I should be able to progress without logging into the game.
Let me know when you've got that worked out.
Some idle games offer exactly that. You do have to log in now and then to do certain things, but you continue progressing even after you've logged out.
I don't mind "forced grouping" as long as their is an easy to use group finder for all content.
When you have a game like Destiny 2 though that locks content behind a group activity with no group finder (the last Gjallarhorn event as an example), that's not ok. You are locking out players who don't have a regular group and that's not ok. No where do any of these games say a requirement to play them is a regular group of friends.
Depends how the game is designed. I find it interesting that while MMOs are allegedly all about grouping they by in large make it really painful to do so.
Let me case in point this by calling out the opposite extreme of games where it's very easy to group: Darktide/Vermintide, Space Marine 2, Helldivers 2, Left 4 Dead, Aliens: Fire team Elite. The irony? None of these games are MMOs. All of them are designed around co-op play and "force" grouping although most of them will backfill a party with bots if not enough people are available at the point in time you're trying to start a game.
MMO developers need to take a hard look at the above games and try to understand how they can apply similar designs into their MMO to make grouping easier and more seamlessly integrated into the game. If someone has to spam zone chat with LGF messages to get a group you have failed to design a grouping friendly game. Nobody wants to do that. I should be able to log in and within 30 seconds pick an activity type I want to participate in and find a group. If that's not technically possible in your game you have not designed your game around being group friendly. You have rather built barriers to grouping in your game that is allegedly designed to be about grouping. Others have done it, so don't tell me it can't be done.
You cannot assume everyone playing your game has a cavalcade of real life friends they can call upon to form groups with. Most human beings don't play MMOs. I am 51 years old and I can count on one hand the number of personal friends I've had they have played MMOs. I have plenty of friends and family in my life, they just aren't MMO gamers if they're gamers at all. My guess my experience is not unique. I would venture to say my experience is actually normal and average. That means you need to design systems and tools in your game for players like me to find other players at the drop of a hat that are doing the same content.
No guilds aren't the answer. I've lost count of the guilds I've been in where I was just another of a pile of 5th wheels in the guild out soloing watching green guild spam go by. My typical guild experience is there's a core set of friends who have all aligned their schedules to play with one another and then there's everyone else. You can't break into this inner circle because their groups are always full.
I guess that's a big enough wall of text on the subject for now.
TLDR; yes you can force grouping for progression if you design your game around making grouping up easy.
I am not in favor of putting a gate to progression that requires you to group. I do like grouping and do it all the time; I regularly run pickup groups in CoH and we have a blast.
CoH gives you the option, you can set the difficulty so that a solo player would have little or no chance to do the mission. There are also raids that require grouping and in some cases multiple groups to succeed, like with a Hami raid. You need over 40 players to do that.
However, you can set the difficulty down and progress just fine solo if you want to; so I want solo play and group play, but I don't want to *have* to group to make progress.
Playing an older MMO that has been redone over the years called "Villagers and Heroes".....What is nice about the game is there are some strong bosses (called Elders) that you can only solo if you are significantly stronger than them (15 levels or so higher), so players willinglty group up for them and everyone seems to enjoy it....It is refreshing to see a game where people actually want to group again.
There is no such thing as forced grouping btw, because if there was we would also have "forced soloing" as the vast majority of MMO content nowadays is made for solo players.
SW:TOR's base story could be solo'ed or done with a group. While the class storylines didn't the planetary story lines would grant story progression credit to everybody in the group.
Fast forward a few years to the KotFE/ET debacle and that pretty much went up in smoke. Only one participant got progression credit despite it being a shared storyline. IIRC there were at least a few instances where you were required to play it solo.
FF:XIV's MSQ is littered with forced solo AND forced group instances. The best part is that game gates quite a bit of content behind story progression. The alternatives are to pay for a story skip or just stop playing.
I think you're splitting semantic hairs denying that it's forced. Call it "quid pro quo" if it makes you feel better but it's still making players choose between terrible options. Back us into a corner enough times and people will eventually move on.
First, you need to distinguish between "optional" progression and "required" progression.
Optional progression is stuff like dungeons that reward gear. If you complete the dungeon, you get better gear, and your character has progressed. That sort of thing is totally fine, because players can choose whether or not to do it. And if you dont do it, you're not prevented from doing other content.
Required progression is things like having to complete a specific quest before you can access other content. It acts like a gate to the rest of the game. Making that require a group is dumb, because then if you can't get a group (or just dont want to group) then you're locked out of playing.
Second, "forced" grouping in a game with vertical progression is always dumb. We've seen this play out in virtually every single MMORPG ever. vertical progression segregates the community too much, making finding a group hard. It also results in the majority of players only playing at endgame (where everyone is teh same level), so unless you level up during the main rush, you're gonna have a very hard time finding groups.
This is why virtually every game has drifted towards solo play during the leveling process. It has nothing to do with player preferences, and everything to do with the inevitable side-effects of a badly designed progression system.
Currently Playing: WAR RoR - Spitt rr7X Black Orc | Scrotling rr6X Squig Herder | Scabrous rr4X Shaman
Forced has another meaning and that it is produced or maintained with effort or a necessity. It does not only mean against you will. So in gaming when you play you might do something you don't want to because you need something else like progression. It does seemed forced if a player does not want to group but has to for progress it is a necessity so the word 'forced' isn't inaccurate.
I can attest to being completely unwilling to raid in Everquest but being called by phone by guildees to log in now because the dragon spawned. That was 'forced' , I could not refuse them because it would have affected my relationship with guild members. So I 'forced' myself to play when I had zero desire and sometimes not even the time but had to drop some real life commitment to do so. This aspect of Everquest sucked. What was even more ridiculous was that I did it.
It's disingenuous to argue that players accept forced grouping just by playing a game unless the entire content is based around it.
As I view MMORPGs as virtual worlds forced grouping is an undesirable mechanic especially if the storyline is blocked from completion by it.
I had been playing New world for about 9 months but when the Desert expansion came out I got pretty far into the story solo but the final story arc was gated behind a 5 person dungeon run.
As my soild was only 4 people at the time we took a few cracks at it with a random but never came close to clearing it.
So having leveled my gear up to max and decided the new seasonal passes were pretty useless and not fun so I left the game for good.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I've always fealt mmos were a space that encouraged grouping. Nothing forced. Accepting help offered was a (slightly) rare boon. But I could still wander, meander, even purpose-fully play in a counterintuitive way. A lot of the games offered nowadays are group heavy. If you don't group, you dont progress. I know mmos are MULTIPLAYER, but I still feel the (I hate to say solo) aspect of it all is lost. You are NEVER always grouped. You start a character, on your own, and by the skin of your teeth, or the enemies you survive. Grouping should be a way to expedite progress, but never limit it.
There is no such thing as forced grouping btw, because if there was we would also have "forced soloing" as the vast majority of MMO content nowadays is made for solo players.
Actually, New World did that in the sense that there was a low-level quest you couldn't complete (couldn't even enter the dungeon) without a group.
I presume you did not have to do that quest to progress to the next level though so you were not "forced" to group.
The best way to have grouping in MMOs is to introduce it slowly, so one grouping quest every five levels would be ideal. If you don't do that quest you miss out on some gear that will be useful in the next grouping quests, this continues until you get to raids.
Now you could make that gear only really useful when you group, the stats get a bonus when you do so. This assumes a game where multiple outfits can be quickly switched.
There are many ways you can mitigate the issue of solo and grouping but none solve the basic issue that you have two styles of play and that they will never sit well together. But like every other aspect of a MMO, what makes the genre so great is the diversity of gameplay making a gestalt which is far better than its ingredients.
I remember when LoTRO came out it had forced, or required, grouping. You literally couldn't continue to play the game unless you grouped up to do certain dungeons (Great Barrow). If you didn't group you couldn't enter the dungeon and that means you cannot play any more of the main quest story. There was a lot of pushback at this and they changed it so you could do those tasks solo.
CoH also has a quest that literally cannot be done without a large group. The Hami raid requires over 40 people and rewards you with an enhancement that cannot be gotten any other way. Is that "forced" grouping? No, because you could do the whole rest of the game without that enhancement. So it was optional.
Any time a game requires a certain playstyle, like PvP or grouping, it has limited the audience for that game. I like PvP and I like grouping, but if I *have* to do it to play the game, I probably will skip that game. I want the option to PvP if and when I want to, and to group if and when I want to.
Of course it is the game dev's decision: if they decide that players *must* PvP or group to play, then that is fine, Just don't expect as big of a market for that game.
edit: I'd put crafting in the same category, what if a game required you to make all your own armor and weapons?
edit: I'd put crafting in the same category, what if a game required you to make all your own armor and weapons?
IMHO the correct analogy would be a game that makes you craft certain items on your own. And we have had that in games forever.
We have those games now, they are usually called "survival" games. The goal of the game is to craft all your own stuff. They have a certain appeal and people play them for that reason.
I'm not aware of any MMO that requires the player to craft something themselves or else they cannot play the game any further.
I remember when LoTRO came out it had forced, or required, grouping. You literally couldn't continue to play the game unless you grouped up to do certain dungeons (Great Barrow). If you didn't group you couldn't enter the dungeon and that means you cannot play any more of the main quest story. There was a lot of pushback at this and they changed it so you could do those tasks solo.
See, what I remember from early LotRO is that the forced grouping was a big reason why LotRO ended up with the best community I've ever been a part of.
From like level 3 onwards, there was a lot of group content. The game set it's expectations on players right from the get go, and trained it's players to work together. Early group content was easy, and got progressively harder throughout the game. Combined with highly differentiated combat roles and a deep combat system, we were taught the importance of working together. Never before or since have I been part of a community with such a strong PUG scene.
But, of course, the game was built on vertical progression, so even after just 3 months after launch it started becoming very hard to find groups because most of us were at endgame, and so all that group content became an impassable gate (i remember having to grind mobs to level from 47-50 on my first alt because i couldnt find groups at that time). Hence Turbine had to spend a lot of time and money revamping the original leveling content, making it mostly solo or adding alternative leveling routes to avoid the group content.
They learnt their lesson, and every expansion largely avoided group content during the leveling process. They didn't want to waste money on revamps again.
The positive was this made the game much more accessible and easy for the solo player as well as the late-to-the-party players. The knockon effect was a diminishing in the community. New players were no longer being trained to work together, it wasn't standard practice anymore. They didn't learn how to play their classes in groups, which meant they missed out on half the fun of their class and nearly all the depth, resulting in a lot of complaints about boring gameplay.
Currently Playing: WAR RoR - Spitt rr7X Black Orc | Scrotling rr6X Squig Herder | Scabrous rr4X Shaman
edit: I'd put crafting in the same category, what if a game required you to make all your own armor and weapons?
IMHO the correct analogy would be a game that makes you craft certain items on your own. And we have had that in games forever.
We have those games now, they are usually called "survival" games. The goal of the game is to craft all your own stuff. They have a certain appeal and people play them for that reason.
I'm not aware of any MMO that requires the player to craft something themselves or else they cannot play the game any further.
Well not "or else they cannot play the game any further" but plenty have you have to personally craft an item because it binds to you. Can you play without the item? Sure. But if you want it, and the advantage it may bring, you need to craft it.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
It's disingenuous to argue that players accept forced grouping just by playing a game unless the entire content is based around it.
As I view MMORPGs as virtual worlds ...
Great, but what do the developers of their specific games view their game worlds as?
Because all I'm seeing here are people who have very specific viewpoints of what mmorpg's "should be" and "should allow" but the actual reality is that the developers have developed their games to be played in specific ways.
Too many people saying "I believe it should be this ...." but that means nothing when they haven't actually made the game.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
edit: I'd put crafting in the same category, what if a game required you to make all your own armor and weapons?
IMHO the correct analogy would be a game that makes you craft certain items on your own. And we have had that in games forever.
We have those games now, they are usually called "survival" games. The goal of the game is to craft all your own stuff. They have a certain appeal and people play them for that reason.
I'm not aware of any MMO that requires the player to craft something themselves or else they cannot play the game any further.
Well not "or else they cannot play the game any further" but plenty have you have to personally craft an item because it binds to you. Can you play without the item? Sure. But if you want it, and the advantage it may bring, you need to craft it.
Right, that is the difference between optional and required. I have no problem with grouping or PvP or crafting if it's optional, even if you get unique buffs or benefits from it. I don't want it to become a gate so that if you don't do it you cannot progress any further.
If they want to make it required then they have to know that they are limiting their market size to people who want that.
It's disingenuous to argue that players accept forced grouping just by playing a game unless the entire content is based around it.
As I view MMORPGs as virtual worlds ...
Great, but what do the developers of their specific games view their game worlds as?
Because all I'm seeing here are people who have very specific viewpoints of what mmorpg's "should be" and "should allow" but the actual reality is that the developers have developed their games to be played in specific ways.
Too many people saying "I believe it should be this ...." but that means nothing when they haven't actually made the game.
Yeah, but it's my money they are trying to get and not the other way around.
It's my way or the high way... Which is why I don't play very many MMORPGS these days, at least not for very long.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
omg, there's no such thing as "forced grouping." If the game has grouping then consider it a "grouping game" and be done with it.
Now, I will say that getting a group together for one "quick" quest is not the answer. There should be several things in a row that require grouping so as to justify the effort it takes at getting people together.
Any game with content that can only be cleared by groups has an element of forced grouping. It is not literally forced as one need not do that content but it is effectively so for those that want to complete it.
Forced means you are doing something against your will.
If a game has a lot of grouping content then people have to assess whether or not that is something for them.
Otherwise it’s all “forced.” Forced grouping, forced solo, forced everything.
Or, these are the activities in the game that one has to do in order to progress.
omg, there's no such thing as "forced grouping." If the game has grouping then consider it a "grouping game" and be done with it.
Now, I will say that getting a group together for one "quick" quest is not the answer. There should be several things in a row that require grouping so as to justify the effort it takes at getting people together.
Any game with content that can only be cleared by groups has an element of forced grouping. It is not literally forced as one need not do that content but it is effectively so for those that want to complete it.
Forced means you are doing something against your will.
If a game has a lot of grouping content then people have to assess whether or not that is something for them.
Otherwise it’s all “forced.” Forced grouping, forced solo, forced everything.
Or, these are the activities in the game that one has to do in order to progress.
Yes, that's what it means. Being forced to group with others to clear content that I could clear solo if I was only allowed to access it by myself is against my will. Wargfoot provided an example of that in this very thread. It is especially annoying when a quest that mandates a group is stuck in the middle of a solo quest chain thus inhibiting one's overall progress through the story unless they concede to that out of place demand.
There is no such thing as forced grouping btw, because if there was we would also have "forced soloing" as the vast majority of MMO content nowadays is made for solo players.
Actually, New World did that in the sense that there was a low-level quest you couldn't complete (couldn't even enter the dungeon) without a group.
Indeed, showing that forced grouping can exist by design. Part of NW:A is removing at least some of that need.
What Sovrath is getting at is the idea that none of us are forced to do anything in any game whatsover. I agree with his response only because, as an old bitter gamer, I'm tired of people complaining about games having core features they dislike -when they're the ones that bought the game.
The response seems pedantic, but after years of watching people compare PvP to getting raped (I'm not joking there) because it was "non-consensual" the distinction is merited.
I know you're aware of all of this, so yeah, grouping is 'forced' in NWA in the sense it is necessary to progress, but that is a feature, so don't buy the game.
I'm aware of what Sovrath is getting it. As I said quite early on it is not literally forced. It is effectively forced if one wants to play through the story of New World as it is now. That created an obvious pain point for the game that I expect NW:A will address.
As for PvP, if you don't like it play a game where you can opt out entirely or the PvP is confined to an easily avoidable region. If you play games where it can't be opted out of or easily avoided you a consenting to perpetual PvP susceptibility.
Its an interesting debate. I currently have been checking out the origins server of eq2, a game that is very gp heavy. They doubled down on it by nerfing the hell out of kill xp and quest xp, leaving gping as the only realistic option to lvling.
This was great for the first month the server was open, but now, as the fatigue and the "tweaks" they made crafting costs and harvesting of rares bite in, the population has dropped drastically. So the only effective way to lvl is to group with others to take on heroic content, but the population has dropped enough that (unless you play a tank), it's a significant wait to get in a gp. With the significant wait to gp, the population has dropped even more....etc.....
Wow seems to have hit the right type of cord with the new xpac (seems a bit too late imo, but that's another thing). By having gping, solo and scalable content, you kind of ensure there are things to do when you just can't get a gp. Games that you require a group to get shit done in are awesome, so long as the player population is healthy.
New World had a whole other series of problems, abandoning PC players in hope of striking console gold is just the latest. Gating stuff behind a forced gping requirement would be pretty low on the giant list I would have of things to fix in that game.
omg, there's no such thing as "forced grouping." If the game has grouping then consider it a "grouping game" and be done with it.
Now, I will say that getting a group together for one "quick" quest is not the answer. There should be several things in a row that require grouping so as to justify the effort it takes at getting people together.
Any game with content that can only be cleared by groups has an element of forced grouping. It is not literally forced as one need not do that content but it is effectively so for those that want to complete it.
Forced means you are doing something against your will.
If a game has a lot of grouping content then people have to assess whether or not that is something for them.
Otherwise it’s all “forced.” Forced grouping, forced solo, forced everything.
Or, these are the activities in the game that one has to do in order to progress.
omg, there's no such thing as "forced grouping." If the game has grouping then consider it a "grouping game" and be done with it.
Now, I will say that getting a group together for one "quick" quest is not the answer. There should be several things in a row that require grouping so as to justify the effort it takes at getting people together.
Any game with content that can only be cleared by groups has an element of forced grouping. It is not literally forced as one need not do that content but it is effectively so for those that want to complete it.
Forced means you are doing something against your will.
If a game has a lot of grouping content then people have to assess whether or not that is something for them.
Otherwise it’s all “forced.” Forced grouping, forced solo, forced everything.
Or, these are the activities in the game that one has to do in order to progress.
Yes, that's what it means. Being forced to group with others to clear content that I could clear solo if I was only allowed to access it by myself is against my will. Wargfoot provided an example of that in this very thread. It is especially annoying when a quest that mandates a group is stuck in the middle of a solo quest chain thus inhibiting one's overall progress through the story unless they concede to that out of place demand.
never mind, you get what I'm saying.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Comments
When you have a game like Destiny 2 though that locks content behind a group activity with no group finder (the last Gjallarhorn event as an example), that's not ok. You are locking out players who don't have a regular group and that's not ok. No where do any of these games say a requirement to play them is a regular group of friends.
Let me case in point this by calling out the opposite extreme of games where it's very easy to group: Darktide/Vermintide, Space Marine 2, Helldivers 2, Left 4 Dead, Aliens: Fire team Elite. The irony? None of these games are MMOs. All of them are designed around co-op play and "force" grouping although most of them will backfill a party with bots if not enough people are available at the point in time you're trying to start a game.
MMO developers need to take a hard look at the above games and try to understand how they can apply similar designs into their MMO to make grouping easier and more seamlessly integrated into the game. If someone has to spam zone chat with LGF messages to get a group you have failed to design a grouping friendly game. Nobody wants to do that. I should be able to log in and within 30 seconds pick an activity type I want to participate in and find a group. If that's not technically possible in your game you have not designed your game around being group friendly. You have rather built barriers to grouping in your game that is allegedly designed to be about grouping. Others have done it, so don't tell me it can't be done.
You cannot assume everyone playing your game has a cavalcade of real life friends they can call upon to form groups with. Most human beings don't play MMOs. I am 51 years old and I can count on one hand the number of personal friends I've had they have played MMOs. I have plenty of friends and family in my life, they just aren't MMO gamers if they're gamers at all. My guess my experience is not unique. I would venture to say my experience is actually normal and average. That means you need to design systems and tools in your game for players like me to find other players at the drop of a hat that are doing the same content.
No guilds aren't the answer. I've lost count of the guilds I've been in where I was just another of a pile of 5th wheels in the guild out soloing watching green guild spam go by. My typical guild experience is there's a core set of friends who have all aligned their schedules to play with one another and then there's everyone else. You can't break into this inner circle because their groups are always full.
I guess that's a big enough wall of text on the subject for now.
TLDR; yes you can force grouping for progression if you design your game around making grouping up easy.
CoH gives you the option, you can set the difficulty so that a solo player would have little or no chance to do the mission. There are also raids that require grouping and in some cases multiple groups to succeed, like with a Hami raid. You need over 40 players to do that.
However, you can set the difficulty down and progress just fine solo if you want to; so I want solo play and group play, but I don't want to *have* to group to make progress.
------------
2024: 47 years on the Net.
To some, it's just a few random players thrown together to overcome some obstacle the game put in their solo path.
To me, its about a group of adventurers working together and coordinating in order to vanquish the evil Mcguffin.
Neither is inherently wrong. But that's why i say not every game needs to cater to every player.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
um good? so what? If grouping is part of the game then you will group.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I can attest to being completely unwilling to raid in Everquest but being called by phone by guildees to log in now because the dragon spawned. That was 'forced' , I could not refuse them because it would have affected my relationship with guild members. So I 'forced' myself to play when I had zero desire and sometimes not even the time but had to drop some real life commitment to do so. This aspect of Everquest sucked. What was even more ridiculous was that I did it.
As I view MMORPGs as virtual worlds forced grouping is an undesirable mechanic especially if the storyline is blocked from completion by it.
I had been playing New world for about 9 months but when the Desert expansion came out I got pretty far into the story solo but the final story arc was gated behind a 5 person dungeon run.
As my soild was only 4 people at the time we took a few cracks at it with a random but never came close to clearing it.
So having leveled my gear up to max and decided the new seasonal passes were pretty useless and not fun so I left the game for good.
So their analysis is correct in my case at least.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
The best way to have grouping in MMOs is to introduce it slowly, so one grouping quest every five levels would be ideal. If you don't do that quest you miss out on some gear that will be useful in the next grouping quests, this continues until you get to raids.
Now you could make that gear only really useful when you group, the stats get a bonus when you do so. This assumes a game where multiple outfits can be quickly switched.
There are many ways you can mitigate the issue of solo and grouping but none solve the basic issue that you have two styles of play and that they will never sit well together. But like every other aspect of a MMO, what makes the genre so great is the diversity of gameplay making a gestalt which is far better than its ingredients.
CoH also has a quest that literally cannot be done without a large group. The Hami raid requires over 40 people and rewards you with an enhancement that cannot be gotten any other way. Is that "forced" grouping? No, because you could do the whole rest of the game without that enhancement. So it was optional.
Any time a game requires a certain playstyle, like PvP or grouping, it has limited the audience for that game. I like PvP and I like grouping, but if I *have* to do it to play the game, I probably will skip that game. I want the option to PvP if and when I want to, and to group if and when I want to.
Of course it is the game dev's decision: if they decide that players *must* PvP or group to play, then that is fine, Just don't expect as big of a market for that game.
edit: I'd put crafting in the same category, what if a game required you to make all your own armor and weapons?
------------
2024: 47 years on the Net.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
I'm not aware of any MMO that requires the player to craft something themselves or else they cannot play the game any further.
------------
2024: 47 years on the Net.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
If they want to make it required then they have to know that they are limiting their market size to people who want that.
------------
2024: 47 years on the Net.
It's my way or the high way... Which is why I don't play very many MMORPGS these days, at least not for very long.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Yes, and grouping with others when it is
Yes, that's what it means. Being forced to group with others to clear content that I could clear solo if I was only allowed to access it by myself is against my will. Wargfoot provided an example of that in this very thread. It is especially annoying when a quest that mandates a group is stuck in the middle of a solo quest chain thus inhibiting one's overall progress through the story unless they concede to that out of place demand.
I'm aware of what Sovrath is getting it. As I said quite early on it is not literally forced. It is effectively forced if one wants to play through the story of New World as it is now. That created an obvious pain point for the game that I expect NW:A will address.
As for PvP, if you don't like it play a game where you can opt out entirely or the PvP is confined to an easily avoidable region. If you play games where it can't be opted out of or easily avoided you a consenting to perpetual PvP susceptibility.
This was great for the first month the server was open, but now, as the fatigue and the "tweaks" they made crafting costs and harvesting of rares bite in, the population has dropped drastically. So the only effective way to lvl is to group with others to take on heroic content, but the population has dropped enough that (unless you play a tank), it's a significant wait to get in a gp. With the significant wait to gp, the population has dropped even more....etc.....
Wow seems to have hit the right type of cord with the new xpac (seems a bit too late imo, but that's another thing). By having gping, solo and scalable content, you kind of ensure there are things to do when you just can't get a gp. Games that you require a group to get shit done in are awesome, so long as the player population is healthy.
New World had a whole other series of problems, abandoning PC players in hope of striking console gold is just the latest. Gating stuff behind a forced gping requirement would be pretty low on the giant list I would have of things to fix in that game.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo