It sounds so romantic to put it in that way 'develop the game alongside the players' when in reality the players will be experiencing bugs galore and more time on the log in screen than actually playing. I wish them the very best of luck but I'll pass.
There is the potential to be part of a process of positive growth one can't normally get when joining a game already in a release state. Such has understandable appeal.
Seems like it's yet another endless beta MMO with no direction or plan in sight. Wonderful.
Why go to all the trouble these days of finishing games. People are happy to just pay for early access. Most of them don't finish or end up garbage after the milking is done
The issue is they don't have the money to finish a game. Early access, crowd funding, these things give developers (of varying degrees of experience and/or skill) the opportunity to make a game.
The second issue is that many of them aren't up to the task.
And even if they have the skill or experience, they might not be able to do it.
Look at the recent "Wayward Realms" kickstarter that just launched. It's run by two developers who created Daggerfall. But their kickstarter shows very little, even though they've worked on it for several years.
As someone who has most of their crowdfunded projects actually launching, I'll tell you that I gave money because I'd "love" for it to work. But if someone were to ask me if I thought it had a better chance at happening I'd say "no, I don't really think it will happen.," Heck even if it happened, they are raising money so they can make it to Early Access and get a publisher.
bleah.
It would be a lot more transparent of them if they need the money to finish (which I'm sure is what's going on here) to just market it as crowdfunding/kickstarter. Trying to talk about it like, "We're LAUNCHING early access THAT YOU CAN BUY INTO," is just disingenous. I appreciate that investors only want to put money into MMOs that are built to have very broad appeal (i.e., not Pax Dei), so we don't get these games without another source of funding, but selling access to a very rough early alpha as if you get to "play the game early" is incredibly unethical.
How is it disingenuous or unethical? The offer for early access is clear enough. Buy into it or don't. What is unclear at this point is the cost after. That doesn't so much matter until 'after' is close to actually being a thing by which time those details will likely be known.
The problem is that there are no clear standards for how "finished" a game needs to be before it enters Early Access, and it would be nearly impossible to enact said standards because they would have to be so subjective.
The reason it might be considered unethical for Pax Dei to be in EA is because it's so far behind the curve of what players have grown to expect from an EA title. Yes, there's nothing technically prohibiting an EA title from being a terrible, buggy mess with very little content, but most EA titles are somewhat better than that. "Buyer beware" can only be stretched so far.
The solution is that Steam should enact a strict time limit on Early Access -- one year seems to be the expectation, even though in reality most titles take far longer. Also, all money collected should be held in "Steam escrow" -- no more using EA as a cash grab. (That's what Kickstarter is for.)
After one year, an EA title should either go to full launch or be removed from the store until it's ready, with full refunds to everyone who paid. No extensions, period. This would force developers to be a lot more careful and conservative in their estimates of how quickly they can finish the game.
I do not pay for "potential." I pay for a finished, polished, 100% ready-for-market game.
If you went out for a burger, how pleased would you be if you paid your money, only to be presented with a pound of raw ground beef and a pile of vegetables?
I can't wait for this nonsense to extend to other areas of entertainment like TV. "Follow Your Show Being Made! Buy the T-shirt before anyone else!"...show cancelled, no refunds.
Nothing tells me a studio has no clue what kind of game they want to make more than "we're making it along with our players". Hello, most players have zero idea or understanding about the difference between good and bad game design, in that design phase. We're good at ferreting out problems, issues, and bad design once we're playing, but we're generally horrible at coming up with good solutions to those that work well in the entire context of the game itself.
The problem is that if the developer doesn't have a strong vision the game gets designed by the loudest and most obnoxious players in discord.
They're starting out with open world PvP which means in 6 months they'll be Stardew Valley 2.
I do not pay for "potential." I pay for a finished, polished, 100% ready-for-market game.
If you went out for a burger, how pleased would you be if you paid your money, only to be presented with a pound of raw ground beef and a pile of vegetables?
I can't wait for this nonsense to extend to other areas of entertainment like TV. "Follow Your Show Being Made! Buy the T-shirt before anyone else!"...show cancelled, no refunds.
Nothing tells me a studio has no clue what kind of game they want to make more than "we're making it along with our players". Hello, most players have zero idea or understanding about the difference between good and bad game design, in that design phase. We're good at ferreting out problems, issues, and bad design once we're playing, but we're generally horrible at coming up with good solutions to those that work well in the entire context of the game itself.
The problem is that if the developer doesn't have a strong vision the game gets designed by the loudest and most obnoxious players in discord.
They're starting out with open world PvP which means in 6 months they'll be Stardew Valley 2.
Do not forget that saying one thing matters doesn't necessarily mean it does. I am literally about to launch a new robotics project at work. I already got the signoff of our CEO, CFO and Head of Operations. I've held calls all week with the local General Manager of the site, his boss, and others. Each call I tell them how I'm not going to go forward unless they are on board and give me input on how to make it better...
When reality is that I've already got the contract in hand and just want them to "feel" involved.
Kind of like Roberts had a "poll" to determine if he should keep Crowdfunding years ago.
I'm 99.9% sure these folks know exactly how they are going to monetize the game and have all the mechanics drawn out. They might tweak it based on feedback if something doesn't go as planned, but pretty sure this is just to make players "feel" like part of the cult.
(Saying that as I am literally in game right now chopping a tree... but I do so with my eyes wide open)
PS: The Open World PvP is in one specific zone. So you can avoid it. Even the rare resource that you are supposed to fight over in there can supposedly be found elsewhere. We shall see
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
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"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
After one year, an EA title should either go to full launch or be removed from the store until it's ready, with full refunds to everyone who paid. No extensions, period.
I don't agree with this.
First off it's very unrealistic as far as refunds. How can a company, that needed money, now refund ALL THE MONEY that was given to them as they used it over the year?
There should never be refunds offered and it should always be buyer beware.
I don't like the idea of no extensions. Creating a thing, anything, sometimes means that some ideas, once they have started to be implemented, take longer than one thought.
I think that if certain milestones were met over the year then some sort of extension could be granted for another year. Then perhaps the game could be pulled if it wasn't in full release.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
While I will probably buy it... this is a huge glaring 4 alarm red flag:
The exact business model and pricing of Pax Dei after Early Access are not defined yet. After release we plan to introduce, on top of the initial game purchase, a fee (subscription or similar) for on-going access to the game and plots. Founder's Packs include the initial game purchase, and the owner of a Founder’s Pack will also retain character slots and exclusive recipes included in their pack. We will be transparent about our future pricing plans and provide more details as we approach the official release.
Buyer Beware.
its goign to be sub base and then cost will be how many plots you want. hell might be a cheaper option if you dont need a plot
Whelp my interest and praise for this product and company just fell off a cliff. I had a lot of respect for what they were trying to do, and the more old school approach of them trying to do it. This "game" is in alpha phase at best currently. I've been part of multiple play tests. I love that, like monsters and memories, they were going old school alpha/beta testing inviting people in. Each play test you saw the improvements they made and they got to see how people reacted with the changes and new systems. However a couple play tests in, and now that they have some goodwill from the community, they're gonna go right for their pockets before this product is even actually a true game. I expected this company to have more integrity, and that was my fault. They can throw out any reasons they want for why they think this is a good idea. Only one reason would be truthful and they'll never say it, we want people's money now in case we can never finish this the way we want. Just removed Pax Dei from my wish list and my discord servers.
ea can be alpha state /beta state and alot of people been askign to play it more even its current state just wait till closer to release to check it out. plus no sub till release
If it is powerful enough to make the founder's pack worth buying the people who didn't get it will be upset. If it isn't powerful, why buy it? So yeah, plenty of red flags here.
then dont buy it there not holding a gun to your head
I will stand out from the doom and gloom and say my guild and I loved this game and played extensively during Alpha 2. I am fairly certain I will be playing well after 1 month. Their dungeon designs were really cool and there is alot to work with here.
I thought it was beautiful... but lacking a lot of actual GAME.
That said, our one guy who we usually charge with building our base thought it was one of the best games we played in recent memory
If it is powerful enough to make the founder's pack worth buying the people who didn't get it will be upset. If it isn't powerful, why buy it? So yeah, plenty of red flags here.
then dont buy it there not holding a gun to your head
Thanks for permission to not buy the game, you really let me off the hook.
This is a site were people post opinions on games, some pro, some con, and nobody here feels compelled to buy anything they don't want. So while you've been helpful, your services aren't required here.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
There is the potential to be part of a process of positive growth one can't normally get when joining a game already in a release state. Such has understandable appeal.
when do they get their money though? when they completely develop or before?
I will stand out from the doom and gloom and say my guild and I loved this game and played extensively during Alpha 2. I am fairly certain I will be playing well after 1 month. Their dungeon designs were really cool and there is alot to work with here.
I thought it was beautiful... but lacking a lot of actual GAME.
That said, our one guy who we usually charge with building our base thought it was one of the best games we played in recent memory
yea the base building is pretty complex
It's really not. If by complex you mean convoluted then sure. It's time consuming not complex, very simple actually.
After one year, an EA title should either go to full launch or be removed from the store until it's ready, with full refunds to everyone who paid. No extensions, period.
I don't agree with this.
First off it's very unrealistic as far as refunds. How can a company, that needed money, now refund ALL THE MONEY that was given to them as they used it over the year?
There should never be refunds offered and it should always be buyer beware.
I don't like the idea of no extensions. Creating a thing, anything, sometimes means that some ideas, once they have started to be implemented, take longer than one thought.
I think that if certain milestones were met over the year then some sort of extension could be granted for another year. Then perhaps the game could be pulled if it wasn't in full release.
You missed the part about "Steam escrow." The money collected is held by Steam, not passed on to the developer. The developer can use EA for feedback (as it's intended), but NOT as a fundraising tool. If they release the game, they get the money. If they don't, they don't.
The whole point of this is to keep games from languishing in EA for an eternity due to "taking longer than they thought." EVERYTHING takes longer than developers expect, so you need to acknowledge that and allow for a LOT of extra time.
You should not be putting your product on Early Access unless it's VERY near completion. If you think you can have it done in a few months, go for it. If it's open-ended and you have no idea what the finished state even looks like, it should be flat-out illegal for you to charge people money for your half-baked nonsense.
It sounds so romantic to put it in that way 'develop the game alongside the players' when in reality the players will be experiencing bugs galore and more time on the log in screen than actually playing. I wish them the very best of luck but I'll pass.
There is the potential to be part of a process of positive growth one can't normally get when joining a game already in a release state. Such has understandable appeal.
You missed the part about "Steam escrow." The money collected is held by Steam, not passed on to the developer. The developer can use EA for feedback (as it's intended), but NOT as a fundraising tool. If they release the game, they get the money. If they don't, they don't.
The whole point of this is to keep games from languishing in EA for an eternity due to "taking longer than they thought." EVERYTHING takes longer than developers expect, so you need to acknowledge that and allow for a LOT of extra time.
You should not be putting your product on Early Access unless it's VERY near completion. If you think you can have it done in a few months, go for it. If it's open-ended and you have no idea what the finished state even looks like, it should be flat-out illegal for you to charge people money for your half-baked nonsense.
Ahhh well if that’s true then that’s a whole different matzo ball!
edit: I'm searching and I'm not finding anything that indicates the sales from early access go into an escrow account and the developers only get it if they release.
According to this, developers get paid while in early access.
You missed the part about "Steam escrow." The money collected is held by Steam, not passed on to the developer. The developer can use EA for feedback (as it's intended), but NOT as a fundraising tool. If they release the game, they get the money. If they don't, they don't.
The whole point of this is to keep games from languishing in EA for an eternity due to "taking longer than they thought." EVERYTHING takes longer than developers expect, so you need to acknowledge that and allow for a LOT of extra time.
You should not be putting your product on Early Access unless it's VERY near completion. If you think you can have it done in a few months, go for it. If it's open-ended and you have no idea what the finished state even looks like, it should be flat-out illegal for you to charge people money for your half-baked nonsense.
Ahhh well if that’s true then that’s a whole different matzo ball!
edit: I'm searching and I'm not finding anything that indicates the sales from early access go into an escrow account and the developers only get it if they release.
According to this, developers get paid while in early access.
You missed the part about "Steam escrow." The money collected is held by Steam, not passed on to the developer. The developer can use EA for feedback (as it's intended), but NOT as a fundraising tool. If they release the game, they get the money. If they don't, they don't.
The whole point of this is to keep games from languishing in EA for an eternity due to "taking longer than they thought." EVERYTHING takes longer than developers expect, so you need to acknowledge that and allow for a LOT of extra time.
You should not be putting your product on Early Access unless it's VERY near completion. If you think you can have it done in a few months, go for it. If it's open-ended and you have no idea what the finished state even looks like, it should be flat-out illegal for you to charge people money for your half-baked nonsense.
Ahhh well if that’s true then that’s a whole different matzo ball!
edit: I'm searching and I'm not finding anything that indicates the sales from early access go into an escrow account and the developers only get it if they release.
According to this, developers get paid while in early access.
This was all my hypothetical fix for making Early Access less problematic than it is now, not how it actually works.
You can't just read the last post of a long thread if you want it to make sense.
The verbiage made it sound like it was “A thing.”
You can’t just make a statement in a long thread and assume that every little post has been appropriately digested so that some later post will make sense.
On topic and after some thought, I don't agree with the idea of an escrow account. At least from the developers’ perspective.
What would be the point? It seems the idea of early access really is to allow developers an easier time without struggling.
This just sounds like player frustration when adopting a “buyer beware” attitude would suffice just fine.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
From my point of view, this is purely a community issue. Espcially as this game is supposed to be all about community. A long early access period just results in fragmenting the launchday playerbase, so instead of getting 500k players on launch day, those 500k are spread out over years. This makes it much harder to achieve that critical mass of players needed to really get the community working properly.
Currently Playing: WAR RoR - Spitt rr7X Black Orc | Scrotling rr6X Squig Herder | Scabrous rr4X Shaman
From my point of view, this is purely a community issue. Espcially as this game is supposed to be all about community. A long early access period just results in fragmenting the launchday playerbase, so instead of getting 500k players on launch day, those 500k are spread out over years. This makes it much harder to achieve that critical mass of players needed to really get the community working properly.
I think that depends on how they do it.
If they’re clear that there will be a wipe before launch then it’s a non-issue.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
From my point of view, this is purely a community issue. Espcially as this game is supposed to be all about community. A long early access period just results in fragmenting the launchday playerbase, so instead of getting 500k players on launch day, those 500k are spread out over years. This makes it much harder to achieve that critical mass of players needed to really get the community working properly.
I think that depends on how they do it.
If they’re clear that there will be a wipe before launch then it’s a non-issue.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Comments
There is the potential to be part of a process of positive growth one can't normally get when joining a game already in a release state. Such has understandable appeal.
They're starting out with open world PvP which means in 6 months they'll be Stardew Valley 2.
When reality is that I've already got the contract in hand and just want them to "feel" involved.
Kind of like Roberts had a "poll" to determine if he should keep Crowdfunding years ago.
I'm 99.9% sure these folks know exactly how they are going to monetize the game and have all the mechanics drawn out. They might tweak it based on feedback if something doesn't go as planned, but pretty sure this is just to make players "feel" like part of the cult.
(Saying that as I am literally in game right now chopping a tree... but I do so with my eyes wide open)
PS: The Open World PvP is in one specific zone. So you can avoid it. Even the rare resource that you are supposed to fight over in there can supposedly be found elsewhere. We shall see
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
its goign to be sub base and then cost will be how many plots you want. hell might be a cheaper option if you dont need a plot
ea can be alpha state /beta state and alot of people been askign to play it more even its current state just wait till closer to release to check it out. plus no sub till release
then dont buy it there not holding a gun to your head
yea the base building is pretty complex
This is a site were people post opinions on games, some pro, some con, and nobody here feels compelled to buy anything they don't want. So while you've been helpful, your services aren't required here.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Were you around for Vanguard Saga of Heroes?
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Call of Duty Black Ops 6 should have a coop zombie mode. It will be on GamePass according to Microsoft.
You can’t just make a statement in a long thread and assume that every little post has been appropriately digested so that some later post will make sense.
On topic and after some thought, I don't agree with the idea of an escrow account. At least from the developers’ perspective.
What would be the point? It seems the idea of early access really is to allow developers an easier time without struggling.
This just sounds like player frustration when adopting a “buyer beware” attitude would suffice just fine.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Remember that recent scam zombie survival game (yeah, I know, they all are scams) The Day Before or whatever?
Steam had no problem recovering everyone's money to pay out full refunds, many well past the standard 2 hr / 2 week policy.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
If they’re clear that there will be a wipe before launch then it’s a non-issue.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon