Greg 'Ghostcrawler' Street Feels Leveling 'Should Be an Accomplishment, Not a Blip' | MMORPG.com

System · September 15

Greg 'Ghostcrawler' Street Feels Leveling 'Should Be an Accomplishment, Not a Blip' | MMORPG.com

Greg "Ghostcrawler" Street recently took to Twitter/X to share his thoughts on power leveling in MMOs.

toljar · September 15

Asheron's Call did leveling an such a great way. You could be in yourt 50's playing with friends in their 80's+ and still accomplisht he same goals and nto be a dead weight.

Dattelis · September 15

Cool, but what does NetEase feel leveling should be? Since they are backing his project after all.

That said, I always felt leveling should introduce you to systems that you're going to engage in for the rest of the game, not just focus on the new abilities you're going to get. Introduce general raids at lower levels instead of just the 'end game,' same for certain currencies and just make it so you earn more of them as you get higher in level so you can make progress as you level up. There's plenty of ways to handling leveling instead of just giving someone a new ability to look forward to and a new place to quest in/dungeon to run. Tbh, WoW Remix kind of hit the nail on making leveling a bit more 'involved,' since you could gradual do raids, which still gave exp but also worked on cloak progression. It was accelerated, sure, but the overall idea was solid and varied it up a little.

Neoyoshi · September 15

I can agree with this, leveling did at one point used to feel like the end goal in older mmorpg's i played, like this old Chinese mmo called Conquer Online.

In Conquer online i recall it took me about 2 months to get my character to max level; which was level 120, than it had a rebirth system where you could change classes to mix up your skills and passives, so again, another 2 months, and so on.

To get to where i wanted on my CO character; which was Trojan120/Warrior120/Trojan120, i had to spend a total of 6 months just leveling.

All this was back in 2004/2005. And before that, there was this Singapore mmorpg i played called: Oz World Online -where Fishing was the way you leveled in the game, that game.... holy crap it took so long to level, you had to fish... A F@%king LOT, but it was so fun.

Today there are still ways to find games that still feel this way; like Diablo 2 Resurrected, where getting to level 99 on ladder still takes a great deal of time and dedication.

Quizzical · September 15

Uncharted Waters Origin released a year and a half ago, and there is still no one at the level cap of 99, though one person is getting close and will probably be there by the end of the year. Meanwhile, the last patch took out much of the level gating, so no region in the game requires above level 40 anymore.

Super slow leveling where you can't do what you want until after you slog through it is a problem. If you're having fun on the way, then continuing to get stronger for a very long time is fine.

KnightFalz · September 15

Leveling should be whatever the player desires with the game chosen in accordance with that preference.

Angrakhan · September 15

Eh the games I've played where reaching max level was a noteworthy event ... vanilla EQ, vanilla WoW, even recent games like Last Epoch... it seemed largely to be a design decision by the developers to mask the fact that there really wasn't much to do at max level. Take vanilla WoW pre molten core, for example. It has this LONG slog to 50 to end up with a handful of 5 mans and 2 10 man raids, and that was about it. Yeah if it had today's leveling curve you'd have a pile of 50's two weeks in asking "well now what?"

Anyway, so when a game developer tells me they want to harken back to the olden days of long leveling times I want to say "so you're telling me you don't have any content for end game. Got it!"

Kalafax · September 15

As long as there is good progress and content I totally agree, I hate the quick level of current games, if your reaching max level in any sort of "MMO" in a week or less then its absolutely too quick. Would love to go back to the times when it was at least a month if not more before anyone was hitting max level and that's only those who were no-lifing it. However for this to work it requires developers to create copious amounts of engaging and fun content all through the world and level ranges and most companies just dont want to do that, they want to sink a little money in the story/leveling portion of the game, and then focus purely on the "end" game portion then hope they are keep the players entertained until the next update that pushes the yardstick of "end" game.

Boomingechoes · September 15

Except MMOs have all practically been about the endgame. Even now a game like FFXIV struggles because everyone wants to be in the endgame, but they've made it so the main quest, and in a way the leveling through it, is important, but it doesn't matter because all of that content is old news. That game also makes it impossible to get to that endgame unless you pay money to skip content, making it a wall, then a cash grab.

So I guess I'm saying they need to figure out how to make being level 70 in a level 100 world feel important still, because it stops being anything more than a speed bump otherwise when the content becomes considered outdated. That's really not on the players when the developers have to sell new expansions to keep the lights on. If people are busy still "enjoying" mid-game that already been patched into ultra-stability, they've got no reason to keep the bulk of developers employed most of the games uptime

elveone · September 15

And right after that her goes on to harp about how important the endgame is... Oh, god, it will be another one of those games where you slog through a mediocre levelling experience for ages because the famous designer has promised a killer endgame only to find out that the endgame is just another tired combination of old ideas that the designer thinks is original.

The reason people hate levelling is because levelling has become meaningless because of the focus on the all-important endgame. No the levelling experience should not be "a bit of an effort", it should be dynamic and fun and present you with all the challenge that the endgame does because the game should be a consistent whole and not two separate parts with different design decisions for each part.

Greg Street is an RTS designer. If he says he is doing another Age of Empires or whatever - I'm there. But in MMOs he kind of looks at the characters that we are playing not as RPG characters but as RTS units with specific and very limited skillset. That is why during his reign we continually got less and less talents. That is why he wants to have a ton of classes in his new game that are strictly specialized. How the hell can you make a levelling experience in an RPG where the complexity of your character is comparable to that of an RTS unit interesting? I am honestly baffled why people are excited about an MMO with him at the helm. Perhaps because he was a charismatic designer who communicated a lot with the audience during the height of WoW's popularity they actually forget what changes he pushed to the game? In any case so far he has not proven that he has the competency to make a good MMO. Let's hope he proves me wrong.

elric_of_melnibone · September 15

Neoyoshi said:

I can agree with this, leveling did at one point used to feel like the end goal in older mmorpg's i played, like this old Chinese mmo called Conquer Online.

In Conquer online i recall it took me about 2 months to get my character to max level; which was level 120, than it had a rebirth system where you could change classes to mix up your skills and passives, so again, another 2 months, and so on.

To get to where i wanted on my CO character; which was Trojan120/Warrior120/Trojan120, i had to spend a total of 6 months just leveling.

All this was back in 2004/2005. And before that, there was this Singapore mmorpg i played called: Oz World Online -where Fishing was the way you leveled in the game, that game.... holy crap it took so long to level, you had to fish... A F@%king LOT, but it was so fun.

Today there are still ways to find games that still feel this way; like Diablo 2 Resurrected, where getting to level 99 on ladder still takes a great deal of time and dedication.

Can't tell if this is a joke. I think most people coming from this perspective are thinking of games like Everquest, Final Fantasy XI, Lineage 2 etc where it could take one or more years to get to level cap with very regular play. It too me much longer than that in Final Fantasy XI. And I agree with the sentiment. Early MMORPGs were born from Dungeons & Dragons pencil and paper campaigns where it was all about the adventure. I had the most fun in my early MMORPG days getting to the level cap, not at the level cap.

Neoyoshi · September 16

elric_of_melnibone said:

Neoyoshi said:

I can agree with this, leveling did at one point used to feel like the end goal in older mmorpg's i played, like this old Chinese mmo called Conquer Online.

In Conquer online i recall it took me about 2 months to get my character to max level; which was level 120, than it had a rebirth system where you could change classes to mix up your skills and passives, so again, another 2 months, and so on.

To get to where i wanted on my CO character; which was Trojan120/Warrior120/Trojan120, i had to spend a total of 6 months just leveling.

All this was back in 2004/2005. And before that, there was this Singapore mmorpg i played called: Oz World Online -where Fishing was the way you leveled in the game, that game.... holy crap it took so long to level, you had to fish... A F@%king LOT, but it was so fun.

Today there are still ways to find games that still feel this way; like Diablo 2 Resurrected, where getting to level 99 on ladder still takes a great deal of time and dedication.

Can't tell if this is a joke. I think most people coming from this perspective are thinking of games like Everquest, Final Fantasy XI, Lineage 2 etc where it could take one or more years to get to level cap with very regular play. It too me much longer than that in Final Fantasy XI.

And I agree with the sentiment. Early MMORPGs were born from Dungeons & Dragons pencil and paper campaigns where it was all about the adventure. I had the most fun in my early MMORPG days getting to the level cap, not at the level cap.

?

I was just recounting some of my experiences in two games i found memorable to me; i don't know how any of that could be misconstrued as a joke, but sure.... alright.

older games back than were just built with the journey being the whole experience, or part of the experience, but at some point developers wanted to start making content with player retention in mind ( World of Warcraft being one of the first to probably do that ) and making the leveling process shorter and shorter over the years.

I'm not suggesting leveling a character HAS to take a year, or even 2 months, but the process needs to feel rewarding and memorable, and not just a simple checkmark on a box; regardless of how it's achieved.

Aeander · September 16

And I couldn't disagree with him more.

Robokapp · September 16

KnightFalz said:

Leveling should be whatever the player desires with the game chosen in accordance with that preference.

I desire it to be as Greg said.

Xiaoki · September 16

Angrakhan said:

Eh the games I've played where reaching max level was a noteworthy event ... vanilla EQ, vanilla WoW, even recent games like Last Epoch... it seemed largely to be a design decision by the developers to mask the fact that there really wasn't much to do at max level. Take vanilla WoW pre molten core, for example. It has this LONG slog to 50 to end up with a handful of 5 mans and 2 10 man raids, and that was about it. Yeah if it had today's leveling curve you'd have a pile of 50's two weeks in asking "well now what?"

Anyway, so when a game developer tells me they want to harken back to the olden days of long leveling times I want to say "so you're telling me you don't have any content for end game. Got it!"

Vanilla WoW Pre-Molten Core?

You mean closed beta?

Onyxia and Molten Core were both added 3 weeks before WoW launched. Which, also explains why they were so buggy.

Neoyoshi · September 16

Sounds like everyone pretty much has a particular way they like to experience the adventure.

It puts devs into the position of having to choose a single vision, because there is just no way in hell to please everyone; so may as well stick to your vision and hope it at least pleases 50% of the audience. xD

elric_of_melnibone · September 16

Angrakhan said:

Eh the games I've played where reaching max level was a noteworthy event ... vanilla EQ, vanilla WoW, even recent games like Last Epoch... it seemed largely to be a design decision by the developers to mask the fact that there really wasn't much to do at max level. Take vanilla WoW pre molten core, for example. It has this LONG slog to 50 to end up with a handful of 5 mans and 2 10 man raids, and that was about it. Yeah if it had today's leveling curve you'd have a pile of 50's two weeks in asking "well now what?"

Anyway, so when a game developer tells me they want to harken back to the olden days of long leveling times I want to say "so you're telling me you don't have any content for end game. Got it!"

I think it was the other way around. The assumption was that the journey to end game was more important than end game after launch, because the assumption was also that people wouldn’t (or couldn’t) rush to the end and there was time to implement more endgame stuff. Obviously worked for both EQ and WoW given how popular they were. I don’t remember many people really complaining, we were having too much fun “slogging” to 50 (not sure how you thought it was a slog, early WoW was fantastic all the way to endgame), leveling alts to experience different angles of the game (horde, alliance, stating areas, classes).

cheyane · September 16

I only enjoy leveling and not the end game. The happiest time I had in WoW when it came out was the leveling. I hated the end game. I don't like grinding money to buy potions I need or buy herbs to get the guild alchemist to make the potion for me. It was just a slog but the leveling itself was so much fun. Join groups do dungeons and heal and keep people alive and have exciting times with 4 others or 7. But raiding was no fun at all.

I am afraid the end game for me is the worst part of an MMORPG.

Scot · September 16

But to make it an achievement you need to make it harder and stop corner cutting methods. The whole direction of travel in MMO land is ever easier everything from levelling to crafting to fishing. So I agree but it is not an easy adjustment to make to todays MMOs, what studio out there has the courage?

SplitStream13 · September 16

I'm an old dog, I wouldn't mind slow leveling. I did that shit in Lineage 2. Thing is, most of game designers forget about the people at 'mid-game'. Like, you have a really strong game start to hook you in. And then you have a promising endgame that's designed to keep you entertained for months. What happens is ... the group in the middle gets the short end of the stick. Lineage had it dialed it, you had raids, crafts, gear tiers etc in the mid game and those gear tiers were so fucking awesome they ended up being better overall in mass pvp than best-in-slot gear.

After countless of MMOs i've lost hope in game designers. Just let me reach endgame and let me be. Let me play at my own pace you fuckers.

deniter · September 16

The so-called endgame is just that - the end of the game. You have nothing else to do anymore so you're doomed to run the same instances for as long as you want to play. Those instances being raid instances designed for more than 5-10 players doesn't make it more valuable to me.

In this regard i find it silly they have gradually made the leveling part of the game faster, easier, more effortless, more linear and less fun so that a player will reach the treadmill part sooner rather than later.

Germzypie · September 16

My first MMO was DAoC. Took me about 4 months of fairly heavy playtime to get to max level. It was great and felt like an accomplishment. Ah, the good ole days. Now i feel like no matter the game, someone is max level in just a few hours. It is no longer about the journey.

ShinyFlygon · September 16

Greg could not be more wrong. If we're talking about an MMO where the endgame is meant to be where the player spends the vast majority of their time, then leveling should not exist at all.

cameltosis · September 16

I don't mind leveling being an achievement. Simply making it take a long time isn't much an achievement though, I need some genuine challenge from the content......and that's very rare.

I'm much more an endgame player. Leveling has always felt a bit like going to school - im learning theory, which is useful, but im not really applying that learning. Endgame is where I actually put that theory to proper use. It's where mastery occurs, its where i solve tough problems. Its where there is real challenge.

Elidien_ga · September 16

I think there is a correlation to leveling and time commitment. I love leveling and can think back to getting my first max level in games like EQ and DAOC. It was solely about the time I put into it. I wish leveling could be challenging but in ways that did not just require a deep time allowance. I am not sure how such could be done but that's where my frustration lies in the current design. I do like having options in leveling as well and that's one way games could make leveling a better experience across the board.

Quizzical · September 16

If you're going to make an MMORPG that is all about the endgame, then just let players start there, or perhaps get there after a quick tutorial. Don't make lower level content trivial and boring, and then insist that players have to slog through it anyway. Either make the lower level content interesting in itself or else get rid of it.

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