees in an area. Same can go for minerals, crops, etc. However, there might be a smallish amount of most resources in a particular area that's dominated by a few resources. So instead of NO PINE trees, you might have A FEW.

    You can add in rarer resources, so in that area you've mentioned as an example, there might be the rarer Walnut, Cherry, or Hickory trees (which could be rare in any zone, this making them a rarer resource overall).

    Zoned resources give the option of having caravan trade. Players can run these too in a similar manner?

    That was my thought too..  It gives players the reason and need to travel the world and just not sit in one central HUB..  If player A lives in city  A, player B needs to travel to city A to buy those goods from the auction NPC there..  OR.. player A can risk the chance of moving (caravan) his product to city B..  I'm sure something can be worked out..

     

  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member EpicPosts: 5,851
    I'd rather spend my game time making a few items that players really want (and spend a premium for) and let my hired NPCs make the common gear (and I make the profits off that too). Reduce the quantities, increase the quality of economic game play.

    Once upon a time....

  • AlterVerseIraAlterVerseIra Member, Newbie CommonPosts: 14

    Hey all,

    We're AlterVerse, an in-development VR/MMO, with a rather robust crafting system and in-game economy. It seems like it may be of interest to this thread, so here's the short version:

    • Locks and Wealth are the name of the game! 
    • Locks are placed on your War Chest to help protect it from looting. You get Locks by completing Quests. Every Quest is rated in difficulty and assigned between 1-10 locks.
    • You can increase your Wealth in a variety of different ways...PvP, questing, mining, fishing, raiding Alliance forts etc. etc. more detailed info below.
    • Every Kingdom has two Forts and one Castle. Qualified Alliances vie for control of the Forts and the Castle to protect their Wealth. The Alliance who occupies the Castle is the Ruling Alliance, their Leader is the King or Queen of that Kingdom.
    • Alliance Treasuries:
      • All Fortified Alliances have an Alliance Treasury. Every time a player from a Fortified Alliance hits another Fortified Alliance's Treasury 50% goes in their pocket and 50% goes into their own Alliance's Treasury. The Alliance Leader can use the funds in the Alliance Treasury to place bounties and to pay his/her members as he/she sees fit. If a Renegade or anyone who is not in a Qualified Alliance hits an Alliance Treasury he only gets the equivalent of 30%.
    • War Chests:
      • Your War Chest contains all of your inventory except what you have on you in your backpack. War Chests of Fortified Alliance members can be placed into the fort's stronghold for protection. Rogue and Qualified Alliance members do not have a stronghold to protect their War Chests. They must carry their Chests with them or drop them in secluded areas or on their homestead for protection. You can put items in your War Chest from anywhere but you must physically go to it to get items out and put them in your Back Pack. If you're carrying your War Chest you must first drop it to get items out. If you're carrying your War Chest it is at risk if you are killed by another player! To raid someone's War Chest simply select it by clicking on it and then click it again and again until you break through all of the locks. Once you crack it open you'll receive a random percentage of the booty! Beware, the person you loot will be notified via text message in their Tap-Link of your dirty deed!
    • Locks: 
      • Every War Chest has locks. Maybe 1 maybe 100! You add more locks by completing Quests. When you have completed a 1 Lock Quest you will have one lock on your War Chest and so on. We have created a lot of quests already, as time goes on we will add many more, maybe you'll design one of them! 
    • Taxes: 
      • Where there are Kings and Queens there are taxes! Whenever you sell something to a merchant 10% of the cash goes to the Castle Treasury in your Home World.
    • Forts/Castles: 
      • All Forts are protected by 2 AI Guards 24/7. In the middle of the fort is a Bunker. Many of the Alliance's War Chests are stored inside. On top of the bunker is where the Alliance Treasure chest is kept. All Castles are protected by 5 AI Guards. Under the Castle is a tunnel system leading to a Stronghold where some of the Alliance's members War Chests and the Alliance's Treasury are stored. In order to take over a Fort or a Castle, players must zero out the Alliance's Treasury. As soon as it is zeroed out the Fort/Castle becomes claimable. In order to claim it the Leader of a Qualified or Fortified Alliance must click the Alliance Treasury. The first Alliance Leader to do this claims the fort. At that moment the Alliance Treasury is reset to 10,000 Arns and the Flags of the claiming Alliance are hung. If the Alliance was a Fortified Alliance and already had a Fort, their old Fort is instantly reset and claimable in the same manner. If the conquering Alliance was from a different Home World, the entire Alliance will be automatically switched to the new Home World.

    The long, more detailed explanation of our economy, crafting, and hunting/fishing systems is at: http://alterverse.com/modules.php?name=HowTo

    We're still tinkering with the game, and you seem like a smart gang, so please don't be shy about sharing any suggestions.  Thx!

    nolf
  • nolfnolf Member UncommonPosts: 869
    edited March 24

    Hey all,

    We're AlterVerse, an in-development VR/MMO, with a rather robust crafting system and in-game economy. It seems like it may be of interest to this thread, so here's the short version:

    • Locks and Wealth are the name of the game! 
    • Locks are placed on your War Chest to help protect it from looting. You get Locks by completing Quests. Every Quest is rated in difficulty and assigned between 1-10 locks.
    • You can increase your Wealth in a variety of different ways...PvP, questing, mining, fishing, raiding Alliance forts etc. etc. more detailed info below.
    • Every Kingdom has two Forts and one Castle. Qualified Alliances vie for control of the Forts and the Castle to protect their Wealth. The Alliance who occupies the Castle is the Ruling Alliance, their Leader is the King or Queen of that Kingdom.
    • Alliance Treasuries:
      • All Fortified Alliances have an Alliance Treasury. Every time a player from a Fortified Alliance hits another Fortified Alliance's Treasury 50% goes in their pocket and 50% goes into their own Alliance's Treasury. The Alliance Leader can use the funds in the Alliance Treasury to place bounties and to pay his/her members as he/she sees fit. If a Renegade or anyone who is not in a Qualified Alliance hits an Alliance Treasury he only gets the equivalent of 30%.
    • War Chests:
      • Your War Chest contains all of your inventory except what you have on you in your backpack. War Chests of Fortified Alliance members can be placed into the fort's stronghold for protection. Rogue and Qualified Alliance members do not have a stronghold to protect their War Chests. They must carry their Chests with them or drop them in secluded areas or on their homestead for protection. You can put items in your War Chest from anywhere but you must physically go to it to get items out and put them in your Back Pack. If you're carrying your War Chest you must first drop it to get items out. If you're carrying your War Chest it is at risk if you are killed by another player! To raid someone's War Chest simply select it by clicking on it and then click it again and again until you break through all of the locks. Once you crack it open you'll receive a random percentage of the booty! Beware, the person you loot will be notified via text message in their Tap-Link of your dirty deed!
    • Locks: 
      • Every War Chest has locks. Maybe 1 maybe 100! You add more locks by completing Quests. When you have completed a 1 Lock Quest you will have one lock on your War Chest and so on. We have created a lot of quests already, as time goes on we will add many more, maybe you'll design one of them! 
    • Taxes: 
      • Where there are Kings and Queens there are taxes! Whenever you sell something to a merchant 10% of the cash goes to the Castle Treasury in your Home World.
    • Forts/Castles: 
      • All Forts are protected by 2 AI Guards 24/7. In the middle of the fort is a Bunker. Many of the Alliance's War Chests are stored inside. On top of the bunker is where the Alliance Treasure chest is kept. All Castles are protected by 5 AI Guards. Under the Castle is a tunnel system leading to a Stronghold where some of the Alliance's members War Chests and the Alliance's Treasury are stored. In order to take over a Fort or a Castle, players must zero out the Alliance's Treasury. As soon as it is zeroed out the Fort/Castle becomes claimable. In order to claim it the Leader of a Qualified or Fortified Alliance must click the Alliance Treasury. The first Alliance Leader to do this claims the fort. At that moment the Alliance Treasury is reset to 10,000 Arns and the Flags of the claiming Alliance are hung. If the Alliance was a Fortified Alliance and already had a Fort, their old Fort is instantly reset and claimable in the same manner. If the conquering Alliance was from a different Home World, the entire Alliance will be automatically switched to the new Home World.

    The long, more detailed explanation of our economy, crafting, and hunting/fishing systems is at: http://alterverse.com/modules.php?name=HowTo

    We're still tinkering with the game, and you seem like a smart gang, so please don't be shy about sharing any suggestions.  Thx!


    I don't usually roll necromancers but just out of morbid curiosity, how'd Alterverse turn out?

    I really hope that *insert game name here* will be the first game to ever live up to all of its pre-release promises, maintain a manageable hype level and have a clean release. Just don't expect me to hold my breath.

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